Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.sys.mac.apps > #18409 > unrolled thread

Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5)

Back to article view | Back to comp.sys.mac.apps

Contents

  Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) licensedtoquill@gmail.com - 2013-10-08 07:15 -0700
    Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) ggrandish@gmail.com - 2013-10-08 15:54 -0700
      Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) licensedtoquill@gmail.com - 2013-10-08 16:57 -0700
        Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-09 14:20 +1300
          Re: (I should probably post this elsewhere) licensedtoquill@gmail.com - 2013-10-08 20:52 -0700
            Re: (I should probably post this elsewhere) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-09 18:08 +1300
        Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2013-10-09 12:58 +0000
          Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) licensedtoquill@gmail.com - 2013-10-10 13:46 -0700
        Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-10-12 04:32 -0700
          Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-12 10:49 -0400
            Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-13 13:09 +1300
              Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-12 21:08 -0400
                Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> - 2013-10-14 02:13 +0100
                  Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-14 07:23 -0400
          Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-13 13:09 +1300
            Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-10-13 08:22 -0700
              Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-14 07:58 +1300
                Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-10-13 14:14 -0700
                  Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-14 13:06 +1300
                    Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-10-14 07:38 -0700
                      Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-15 04:44 +1300
                        Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2013-11-06 09:58 -0800
    Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) William Munny <will@bigwhiskey.gov> - 2013-10-08 19:23 -0400
    Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-09 12:45 +1300
    Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) William Munny <will@bigwhiskey.gov> - 2013-10-10 16:57 -0400
    Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) licensedtoquill@gmail.com - 2013-10-14 18:06 -0700
      Re: Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5) jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2013-10-15 17:11 +1300

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#18409 — Disastrous incompatibility between iphoto and time machine (10.8.5)

Am having catastrophic problem with iPhoto and/or backups. (at least Applecare tells me it is catastrophic)

Have restored from a TM backup and it seems to have LOST ALL MY AUGUST PHOTOS. It is as if some virus got in and told TM not to back up anything done  in one specific month. But I have full backups throughout September.

I can still see the events, the place markers for the hundreds of photos, all the settings sizes and identifications etc but no thumbnails or photos. Nothing whatsoever for the photos in the MASTERS folder in package contents and, amazingly, no updates to the existence or size of any August or 8 folder after 28th July. (I was uploading photos throughout August)

Everything was still there until about 2nd October when I did an erase and reinstall of the OS from TM. I had been looking at, manipulating the photos, making TM backups throughout September, running slideshows of the August photos etc. Now suddenly only the events appear showing the number of photos which had been in those 5 events.  No amount of rebuilding either the thumbnails or library does much, though it did turn one greyed out event into a palm tree and sunset greyed out event, still with no photos in it.

There was obviously no exclusion in TM for the iphoto library but nothing was being backed up and now only the events have been restored.

Has anyone got any ideas on this one or come across this problem before please? It completely flummoxed various senior level Apple iphoto specific reps.

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#18413

On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 7:15:05 AM UTC-7, license...@gmail.com wrote:
> There was obviously no exclusion in TM for the iphoto library but nothing was being backed up and now only the events have been restored.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone got any ideas on this one or come across this problem before please? It completely flummoxed various senior level Apple iphoto specific reps.

There is a known bug in Time Machine with 10.8, in which seemingly random folders mysteriously get added to the exclusion list, despite them not appearing in the exclusion list in System Preferences. One common instance of this results in only the /Users folder being backed up, with everything else excluded.* The System Preferences pane doesn't report any of these exclusions. It is not known at this time what causes this bug.

Check this file: /Library/Preferences/com.apple.TimeMachine.plist by opening it with Property List Editor or Xcode. The ExcludeByPath key is what you want to examine. See if a path to the folder in question is showing up there.

*I got bitten by this bug for a few weeks and was lucky enough to notice it and fix it (deleted the plist and reconfigured Time Machine) before I had to rely on those backups for data retrieval. But the experience has me trusting Time Machine much less than I used to.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18416

Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups

FWIW (not much) before I did the erase and reinstall, I did do a full backup to another drive which i have here

Yes, TM did exclude my whole user folder FROM BOTH BACKUPS and nothing substantial was being backed up between July 31st and October 1st.

It is a bit curious that the metadata for each photo was being backed up while the actual photos can't be traced anywhere!!

How on earth did you notice that your supposedly reliable backups weren't backing up properly?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18417

<licensedtoquill@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups
> 
> FWIW (not much) before I did the erase and reinstall, I did do a full
> backup to another drive which i have here
> 
> Yes, TM did exclude my whole user folder FROM BOTH BACKUPS and nothing
> substantial was being backed up between July 31st and October 1st.
> 
> It is a bit curious that the metadata for each photo was being backed up
> while the actual photos can't be traced anywhere!!
> 
> How on earth did you notice that your supposedly reliable backups weren't
> backing up properly?

