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[OT] Play tic-tac-toe using e-Letters or i-Letters!

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  [OT] Play tic-tac-toe using e-Letters or i-Letters! "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 19:08 +0800
    Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 12:31 +0800
      Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-11 16:06 +0000
        Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Winning? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 00:11 +0800
          Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Winning? Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-11 11:35 -0500
        Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2016-12-11 09:32 -0700
          Re: [OT] Games must have winner? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 12:10 +0800
        Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-11 17:26 +0000
          Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: computers vs humans "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 12:12 +0800
        Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2016-12-11 20:23 -0500
          Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 12:14 +0800
            Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 08:41 +0000
              Tic-tac-toe as an 100% electronic game? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 18:44 +0800
          Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 10:02 -0800
          Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe? Sodoku? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-12-16 12:52 +0800

#7031 — [OT] Play tic-tac-toe using e-Letters or i-Letters!

On 2/12/2016 2:11 PM, Pepe the Frog wrote:
 > .. junk ...

How about playing a simple, naive, turn-based games here using messages?
Tic-tac-toe is possibly a good starting point.

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BTW, an old movie that ends with a game of tic-tac-toe:

WarGames Official Trailer (1983) HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbqMuvnx5MU

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#7091 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

On 10/12/2016 11:29 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> You should start in the corner, not the center.

BTW, do you wanna to prove your claim? :)

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#7096 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:

> On 10/12/2016 11:29 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>> You should start in the corner, not the center.
>
> BTW, do you wanna to prove your claim? :)

If I remember correctly, there are more ways of winning if you start in
the corner (the proof is simply by counting games) and, since you can't
be forced to lose if you start there, you could argue that you might as
well do that.

If you start in the middle there are fewer games that you can win, but
it's also easier to see that you can't be forced to loose and I suspect
it's that which leads people to chose the middle.

By the way, why the cross post to alt.conspiracy?  Do you want to be
taken to be a crank?

-- 
Ben.

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#7097 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Winning?

Isn't this game always end in a draw?

Unless, one doesn't know this game, like the computer in the movie 
WarGames?

Do you wanna loop-playing the game? :)

On 12/12/2016 12:06 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
> If I remember correctly, there are more ways of winning if you start in
> the corner (the proof is simply by counting games) and, since you can't
> be forced to lose if you start there, you could argue that you might as
> well do that.
>
> If you start in the middle there are fewer games that you can win, but
> it's also easier to see that you can't be forced to loose and I suspect
> it's that which leads people to chose the middle.
>
> By the way, why the cross post to alt.conspiracy?  Do you want to be
> taken to be a crank?
>

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#7099 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Winning?

In article <o2jtpj$732$10@dont-email.me>, toylet.toylet@gmail.com 
says...
> 
> Isn't this game always end in a draw?
> 
> Unless, one doesn't know this game, like the computer in the movie 
> WarGames?
> 
>
If no one makes a mistake the game will always end in a draw.

There are certain ways to start off that may let you win if the other 
player does not know the game very well.

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#7098 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:06:30 +0000, Ben Bacarisse
<ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote:

>"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 10/12/2016 11:29 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>> You should start in the corner, not the center.
>>
>> BTW, do you wanna to prove your claim? :)
>
>If I remember correctly, there are more ways of winning if you start in
>the corner (the proof is simply by counting games) and, since you can't
>be forced to lose if you start there, you could argue that you might as
>well do that.
>
>If you start in the middle there are fewer games that you can win, but
>it's also easier to see that you can't be forced to loose and I suspect
>it's that which leads people to chose the middle.
>
>By the way, why the cross post to alt.conspiracy?  Do you want to be
>taken to be a crank?

"Mr." Man-wai Chang is nothing more than an annoying troll, with an
appropriate E-mail address >:-}
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

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#7106 — Re: [OT] Games must have winner?

On 12/12/2016 12:32 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> "Mr." Man-wai Chang is nothing more than an annoying troll, with an
> appropriate E-mail address >:-}

Because you only believe in victory and death?
You believe all games have winners and losers?

There is no draw nor peace? ;)

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#7101 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

On 11/12/16 16:06, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 10/12/2016 11:29 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>> You should start in the corner, not the center.
>>
>> BTW, do you wanna to prove your claim? :)
>
> If I remember correctly, there are more ways of winning if you start in
> the corner (the proof is simply by counting games) and, since you can't
> be forced to lose if you start there, you could argue that you might as
> well do that.

Playing the game against people is very different from playing it 
against a computer. You won't fool a well-written program, but people 
can be suckered into losing. And the first rule of suckering people is 
to start in a corner. If you start in the middle, they'll pretty well 
know how to force a draw. But if you start in a corner, they're less 
likely to correctly select a safe move. Of course it's impossible to 
demonstrate this over Usenet, especially to programmers, because nobody 
is going to post a move without analysing it to death first. But in the 
real world, people don't do that. They know it's a forced draw, they 
assume they can't lose, and they play carelessly --- and then they don't 
understand why they lost.

