Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #121420 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2019-01-30 19:21 -0500 |
| Last post | 2019-02-07 10:31 -0500 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 91 — 10 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.sys.mac.system
How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-01-30 19:21 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Ed Norton <norton@nowhere.com> - 2019-01-30 19:38 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-01-31 04:37 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-01-31 09:12 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-01-31 15:41 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-01-31 22:55 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-01 08:42 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-01-31 12:48 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Ed Norton <norton@nowhere.com> - 2019-01-31 13:29 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Elden <usenet@moondog.org> - 2019-01-31 14:24 -0600
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-01 05:24 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-01-31 13:41 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-01-31 13:50 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-01-31 14:30 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-01 05:26 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-01 08:47 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-01 10:57 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-01 16:18 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-01 15:26 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-01 21:03 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-01 16:12 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 21:57 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-02 11:23 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-02 10:24 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-03 05:12 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-03 19:14 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 21:56 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-01 18:34 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-01 19:49 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 17:05 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-01 15:29 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 22:02 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-01 18:37 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-01-31 09:14 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Percival John Hackworth <pjh@nanoworks.com> - 2019-01-31 07:59 -0800
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-01-31 11:04 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-01 05:28 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-01-31 12:49 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 03:21 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Ed Norton <norton@nowhere.com> - 2019-02-01 04:49 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-01 10:57 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 17:02 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-01 16:16 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 17:02 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2019-02-01 12:56 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-01 13:05 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2019-02-01 13:34 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-01 13:48 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2019-02-03 12:01 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 18:51 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-01 15:27 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.invalid> - 2019-02-01 20:52 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-02 08:09 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-01 21:05 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 22:01 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-02 08:14 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-02 16:40 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-02 18:36 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-03 01:23 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-03 08:54 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-03 19:23 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Ed Norton <norton@nowhere.com> - 2019-02-03 14:49 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-03 22:23 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-03 17:16 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-03 22:51 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-04 08:38 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-04 12:12 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-04 18:00 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-04 13:10 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-02 11:43 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-03 05:13 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-03 19:15 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-04 00:41 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-04 11:25 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-04 13:15 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-04 15:28 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-04 16:17 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-04 16:40 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-04 18:07 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-06 19:53 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-06 20:01 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-07 14:00 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-07 14:08 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-07 14:09 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2019-02-07 14:10 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-08 02:41 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2019-02-08 02:39 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2019-02-03 19:44 -0500
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 22:00 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2019-02-01 22:02 +0000
Re: How to Securely Delete a Data File- RESOLVED Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> - 2019-02-07 10:31 -0500