Every once in a while (I suggest setting a periodic calendar reminder in
iCal, Google Calendar, etc) I restore a random file from each backup.
It's not a perfect test, but given I do this, use two different backup
formats and three backup destinations (with one being offsite), and my
backups keep deleted and changed files going back at least a year/to the
limit of available space), I can have a comfortable level of certainty
my data is safe, and available for restoration as needed.

No backup strategy is perfect, but one can take easy, low maintenance
decisions to reduce risk. Don't ever rely on only one backup or only one
backup format. Granted it's a hell of a lot better than nothing, but
depending on the value of your data, it can be a disastrously
shortsighted gamble.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18425 — Re: (I should probably post this elsewhere)

OK Assuming this OP is now solved, in the event that the old iphoto library is somewhere on the not-yet-overwritten part of the 500 gig drive, I wonder if there is any way of identifying it and unerasing it on a Linux partitioned HDD?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18426 — Re: (I should probably post this elsewhere)

<licensedtoquill@gmail.com> wrote:

> OK Assuming this OP is now solved, in the event that the old iphoto
> library is somewhere on the not-yet-overwritten part of the 500 gig drive,
> I wonder if there is any way of identifying it and unerasing it on a Linux
> partitioned HDD?

I'm genuinely sorry, but I wouldn't rate your chances of successfully
recovering much or any deleted data from a HD that has been in use
afterwards. Especially in use as much as a backup destination would have
been. I suspect you'll have to accept this loss and hopefully take steps
to ensure risk of further data loss is minimized. I am very sorry. I
know how horrible it is to lose important family documents.

For photos especially there are many nice online storage services such
as imgur (really great - I use it myself for online photo storage and
sharing, and it has a very nice and simple javascript UI), that allow
privacy or sharing as you desire. You could backup locally to one HD
with Time Machine, to another say with the free version of CrashPlan,
and upload your photos to a site like imgur. And maybe store or sync
other important documents into DropBox's free 2GB's of space. That would
be a cheap way to fulfill most sensible backup requirements, without
spending ongoing monies. Though I'm keener on an offsite backup that is
incremental, e.g. CrashPLan across the internet to a friend, family
member's, or work computer (can be Windows, Mac or Linux, no matter the
source's OS).
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18430

licensedtoquill@gmail.com wrote:
> How on earth did you notice that your supposedly reliable backups 
> weren't backing up properly?

I just happened to be browsing my TM backup drive with Finder, and 
noticed it. I realize that that is not something that most users will 
routinely do, given that most expect TM to "just work".

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18448

I had this happen to me once before, with IPhoto, it kept the thumbnails but lost the photos. i should have realised that this sort of thing might happen again.

On that occasion I found some google app which could read the original USB drive from which the erased photos came: Now I cant find any reference to it.  I do  suspect that a small percentage of the photos remain not yet overwritten on the 16 gig SD card which would easily fit into a USB drive.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18466

On 10/8/2013 4:57 PM PT, licensedtoquill@gmail.com typed:

> Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups

How long has this been happening? My client and I use it for external 
USB HDD backups too. What's a good free alternative then?
-- 
"Maybe it's like an ant hive..." "Bees man, bees have hives." "You know 
what I mean. It's like one female that runs the whole show." "Yes, the 
queen." "Yeah the mamma. She is bad*ss, man. I mean big." "These things 
ain't ants estupido." "I know that." --Aliens movie
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18472

In article <3bCdndfNbMn4rsTPnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> > Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups
> 
> How long has this been happening? My client and I use it for external 
> USB HDD backups too. What's a good free alternative then?

time machine works just fine.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18480

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <3bCdndfNbMn4rsTPnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> 
> > > Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups
> > 
> > How long has this been happening? My client and I use it for external
> > USB HDD backups too. What's a good free alternative then?
> 
> time machine works just fine.

Leaving aside my bad past personal experiences with TM, I wouldn't trust
TM or any other backup app as the only backup method. That's inviting
disaster, as the OP and many others find out every day.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18482

In article <1laokg7.1ysocm8ofbufzN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> > > > Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups
> > > 
> > > How long has this been happening? My client and I use it for external
> > > USB HDD backups too. What's a good free alternative then?
> > 
> > time machine works just fine.
> 
> Leaving aside my bad past personal experiences with TM, I wouldn't trust
> TM or any other backup app as the only backup method. That's inviting
> disaster, as the OP and many others find out every day.

the more backups the better.

and no matter what anyone chooses, there will always be someone with a
horror story.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18517

On 13/10/2013 02:08, nospam wrote:
> In article <1laokg7.1ysocm8ofbufzN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>
>>>>> Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups
>>>>
>>>> How long has this been happening? My client and I use it for external
>>>> USB HDD backups too. What's a good free alternative then?
>>>
>>> time machine works just fine.
>>
>> Leaving aside my bad past personal experiences with TM, I wouldn't trust
>> TM or any other backup app as the only backup method. That's inviting
>> disaster, as the OP and many others find out every day.
>
> the more backups the better.
>
> and no matter what anyone chooses, there will always be someone with a
> horror story.

