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How to get one interested in programming!

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  How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-06-29 22:49 -0700
    Re: How to get one interested in programming! "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-06-30 10:39 +0200
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-06-30 06:58 -0700
        Re: How to get one interested in programming! "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-06-30 23:17 +0200
        Re: How to get one interested in programming! blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-02 19:28 +0000
        Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 01:09 -0700
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-01 00:45 -0700
    Re: How to get one interested in programming! rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2011-06-30 10:18 +0100
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-01 00:49 -0700
        Re: How to get one interested in programming! Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-07-01 05:19 -0700
          Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 01:26 -0700
            Re: How to get one interested in programming! Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-07-03 06:38 -0700
              Re: How to get one interested in programming! Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-07-03 09:03 -0700
                Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 12:29 -0700
                  Re: How to get one interested in programming! Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-07-03 20:04 -0400
                    Re: How to get one interested in programming! "James" <no@spam.invalid> - 2011-07-03 17:06 -0700
                    Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 22:17 -0700
                      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 04:31 -0700
                        Re: How to get one interested in programming! "James" <no@spam.invalid> - 2011-07-11 22:23 -0700
                          Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-12 00:32 -0700
                            Re: How to get one interested in programming! "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-07-12 00:50 -0700
                              Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-13 00:36 -0700
                          Re: How to get one interested in programming! "Chris M. Thomasson" <cristom@charter.net> - 2011-07-12 00:52 -0700
                          Re: How to get one interested in programming! blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-07-12 23:39 +0000
        Re: How to get one interested in programming! "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2011-07-02 11:46 +0100
          Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 01:27 -0700
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 00:51 -0700
    Re: How to get one interested in programming! Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com> - 2011-06-30 09:52 -0400
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 00:50 -0700
    Re: How to get one interested in programming! Jongware <jongware@no-spam.plz> - 2011-06-30 17:05 +0200
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 01:16 -0700
    Re: How to get one interested in programming! JJ <jaejunks@googlemail.com> - 2011-07-01 02:31 +0700
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 01:20 -0700
    Re: How to get one interested in programming! Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-03 12:02 +0200
      Re: How to get one interested in programming! vaib <vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 12:07 -0700

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#555 — How to get one interested in programming!

Hey there,

Long time.

So I am faced with a rather strange problem this time. it's not
related to any coding task. I got interested in programming as a kid.
We used to get exercises to do in the class and the sense of
competition and making better programs was the kind of drive that got
me interested in programming.

Now I have a question for a friend of mine. Now she is a non-
programmer and has taken entry to a bachelors in technology course.
The only problem is that she hasn't got the kind of exposure one
should have for programming. She has never programmed and picking up
these think language books scares the shit out of her and I personally
think is not the way to go.

So how can I get her interested? I mean I thought that I could simply
provide her with a few very easy coding tasks like - printing
fibonacci, printing multiples of 3 and so on ...and then when she'd
see that she can actually solve something and see it happen on the
system then probably she'd find the drive for more!

Am I wrong in my approach? Is there any other approach like, you know,
building some small codes and then stitching them in the end that
could probably result in a small project one could a little excited
about?

What's your say on this? I only post on usenet when it's absolutely
necessary.

Thanking in anticipation.

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#557

* vaib, on 30.06.2011 07:49:
>
> Long time.
>
> So I am faced with a rather strange problem this time. it's not
> related to any coding task. I got interested in programming as a kid.
> We used to get exercises to do in the class and the sense of
> competition and making better programs was the kind of drive that got
> me interested in programming.
>
> Now I have a question for a friend of mine. Now she is a non-
> programmer and has taken entry to a bachelors in technology course.
> The only problem is that she hasn't got the kind of exposure one
> should have for programming. She has never programmed and picking up
> these think language books scares the shit out of her and I personally
> think is not the way to go.
>
> So how can I get her interested? I mean I thought that I could simply
> provide her with a few very easy coding tasks like - printing
> fibonacci, printing multiples of 3 and so on ...and then when she'd
> see that she can actually solve something and see it happen on the
> system then probably she'd find the drive for more!
>
> Am I wrong in my approach? Is there any other approach like, you know,
> building some small codes and then stitching them in the end that
> could probably result in a small project one could a little excited
> about?
>
> What's your say on this? I only post on usenet when it's absolutely
> necessary.

