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Re: Fresh packaging ideas

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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The following bytes were arranged on 20 Jan 2012 by Theo Markettos :

> In comp.sys.acorn.apps Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > My intention isn't to make it clever at all.  Hardcoding a load of
> > bodges in the manager is asking for trouble - it should simply take a
> > 'best guess' stab.  In 90% of cases, simply merging any apps found in
> > the zip named !Boot, !Fonts or !System with their current equivalents
> > and offering a 'Save as' dialogue box for everything else will do
> > perfectly well.
>
> OK, let's measure it.  I take the list at:
> http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Recommended_software
> since that's short and relatively recently updated, and has a high Google
> ranking.  I'm skipping the commercial programs and taking them in the order
> they're listed on that page [first 5 sections of actual programs].  I'm not
> installing stuff, I'm just reading the instructions.  Page down a bit to cut
> to the chase.

[snip]

That's certainly a bit of an eccentric list of 'recommended software',
although, I suppose, not entirely surprising when I see what website it
came from.  A lot of it's outdated (Messenger), incompatible (LIRC) or
redundant from the perspective of a new RISC OS user (Firefox).  I
certainly wouldn't include Vim or Nettle in any shopping list for the
newbie casual user.  One rather glaring absence is DigitalCD, which
probably has the most nightmarish installation procedure of the lot.

That reminds me: if there isn't already (I've never found one), there
needs to be a utility to automate merging of MimeMap files.

The thing about considering 'recommended' software, even allowing for
the peculiar choices in your list, is that, due to the frequently
complex functions that RISC OS's best-loved software performs, it
follows that they have the most complex install and upgrade procedures,
which skews your statistics substantially.  You can't compare the
installation of StrongED with that of, say, UnitConv.  And once you've
got NetSurf, StrongED/Zap, StrongHelp, DigitalCD, Director/StrongMen,
give or take a few, you've pretty much exhausted the
common-but-complex-to-install software on offer.  The tricky first step
will be getting all the major freeware on board, because I've never
pretended that faked-up packaging would be suitable for anything
non-trivial to install.

Just as it takes a certain 'critical mass' of software upgrades to
persuade people to buy a new, non-backward-compatible computer, so I
don't think we can decently expect anyone to seriously use packaging
until the essentials are packaged.

A quick browse through my own website's downloads folder (the home of
Infozip, incidentally) suggests that, once C library and Toolbox
dependencies are taken out, a small minority is dependent on components
not distributed in the same zip, and most installations is a simple
matter of drag and drop.  Then again, I wouldn't call most of that
'recommended' software (except insofar as I recommend a lot of it).

To give you an idea of what sort of software I consider suitable for
automatic installation, here's a quick browse through one directory on
my hard disc (you can probably guess which one):

ArtToSpr: Requires Toolbox/AWRender
BMPSprite: Trivial
Calibre: Trivial
ChangeFSI: Trivial/bundled
Cogs: Trivial (personal guarantee of author)
ExifEdit: Toolbox/trivial
FSI_Batch: Trivial
Grab2: Toolbox/trivial
OpenGridPro: Trivial
OpenVector: Trivial
PhotoFiler: Trivial (AWRender optional)
Etc. etc.

No, of course automatic installation isn't a suitable replacement for
packaging, but until such time as everything is packaged, it can fill
the gap in most cases.

NB: You should take care not to confuse the principle of 'running out of
the box' with 'working out of the box'.  MBBack, for example, refuses to
run until you configure a list of backdrops to display, but that doesn't
mean you can't install it by drag and drop - it'll even automatically
create all the files in Scrap and Choices that it requires when first
run.

> > I'm already thinking a sort of 'Preview' window, to allow you to see
> > where everything in the zip is going to end up, is necessary anyway, and
> > in the case of zips without instructions it should probably be made
> > compulsory.  Then, if it gets it wrong, you can cancel the process and
> > install manually - but that won't happen very often.
>
> The difficulty with this is it doesn't scale.  Fine for 2 programs, a pain
> for 20, a nightmare for 200.

It doesn't have to.  How would you find yourself installing more than
three or four programs - absolute maximum - at once?  The only plausible
circumstance is the setting-up of a virgin system, and (as your survey
established) non-directed installation really wouldn't work for a lot of
the software you'd generally install by default, such as Zap.

> > The problem with that is that said metadata would need to be duplicated
> > across all packages which depend on app B.  Again, I think that would be
> > asking for trouble.  If the manager can't decide, it should simply ask
> > the user.
>
> The metadata could be picked up from somewhere else potentially (equivalent
> to packaging it under this scheme).  This also isn't very friendly for new
> users (who may not have the skills to follow installation instructions).