Agrred.  ieard someone saying a year of so ago that at least three 
backups should be made to give some confidence of recovery.

The three backups should be of different types (I have a Time machine, a 
SuperDuper and Varbon Copy Cloner).

The three backups should be on different media (I have two backup drives 
on my Ageing mac Pro plus a couple of Network Servers.

Preferably the backups should be in different places so I'm building a 
garden shed, insulated and heated, for my workroom and will have one of 
the network servers left in the house.

I don't use any Cloud facilities as they could go broke at a moment's 
notice and pull the plug on me.  And they probably charge for a Terabyte 
of storage.

And replace the disc drives every few years.

I'm not very good a double checking that they are wll recoverable from.

Anything else?

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                           tim@powys.org
              for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18522

In article <bc0uq9Fph0iU1@mid.individual.net>, Tim Powys-Lybbe
<tim@powys.org> wrote:

> > and no matter what anyone chooses, there will always be someone with a
> > horror story.
> 
> Agrred.  ieard someone saying a year of so ago that at least three 
> backups should be made to give some confidence of recovery.

the more important the data, the more backups you should have, with at
least one should be off site.

> The three backups should be of different types (I have a Time machine, a 
> SuperDuper and Varbon Copy Cloner).
> 
> The three backups should be on different media (I have two backup drives 
> on my Ageing mac Pro plus a couple of Network Servers.

good advice.

> Preferably the backups should be in different places so I'm building a 
> garden shed, insulated and heated, for my workroom and will have one of 
> the network servers left in the house.

an off site backup needs to be much more than in a garden shed.

should disaster strike, you might not have either one.

an off site backup could be at a friend or relative's house many miles
away, or maybe even across the country, or in the cloud. 

> I don't use any Cloud facilities as they could go broke at a moment's 
> notice and pull the plug on me.  

a backup drive could 'go broke' at a moment's notice. 

the cloud is just *another* backup, not the only backup. if they go
poof, it's no big deal, just find another cloud service. the only
hassle is uploading, but some accept hard drives for the initial
backup.

> And they probably charge for a Terabyte 
> of storage.

<http://news.yahoo.com/yahoo-reboots-flickr-offers-1-terabyte-storage-23
3556967.html>
  Yahoo Inc. said at an event in New York City's Times Square on Monday
  that it is now offering users 1 terabyte of online storage for free.

> And replace the disc drives every few years.

that too.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18479

Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> On 10/8/2013 4:57 PM PT, licensedtoquill@gmail.com typed:
> 
> > Yes, this is the problem, TM just isnt a reliable app for backups
> 
> How long has this been happening? My client and I use it for external
> USB HDD backups too. What's a good free alternative then?

While I appreciate TM has been trouble free for most users, it had too
many issues (unrecoverable files, failing to backup, excessive HD
activity) experienced personally by myself, for me to trust it back in
10.5. I understand it by and large is better now. But it sure was a
rocky start for me.

Regardless I stress once more that users ought not to place all their
backed up eggs in one basket.

CrashPlan's <http://www.crashplan.com/> free version is an excellent
backup app that can backup to a HD directly connected to your Mac or to
another computer on your home network, or to a shared HD on your
network, or to a HD connected to another computer anywhere on the
internet (and to as many sources as you like - there is no limit). The
other computers can be Mac, Windows or Linux boxes, regardless of the
backup source. So long as they can run CrashPlan you're good to go.
CrashPlan also offers paid cloud storage you can backup to, but for
offsite backup it's cheaper just to buy a friend, family member or work
another HD and backup for free to that across the internet. Offer to do
the same for them :-) You can both backup to each other for your offsite
backup needs.

But do not switch only to CrashPlan. To be safe backup to three
destinations, two of those being different formats (e.g. Time Machine
_and_ CrashPlan, or Time Machine _and_ Superduper, or CrashPlan _and_
CarbonCopyCloner, etc...), with at least one destination being offsite
(e.g. CrashPlan to a HD connected to a family member's computer the next
town over; or swap sets of backup HDs between home and work) in case
locally goes up in smoke, is flooded, robbed, or some other event
unlikely to spare your backup HDs sitting right next to your computer.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18492

> CrashPlan's <http://www.crashplan.com/> free version is an excellent
> backup app...

