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NAS suggestions

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  NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 15:48 -0500
    Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-01 21:07 +0000
      Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 01:13 -0500
        Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-02 16:12 +0000
          Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 12:47 -0500
            Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-02 18:06 +0000
              Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 13:47 -0500
                Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-02 14:03 -0500
          Re: NAS suggestions Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2015-03-05 06:34 -0500
            Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-05 12:54 +0000
              Re: NAS suggestions Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2015-03-05 07:59 -0500
                Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-05 13:22 +0000
                  Re: NAS suggestions Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2015-03-05 08:33 -0500
                    Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-05 14:38 +0000
              Re: NAS suggestions Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-05 19:00 +0000
          Re: NAS suggestions Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2015-03-05 07:57 -0500
            Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-05 09:01 -0500
              Re: NAS suggestions Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2015-03-05 11:58 -0500
                Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-05 12:18 -0500
                Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-05 17:48 +0000
            Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-05 14:06 +0000
              Re: NAS suggestions Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> - 2015-03-05 11:55 -0500
                Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-05 17:46 +0000
        Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-02 11:35 -0500
          Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 12:50 -0500
          Re: NAS suggestions JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-03-02 14:11 -0500
            Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-02 19:13 +0000
              Re: NAS suggestions JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-03-02 14:49 -0500
                Re: NAS suggestions Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-03 09:31 +1300
                  Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 15:58 -0500
                    Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-02 17:32 -0500
                      Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 07:18 -0500
                        Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-03 12:23 -0500
                          Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 14:30 -0500
                            Re: NAS suggestions Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-04 09:07 +1300
                            Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-03 15:05 -0500
                    Re: NAS suggestions nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-02 18:05 -0500
                    Re: NAS suggestions Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-03 13:07 +1300
                Re: NAS suggestions Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-03-03 00:55 +0000
            Re: NAS suggestions nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-02 14:14 -0500
            Re: NAS suggestions Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-03-02 14:43 -0500
            Re: NAS suggestions Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-03 08:56 +1300
            Re: NAS suggestions Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 15:56 -0500

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#70507

On 2015-03-05, Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 11:12:44 -0500, Jolly Roger wrote
> (in article <cljgfsF7fubU1@mid.individual.net>):
>
>> I have a Drobo S with 17 TB of hard drives installed
>
> Just curious.  Is that 17 TB of redundant storage (34 TB actual)?  I'm 
> trying to figure out how you get 34 TB in 5 bays :)  

No, it's a Drobo S currently with two 4 TB drives and three 3 TB drives
installed for a total of 17 TB, formatted as a single 17.59 TB partition
with dual redundancy, so I can lose two drives without losing access to
any data. According to Drobo Dashboard, that comes out to 15.46 TB
actual capacity, with 8.13 TB available for data, 1.81 TB reserved for
expansion, 5.49 TB used for protection, and 14.32 GB of overhead. I'm
currently using only 6.36 TB of available capacity.

> Also the Drobo 
> reviews on Amazon are quite mixed with a lot of _really_bad_ 
> experiences including total data loss.  Not gainsaying your experience, 
> but for that much money I'd expect at least better product support 
> reviews.

Which model(s) are the reviews about, specifically? Were people using
them in unsupported configurations? Context does make a difference.
Older models were more problematic than current models. I've owned an
original Drobo (revision 2) and this Drobo S, and find this model (even
though it is old and not sold anymore) to be much faster and less
problematic.  The problems I had with the original Drobo were better
classified as annoyances, and are non-existent with the Drobo S. I never
lost data with either one. 

> I've been tempted to replace my Nobro rat's nest solution many times 
> but can never justify the expense, especially with these mixed reviews.

Oh, so "Nobro" must mean "some standard "dumb" RAID array", right? It
would help if you'd just say what you are using, you know. ; )

> The last one that caught my eye was the Thecus N4310 
> (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/16/review_thecus_n4310_4_bay_nas_b
> ox/?page=1) but the cost of all those new drives put me off.  Plus it's 
> still not big enough to take all the data on my existing drives (~ 12 
> TB).

"Dumb" RAID array solutions like this are nowhere near the Drobo in
terms of ease of use and problem-free recovery from drive failures. Some
obvious differences off the top of my head:

With "dumb" RAID arrays:

You typically have to install drives into drive sleds rather than just
sliding the bare drive into the unit as you would with a Drobo.

You often have much less freedom regarding mixing different drive types
and sizes - with the Drobo, you can use any combination you want.

You typically cannot re-arrange drives after formatting. With a Drobo,
you can move drives around all you want without reformatting.

You typically cannot add drives to the array without a whole lot of
hassle, and possibly even reformatting the array. With a Drobo, you
literally just slide a new drive into the unit and you are done.

You almost always have to learn fine technical details and limitations
of different RAID levels to use them effectively. With Drobos, you
select between two protection levels: single disk redundancy or dual
disk redundancy, and the Drobo automatically determines the best
algorithm to protect from drive failure depending on the number of
drives that are inserted.