You don't provide much relevant information.

There are mental differences between males and females. To wit, very few 
programmers (or mathematicians, or physicists, or ...) are females. Whatever the 
cause  --  my personal theory has to do with how the brain forms models of 
things, for females more purely associative models that cannot easily be "run" 
or "evolved"  --  it means that you *probably* have an uphill battle.

I think the key must be to adapt your approach to the individual at hand. Use 
examples that at least in some aspects touch on things that she's interested in. 
Familiarity may be crucial (you state that she's scared by "think language 
books"), so perhaps start with web pages and such, and a bit of JavaScript.

Perhaps then Python and turtle graphics.

Be patient, and be flexible. Remember the statistics about female programmers. 
Depending on the individual, what you're trying *may* be an unnatural act.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

-- 
blog at <url: http://alfps.wordpress.com>

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#562

On 6/30/2011 1:39 AM, Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet wrote:
...
> There are mental differences between males and females. To wit, very few
> programmers (or mathematicians, or physicists, or ...) are females.
> Whatever the cause -- my personal theory has to do with how the brain
> forms models of things, for females more purely associative models that
> cannot easily be "run" or "evolved" -- it means that you *probably* have
> an uphill battle.
>
> I think the key must be to adapt your approach to the individual at
> hand. Use examples that at least in some aspects touch on things that
> she's interested in. Familiarity may be crucial (you state that she's
> scared by "think language books"), so perhaps start with web pages and
> such, and a bit of JavaScript.
>
> Perhaps then Python and turtle graphics.
>
> Be patient, and be flexible. Remember the statistics about female
> programmers. Depending on the individual, what you're trying *may* be an
> unnatural act.
...

Programming is an unnatural act for everyone. Cave men didn't do any
more programming than cave women. It is always a learned skill, not an
instinct, or even something like natural languages for which we have a
built-in learning skill.

When I got my first programming job, in 1970, many programmers were
women. Indeed, some of the best programmers I've ever met, including
Grace Hopper, were female. I would not have wanted to be the person to
try to tell her that her brain structure might be inherently unsuited
for programming.

The programming-as-a-boy-thing nonsense only appeared after it became
apparent that programming was important and a good career choice. Women
were considered fine at it when it was a small, esoteric, and not
particularly well paid field.

Early exposure to programming is no more necessary than being male. I
didn't write my first program until I was almost 18, and only did enough
programming to decide I liked it before getting my first programming
job. I worked in the computer industry, as a programmer and computer
architect, for over 30 years. I have both a master's degree and a
doctorate in computer science, and was an inventor on half a dozen
computer design patents.

I agree with rossum's practical advice, for anyone, male or female,
wanting to pick up programming. Work from existing interests. Separate
learning to represent tasks in terms of smaller tasks from learning the
syntax of a language.

Above all, tell her that she can do it, not that she can't. The
teacher's belief that the student can learn is important for learning
anything.

Patricia

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#565

* Patricia Shanahan, on 30.06.2011 15:58:
> On 6/30/2011 1:39 AM, Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet wrote:
> ...
>> There are mental differences between males and females. To wit, very few
>> programmers (or mathematicians, or physicists, or ...) are females.
>> Whatever the cause -- my personal theory has to do with how the brain
>> forms models of things, for females more purely associative models that
>> cannot easily be "run" or "evolved" -- it means that you *probably* have
>> an uphill battle.
>>
>> I think the key must be to adapt your approach to the individual at
>> hand. Use examples that at least in some aspects touch on things that
>> she's interested in. Familiarity may be crucial (you state that she's
>> scared by "think language books"), so perhaps start with web pages and
>> such, and a bit of JavaScript.
>>
>> Perhaps then Python and turtle graphics.
>>
>> Be patient, and be flexible. Remember the statistics about female
>> programmers. Depending on the individual, what you're trying *may* be an
>> unnatural act.
> ...
>
> Programming is an unnatural act for everyone. Cave men didn't do any
> more programming than cave women. It is always a learned skill, not an
> instinct, or even something like natural languages for which we have a
> built-in learning skill.
>
> When I got my first programming job, in 1970, many programmers were
> women. Indeed, some of the best programmers I've ever met, including
> Grace Hopper, were female. I would not have wanted to be the person to
> try to tell her that her brain structure might be inherently unsuited
> for programming.