Page 4 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 Next page →
| From | Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-03 19:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <gbotdgF38i2U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #121693 |
Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: > On 2/2/19 8:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >> On 2019-02-02, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>> On 2/2/19 11:40 AM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>> >>>> All Mac users should be using FileVault. With FileVault everything on >>>> the drive is encrypted, and there is no need for secure delete. >>>> >>> With File Vault on, I understand that I have to enter the password when >>> the computer starts. >>> >>> But does "start" mean only when I hit the start button and power my iMac >>> on and it boots- >> >> Yes. >> >>> or does the pw also have to be entered on wakeup from >>> sleep or when the screen blanks from inactivity? >> >> No, that's what System Preferences > Security > General > Require >> password after sleep or screen saver begins is for. And all Mac users >> should do that as well - otherwise anyone can walk up to your computer >> and access all of your files. > > My iMac is used in my home office so there's no walk-up access issue. Until there is. Bad idea. > But I usually come back to it a dozen or more times a day. I had thought > that FileVault required the PW to be entered on wakeup too and didn't > want to have to enter my strong, lengthy PW each time. Nope. > That's why I created the encrypted sparsebundle to secure my > confidential files. I leave it mounted all the time when I'm at home and > only unmount it when I leave the house. Another bad idea. > If I change to FileVault, is there a command to lock the computer- or > would I need to shut down or reboot to secure the computer? Is there a command to lock a Mac? Did you really just ask that? -- E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead. JR
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Ed Norton <norton@nowhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-03 14:49 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <0001HW.D87CAFDC09AF8F51B02919BF@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #121708 |
On Sun, 3 Feb 2019 14:23:28 -0500, Jolly Roger wrote (in article <gbotdgF38i2U1@mid.individual.net>): > Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >> On 2/2/19 8:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>> On 2019-02-02, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>> On 2/2/19 11:40 AM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All Mac users should be using FileVault. With FileVault everything on >>>>> the drive is encrypted, and there is no need for secure delete. >>>>> >>>> With File Vault on, I understand that I have to enter the password when >>>> the computer starts. >>>> >>>> But does "start" mean only when I hit the start button and power my iMac >>>> on and it boots- >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>>> or does the pw also have to be entered on wakeup from >>>> sleep or when the screen blanks from inactivity? >>> >>> No, that's what System Preferences > Security > General > Require >>> password after sleep or screen saver begins is for. And all Mac users >>> should do that as well - otherwise anyone can walk up to your computer >>> and access all of your files. >> >> My iMac is used in my home office so there's no walk-up access issue. > > Until there is. Bad idea. I agree. Unless there is nothing on there you would mind your relatives, friends, the law, etc. browsing through if you should keel over. In which case why do you need an encrypted image anyway? > >> But I usually come back to it a dozen or more times a day. I had thought >> that FileVault required the PW to be entered on wakeup too and didn't >> want to have to enter my strong, lengthy PW each time. > > Nope. > >> That's why I created the encrypted sparsebundle to secure my >> confidential files. I leave it mounted all the time when I'm at home and >> only unmount it when I leave the house. > > Another bad idea. I leave one mounted also but password protect wake from sleep and reboot and have the computer set to sleep after x minutes of inactivity. Otherwise I'd be mounting and remounting too often. Easy enough to do but it breaks up your work flow. I have found, however, that some programs prevent sleep. I haven't figured out how to get around that one. I don't use FileVault. Inb4 "You're Stupid" :) > >> If I change to FileVault, is there a command to lock the computer- or >> would I need to shut down or reboot to secure the computer? > > Is there a command to lock a Mac? Did you really just ask that? > > -- Ed
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-03 22:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <gbp7v0F5ghpU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #121714 |
Ed Norton <norton@nowhere.com> wrote: > On Sun, 3 Feb 2019 14:23:28 -0500, Jolly Roger wrote > (in article <gbotdgF38i2U1@mid.individual.net>): > >> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>> On 2/2/19 8:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>> On 2019-02-02, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>>> On 2/2/19 11:40 AM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All Mac users should be using FileVault. With FileVault everything on >>>>>> the drive is encrypted, and there is no need for secure delete. >>>>>> >>>>> With File Vault on, I understand that I have to enter the password when >>>>> the computer starts. >>>>> >>>>> But does "start" mean only when I hit the start button and power my iMac >>>>> on and it boots- >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>>> or does the pw also have to be entered on wakeup from >>>>> sleep or when the screen blanks from inactivity? >>>> >>>> No, that's what System Preferences > Security > General > Require >>>> password after sleep or screen saver begins is for. And all Mac users >>>> should do that as well - otherwise anyone can walk up to your computer >>>> and access all of your files. >>> >>> My iMac is used in my home office so there's no walk-up access issue. >> >> Until there is. Bad idea. > > I agree. Unless there