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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #68851

Re: Gassee joins the fray

From Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Newsgroups comp.sys.mac.system
Subject Re: Gassee joins the fray
Date 2015-01-23 23:17 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <230120152317216901%michelle@michelle.org> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <m9uvhh$6ud$1@dont-email.me> <230120152046142826%michelle@michelle.org> <m9v524$qnt$1@dont-email.me> <230120152105040648%michelle@michelle.org> <m9v8nm$489$1@dont-email.me>

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In article <m9v8nm$489$1@dont-email.me>, Oregonian Haruspex
<bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Not the same; Cocoa and Carbon replaced the yellow and blue boxes,
> > which gave the OS one interface instead of the two that the colored
> > boxes required.
> 
> The interfaces were glaringly different even to a user when using 
> Carbon or Classic apps.  To a developer even moreso.

Carbon is one of Apple Inc.'s C-based application programming
interfaces (APIs) for the Macintosh operating system. Carbon provided a
good degree of backward compatibility for programs that ran on the
now-obsolete Mac OS 8 and 9. Developers could use the Carbon APIs to
port their "classic" Mac software to the Mac OS X platform with far
less effort than a port to the entirely different Cocoa system which
originated in OpenStep.

With the purchase of NeXT in late 1996, Apple developed a new operating
system strategy based largely on the existing OpenStep platform. The
new Rhapsody was relatively simple, it retained most of OpenStep's
existing object libraries under the name "Yellow Box", ported
OpenStep's existing GUI to make it look more Mac-like and less
NeXT-like, ported several major APIs from the Mac OS to Rhapsody's
underlying Unix-like system (notably QuickTime and AppleSearch), and
added an emulator known as the "Blue Box" that ran existing Mac OS
software.

When this plan was unveiled at the Worldwide Developers Conference in
1997 there was some push-back from existing Mac OS developers, who were
upset that their code bases would effectively be locked into an
emulator that was unlikely to ever be updated. They took to calling the
Blue Box the "penalty box".[citation needed] Larger developers like
Microsoft and Adobe balked outright, and refused to consider porting to
OpenStep, which was so different from the existing Mac OS that there
was little or no portability.
Apple took these concerns to heart. When Steve Jobs announced this
change in direction at the 1998 WWDC, he stated that "what developers
really wanted was a modern version of the Mac OS, and Apple [was] going
to deliver it". The statement was met with thunderous applause. The
original Rhapsody concept was eventually released in 1999 as Mac OS X
Server 1.0, the only release of its type.

In order to offer a real and well supported upgrade path for existing
Mac OS code bases, Apple introduced the Carbon system. Carbon consists
of many libraries and functions that offer a Mac-like API, but running
on top of the underlying Unix-like OS, rather than a copy of the Mac OS
running in emulation. The Carbon libraries are extensively cleaned up,
modernized and better "protected". While the Mac OS was filled with
APIs that shared memory to pass data, under Carbon all such access was
re-implemented using accessor subroutines on opaque data types. This
allowed Carbon to support true multitasking and memory protection,
features Mac developers had been requesting for a decade. Other changes
from the pre-existing API removed features which were conceptually
incompatible with Mac OS X, or simply obsolete. For example,
applications could no longer install interrupt handlers or device
drivers.

In order to support Carbon, the entire Rhapsody model of the OS
changed. Whereas Rhapsody would effectively be OpenStep with an
emulator, under the new system both the OpenStep and Carbon would,
where possible, share common code. To do this, many of the useful bits
of code from the lower-levels of the OpenStep system, known as
Foundation, were re-implemented in a pure-C form. This code became
known as Core Foundation, or CF for short. A version of the Yellow Box
ported to call CF became the new Cocoa (API), and the Mac-like calls of
Carbon also called the same functions. Under the new system, Carbon and
Cocoa were peers. This conversion would normally have slowed the
performance of Cocoa as the object methods called into the underlying C
libraries, but Apple used a technique they called toll-free bridging to
reduce this impact.

As part of this conversion, Apple also ported the graphics engine from
the license-encumbered Display PostScript to the licence-free Quartz.
Quartz provided native calls that could be used from either Carbon or
Cocoa, as well as offering Java 2D-like interfaces as well. The
underlying operating system itself was further isolated and released as
the Darwin (operating system).