Grace would probably never confuse the individual with the statistics. So I 
think she'd have no problem with the stats, being an admiral. It's part of what 
characterizes highly successful people, that they have no problem accepting 
reality, and don't cling to stats when they're presented with an individual.

It is the same phenomenon as in racism and as in what you might call the 
sillyness of "inverse racism", by which I mean the inability to accept stats 
because they could be argued by the feeble-minded to support racism etc.

For example, the stats tell you that almost all rapists are men. Still, 
presented with an individual man you can very soon dispense with the /a priori/ 
stats-based probability of having a rapist at hand. You can then use more 
refined probabilities based on interaction with the individual.

This is not a frivoluous example, by the way.

In Norway, the "inverse racism" I alluded to has for the last five years 
suppressed mention that 100% (with /no/ exception, not a single one) of all 
attack rapes in Oslo have been done by non-Western people. In particular, of 
Northern African origin, with a very high HIV infection rate. When the police 
this year did release the stats, the politics that followed (given that it would 
be irresponsible to not advice females to use sound judgment) were almost 
comical, with about 20 male members of parliament joining in a statement that a 
rape is not the fault of the victim  --  as if anyone had argued that.


> The programming-as-a-boy-thing nonsense only appeared after it became
> apparent that programming was important and a good career choice. Women
> were considered fine at it when it was a small, esoteric, and not
> particularly well paid field.

I have very good reasons to think it's not a value-set that is imposed on 
females, but rather a result of females freely choosing other professions.

E.g. at the Norwegian Technical University in Trondheim (NTNU), there have been 
at least two programs aimed at attracting females to programming.

The percentage of females in the profession is nevertheless abysmally low. I 
don't know how low. But e.g. in the Facebook group "C++ Enthusiasts" there are 
some 50 or 60 males and one female. In the Oslo C++ User Group there are 
likewise just a handful of females, I think three or four, out of 93 members.


> Early exposure to programming is no more necessary than being male. I
> didn't write my first program until I was almost 18, and only did enough
> programming to decide I liked it before getting my first programming
> job. I worked in the computer industry, as a programmer and computer
> architect, for over 30 years. I have both a master's degree and a
> doctorate in computer science, and was an inventor on half a dozen
> computer design patents.
>
> I agree with rossum's practical advice, for anyone, male or female,
> wanting to pick up programming. Work from existing interests.

Ah, then you agree with me,

   "I think the key must be to adapt your approach to the individual at hand.
    Use examples that at least in some aspects touch on things that she's
    interested in."

But I find it interesting that you mention rossum instead of me as the person 
that you believe that you agree with.

Which implies that somehow, in your mind, I've not argued what you agree with, 
but instead, as you percieve it, I've argued something different.

I think this mis-identification of my position states very loudly that you were 
not reading objectively.


   ---


And probably, that means that my writing now is utterly futile, for chances are 
that you'll be reading it in the same way, not registering what's really said.

Oh well.


> Separate
> learning to represent tasks in terms of smaller tasks from learning the
> syntax of a language.
>
> Above all, tell her that she can do it, not that she can't. The
> teacher's belief that the student can learn is important for learning
> anything.

Almost agree. I wouldn't tell her that should could do it. I would just assume 
it, and let that show.

That's not hypothetical, by the way.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