is nothing on there you would mind your > relatives, friends, the law, etc. browsing through if you should keel > over. In which case why do you need an encrypted image anyway? Indeed. And the law has a long and sorted record of using anything and everything they can against even the most innocent people. Anyone who voluntarily gives law enforcement any information at all without s warrant is a fool. <https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE> >>> That's why I created the encrypted sparsebundle to secure my >>> confidential files. I leave it mounted all the time when I'm at home and >>> only unmount it when I leave the house. >> >> Another bad idea. > > I leave one mounted also but password protect wake from sleep and > reboot and have the computer set to sleep after x minutes of > inactivity. Otherwise I'd be mounting and remounting too often. I have an encrypted image, but only mount it when needed. I eject it right after I’m done. An automated AppleScript ejects it when no documents are open on it in case I forget. > I don't use FileVault. Inb4 "You're Stupid" :) Everyone should, IMHO. -- E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead. JR
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-03 17:16 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <q37p7q$vi1$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #121708 |
On 2/3/19 2:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: > Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >> On 2/2/19 8:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>> On 2019-02-02, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>> On 2/2/19 11:40 AM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>> >>>>> All Mac users should be using FileVault. With FileVault everything on >>>>> the drive is encrypted, and there is no need for secure delete. >>>>> >>>> With File Vault on, I understand that I have to enter the password when >>>> the computer starts. >>>> >>>> But does "start" mean only when I hit the start button and power my iMac >>>> on and it boots- >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>>> or does the pw also have to be entered on wakeup from >>>> sleep or when the screen blanks from inactivity? >>> >>> No, that's what System Preferences > Security > General > Require >>> password after sleep or screen saver begins is for. And all Mac users >>> should do that as well - otherwise anyone can walk up to your computer >>> and access all of your files. >> >> My iMac is used in my home office so there's no walk-up access issue. > > Until there is. Bad idea. > >> But I usually come back to it a dozen or more times a day. I had thought >> that FileVault required the PW to be entered on wakeup too and didn't >> want to have to enter my strong, lengthy PW each time. > > Nope. > >> That's why I created the encrypted sparsebundle to secure my >> confidential files. I leave it mounted all the time when I'm at home and >> only unmount it when I leave the house. > > Another bad idea. > >> If I change to FileVault, is there a command to lock the computer- or >> would I need to shut down or reboot to secure the computer? > > Is there a command to lock a Mac? Did you really just ask that? > I did, because I don't know the answer. So can I lock down a FileVaulted Mac via mouse or keyboard command- or do I need to power it off or restart? I'd also add that there's no one in the house besides my wife and myself- so as I said above, there is no walk up issue. As for the encrypted sparsebundle scheme which I've been using as long as I can remember with no intrusions, it's really not a bad idea. If I could again securely delete a file, it would still be the ideal security plan for me.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-03 22:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <gbp9ilF5rnuU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #121729 |
Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: > On 2/3/19 2:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>> On 2/2/19 8:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>> On 2019-02-02, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>>> On 2/2/19 11:40 AM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> All Mac users should be using FileVault. With FileVault everything on >>>>>> the drive is encrypted, and there is no need for secure delete. >>>>>> >>>>> With File Vault on, I understand that I have to enter the password when >>>>> the computer starts. >>>>> >>>>> But does "start" mean only when I hit the start button and power my iMac >>>>> on and it boots- >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>>> or does the pw also have to be entered on wakeup from >>>>> sleep or when the screen blanks from inactivity? >>>> >>>> No, that's what System Preferences > Security > General > Require >>>> password after sleep or screen saver begins is for. And all Mac users >>>> should do that as well - otherwise anyone can walk up to your computer >>>> and access all of your files. >>> >>> My iMac is used in my home office so there's no walk-up access issue. >> >> Until there is. Bad idea. > >>> But I usually come back to it a dozen or more times a day. I had thought >>> that FileVault required the PW to be entered on wakeup too and didn't >>> want to have to enter my strong, lengthy PW each time. >> >> Nope. >> >>> That's why I created the encrypted sparsebundle to secure my >>> confidential files. I leave it mounted all the time when I'm at home and >>> only unmount it when I leave the house. >> >> Another bad idea. >> >>> If I change to FileVault, is there a command to lock the computer- or >>> would I need to shut down or reboot to secure the computer? >> >> Is there a command to lock a Mac? Did you really just ask that? >> > I did, because I don't know the answer. > > So can I lock down a FileVaulted Mac via mouse or keyboard command- or > do I need to power it off or restart? When your screen is locked, nobody can access your data. Set the computer to lock the screen automatically when you are away from the computer. You can also lock the screen manually. <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202824> > I'd also add that there's no one in the house besides my wife and > myself- so as I said above, there is no walk up issue. Until it is. One can think of all sorts of scenarios where someone might be in your house and be able to walk up to your computer and access everything in it because you stupidly decided not to lock it. A repair man, a cop, an intruder, you name it. > As for the encrypted sparsebundle scheme which I've been using as long > as I can remember with no intrusions, it's really not a bad idea. Not locking/ejecting it when you are away is a bad idea. > If I > could again securely delete a file, it would still be the ideal security > plan for me. Encrypt the whole drive and there is no need for that. -- E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead. JR
