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Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation

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  Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-04-30 07:40 -0500
    Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation BeadyBeady Bee <beadybeadybee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 08:38 -0700
      Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation AJL <1245nomail@none.com> - 2011-05-01 21:57 -0700
        Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation BeadyBeady Bee <beadybeadybee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-02 21:40 -0700
      Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation "BillW50" <BillW50@aol.kom> - 2011-05-05 09:35 -0500
        Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation wrat@panix.com (the wharf rat) - 2011-05-05 18:22 +0000
          Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation BeadyBeady Bee <beadybeadybee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:27 -0700
        Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation BeadyBeady Bee <beadybeadybee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:27 -0700

#172 — Re: Poll: How much battery drainage in shutdown/hibernation

In 
news:4a5fbd03-0550-46dd-b6ce-99a40d0a9ef0@r20g2000yqd.googlegroups.com,
BeadyBeady Bee wrote:
> On Apr 28, 9:28 pm, BeadyBeady Bee <beadybeady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 28, 7:02 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> BeadyBeady Bee wrote:
>>>> After months of testing, I finally submitted my laptop for
>>>> troubleshooting. A new laptop with a 100% charged battery
>>>> discharges 5+ percent/day. A graph of my test data indicates that
>>>> it will roughly discharge the battery in 17-20 days. This is in
>>>> hibernation (whereas it's just over 4% in shutdown). The vendor's
>>>> position is that this is normal because things like the clock
>>>> require power. All I know is that my previous laptops were not
>>>> nearly that voracious in hibernation and shutdown. The discharge
>>>> was so unnoticable that I never bothered to test them. My bad, as
>>>> I have no baseline figures (and this isn't even normally spec'd)
>>
>>>> I was hoping to do the wisdom-of-crowds thing and get people's
>>>> anecdote with their laptops (when new). How long have you found
>>>> that it takes for a laptop in shutdown or hibernation to completely
>>>> discharge a 100% charged battery? Most people probably never tested
>>>> this before, but perhaps you can give a gut-feel for the ball park
>>>> percentage discharge per day in hibernation or shutdown.
>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>
>>> as you give zero input on the make/model of the laptop or the
>>> battery technology involved, it's gonna be really hard to help you.
>>> I can tell you that it VARIES between models.
>>> Your problem seems to be shutdown, cause hibernate don't add much.
>>
>>> You might want to look into BIOS options.
>>> Some things like wake on lan, if enabled might draw power in
>>> shutdown.
>>
>>> If I'm not gonna use a laptop in 20 days, I take out the battery.
>>
>> It's a Toshiba Satellite A660. But I'm also interested in anecdotes
>> from other models so that I can get an idea of the spread.
>>
>> I disabled Wakeup-On-LAN and Sleep&charge (complete story
>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.laptops/browse_frm/thread/167...).
>
> I should add that the problem is not the battery, since there is no
> noticable discharge when the battery is removed from the laptop.  So
> this is a poll of the discharge caused by power draw from the laptop
> in hibernation and/or shutdown, with Wakeup-on-LAN and USB
> sleep&charge deactivated.  Thanks.

This was very common problem with laptops with Celeron CPUs and still 
is. And for them, it seems like if you pull out the battery for a few 
seconds after it has been shutdown. Then reinsert the battery it was 
usually just fine. The story I heard was that most Celeron CPUs was not 
totally shutoff. They have different sleep modes and call them S1, S2, 
etc.

Later I started to hear other complains about the battery draining after 
a couple of weeks in other CPU equipped laptops. I can't swear to it, 
but I believe they are all Intel CPUs. And it wasn't any of the Centrino 
types I don't think, but the I3, I5, or I7 ones I believe. So what type 
do you have?

I know this battery draining thing is a big issue for many. Although it 
normally doesn't bother me at all. As I normally don't have any 
batteries in my over dozen laptops anyway. And when I use one, it is 
usually on AC on an UPS supply and still without batteries. Only when I 
am running portable, do I ever have a battery installed.

-- 
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo 1.83G - 2GB - Windows XP SP3 