I only see an one month trial version? Or did I miss a completely free 
version somewhere?
-- 
"If someone makes you angry, I think the thing to do is tie them down to 
the ground, cover them in honey, and then release a swarm of killer ants 
on them. That way, you can hit them over and over again and say, 'Hey! 
I'm just trying to help!' and they can't really get mad at you." --R.M. 
Weiner
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18502

Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> > CrashPlan's <http://www.crashplan.com/> free version is an excellent
> > backup app...
> 
> I only see an one month trial version? Or did I miss a completely free
> version somewhere?

<http://www.crashplan.com/consumer/crashplan.html> "FREE for personal
backup" "Free. Totally, completely free. Really"

In other words: just download and use. Ignore the paid features
<http://www.crashplan.com/consumer/compare.html> you can trial if you
want to. There is only one version to download or use for everyone. Paid
features are unlocked by paying for a serial number, as with shareware
:-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18508

On 10/13/2013 11:58 AM PT, Jamie Kahn Genet typed:
> <http://www.crashplan.com/consumer/crashplan.html> "FREE for personal
> backup" "Free. Totally, completely free. Really"
>
> In other words: just download and use. Ignore the paid features
> <http://www.crashplan.com/consumer/compare.html> you can trial if you
> want to. There is only one version to download or use for everyone. Paid
> features are unlocked by paying for a serial number, as with shareware
> :-)

Thanks. "Ad-free interface" bugs me. Do they do anything privacy 
violations due to phoning home?
-- 
"The tiny ant dares to enter the lion's ear." --Armenian
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
A song is/was playing on this computer: Kylie Minogue - Red Blooded 
Woman 132.5bpm(DJGarryM's Ext Album Mix)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18513

Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> On 10/13/2013 11:58 AM PT, Jamie Kahn Genet typed:
> > <http://www.crashplan.com/consumer/crashplan.html> "FREE for personal
> > backup" "Free. Totally, completely free. Really"
> >
> > In other words: just download and use. Ignore the paid features
> > <http://www.crashplan.com/consumer/compare.html> you can trial if you
> > want to. There is only one version to download or use for everyone. Paid
> > features are unlocked by paying for a serial number, as with shareware
> > :-)
> 
> Thanks. "Ad-free interface" bugs me. Do they do anything privacy 
> violations due to phoning home?

What privacy violations? What do you mean? If you don't pay you have to
'endure' a few ads shown to the left of the CrashPlan App's UI, which
you only ever see during setup, administration and recovery. If that
somehow violates your privacy, then I don't think CrashPlan is for you
:-)

Especially as a CrashPlan requires setting up an account with their
service, that is used for remote administration, communication between
CrashPlan apps for admin, backup and restore over the internet, and the
like.

If you've a fear of online services, then CrashPlan definitely isn't for
you, because that's a big part of their model. Or I guess you could run
CrashPlan over a Tor network or the like, if you don't like CrashPlan
knowing the IPs of your computers with CrashPlan. Maybe even setup
CrashPlan, then disallow it to communicate by blocking it's outgoing
connections in your firewall. But likely it's easier if you simply do
not use CrashPlan.

As for the security of your data (if that's what your concern is over),
read here:
<http://support.crashplan.com/doku.php/articles/encryption_key>
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18527

On 10/13/2013 5:06 PM PT, Jamie Kahn Genet typed:
> What privacy violations? What do you mean? If you don't pay you have to
> 'endure' a few ads shown to the left of the CrashPlan App's UI, which
> you only ever see during setup, administration and recovery. If that
> somehow violates your privacy, then I don't think CrashPlan is for you
> :-)
>
> Especially as a CrashPlan requires setting up an account with their
> service, that is used for remote administration, communication between
> CrashPlan apps for admin, backup and restore over the internet, and the
> like.
>
> If you've a fear of online services, then CrashPlan definitely isn't for
> you, because that's a big part of their model. Or I guess you could run
> CrashPlan over a Tor network or the like, if you don't like CrashPlan
> knowing the IPs of your computers with CrashPlan. Maybe even setup
> CrashPlan, then disallow it to communicate by blocking it's outgoing
> connections in your firewall. But likely it's easier if you simply do
> not use CrashPlan.
>
> As for the security of your data (if that's what your concern is over),
> read here:
> <http://support.crashplan.com/doku.php/articles/encryption_key>

Ah, I thought CrashPlan can do offline local backups too. Nevermind 
then. I don't do clouds.
-- 
"They are like the ant... They start one way and turn around and go the 
other way... They look all the time at the ground and never see the 
sky." --Davi Kopenawa Yanomami, Amazonian Indian (Newsweek 117(17):5, 1991)
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.sys.mac.apps

csiph-web