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 08:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <q39f9h$9dd$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #121731 |
On 2/3/19 5:51 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: > Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >> On 2/3/19 2:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>> On 2/2/19 8:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>> On 2019-02-02, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>>>> On 2/2/19 11:40 AM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All Mac users should be using FileVault. With FileVault everything on >>>>>>> the drive is encrypted, and there is no need for secure delete. >>>>>>> >>>>>> With File Vault on, I understand that I have to enter the password when >>>>>> the computer starts. >>>>>> >>>>>> But does "start" mean only when I hit the start button and power my iMac >>>>>> on and it boots- >>>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>>> or does the pw also have to be entered on wakeup from >>>>>> sleep or when the screen blanks from inactivity? >>>>> >>>>> No, that's what System Preferences > Security > General > Require >>>>> password after sleep or screen saver begins is for. And all Mac users >>>>> should do that as well - otherwise anyone can walk up to your computer >>>>> and access all of your files. >>>> >>>> My iMac is used in my home office so there's no walk-up access issue. >>> >>> Until there is. Bad idea. >> >>>> But I usually come back to it a dozen or more times a day. I had thought >>>> that FileVault required the PW to be entered on wakeup too and didn't >>>> want to have to enter my strong, lengthy PW each time. >>> >>> Nope. >>> >>>> That's why I created the encrypted sparsebundle to secure my >>>> confidential files. I leave it mounted all the time when I'm at home and >>>> only unmount it when I leave the house. >>> >>> Another bad idea. >>> >>>> If I change to FileVault, is there a command to lock the computer- or >>>> would I need to shut down or reboot to secure the computer? >>> >>> Is there a command to lock a Mac? Did you really just ask that? >>> >> I did, because I don't know the answer. >> >> So can I lock down a FileVaulted Mac via mouse or keyboard command- or >> do I need to power it off or restart? > > When your screen is locked, nobody can access your data. Set the computer > to lock the screen automatically when you are away from the computer. You > can also lock the screen manually. > > <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236> > > <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202824> > >> I'd also add that there's no one in the house besides my wife and >> myself- so as I said above, there is no walk up issue. > > Until it is. One can think of all sorts of scenarios where someone might be > in your house and be able to walk up to your computer and access everything > in it because you stupidly decided not to lock it. A repair man, a cop, an > intruder, you name it. > >> As for the encrypted sparsebundle scheme which I've been using as long >> as I can remember with no intrusions, it's really not a bad idea. > > Not locking/ejecting it when you are away is a bad idea. > >> If I >> could again securely delete a file, it would still be the ideal security >> plan for me. > > Encrypt the whole drive and there is no need for that. > OK, thanks for the detailed responses. I'll give it a try....
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 12:12 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <q39rqc$4t1$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #121731 |
On 2/3/19 5:51 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: > Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >> On 2/3/19 2:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>> On 2/2/19 8:23 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>> On 2019-02-02, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>>>> On 2/2/19 11:40 AM, Jolly Roger wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All Mac users should be using FileVault. With FileVault everything on >>>>>>> the drive is encrypted, and there is no need for secure delete. >>>>>>> >>>>>> With File Vault on, I understand that I have to enter the password when >>>>>> the computer starts. >>>>>> >>>>>> But does "start" mean only when I hit the start button and power my iMac >>>>>> on and it boots- >>>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>>> or does the pw also have to be entered on wakeup from >>>>>> sleep or when the screen blanks from inactivity? >>>>> >>>>> No, that's what System Preferences > Security > General > Require >>>>> password after sleep or screen saver begins is for. And all Mac users >>>>> should do that as well - otherwise anyone can walk up to your computer >>>>> and access all of your files. >>>> >>>> My iMac is used in my home office so there's no walk-up access issue. >>> >>> Until there is. Bad idea. >> >>>> But I usually come back to it a dozen or more times a day. I had thought >>>> that FileVault required the PW to be entered on wakeup too and didn't >>>> want to have to enter my strong, lengthy PW each time. >>> >>> Nope. >>> >>>> That's why I created the encrypted sparsebundle to secure my >>>> confidential files. I leave it mounted all the time when I'm at home and >>>> only unmount it when I leave the house. >>> >>> Another bad idea. >>> >>>> If I change to FileVault, is there a command to lock the computer- or >>>> would I need to shut down or reboot to secure the computer? >>> >>> Is there a command to lock a Mac? Did you really just ask that? >>> >> I did, because I don't know the answer. >> >> So can I lock down a FileVaulted Mac via mouse or keyboard