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#178

On Apr 30, 8:40 am, "BillW50" <Bill...@aol.kom> wrote:
> Innews:4a5fbd03-0550-46dd-b6ce-99a40d0a9ef0@r20g2000yqd.googlegroups.com,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> BeadyBeady Bee wrote:
> > On Apr 28, 9:28 pm, BeadyBeady Bee <beadybeady...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Apr 28, 7:02 pm, mike <spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> BeadyBeady Bee wrote:
> >>>> After months of testing, I finally submitted my laptop for
> >>>> troubleshooting. A new laptop with a 100% charged battery
> >>>> discharges 5+ percent/day. A graph of my test data indicates that
> >>>> it will roughly discharge the battery in 17-20 days. This is in
> >>>> hibernation (whereas it's just over 4% in shutdown). The vendor's
> >>>> position is that this is normal because things like the clock
> >>>> require power. All I know is that my previous laptops were not
> >>>> nearly that voracious in hibernation and shutdown. The discharge
> >>>> was so unnoticable that I never bothered to test them. My bad, as
> >>>> I have no baseline figures (and this isn't even normally spec'd)
>
> >>>> I was hoping to do the wisdom-of-crowds thing and get people's
> >>>> anecdote with their laptops (when new). How long have you found
> >>>> that it takes for a laptop in shutdown or hibernation to completely
> >>>> discharge a 100% charged battery? Most people probably never tested
> >>>> this before, but perhaps you can give a gut-feel for the ball park
> >>>> percentage discharge per day in hibernation or shutdown.
>
> >>>> Thanks.
>
> >>> as you give zero input on the make/model of the laptop or the
> >>> battery technology involved, it's gonna be really hard to help you.
> >>> I can tell you that it VARIES between models.
> >>> Your problem seems to be shutdown, cause hibernate don't add much.
>
> >>> You might want to look into BIOS options.
> >>> Some things like wake on lan, if enabled might draw power in
> >>> shutdown.
>
> >>> If I'm not gonna use a laptop in 20 days, I take out the battery.
>
> >> It's a Toshiba Satellite A660. But I'm also interested in anecdotes
> >> from other models so that I can get an idea of the spread.
>
> >> I disabled Wakeup-On-LAN and Sleep&charge (complete story
> >> athttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.laptops/browse_frm/thread/167...).
>
> > I should add that the problem is not the battery, since there is no
> > noticable discharge when the battery is removed from the laptop.  So
> > this is a poll of the discharge caused by power draw from the laptop
> > in hibernation and/or shutdown, with Wakeup-on-LAN and USB
> > sleep&charge deactivated.  Thanks.
>
> This was very common problem with laptops with Celeron CPUs and still
> is. And for them, it seems like if you pull out the battery for a few
> seconds after it has been shutdown. Then reinsert the battery it was
> usually just fine. The story I heard was that most Celeron CPUs was not
> totally shutoff. They have different sleep modes and call them S1, S2,
> etc.
>
> Later I started to hear other complains about the battery draining after
> a couple of weeks in other CPU equipped laptops. I can't swear to it,
> but I believe they are all Intel CPUs. And it wasn't any of the Centrino
> types I don't think, but the I3, I5, or I7 ones I believe. So what type
> do you have?
>
> I know this battery draining thing is a big issue for many. Although it
> normally doesn't bother me at all. As I normally don't have any
> batteries in my over dozen laptops anyway. And when I use one, it is
> usually on AC on an UPS supply and still without batteries. Only when I
> am running portable, do I ever have a battery installed.

Hi, Bill,

Sorry, I don't think I was all that clear in my other thread.  Yes, I
did pop out the battery for a few seconds before reinserting.  The
problem persists despite doing that.

The CPU is an i5.

To me, it seems to be a design flaw for a laptop to discharge the
battery when shut down or hibernated.  What that implies is that the
battery is actually powering some function in hibernation or
shutdown.  However, we all know (I hope) that if you remove the
battery for some time before reinsertion, it shouldn't affect the
resumption from hibernation one bit (or the boot up, in the case of
shut down).  All that is served by the discharging battery in
hibernation/shutdown is to require the user to remove the battery if
there is any chance that he/she will not use that laptop ahead of time
(something that is not always known or planned ahead of time).  If you
put away the laptop with the expectation of using it soon, but it
turns out that you don't...you could end up discharging the battery.
Unfortunately, it is inadvisable to frequently discharge modern
batteries to zero because is harmful to the lifetime of the battery.

As well, if you're called away on a trip, your travel preparations
checklist will include:

   1) Unplug laptop (in case a thunder storm occurs while you are
away)

   2) Clear desk of papers enough to unplug cables to the laptop and
flip it over to remove battery

Considering that things are pretty hectic prior to travel, requirement
#2 is just an added unwelcome complication that should be unnecessary
if the laptop was properly designed.  The real irony seems to be that
laptops were properly designed (at least in this respect) in the past.

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#179

On Sun, 1 May 2011 08:38:53 -0700 (PDT), BeadyBeady Bee
<beadybeadybee@gmail.com> wrote:

>To me, it seems to be a design flaw for a laptop to discharge the
>battery when shut down or hibernated.  