Thin provisioning (the ability to create volumes much larger than actual
available space so you can easily grow them later on by adding more or
bigger drives) is often much less flexible, or not supported at all.

You sometimes have a "virtual hot spare" option, where you can designate
one drive to be a "hot spare" which sits unused, waiting for a failure
to happen. That's wasted drive space. With a Drobo, there's no need for
that, and all drives are always utilized.

Last, but not least, when a drive failure happens, you are typically
stuck again learning the finer technical details about the particular
RAID level you are using and stuck dealing with recovery all on your own
with little assistance from the dumb RAID array. With a Drobo, you
literally pull out the bad hard drive, slide in any new/replacement
drive, and walk away - without losing access to any of your data while
the recovery takes place in the background.

There are other advantages that I'm sure I haven't mentioned. While
there are a few products out there that compete with the Drobo, the vast
majority of RAID arrays aren't even in the same ball park.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#70522

On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 09:06:18 -0500, Jolly Roger wrote
(in article <clr66qF75tsU5@mid.individual.net>):

> Which model(s) are the reviews about, specifically?

Same as yours, I believe.

  http://www.amazon.com/Drobo-Beyond-FireWire-Storage-Backup/dp/B004CRIL
FI


> Oh, so "Nobro" must mean "some standard "dumb" RAID array", right? It
> would help if you'd just say what you are using, you know. ; )

OK.  I just have pairs of external desktop drives attached to the 
Mac-Mini.  I originally tried Soft RAID but it endlessly reported the 
drives were out of sync and spent days re-synching them.  Now I just 
use Carbon Copy Cloner to back up one to the other every week or so.  
99.99% of the data never changes anyway.  Any data that is both 
critical and frequently changing I back up with Time Machine.  Not as 
elegant as a full RAID solution but elegance comes at a price and you 
reach the point of diminishing returns quickly.


> While there are a few products out there that compete with the Drobo, the 
vast
> majority of RAID arrays aren't even in the same ball park.

I can believe that.  However the tickets to the game are a little too 
expensive for my budget :)

-- 
Nelson

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#70529

On 2015-03-05, Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 09:06:18 -0500, Jolly Roger wrote
> (in article <clr66qF75tsU5@mid.individual.net>):
>
>> Which model(s) are the reviews about, specifically?
>
> Same as yours, I believe.
>
>   http://www.amazon.com/Drobo-Beyond-FireWire-Storage-Backup/dp/B004CRIL
> FI

Ok. I just took a look. So out of 79 reviews, 52 were in the top 4-5
stars ratings. That's not bad. Of the 19 1-star reviews, most seem to be
about problems due to things like buggy Windows 7 USB3 and eSATA
drivers, bugs in Windows Backup & Restore software, power outages during
operation without a UPS (duh!), and so on - most of which do not apply
to Mac users. 

And if you use a Drobo, you should definitely connect it to an
uninterruptible power supply. Removing power from any drive while using
it is bound to cause a problem - that should be common sense.  

>> Oh, so "Nobro" must mean "some standard "dumb" RAID array", right? It
>> would help if you'd just say what you are using, you know. ; )
>
> OK.  I just have pairs of external desktop drives attached to the 
> Mac-Mini.  I originally tried Soft RAID but it endlessly reported the 
> drives were out of sync and spent days re-synching them.i

That's exactly the type of thing you'll have to deal with when you use
traditional "dumb" RAID solutions. They are typically bare-bones designs
that force you to do your own recovery and learn all the technical
details when things go wrong. No thanks! I've done that before, and
Drobo has spoiled me, I readily admit. : )

> Now I just use Carbon Copy Cloner to back up one to the other every
> week or so.  99.99% of the data never changes anyway.  Any data that
> is both critical and frequently changing I back up with Time Machine.
> Not as elegant as a full RAID solution but elegance comes at a price
> and you reach the point of diminishing returns quickly.

Personally, I don't see the diminished returns. I've had this Drobo S
going on five years now without issue. It's saved me tons of headaches
through 5 or 6 hard drive failures without losing access to any of my
data for a single day during all that time. The Drobo 2nd generation I
had before it was similar.