command- or >> do I need to power it off or restart? > > When your screen is locked, nobody can access your data. Set the computer > to lock the screen automatically when you are away from the computer. You > can also lock the screen manually. > > <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236> > > <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202824> > >> I'd also add that there's no one in the house besides my wife and >> myself- so as I said above, there is no walk up issue. > > Until it is. One can think of all sorts of scenarios where someone might be > in your house and be able to walk up to your computer and access everything > in it because you stupidly decided not to lock it. A repair man, a cop, an > intruder, you name it. > >> As for the encrypted sparsebundle scheme which I've been using as long >> as I can remember with no intrusions, it's really not a bad idea. > > Not locking/ejecting it when you are away is a bad idea. > >> If I >> could again securely delete a file, it would still be the ideal security >> plan for me. > > Encrypt the whole drive and there is no need for that. > What do I do with the encrypted sparsebundle before turning on FileVault? Leave it mounted, unmounted; what happens to it/what do I do with it after FV encrypts my HD? -- Ever notice the shortage of "armed law-abiding citizen” victim tragedy stories in the news?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 18:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <gbrcumFjhctU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #121797 |
On 2019-02-04, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: > > What do I do with the encrypted sparsebundle before turning on > FileVault? > > Leave it mounted, unmounted; what happens to it/what do I do with it > after FV encrypts my HD? Actually nothing changes with respect to that. It's just another file on the system. You can continue to use it as you see fit. I keep sensitive information in one that stays unmounted the majority of the time. If someone manages to get into my account while the computer is locked, that information is still safe. It's always good to have multiple layers of security. -- E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead. JR
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 13:10 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <q39v78$r28$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #121800 |
On 2/4/19 1:00 PM, Jolly Roger wrote: > On 2019-02-04, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >> >> What do I do with the encrypted sparsebundle before turning on >> FileVault? >> >> Leave it mounted, unmounted; what happens to it/what do I do with it >> after FV encrypts my HD? > > Actually nothing changes with respect to that. It's just another file on > the system. You can continue to use it as you see fit. I keep sensitive > information in one that stays unmounted the majority of the time. If > someone manages to get into my account while the computer is locked, > that information is still safe. It's always good to have multiple layers > of security. > Thanks for all the help! I'll turn it on tonight and let it encrypt overnight. -W.G.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-02 11:43 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <020220191143050835%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #121618 |
In article <q3453u$fbs$1@news.albasani.net>, Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: > > > >> Way to go Tim........great job doing away with such a simple, basic, > >> important feature! > > > > It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive. > > > That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. you should get one. they're much faster. > And I suspect most folks > are still using spinning hard drives. nearly all macs sold in the past several years have an ssd. > Seems to me it would be simple enough to leave the secure delete feature > in though disable it for SSDs. it was of little benefit even for a hard drive.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-03 05:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnq5cu3t.kjf.g.kreme@Snow.local> |
| In reply to | #121618 |
In message <q3453u$fbs$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: > On 2/1/19 4:05 PM, Lewis wrote: >> In message <q32a2o$uu9$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>> On 1/30/19 7:21 PM, Wade Garrett wrote: >>>> I inadvertently created a copy of confidential Pages document that >>>> resides on an encrypted sparsebundle on my spinning Macintosh HD (Mojave >>>> 10.14.3). >>>> >>>> How can I securely delete the copy? >>>> >>>> I guess I could just drag it to the trash bin, empty the trash bin and >>>> then wipe the free space on the drive- but that seems like time >>>> consuming over-kill. >> >>> OP here- Thanks for the inputs, guys. >> >>> So..........it looks like there's no easy, graceful way to do it. >> >> Yes there is. Use FileVault and simply delete the file. >> >>> Way to go Tim........great job doing away with such a simple, basic, >>> important feature! >> >> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive. >> > That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most folks > are still using spinning hard drives. You'd be wrong. > Seems to me it would be simple enough to leave the secure delete feature > in though disable it for SSDs. I'm sure Apple considered it, and decide that anyone who cared about security would encrypt their drives. -- IT WOULD BE A MILLION TO ONE CHANCE, said Death. EXACTLY A MILLION TO ONE CHANCE. 'Oh,' said the Bursar, intensely relieved. 'Oh dear. What a shame.' --Eric
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-03 19:15 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <JcWdnW4RAfixGcrBnZ2dnUU7-emdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #121687 |
On 2019-02-03 00:13, Lewis wrote:
> In message <q3453u$fbs$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:
>> On 2/1/19 4:05 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <q32a2o$uu9$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/19 7:21 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>>> I inadvertently created a copy of confidential Pages document that
>>>>> resides on an encrypted sparsebundle on my spinning Macintosh HD (Mojave
>>>>> 10.14.3).
