Groups > comp.sys.mac.apps > #28976 > unrolled thread

How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

Started by	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
First post	2015-04-20 00:40 +0000
Last post	2015-04-22 09:45 -0400
Articles	20 on this page of 393 — 26 participants

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#29168

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-20 20:12 +1200
Message-ID	<1m370j7.1uw13bz1k9xlxyN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#29154

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36wmf.g6ck13tf9cd0N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
> 
> > A classic case of someone making life hard for himself and blaming
> > everyone but himself.
> 
> Let's be clear here.
> I am *not* a macintosh expert and never once said or implied that I was.
> I was simply helping someone else create a plain text file and populate
> it.
> 
> Since I didn't know what the default text editor was on a Macintosh, and
> since none was in the desktop menu, I had figured it would launch if I
> could create an empty plain text file.

So you're that foolish you never bothered to learn enough about the Mac
to know where applications are located? And you say you 'help' other Mac
users?

> Failing at creating an empty plain text file, I then searched for plain
> text files to launch but could only find (IIRC) what turned out to be RTF
> files I think (I don't remember what files I actually copied).
> 
> I then struggled a bit with the unintuitive (to me) multi-step method of
> copying a file from one location to where I needed it to be but 
> eventually I was able to paste the desired information into a file of the
> desired name in the desired location.

How is it a "multi-step method" to copy a file? :-D

> It turned out that to save a *new* file to ASCII versus as the other 
> formats required two very different menu sequences.
> 
> The problem was that all this is unintuitive to someone who is well 
> accustomed to the default text editor on the other two common desktop/
> server operating systems.

Yes, it's so very hard to take the 30 seconds maximum it requies to look
through all of TextEdit's menus and Preferences. You make life extremely
hard for yourself, and worse you inflict your idiocy upon others.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#29211

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-20 07:15 -0700
Message-ID	<200420150715485321%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#29154

In article <mh295e$i5o$48@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote in message
> 1m36wmf.g6ck13tf9cd0N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz
> 
> > A classic case of someone making life hard for himself and blaming
> > everyone but himself.
> 
> Let's be clear here.
> I am *not* a macintosh expert and never once said or implied that I was.
> I was simply helping someone else create a plain text file and populate 
> it.

Tell the person whom you are trying to help that you don't understand
the Macintosh and to find someone who does understand it; that's the
only way he can get help.

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#29019

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 02:44 +0000
Message-ID	<mh1p75$3dm$14@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#29007

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
190420152233070791nospamospam@nospam.invalid

>> And that saves an ASCII text file?
> 
> if you set the app to text it does.
> 
> are you even reading what people write??

Everyone says that TextEdit can save ASCII text.
I'm fine with that.

If someone could just answer this question, we'd be done with this thread.

Which of these options is the TextEdit ASCII text option?
http://i.imgur.com/FDYa45h.png

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#29022

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date	2015-04-19 22:46 -0400
Message-ID	<190420152246500172%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to	#29019

In article <mh1p75$3dm$14@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> If someone could just answer this question, we'd be done with this thread.

it's been answered several times.

once again, the app defaults to rtf, so disable that *in the app*, not
the save panel.

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#29041

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 03:31 +0000
Message-ID	<mh1rud$i5o$5@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#29022

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
190420152246500172nospamospam@nospam.invalid

> once again, the app defaults to rtf, so disable that *in the app*, not
> the save panel.

It wasn't intuitive that you have to basically turn off the capability
to Save As, by turning on the capability for the default text editor to
save ASCII text, but it's done.

I don't have the Macintosh in front of me, so I will have to check tomorrow
if turning on the ability for the default text editor to save ASCII text
then turns off the ability for that same editor to "Save As" other formats
(which would be weird, if that's the case).

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#29046

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-19 20:37 -0700
Message-ID	<190420152037478396%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#29041

In article <mh1rud$i5o$5@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> > once again, the app defaults to rtf, so disable that *in the app*, not
> > the save panel.
> 
> It wasn't intuitive that you have to basically turn off the capability
> to Save As, by turning on the capability for the default text editor to
> save ASCII text, but it's done.

You don't lose anything.