-- 
blog at <url: http://alfps.wordpress.com>

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#589

In article <xoGdnSjJmdaHHJHTnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Patricia Shanahan  <pats@acm.org> wrote:
> On 6/30/2011 1:39 AM, Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet wrote:
> ...
> > There are mental differences between males and females. To wit, very few
> > programmers (or mathematicians, or physicists, or ...) are females.
> > Whatever the cause -- my personal theory has to do with how the brain
> > forms models of things, for females more purely associative models that
> > cannot easily be "run" or "evolved" -- it means that you *probably* have
> > an uphill battle.
> >
> > I think the key must be to adapt your approach to the individual at
> > hand. Use examples that at least in some aspects touch on things that
> > she's interested in. Familiarity may be crucial (you state that she's
> > scared by "think language books"), so perhaps start with web pages and
> > such, and a bit of JavaScript.
> >
> > Perhaps then Python and turtle graphics.
> >
> > Be patient, and be flexible. Remember the statistics about female
> > programmers. Depending on the individual, what you're trying *may* be an
> > unnatural act.
> ...
> 
> Programming is an unnatural act for everyone. Cave men didn't do any
> more programming than cave women. It is always a learned skill, not an
> instinct, or even something like natural languages for which we have a
> built-in learning skill.
> 
> When I got my first programming job, in 1970, many programmers were
> women. Indeed, some of the best programmers I've ever met, including
> Grace Hopper, were female. I would not have wanted to be the person to
> try to tell her that her brain structure might be inherently unsuited
> for programming.
> 
> The programming-as-a-boy-thing nonsense only appeared after it became
> apparent that programming was important and a good career choice. Women
> were considered fine at it when it was a small, esoteric, and not
> particularly well paid field.

Good heavens -- that's more strongly worded than your usual post,
Dr. Shanahan!  As another female in this mostly-male field, though,
I say "sing it, sister!"

> Early exposure to programming is no more necessary than being male. I
> didn't write my first program until I was almost 18, and only did enough
> programming to decide I liked it before getting my first programming
> job. I worked in the computer industry, as a programmer and computer
> architect, for over 30 years. I have both a master's degree and a
> doctorate in computer science, and was an inventor on half a dozen
> computer design patents.

My career has been less illustrious than yours but otherwise is
not so different:  I also had no exposure to programming before
I signed up for a first CS course in 1970-something (but then, in
those days who did?).  I also didn't really get interested until I'd
taken a second course and done a bit of coding in what we'd now call
IT-related jobs.  At some point I discovered that programming was
something I liked and seemed able to do pretty well, and that there
were jobs ....  Eventually I also went back to school for advanced
degrees and currently am employed teaching CS at a small university.

Anyway, I also have been dismayed to watch the field evolve from "no
entrenched gender bias" to its current state.  My pet theory about
how that came about involves computer games and who they appeal to.
Yours is more cynical but maybe more plausible.  I like it.

> I agree with rossum's practical advice, for anyone, male or female,
> wanting to pick up programming. Work from existing interests. Separate
> learning to represent tasks in terms of smaller tasks from learning the
> syntax of a language.
> 
> Above all, tell her that she can do it, not that she can't. The
> teacher's belief that the student can learn is important for learning
> anything.

Another "sing it".

A bit more anecdotal evidence, or something:

In my years at my CPOE, I've taught beginning programming a few
times.  Some students come in with prior exposure to programming,
and teaching them is mostly a matter of improving their skills and
possibly adding another language to their skillsets.  But the ones
with no prior experience -- teaching them is *HARD*, because as
you say, programming is "an unnatural act for everyone".  Many of
the students who come in with no prior exposure are also taking
the course solely to meet a degree requirement, and some of those
are non-STEM [*] types taking it to meet a science requirement.

[*] Is this acronym known outside academia?  If not:  science / 
technology / engineering / math.

The non-STEM types in particular -- male and female both -- are
apt to find the experience painful and unpleasant.  But you never
know:  One semester one of my students was a young woman in the last
semester of a degree in marketing or such, and while she didn't find
the course easy, she really seemed to enjoy it, and -- well, it's
too bad we didn't get her earlier?  (Those of us who like to code
are apt to think that once you show people how much fun programming
can be, at least a few of them will want to stick with it.  So we
think of that first course as a potential recruitment tool.  :-)? )

As for what kinds of programs to have beginning students write ....
I think it varies.  Some students will be happy with the kinds
of programs traditionally assigned in first courses, ones where
the primary motivation is pedagogical rather than, say, "I really
want a program to do X -- can I write one?"  You might as well try
the traditional problems first, because your student *might* get
interested (that marketing major did!); if not then maybe trying
a different approach would be worthwhile.  No specific suggestions
on that, alas; I don't really know either!