>>>>>
>>>>> How can I securely delete the copy?
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I could just drag it to the trash bin, empty the trash bin and
>>>>> then wipe the free space on the drive- but that seems like time
>>>>> consuming over-kill.
>>>
>>>> OP here- Thanks for the inputs, guys.
>>>
>>>> So..........it looks like there's no easy, graceful way to do it.
>>>
>>> Yes there is. Use FileVault and simply delete the file.
>>>
>>>> Way to go Tim........great job doing away with such a simple, basic,
>>>> important feature!
>>>
>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive.
>>>
>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most folks
>> are still using spinning hard drives.
>
> You'd be wrong.
Got figures to support that, do you?
--
"2/3 of Donald Trump's wives were immigrants. Proof that we
need immigrants to do jobs that most Americans wouldn't do."
- unknown protester
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 00:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnq5f2hr.16nk.g.kreme@Snow.local> |
| In reply to | #121767 |
In message <JcWdnW4RAfixGcrBnZ2dnUU7-emdnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote: > On 2019-02-03 00:13, Lewis wrote: >> In message <q3453u$fbs$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>> On 2/1/19 4:05 PM, Lewis wrote: >>>> In message <q32a2o$uu9$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote: >>>>> On 1/30/19 7:21 PM, Wade Garrett wrote: >>>>>> I inadvertently created a copy of confidential Pages document that >>>>>> resides on an encrypted sparsebundle on my spinning Macintosh HD (Mojave >>>>>> 10.14.3). >>>>>> >>>>>> How can I securely delete the copy? >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess I could just drag it to the trash bin, empty the trash bin and >>>>>> then wipe the free space on the drive- but that seems like time >>>>>> consuming over-kill. >>>> >>>>> OP here- Thanks for the inputs, guys. >>>> >>>>> So..........it looks like there's no easy, graceful way to do it. >>>> >>>> Yes there is. Use FileVault and simply delete the file. >>>> >>>>> Way to go Tim........great job doing away with such a simple, basic, >>>>> important feature! >>>> >>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive. >>>> >>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most folks >>> are still using spinning hard drives. >> >> You'd be wrong. > Got figures to support that, do you? Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly. -- >You are forgetting something: the Nazgul are immune to non-magical weapons. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 11:25 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ccWdnULGyPfv-sXBnZ2dnUU7-eVi4p2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #121768 |
On 2019-02-03 19:41, Lewis wrote:
> In message <JcWdnW4RAfixGcrBnZ2dnUU7-emdnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2019-02-03 00:13, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <q3453u$fbs$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2/1/19 4:05 PM, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <q32a2o$uu9$1@news.albasani.net> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/30/19 7:21 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
>>>>>>> I inadvertently created a copy of confidential Pages document that
>>>>>>> resides on an encrypted sparsebundle on my spinning Macintosh HD (Mojave
>>>>>>> 10.14.3).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How can I securely delete the copy?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess I could just drag it to the trash bin, empty the trash bin and
>>>>>>> then wipe the free space on the drive- but that seems like time
>>>>>>> consuming over-kill.
>>>>>
>>>>>> OP here- Thanks for the inputs, guys.
>>>>>
>>>>>> So..........it looks like there's no easy, graceful way to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes there is. Use FileVault and simply delete the file.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Way to go Tim........great job doing away with such a simple, basic,
>>>>>> important feature!
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive.
>>>>>
>>>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most folks
>>>> are still using spinning hard drives.
>>>
>>> You'd be wrong.
>
>> Got figures to support that, do you?
>
> Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold
> with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by
> Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly.
Got links to support that?
--
"2/3 of Donald Trump's wives were immigrants. Proof that we
need immigrants to do jobs that most Americans wouldn't do."