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Toshiba-Satellite-A660-151-Notebook.33805.0.html

The A660 in this review is is said to use 0.4 watts when off. Further
he says it has a 48 watt hour battery. That would give this LT
considerably less than a week. However I find those figures hard to
believe, maybe I 'm missing something.

>What that implies is that the
>battery is actually powering some function in hibernation or
>shutdown.  

Well at least the power switch circuitry needs power or you couldn't
turn it back on. But a half watt??

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#181

On May 2, 12:57 am, AJL <1245nom...@none.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2011 08:38:53 -0700 (PDT), BeadyBeady Bee
>
> <beadybeady...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >To me, it seems to be a design flaw for a laptop to discharge the
> >battery when shut down or hibernated.  
>
> http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Toshiba-Satellite-A660-151-Notebo...
>
> The A660 in this review is is said to use 0.4 watts when off. Further
> he says it has a 48 watt hour battery. That would give this LT
> considerably less than a week. However I find those figures hard to
> believe, maybe I 'm missing something.
>
> >What that implies is that the
> >battery is actually powering some function in hibernation or
> >shutdown.  
>
> Well at least the power switch circuitry needs power or you couldn't
> turn it back on. But a half watt??

You're right.  0.4W and 48W.hr means 5 days to fully discharge.  I
don't experience it *that* bad. Still hoping to get representative
anecdotes, though.

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#184

In 
news:dcf369c6-1ceb-4b11-b84f-76ca8c5ca1bd@35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com,
BeadyBeady Bee wrote:
> Hi, Bill,
>
> Sorry, I don't think I was all that clear in my other thread.  Yes, I
> did pop out the battery for a few seconds before reinserting.  The
> problem persists despite doing that.
>
> The CPU is an i5.
>
> To me, it seems to be a design flaw for a laptop to discharge the
> battery when shut down or hibernated.  What that implies is that the
> battery is actually powering some function in hibernation or
> shutdown.  However, we all know (I hope) that if you remove the
> battery for some time before reinsertion, it shouldn't affect the
> resumption from hibernation one bit (or the boot up, in the case of
> shut down).  All that is served by the discharging battery in
> hibernation/shutdown is to require the user to remove the battery if
> there is any chance that he/she will not use that laptop ahead of time
> (something that is not always known or planned ahead of time).  If you
> put away the laptop with the expectation of using it soon, but it
> turns out that you don't...you could end up discharging the battery.
> Unfortunately, it is inadvisable to frequently discharge modern
> batteries to zero because is harmful to the lifetime of the battery.
>
> As well, if you're called away on a trip, your travel preparations
> checklist will include:
>
>    1) Unplug laptop (in case a thunder storm occurs while you are
> away)
>
>    2) Clear desk of papers enough to unplug cables to the laptop and
> flip it over to remove battery
>
> Considering that things are pretty hectic prior to travel, requirement
> #2 is just an added unwelcome complication that should be unnecessary
> if the laptop was properly designed.  The real irony seems to be that
> laptops were properly designed (at least in this respect) in the past.

Well I don't disagree with you one bit. But this deal of off doesn't 
mean off started way back in the old TV vacuum tube days. And I forgot 
which company started it. But some TVs never turned off the vacuum tube 
heaters (although they ran at a lower voltage than the normal operating 
voltage was). So why did they do this? Simple, to allow almost instant 
on when you turned on the TV.

This practice has continued to this very day. Lots of devices never 
turns everything off when you turn them off. If they run off of AC, you 
need an external power switch. And if they run off of batteries, you 
have to remove the batteries.

Sure some devices uses so little power that you probably don't notice 
any power drain. But some are not so nice. Take my Palm IIIc for 
example. There is no real power off. As it is either living in standby 
or on. You have no other choice. And living in standby (the closest 
thing to off), drains the battery in about two weeks. And you have to 
disassemble the Palm to disconnect the battery. Thus why I leave it 
connected all of the time. But I do keep it on the charger most of the 
time because of this.

My Asus 701/702 netbooks also has a battery drain problem. Which also 
drains the battery in about a two week period of time when off. Also 
odd, even without a battery installed and they are off, they are drawing 
1.5 watts of power from the AC. Although I have to admit, the USB ports 
still has power under these conditions. So that probably explains what 
most of that 1.5 watts are be used for.

My Gateway MX6124 laptops also drain the battery in about 2 weeks being 
off. I never tested these Gateway M465 laptops, but I wouldn't be 
surprised if they drain the battery too.