>> While there are a few products out there that compete with the Drobo,
>> the vast majority of RAID arrays aren't even in the same ball park.
>
> I can believe that.  However the tickets to the game are a little too 
> expensive for my budget :)

The higher cost of entry for the Drobo isn't for everyone; but you get
what you pay for. If simpler, cheaper solutions work well enough,
there's no reason not to use them! You should definitely use what works
best for you.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#70368

On 2015.03.02 01:13 , Warren Oates wrote:
> In article <clhdcoFl983U8@mid.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-03-01, Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Is anyone using an NAS thingie? I've been looking at the Lenovo ix2
>> line > -- they seem pretty cheap. Can you boot from one of these?
>>
>> Yeah, I use a Drobo -  way better than most simple NAS solutions.
>
> Thanks. Then I said "Hmm." I can buy a used Mac Pro 1,1 or 2,1 for a few
> hundred bucks and populate 3 of the bays with 2 terabyte drives and boot
> with an SSD from the other bay and use the machine for an NAS, with
> Samba and Avahi. I can run an Apache server on it; I can run Squid and
> some sort of SQL. It's got 2 wired NICs and Airport: I can turn it into
> a router connected to my VPN (and so on).
>
> I can hack Yosemite into it, and if I'm running it essentially headless,
> it doesn't matter about the graphics display.  Aside from the obvious
> considerations of power consumption and size (it's not a noisy machine
> by any means), are there any drawbacks to such a scheme?


I second what JR says.

Not only is a Mac Mini cheaper to get and use less energy, it is far 
less likely to go Tango Uniform on you and cheaper to repair or replace 
if it does.

-- 
"Your net worth to the world is usually
  determined by what remains after your
  bad habits are subtracted from your good ones."
                                   Benjamin Franklin

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#70371

In article <3_mdnSBelJ7PDGnJnZ2dnUU7-QGdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Not only is a Mac Mini cheaper to get and use less energy, it is far 
> less likely to go Tango Uniform on you and cheaper to repair or replace 
> if it does.

That's a disadvantage that I meant to list and just forgot: the Mac Pro 
is old and (mine anyways) has been "on" since 2006. Seriously. I only 
turn it off when we go away for more than 48 hours. Rock solid machine. 
Everytime I open it up and look inside I'm awed by the design (and I 
still feel somewhat that way about the ol' Sawtooth in my back room).
-- 
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing  room scene.
  -- notes for Blade Runner

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#70375

On 15-03-02 11:35, Alan Browne wrote:

> Not only is a Mac Mini cheaper to get and use less energy, it is far 
> less likely to go Tango Uniform on you and cheaper to repair or replace 
> if it does.

Out of curiosity, how do you fit 4 2TB disks in a Mac Mini ?

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#70376

On 2015-03-02, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 15-03-02 11:35, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> Not only is a Mac Mini cheaper to get and use less energy, it is far 
>> less likely to go Tango Uniform on you and cheaper to repair or replace 
>> if it does.
>
> Out of curiosity, how do you fit 4 2TB disks in a Mac Mini ?

Awww, you're so cute! He didn't claim you could. Imagine that.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#70382

On 15-03-02 14:13, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> Out of curiosity, how do you fit 4 2TB disks in a Mac Mini ?
> 
> Awww, you're so cute! He didn't claim you could. Imagine that.


I though the premise of this thread was to seek solutions for storage.
So if the Mini acts as a storage controller and needs external disks,
you still need that external storage solution.

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#70386

In article <54f4beb4$0$41707$c3e8da3$5d8fb80f@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 15-03-02 14:13, Jolly Roger wrote:
> >> 
> >> Out of curiosity, how do you fit 4 2TB disks in a Mac Mini ?
> > 
> > Awww, you're so cute! He didn't claim you could. Imagine that.
> 
> I though the premise of this thread was to seek solutions for storage.
> So if the Mini acts as a storage controller and needs external disks,
> you still need that external storage solution.

Probably the cheapest solution is to plug an external USB drive into
the router (especially if you already have a router with USB ports on
it).

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#70388

In article <030320150931099095%YourName@YourISP.com>,
 Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> Probably the cheapest solution is to plug an external USB drive into
> the router (especially if you already have a router with USB ports on
> it)

Seriously? Do you actually do this? I've got a Dlink DIR 645 because it 
was cheap and had a gigabit switch in it. It's got a USB port. I've 
never plugged anything into it.
-- 
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing  room scene.
  -- notes for Blade Runner

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#70389

On 2015.03.02 15:58 , Warren Oates wrote:
> In article <030320150931099095%YourName@YourISP.com>,
> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>
>> Probably the cheapest solution is to plug an external USB drive into
>> the router (especially if you already have a router with USB ports on
>> it)
>
> Seriously? Do you actually do this? I've got a Dlink DIR 645 because it
> was cheap and had a gigabit switch in it. It's got a USB port. I've
> never plugged anything into it.

I had a DIR something or other (323?) but found it dead slow.

What real write rates can you get with the 645?

Read rates?


-- 
"Your net worth to the world is usually
  determined by what remains after your
  bad habits are subtracted from your good ones."
                                   Benjamin Franklin

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#70402

In article <kp-dnX6oXfpjeWnJnZ2dnUU7-XmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> I had a DIR something or other (323?) but found it dead slow.
> 
> What real write rates can you get with the 645?