- unknown protester
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 13:15 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <040220191315394774%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #121796 |
In article <ccWdnULGyPfv-sXBnZ2dnUU7-eVi4p2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive. > >>>>> > >>>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most folks > >>>> are still using spinning hard drives. > >>> > >>> You'd be wrong. > > > >> Got figures to support that, do you? > > > > Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold > > with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by > > Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly. > > Got links to support that? apple earnings calls.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 15:28 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <75ydnQMO6PnKPcXBnZ2dnUU7-bOdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #121803 |
On 2019-02-04 13:15, nospam wrote:
> In article <ccWdnULGyPfv-sXBnZ2dnUU7-eVi4p2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most folks
>>>>>> are still using spinning hard drives.
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd be wrong.
>>>
>>>> Got figures to support that, do you?
>>>
>>> Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold
>>> with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by
>>> Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly.
>>
>> Got links to support that?
>
> apple earnings calls.
>
Right. No actual facts.
--
"2/3 of Donald Trump's wives were immigrants. Proof that we
need immigrants to do jobs that most Americans wouldn't do."
- unknown protester
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 16:17 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <040220191617215786%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #121806 |
In article <75ydnQMO6PnKPcXBnZ2dnUU7-bOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most > >>>>>> folks > >>>>>> are still using spinning hard drives. > >>>>> > >>>>> You'd be wrong. > >>> > >>>> Got figures to support that, do you? > >>> > >>> Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold > >>> with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by > >>> Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly. > >> > >> Got links to support that? > > > > apple earnings calls. > > > Right. No actual facts. thats as factual as it gets. making false statements during an earnings call is a really, really bad idea, one with very severe legal consequences.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 16:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <WrOdnXwt0bqsLMXBnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #121807 |
On 2019-02-04 16:17, nospam wrote:
> In article <75ydnQMO6PnKPcXBnZ2dnUU7-bOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most
>>>>>>>> folks
>>>>>>>> are still using spinning hard drives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You'd be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Got figures to support that, do you?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold
>>>>> with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by
>>>>> Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly.
>>>>
>>>> Got links to support that?
>>>
>>> apple earnings calls.
>>>
>> Right. No actual facts.
>
> thats as factual as it gets.
>
> making false statements during an earnings call is a really, really bad
> idea, one with very severe legal consequences.
I meant Lewis, you, have not presented facts that support the statement
above.
--
"2/3 of Donald Trump's wives were immigrants. Proof that we
need immigrants to do jobs that most Americans wouldn't do."
- unknown protester
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-04 18:07 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <040220191807000463%nospam@nospam.invalid> |
| In reply to | #121808 |
In article <WrOdnXwt0bqsLMXBnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most > >>>>>>>> folks are still using spinning hard drives. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> You'd be wrong. > >>>>> > >>>>>> Got figures to support that, do you? > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold > >>>>> with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by > >>>>> Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly. > >>>> > >>>> Got links to support that? > >>> > >>> apple earnings calls. > >>> > >> Right. No actual facts. > > > > thats as factual as it gets. > > > > making false statements during an earnings call is a really, really bad > > idea, one with very severe legal consequences. > > I meant Lewis, you, have not presented facts that support the statement > above. both of us have, that being *apple*. it's clear you don't want facts.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-02-06 19:53 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ofSdnTFzN-HgHMbBnZ2dnUU7-XNh4p2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #121814 |
On 2019-02-04 18:07, nospam wrote:
> In article <WrOdnXwt0bqsLMXBnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is not a simple feature with an SSD drive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That may be so...but I don't have an SSD drive. And I suspect most
>>>>>>>>>> folks are still using spinning hard drives.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You'd be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Got figures to support that, do you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, The sales of computers from Apple with SSDs exceed the number sold
>>>>>>> with hard drives over the last decade. The install base, as reported by
>>>>>>> Apple versus the sales over the last decade show that clearly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Got links to support that?
>>>>>
>>>>> apple earnings calls.
>>>>>
>>>> Right. No actual facts.
>>>
>>> thats as factual as it gets.
>>>
>>> making false statements during an earnings call is a really, really bad
>>> idea, one with very severe legal consequences.
>>
>> I meant Lewis, you, have not presented facts that support the statement
>> above.
>
> both of us have, that being *apple*.
>
> it's clear you don't want facts.
It's clear you can't locate them.
--
"2/3 of Donald Trump's wives were immigrants. Proof that we
need immigrants to do jobs that most Americans wouldn't do."
- unknown protester
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
Page 4 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 Next page →
Back to top | Article view | comp.sys.mac.system
csiph-web