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Thread

Gassee joins the fray nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2015-01-19 16:50 -0700
  Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-20 00:01 +0000
    Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-01-19 22:18 -0500
      Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-20 15:43 +0000
        Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-20 11:16 -0500
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-20 16:28 +0000
          Re: Gassee joins the fray TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2015-01-20 12:39 -0600
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 06:18 +0000
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-01-20 14:05 -0500
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 06:19 +0000
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-01-20 19:53 -0500
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 02:40 +0000
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Lao-Ming Liu <laomingliu@gmail.com> - 2015-01-20 20:18 -0800
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 04:42 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-20 22:31 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-21 21:46 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lao-Ming Liu <laomingliu@gmail.com> - 2015-01-20 22:01 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-20 23:12 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-01-21 09:56 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2015-01-21 09:22 -0600
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 15:49 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-21 10:59 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 16:29 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 16:52 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 17:06 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-21 13:40 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-21 19:02 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-21 14:09 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 19:23 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 19:19 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 19:46 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 19:50 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 20:43 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 20:55 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-21 14:00 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 21:09 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-21 16:14 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 21:19 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 23:53 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-22 00:06 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-21 13:55 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 23:55 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-21 17:41 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-21 16:13 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-21 16:10 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 21:12 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-21 23:57 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-01-22 15:16 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-22 11:59 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-23 01:04 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 03:04 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-01-22 11:59 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-21 23:17 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2015-01-22 20:42 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-22 22:14 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 03:52 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-22 22:14 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 14:21 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> - 2015-01-21 23:12 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-01-24 18:42 -0500
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-01-24 18:40 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-25 02:53 +0000
  Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-21 21:36 -0800
    Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-22 16:55 +0000
      Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-22 12:14 -0500
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-22 17:24 +0000
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-22 13:25 -0800
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-22 22:05 +0000
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-22 22:06 -0800
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 14:16 +0000
          Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 13:44 -0500
      Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2015-01-24 18:47 -0500
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-25 02:57 +0000
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-24 21:09 -0700
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-25 09:30 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2015-01-25 16:19 +0000
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-25 09:22 -0700
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 11:09 +0000
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-26 14:53 +0000
    Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-22 12:14 -0500
      Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-22 22:03 -0800
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 00:00 -0800
          Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-23 09:52 -0500
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 15:13 +0000
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-23 15:40 +0000
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 11:28 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 13:44 -0500
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 11:44 -0800
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:32 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 14:44 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:48 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 14:50 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 23:15 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 18:22 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-01-24 10:56 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-24 11:05 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-24 16:22 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-24 21:51 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-01-25 12:20 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-25 02:38 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-24 15:32 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 23:14 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 18:22 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:29 +0000
              Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-24 15:35 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-24 12:38 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:33 +0000
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:30 -0800
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 14:42 -0800
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:54 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 15:00 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 08:50 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-01-24 17:07 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 16:35 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2015-01-25 00:03 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-25 09:19 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 23:13 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 11:01 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2015-01-26 21:34 -0500
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 23:07 +0000
            Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 18:22 -0500
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 14:12 +0000
        Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-23 09:49 -0500
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 15:08 +0000
            Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-23 10:49 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 16:18 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-23 11:30 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 16:55 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-23 12:03 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 17:07 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 13:44 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 11:41 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:39 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 14:45 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-24 16:19 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-24 21:38 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-24 18:45 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-25 03:04 +0000
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 11:17 -0700
              Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 13:44 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 18:46 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-01-24 10:46 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-01-24 10:54 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-24 13:55 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-24 10:42 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-24 16:14 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-25 03:54 +0000
            Re: Gassee joins the fray sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2015-01-23 17:34 +0000
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 17:49 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2015-01-23 18:05 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 18:37 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 11:41 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 18:43 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 14:13 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 12:23 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 19:28 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:58 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:58 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-26 14:46 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2015-01-23 20:46 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-01-24 10:17 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 14:05 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 19:08 +0000
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 11:20 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:40 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 18:23 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 18:21 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 20:50 -0700
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-01-24 10:15 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2015-01-23 23:19 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-01-24 13:16 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 08:48 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-24 09:20 +0000
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-01-23 15:38 +0000
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:36 -0800
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 14:45 -0800
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 23:17 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-24 17:14 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-24 22:37 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-01-25 12:24 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:40 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-26 13:39 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 18:22 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 18:22 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 18:21 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 22:05 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 20:46 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 19:55 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 21:05 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 20:57 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 21:01 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-24 00:12 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-01-24 18:31 +1300
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-01-23 23:17 -0700
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-24 08:52 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-24 18:40 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-25 03:03 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-25 09:27 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray sctvguy1 <sctvguy1@invalid.net> - 2015-01-26 01:50 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-25 22:25 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-01-25 14:56 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-25 20:19 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2015-01-26 21:55 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 20:07 -0800
                Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 23:57 -0500
                Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:45 +0000
                Re: Gassee joins the fray "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2015-01-26 21:52 -0500
              Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:37 +0000
              Re: Gassee joins the fray "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2015-01-26 21:49 -0500
        Re: Gassee joins the fray Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-01-23 11:26 -0500
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-01-24 10:20 +1300
          Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-23 14:43 -0800
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2015-01-23 14:48 -0800
            Re: Gassee joins the fray Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-01-26 10:56 +0000
        Re: Gassee joins the fray nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-23 13:44 -0500
  Re: Gassee joins the fray "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> - 2015-01-22 20:37 -0500
    Re: Gassee joins the fray nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2015-01-22 20:55 -0700
      Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 03:59 +0000
    Re: Gassee joins the fray Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-22 22:09 -0800
      Re: Gassee joins the fray Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-01-23 14:16 +0000

csiph-web