I have a slow ISP and I get my "line speed" with no problems, even over 
VPN. I don't know what read and write means in this context.
-- 
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing  room scene.
  -- notes for Blade Runner

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#70406

On 2015.03.03 07:18 , Warren Oates wrote:
> In article <kp-dnX6oXfpjeWnJnZ2dnUU7-XmdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> I had a DIR something or other (323?) but found it dead slow.
>>
>> What real write rates can you get with the 645?
>
> I have a slow ISP and I get my "line speed" with no problems, even over
> VPN. I don't know what read and write means in this context.

Nothing to do with the ISP nevermind VPN.

If you save a file to the DIR 645 what rate do you get (MB / s).  (Write 
rate).

What read rate?


-- 
"Your net worth to the world is usually
  determined by what remains after your
  bad habits are subtracted from your good ones."
                                   Benjamin Franklin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#70412

In article <Ldmdnfeo6PySc2jJnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Nothing to do with the ISP nevermind VPN.
> 
> If you save a file to the DIR 645 what rate do you get (MB / s).  (Write 
> rate).

Oh, I see. I've never used that port, so I don't know.
-- 
Where's the Vangelis music?
Pris' tongue is sticking out in in the wide shot after Batty has kissed her.
They have put back more tits into the Zhora dressing  room scene.
  -- notes for Blade Runner

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#70416

In article <54f60be1$0$1517$c3e8da3$e408f015@news.astraweb.com>, Warren
Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <Ldmdnfeo6PySc2jJnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>  Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > 
> > Nothing to do with the ISP nevermind VPN.
> > 
> > If you save a file to the DIR 645 what rate do you get (MB / s).  (Write 
> > rate).
> 
> Oh, I see. I've never used that port, so I don't know.

It will largely depend on what USB type it is - according to a quick
Google search the DIR-645 has USB2. 

It will also depend on what USB type the the drive has, as well as the
speed of the drive itself and the speed of your network connection
(wireless is usually slower than a direct Ethernet cable).

The DNS-323 seems to be an older product so may only have a USB1 port
(the Google results don't say and I don't have time to fully search)
and slower wireless networking.

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#70417

On 2015.03.03 14:30 , Warren Oates wrote:
> In article <Ldmdnfeo6PySc2jJnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Nothing to do with the ISP nevermind VPN.
>>
>> If you save a file to the DIR 645 what rate do you get (MB / s).
>> (Write rate).
>
> Oh, I see. I've never used that port, so I don't know.


Oops - my fault.  I thought it was a NAS not a router.


-- 
"Your net worth to the world is usually
  determined by what remains after your
  bad habits are subtracted from your good ones."
                                   Benjamin Franklin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#70391

In article <54f4cef1$0$24581$b1db1813$46decd27@news.astraweb.com>,
Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Probably the cheapest solution is to plug an external USB drive into
> > the router (especially if you already have a router with USB ports on
> > it)
> 
> Seriously? Do you actually do this? I've got a Dlink DIR 645 because it 
> was cheap and had a gigabit switch in it. It's got a USB port. I've 
> never plugged anything into it.

it's convenient if the router supports it but generally it's rather
slow.

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#70394

In article <54f4cef1$0$24581$b1db1813$46decd27@news.astraweb.com>,
Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <030320150931099095%YourName@YourISP.com>,
>  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Probably the cheapest solution is to plug an external USB drive into
> > the router (especially if you already have a router with USB ports on
> > it)
> 
> Seriously? Do you actually do this? I've got a Dlink DIR 645 because it 
> was cheap and had a gigabit switch in it. It's got a USB port. I've 
> never plugged anything into it.

Most routers work (there are some that are flakey and don't officially
support storage drives). You can also use the router's USB port to have
a network printer instead using Mac OS X's printer sharing and needing
to leave the host Mac running. 

I vaguely recall that Time Machine can also be a bit flakey on
recognising drives connected that way. But it's probably worth a try if
you've already got such a router and external drive (you could even
test it using a USB keyring drive).

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#70395

On 2015-03-02, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 15-03-02 14:13, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> Out of curiosity, how do you fit 4 2TB disks in a Mac Mini ?
>> 
>> Awww, you're so cute! He didn't claim you could. Imagine that.
>
> I though the premise of this thread was to seek solutions for storage.
> So if the Mini acts as a storage controller and needs external disks,
> you still need that external storage solution.

Isn't that blindingly obvious?

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#70377

In article <54f4b5e2$0$34244$b1db1813$e2fc9064@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> 
> > Not only is a Mac Mini cheaper to get and use less energy, it is far 
> > less likely to go Tango Uniform on you and cheaper to repair or replace 
> > if it does.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how do you fit 4 2TB disks in a Mac Mini ?

usb, firewire and/or thunderbolt.

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