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#7107 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: computers vs humans

On 12/12/2016 1:26 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
> Playing the game against people is very different from playing it
> against a computer. You won't fool a well-written program, but people
> can be suckered into losing. And the first rule of suckering people is
> to start in a corner. If you start in the middle, they'll pretty well
> know how to force a draw. But if you start in a corner, they're less
> likely to correctly select a safe move. Of course it's impossible to
> demonstrate this over Usenet, especially to programmers, because nobody
> is going to post a move without analysing it to death first. But in the
> real world, people don't do that. They know it's a forced draw, they
> assume they can't lose, and they play carelessly --- and then they don't
> understand why they lost.

That depends on how the player program was written. Tic-tac-toe does NOT 
have too many combinations and matrix of moves. Putting them all in a 
database, and the computer program could just follow the pattern to make 
a draw.

So it's theoretically possible to "personalize" the program so that it 
is playing like a real human.

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#7105 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 10/12/2016 11:29 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>> You should start in the corner, not the center.
>>
>> BTW, do you wanna to prove your claim? :)
>
> If I remember correctly, there are more ways of winning if you start
> in the corner (the proof is simply by counting games) and, since you
> can't be forced to lose if you start there, you could argue that you
> might as well do that.
>
> If you start in the middle there are fewer games that you can win, but
> it's also easier to see that you can't be forced to loose and I
> suspect it's that which leads people to chose the middle.

I worked out every possible move when I was a kid.

If your first move is in the center, the other player can force a draw 
no matter where his second move is.

If your first move is in the corner, the other player can force a draw 
if his second move is in the center, but if his second move is anywhere 
else you can force a win.


> By the way, why the cross post to alt.conspiracy?  Do you want to be
> taken to be a crank?

He is.

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#7108 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

On 12/12/2016 9:23 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> I worked out every possible move when I was a kid.
>
> If your first move is in the center, the other player can force a draw
> no matter where his second move is.
>
> If your first move is in the corner, the other player can force a draw
> if his second move is in the center, but if his second move is anywhere
> else you can force a win.

Wanna prove this with a few games over messages? :)

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#7109 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

On 12/12/16 04:14, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 12/12/2016 9:23 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>> I worked out every possible move when I was a kid.
>>
>> If your first move is in the center, the other player can force a draw
>> no matter where his second move is.
>>
>> If your first move is in the corner, the other player can force a draw
>> if his second move is in the center, but if his second move is anywhere
>> else you can force a win.
>
> Wanna prove this with a few games over messages? :)

Perhaps you don't read too well, but it has already been explained that 
it is futile to attempt to demonstrate the human psychology of the game 
over Usenet, especially in a technical group, where people will 
inevitably analyse the state of the game before every article they post. 
People /don't/ do this when playing the game face-to-face.

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#7110 — Tic-tac-toe as an 100% electronic game?

On 12/12/2016 4:41 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
> Perhaps you don't read too well, but it has already been explained that
> it is futile to attempt to demonstrate the human psychology of the game
> over Usenet, especially in a technical group, where people will
> inevitably analyse the state of the game before every article they post.
> People /don't/ do this when playing the game face-to-face.

If an electronic gaming device had firmware, was it still electronics? :)

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#7129 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe strategy: Start in corners?

W dniu poniedziałek, 12 grudnia 2016 03:07:59 UTC+1 użytkownik Tom Del Rosso napisał:
> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> On 10/12/2016 11:29 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> >>> You should start in the corner, not the center.
> >>
> >> BTW, do you wanna to prove your claim? :)
> >
> > If I remember correctly, there are more ways of winning if you start
> > in the corner (the proof is simply by counting games) and, since you
> > can't be forced to lose if you start there, you could argue that you
> > might as well do that.
> >
> > If you start in the middle there are fewer games that you can win, but
> > it's also easier to see that you can't be forced to loose and I
> > suspect it's that which leads people to chose the middle.
> 
> I worked out every possible move when I was a kid.
> 
> If your first move is in the center, the other player can force a draw 
> no matter where his second move is.
> 

not true

if first one sets in the center and the second one sets
not in a corner he is lose

> If your first move is in the corner, the other player can force a draw 
> if his second move is in the center, but if his second move is anywhere 
> else you can force a win.
> 

may be true but it is not quite that second player
will take randomly from all the 8 fields, imo he is
statistically much more likely to take centre

so it is "likely to take not corner" vs 
"likely to take not centre"  - depends on who you play
but probably i personally would get in the centre 


> 
> > By the way, why the cross post to alt.conspiracy?  Do you want to be
> > taken to be a crank?
> 
> He is.

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#7165 — Re: [OT] Tic-tac-toe? Sodoku?

On 16/12/2016 11:36 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
>
> Each player compiles their own set which cannot contain numbers chosen
> by the other player. the winner is the first who has a set which has a
> subset with three elements that add to 15.  By numbering a
> tic-tac-toe board as a magic square this game translates directly to
> tic-tac-toe
>
>   6 7 2
>   1 5 9
>   8 3 4

Sodoku? :)

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