So I am with you that I too believe there should be an option for a real 
off on all devices. But I am afraid most manufactures care very much if 
we want this or not. :-(

-- 
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo 1.83G - 2GB - Windows XP SP3 

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#185

In article <ipuckj$op1$1@dont-email.me>, BillW50 <BillW50@aol.kom> wrote:
>In 
>Sure some devices uses so little power that you probably don't notice 
>any power drain. But some are not so nice. Take my Palm IIIc for 
>example. There is no real power off. As it is either living in standby 

	To maintian the data in memory so you don't need to resync it every
time.  I'd imagine that if you turn off Wake on (LAN PCI USB IR ETC) and
the always on USB option you could reduce hibernation power draw a bunch.

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#187

On May 5, 2:22 pm, w...@panix.com (the wharf rat) wrote:
> In article <ipuckj$op...@dont-email.me>, BillW50 <Bill...@aol.kom> wrote:
> >In
> >Sure some devices uses so little power that you probably don't notice
> >any power drain. But some are not so nice. Take my Palm IIIc for
> >example. There is no real power off. As it is either living in standby
>
>         To maintian the data in memory so you don't need to resync it every
> time.  I'd imagine that if you turn off Wake on (LAN PCI USB IR ETC) and
> the always on USB option you could reduce hibernation power draw a bunch.

That's one of the first things I did, to disable Wakeup-on-LAN and USB
sleep & charge.

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#186

On May 5, 10:35 am, "BillW50" <Bill...@aol.kom> wrote:
> Innews:dcf369c6-1ceb-4b11-b84f-76ca8c5ca1bd@35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> BeadyBeady Bee wrote:
> > Hi, Bill,
>
> > Sorry, I don't think I was all that clear in my other thread.  Yes, I
> > did pop out the battery for a few seconds before reinserting.  The
> > problem persists despite doing that.
>
> > The CPU is an i5.
>
> > To me, it seems to be a design flaw for a laptop to discharge the
> > battery when shut down or hibernated.  What that implies is that the
> > battery is actually powering some function in hibernation or
> > shutdown.  However, we all know (I hope) that if you remove the
> > battery for some time before reinsertion, it shouldn't affect the
> > resumption from hibernation one bit (or the boot up, in the case of
> > shut down).  All that is served by the discharging battery in
> > hibernation/shutdown is to require the user to remove the battery if
> > there is any chance that he/she will not use that laptop ahead of time
> > (something that is not always known or planned ahead of time).  If you
> > put away the laptop with the expectation of using it soon, but it
> > turns out that you don't...you could end up discharging the battery.
> > Unfortunately, it is inadvisable to frequently discharge modern
> > batteries to zero because is harmful to the lifetime of the battery.
>
> > As well, if you're called away on a trip, your travel preparations
> > checklist will include:
>
> >    1) Unplug laptop (in case a thunder storm occurs while you are
> > away)
>
> >    2) Clear desk of papers enough to unplug cables to the laptop and
> > flip it over to remove battery
>
> > Considering that things are pretty hectic prior to travel, requirement
> > #2 is just an added unwelcome complication that should be unnecessary
> > if the laptop was properly designed.  The real irony seems to be that
> > laptops were properly designed (at least in this respect) in the past.
>
> Well I don't disagree with you one bit. But this deal of off doesn't
> mean off started way back in the old TV vacuum tube days. And I forgot
> which company started it. But some TVs never turned off the vacuum tube
> heaters (although they ran at a lower voltage than the normal operating
> voltage was). So why did they do this? Simple, to allow almost instant
> on when you turned on the TV.
>
> This practice has continued to this very day. Lots of devices never
> turns everything off when you turn them off. If they run off of AC, you
> need an external power switch. And if they run off of batteries, you
> have to remove the batteries.
>
> Sure some devices uses so little power that you probably don't notice
> any power drain. But some are not so nice. Take my Palm IIIc for
> example. There is no real power off. As it is either living in standby
> or on. You have no other choice. And living in standby (the closest
> thing to off), drains the battery in about two weeks. And you have to
> disassemble the Palm to disconnect the battery. Thus why I leave it
> connected all of the time. But I do keep it on the charger most of the
> time because of this.
>
> My Asus 701/702 netbooks also has a battery drain problem. Which also
> drains the battery in about a two week period of time when off. Also
> odd, even without a battery installed and they are off, they are drawing
> 1.5 watts of power from the AC. Although I have to admit, the USB ports
> still has power under these conditions. So that probably explains what
> most of that 1.5 watts are be used for.
>
> My Gateway MX6124 laptops also drain the battery in about 2 weeks being
> off. I never tested these Gateway M465 laptops, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if they drain the battery too.
>
> So I am with you that I too believe there should be an option for a real
> off on all devices. But I am afraid most manufactures care very much if
> we want this or not. :-(

Hmm, interesting anecdote.  I must have just been tremendously lucky.
My only other two laptops never drew any noticable power when
hibernated or off.  Dell Inspiron 8000 and Compaq nc8230.

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