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#29059

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:20 +0000
Message-ID	<mh1ur2$i5o$8@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#29046

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
190420152037478396%michelle@michelle.org

>> It wasn't intuitive that you have to basically turn off the capability
>> to Save As, by turning on the capability for the default text editor to
>> save ASCII text, but it's done.
> 
> You don't lose anything.

Actually, if what nospam, David Empson, and David Ritz said is true,
you *do* (temporarily) lose the capability to Save As whenever you set 
the capability to save to ASCII text in the default editor preferences.

It's almost as if Apple made saving ASCII as convoluted & unintuitive as 
possible; but, I now think I understand what you folks do every day
to have the option to save *either* as ASCII or some other format
from your default text editor.

You either:
a. Temporarily unhide the preference to save ASCII and then save
   the ASCII file and then re-hide the preference to save ASCII.

or, you:

b. Temporarily save as the wrong format (e.g., RTF), and then
   you go to the Format menu and then you save into the desired 
   format (i.e., ASCII text).

Given those are the *only* two options that solve the problem using
the default text editor, I can see now (in spades) why nospam and
others were advising a text editor other than the default TextEdit.

I'll explain to the Mac user tomorrow these (IMHO) idiotic options.

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#29067

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 04:31 +0000
Message-ID	<cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#29059

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> 190420152037478396%michelle@michelle.org
>
>>> It wasn't intuitive that you have to basically turn off the
>>> capability to Save As, by turning on the capability for the default
>>> text editor to save ASCII text, but it's done.
>> 
>> You don't lose anything.
>
> Actually, if what nospam, David Empson, and David Ritz said is true,
> you *do* (temporarily) lose the capability to Save As whenever you set
> the capability to save to ASCII text in the default editor
> preferences.

Bullshit:

1. Format > Make Plain Text.  2. Save the document. 

The only thing that is lost is you - hopelessly.

> It's almost as if Apple made saving ASCII as convoluted & unintuitive
> as possible

No, it's as if Apple make TextEdit treat documents as rich text by
default. And you have chosen to ignore the simple Format > Make Plain
Text menu command.

>; but, I now think I understand what you folks do every day to have the
>option to save *either* as ASCII or some other format from your default
>text editor.

Nope. You don't understand anything.

> You either: a. Temporarily unhide the preference to save ASCII and
> then save the ASCII file and then re-hide the preference to save
> ASCII.
>
> or, you:
>
> b. Temporarily save as the wrong format (e.g., RTF), and then you go
> to the Format menu and then you save into the desired format (i.e.,
> ASCII text).

Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.

Also, you missed a third option (which is actually what most people do):

Use a better (and free) plain text editor, such as TextWrangler.

> Given those are the *only* two options that solve the problem using
> the default text editor

Wrong (see above).

> I can see now (in spades) why nospam and others were advising a text
> editor other than the default TextEdit.

Wrong again. The reason we are suggesting TextWrangler is because it has
*many* more features that are designed with plain text editing in mind,
while TextEdit features are mostly designed for rich text. Apparently
nobody ever taught you to use the right tool for the job.

> I'll explain to the Mac user tomorrow these (IMHO) idiotic options.

Poor guy. What a horribly misinformed "teacher"...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#29093

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 05:42 +0000
Message-ID	<mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#29067

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net

> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.

I belatedly understand what you are saying, which is that the default 
text editor has /two different menus for saving files/, one for what 
Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other 
to *Save As* a variety of other formats.

1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text 
2. File > Save > File Format > {a variety of formats}

I will test this out tomorrow, and, since you're very clear on this, I'm 
sure it will work.

I will let the user know *not* to use the preferences method, but to use 
the two-different-menu method, which, I agree, is both simpler and more 
flexible.

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#29104

From	Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date	2015-04-19 23:03 -0700
Message-ID	<190420152303313029%michelle@michelle.org>
In reply to	#29093

In article <mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> I will let the user know *not* to use the preferences method, but to use 
> the two-different-menu method, which, I agree, is both simpler and more 
> flexible.

I was wrong; you don't get it.

What you call the "preferences method" is not a method.  It is merely
setting what you want the default formatting to be.  If the majority of
the documents you create with the program are plain text documents, you
can set preferences to save as plain text; on the other hand, if the
majority of documents are Rich Text documents, you set the preferences
to Rich Text.  This is a *one-time* *thing*; from then on if you need
to format a document in the other format, you press command-shift-T (or
use the View menu).