I suppose it'd be possible to have the metadata hosted separately from
the zip, but by the time you've got to that stage you have to ask
yourself why the software isn't packaged in the first place.  This also
wouldn't be helpful in cases where the installation is so complex it
requires a script.

I suppose any installation scripts could be stored actually *in* the
metadata file, as star commands (with a few system variables set up
before execution), which would solve that problem.  I haven't really
given any thought about scripting yet, but I suppose that software
could, in extremis, be packaged by the back door while not moving from
its original webspace, simply by distributing a script to take care of
the nasty bits.

> > I'd like to see no compulsory metadata within the archive itself at all
> > (especially given that the RiscPkg.Control file is just a subset of the
> > information in the server's own Index file), just a skeleton !Boot
> > structure in the root, with everything else being files to install.  The
> > problem with that is that it eliminates the ability to install
> > 'offline', since you don't know what version it is, what its
> > dependencies are, etc.  Possibly there could be a one-line file
> > containing the package URL, but this would still make software pretty
> > much uninstallable on RISC OS computers without network connections
> > (yes, there are quite a few).
>
> How do you tie a timestamped archive (foo.zip 2012-01-20 20:54:33) to
> version information?  How do you know how it differs in version from
> (foo.zip 2011-12-22 15:22:55).  It differs, yes, but how do I tie the
> 'pointer' metadata file to each of these?  Hashes is one way, I suppose, to
> check if the contents have changed.  But if the contents /have/ changed
> (which could be as simple as changing the datestamps on the files in the
> Zip, rather than anything more) what does that signify?

I don't understand your problem here.  I can only assume we're talking
at cross-purposes (see below)

> One issue with your check-the-datestamp idea is that authors tend to call
> zipfiles progname-v123.zip not progname.zip - a script checking this won't
> notice that progname-v124.zip has been released.  That might be fine if you
> insist on a 'pointer' file, but then someone has to update that file for
> each update.

None of my zips do that, but, yes, that would be a problem.

> > I really need to set out all this in one place somewhere, because I can
> > tell people are getting very confused...
>
> That would be helpful :)  I think we're starting to emit more heat and not
> much more light...

From reading your response, as well as Matthew's, everybody seems to
have jumped to the mistaken conclusion that I've performed a volte face
and am now rejecting the idea of metadata altogether.  This is *not* the
case.  Checking the datestamp and attempting to install automatically is
*not* my proposal for a packaging system - it's an add-on to my proposal
for an actual packaging system, which, when it works (which it won't for
all software), gives existing non-packaged software a leg up into the
real thing, encouraging takeup of the manager by users who can still get
most of their old software, even the ones which haven't been packaged
yet.

I hope that the ranks of such software will dwindle as time goes by,
just as most software is now 32-bit compatible, but it will be a
majority at first - which will harm takeup by users, which will harm
takeup by developers who can't see why they should support something
hardly anybody uses, which will harm takeup, and so on in a vicious
circle.  Bodging in as much of the missing software as possible is
better than denying access to it altogether.

-- 
  __<^>__   === RISC OS is a work of art.  Some people adore it,  ===
 / _   _ \  === others can't see the point of it, and it's really ===
( ( |_| ) ) === expensive.                                        ===
 \_>   <_/  ======================= Martin Bazley ===================

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Thread

Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-15 17:02 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jim Nagel <jimnewsm10d@abbeypress.co.uk> - 2012-01-16 11:39 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-16 05:49 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2012-01-16 19:01 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 13:04 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-17 23:01 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2012-01-18 11:27 +0000
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 15:16 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:32 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 07:37 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas News Poster <workstuff@mail.com> - 2012-01-16 11:46 -0800
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-16 14:39 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:23 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-18 05:04 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 21:33 +0000
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas "David Holden" <SpamBin@apdl.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:03 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 11:46 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-19 05:45 -0800
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas News poster <news@mistymornings.net> - 2012-01-19 19:35 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:09 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 19:36 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:27 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:01 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:22 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:02 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jess Hampshire <jesshampshire@googlemail.com> - 2012-01-23 19:43 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-23 21:30 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 16:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-25 18:15 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:02 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 19:48 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:44 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-20 21:10 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 00:51 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:39 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 15:34 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:32 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:44 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 13:53 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:56 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 13:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Patric@invalid.com - 2012-01-20 16:16 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 09:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> - 2012-01-21 11:00 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 19:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:18 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-22 07:51 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Frank de Bruijn <zuiderduin@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 08:13 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 05:06 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-23 21:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-24 05:05 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 22:41 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-26 15:33 +0100
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 06:39 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 09:26 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 15:20 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Gavin Wraith <gavin@wra1th.plus.com> - 2012-01-17 16:33 +0000

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