To save the document, you press command-S (or choose Save from the File
menu).

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#29122

From	"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>
Date	2015-04-20 06:33 +0000
Message-ID	<mh26jb$i5o$34@news.albasani.net>
In reply to	#29104

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
190420152303313029%michelle@michelle.org

> I was wrong; you don't get it.

:)

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#29184

From	dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com>
Date	2015-04-20 19:11 +1000
Message-ID	<do_ray_me-BD7345.19114220042015@aioe.org>
In reply to	#29093

In article <mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>,
 "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
> 
> > Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
> > set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
> 
> I belatedly understand what you are saying, [etc. etc...]

These exchanges strongly remind me of when God told Moses, at the top 
of Mount Sinai, to never cook a calf in its mother's milk. 

Moses: Ohhhhhh! So you are saying we should never eat milk and meat 
together. 

G: No, what I'm saying is, never cook a calf in its mother's milk. 

Moses: Oh, Lord forgive my ignorance! What you are really saying is we 
should wait six hours after eating meat to eat milk so the two are not 
in our stomachs. 

G: No, Moses, what I'm saying is, don't cook a calf in its mother's 
milk!!! 

Moses: Oh, Lord! Please don't strike me down for my stupidity! What 
you mean is we should have a separate set of dishes for milk and a 
separate set for meat and if we make a mistake we have to bury that 
dish outside.... 

G: Ah, Moses .... do what the hell you want....

And so, the Kosher Laws were founded.

-- 
dorayme

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#29188

From	Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net>
Date	2015-04-20 10:22 +0100
Message-ID	<200420151022559709%timstreater@greenbee.net>
In reply to	#29093

In article <mh23jg$i5o$16@news.albasani.net>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
>cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
>
>> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
>> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
>
>I belatedly understand what you are saying,

No you don't.

>which is that the default 
>text editor has /two different menus for saving files/,

No it doesn't.

>one for what 
>Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other 
>to *Save As* a variety of other formats.
>
>1. Format > Make Plain/Rich Text

This saves nothing at all. It merely changes the mode in which the app
operates, from RTF to plain text.

-- 
"... you must remember that if you're trying to propagate a creed of 
 poverty, gentleness and tolerance,  you need a very rich, powerful,
 authoritarian organisation to do it."             - Vice-Pope Eric

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#29206

From	Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com>
Date	2015-04-20 14:08 +0000
Message-ID	<cpkfjrFg4haU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#29093

On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
>
>> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
>> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
>
> I belatedly understand what you are saying, which is that the default 
> text editor has /two different menus for saving files/, one for what 
> Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other 
> to *Save As* a variety of other formats.

You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at all
with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the document
that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are active for
that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with saving a *file*

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#29248

From	jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet)
Date	2015-04-21 03:36 +1200
Message-ID	<1m37kic.3z2nq0onu85tN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>
In reply to	#29206

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2015-04-20, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message
> > cpjdpiF7dq8U9@mid.individual.net
> >
> >> Nope. Wrong again. There is no need to save the document *before* you
> >> set the format, dummy. Set the format, and then save. Duh.
> >
> > I belatedly understand what you are saying, which is that the default
> > text editor has /two different menus for saving files/, one for what
> > Apple calls *formatting* a file (to either ASCII or RTF), and the other
> > to *Save As* a variety of other formats.
> 
> You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at all
> with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the document
> that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are active for
> that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with saving a *file*

Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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#29264

From	David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Date	2015-04-20 13:16 -0500
Message-ID	<alpine.OSX.2.20.1504201244310.57809@mako.ath.cx>
In reply to	#29248

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message

On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 03:36 +1200, 
 in article <1m37kic.3z2nq0onu85tN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, 
 Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

>> You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at 
>> all with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the 
>> document that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are 
>> active for that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with 
>> saving a *file*

> Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?

Strictly speaking, text editors can only edit text files.  Editing 
rich text files require applications which can edit rich text, such 
as word processors.

This means TextEdit isn't exactly a text editor, in the classic sense, 
although it can be used to edit text files.

The first time I fired up an OS X version of TextEdit, I, too, was 
taken aback, when seeing it's default was as a rich text editor.  I 
found the name of the application somewhat ironic.

Where Adam went completely astray was in _assuming_ that the TextEdit 
save dialog would be identical to those found in Word.  Save dialogs 
with the same kind of drop-down File Type list in the Save dialog, 
which includes .txt, can be found in NeoOffice or OpenOffice word 
processors.

-- 
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
 Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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#29267

From	Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
Date	2015-04-21 09:07 +1200
Message-ID	<210420150907257054%YourName@YourISP.com>
In reply to	#29264

In article <alpine.OSX.2.20.1504201244310.57809@mako.ath.cx>, David
Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 April 2015 03:36 +1200, 
>  in article <1m37kic.3z2nq0onu85tN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, 
>  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> You still don't get it. The format command doesn't do anything at 
> >> all with a file on disk, silly. It simply changes the format of the 
> >> document that is currently open, and the TextEdit features that are 
> >> active for that document. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with 
> >> saving a *file*
> >
> > Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?
> 
> Strictly speaking, text editors can only edit text files.  Editing 
> rich text files require applications which can edit rich text, such 
> as word processors.
> 
> This means TextEdit isn't exactly a text editor, in the classic sense, 
> although it can be used to edit text files.
> 
> The first time I fired up an OS X version of TextEdit, I, too, was 
> taken aback, when seeing it's default was as a rich text editor.  I 
> found the name of the application somewhat ironic.

That would mean the name "Word" is also ironic because you can add
pictures?!?



> Where Adam went completely astray was in _assuming_ that the TextEdit 
> save dialog would be identical to those found in Word.  Save dialogs 
> with the same kind of drop-down File Type list in the Save dialog, 
> which includes .txt, can be found in NeoOffice or OpenOffice word 
> processors.

In the iWork applications to save in any other format you have to use
the Export option rather than Save / Save As.

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#29268

From	gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz>
Date	2015-04-20 16:18 -0700
Message-ID	<2015042016182312911-xxx@yyyzzz>
In reply to	#29264

On 2015-04-20 18:16:13 +0000, David Ritz said:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message

------BEGIN UNNECESSARY AND IRRELEVANT NOISE-----
Pastas good but don't cook it too long
BingoWasADoggo: Blimty blamty tiddly tampty

>> Has he never used an editor with formatting options before?
> 
> Strictly speaking, text editors can only edit text files.  Editing
> rich text files require applications which can edit rich text, such
> as word processors.

If you really want to be overly literal then word processors can only 
process words.  For the text of the words you'd need to load them into 
a text editor again. Or, thinking, larger, you might want to consider a 
paragraph constructor.

> This means TextEdit isn't exactly a text editor, in the classic sense,
> although it can be used to edit text files.

I'm not sure what is meant by classic in this case except 
"unnecessarily confusing" and pointlessly literal.

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#29281

From	dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com>
Date	2015-04-21 11:38 +1000
Message-ID	<do_ray_me-1CEBA5.11380721042015@aioe.org>
In reply to	#29268

In article <2015042016182312911-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> If you really want to be overly literal then word processors can only 
> process words.  For the text of the words you'd need to load them into 
> a text editor again. Or, thinking, larger, you might want to consider a 
> paragraph constructor.

You will not have the very latter until Artificial Intelligence gets a 
whole lot better.

(btw, it's a nice idea for lots of little apps that do very limited 
things very well rather than ones that try to do everything for 
everyone. It makes the learning curve for each easier, for a start.)

-- 
dorayme

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#29302

From	gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz>
Date	2015-04-21 10:06 -0700
Message-ID	<2015042110061876504-xxx@yyyzzz>
In reply to	#29281

On 2015-04-21 01:38:07 +0000, dorayme said:

> In article <2015042016182312911-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> 
>> If you really want to be overly literal then word processors can only
>> process words.  For the text of the words you'd need to load them into
>> a text editor again. Or, thinking, larger, you might want to consider a
>> paragraph constructor.
> 
> You will not have the very latter until Artificial Intelligence gets a
> whole lot better.
> 
> (btw, it's a nice idea for lots of little apps that do very limited
> things very well rather than ones that try to do everything for
> everyone. It makes the learning curve for each easier, for a start.)

I agree--but it doesn't really make any difference if you just make 
pronouncements that big apps are *intended* to do little tasks.

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csiph-web

How do mac users create a blank text file where you want it?

Contents

#29168

#29211

#29019

#29022

#29041

#29046

#29059

#29067

#29093

#29104

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