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#594

On Jun 30, 9:58 am, Patricia Shanahan <p...@acm.org> wrote:
> On 6/30/2011 1:39 AM, Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet wrote:
> ...
>
>
>
> > There are mental differences between males and females. To wit, very few
> > programmers (or mathematicians, or physicists, or ...) are females.
> > Whatever the cause -- my personal theory has to do with how the brain
> > forms models of things, for females more purely associative models that
> > cannot easily be "run" or "evolved" -- it means that you *probably* have
> > an uphill battle.
>
> > I think the key must be to adapt your approach to the individual at
> > hand. Use examples that at least in some aspects touch on things that
> > she's interested in. Familiarity may be crucial (you state that she's
> > scared by "think language books"), so perhaps start with web pages and
> > such, and a bit of JavaScript.
>
> > Perhaps then Python and turtle graphics.
>
> > Be patient, and be flexible. Remember the statistics about female
> > programmers. Depending on the individual, what you're trying *may* be an
> > unnatural act.
>
> ...
>
> Programming is an unnatural act for everyone. Cave men didn't do any
> more programming than cave women. It is always a learned skill, not an
> instinct, or even something like natural languages for which we have a
> built-in learning skill.
>
> When I got my first programming job, in 1970, many programmers were
> women. Indeed, some of the best programmers I've ever met, including
> Grace Hopper, were female. I would not have wanted to be the person to
> try to tell her that her brain structure might be inherently unsuited
> for programming.
>
> The programming-as-a-boy-thing nonsense only appeared after it became
> apparent that programming was important and a good career choice. Women
> were considered fine at it when it was a small, esoteric, and not
> particularly well paid field.
>
> Early exposure to programming is no more necessary than being male. I
> didn't write my first program until I was almost 18, and only did enough
> programming to decide I liked it before getting my first programming
> job. I worked in the computer industry, as a programmer and computer
> architect, for over 30 years. I have both a master's degree and a
> doctorate in computer science, and was an inventor on half a dozen
> computer design patents.
>
> I agree with rossum's practical advice, for anyone, male or female,
> wanting to pick up programming. Work from existing interests. Separate
> learning to represent tasks in terms of smaller tasks from learning the
> syntax of a language.
>
> Above all, tell her that she can do it, not that she can't. The
> teacher's belief that the student can learn is important for learning
> anything.
>
> Patricia

Hi Patricia,

Thanks for stopping by. I personally happen to know some good female
programmers.
Anyways, it's I always tell her thats it's not a big deal and treat
her that way only in whatever she does. It's very important to get
someone to believe that the task at hand can be done!

No we are not at all concentrating on the syntax and stuff. We're just
looking at login right now. And since she knows some C, so she codes
the logic in C. It's going fine. But in order to give her a
motivational boost I was thinking if some small project could be done.
She has a vacation of one month. Even a small project would be like
super kick for her.. What do you say ?

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#567

On Jun 30, 4:39 am, "Alf P. Steinbach /Usenet" <alf.p.steinbach
+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> * vaib, on 30.06.2011 07:49:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Long time.
>
> > So I am faced with a rather strange problem this time. it's not
> > related to any coding task. I got interested in programming as a kid.
> > We used to get exercises to do in the class and the sense of
> > competition and making better programs was the kind of drive that got
> > me interested in programming.
>
> > Now I have a question for a friend of mine. Now she is a non-
> > programmer and has taken entry to a bachelors in technology course.
> > The only problem is that she hasn't got the kind of exposure one
> > should have for programming. She has never programmed and picking up
> > these think language books scares the shit out of her and I personally
> > think is not the way to go.
>
> > So how can I get her interested? I mean I thought that I could simply
> > provide her with a few very easy coding tasks like - printing
> > fibonacci, printing multiples of 3 and so on ...and then when she'd
> > see that she can actually solve something and see it happen on the
> > system then probably she'd find the drive for more!
>
> > Am I wrong in my approach? Is there any other approach like, you know,
> > building some small codes and then stitching them in the end that
> > could probably result in a small project one could a little excited
> > about?
>
> > What's your say on this? I only post on usenet when it's absolutely
> > necessary.
>
> You don't provide much relevant information.
>
> There are mental differences between males and females. To wit, very few
> programmers (or mathematicians, or physicists, or ...) are females. Whatever the
> cause  --  my personal theory has to do with how the brain forms models of
> things, for females more purely associative models that cannot easily be "run"
> or "evolved"  --  it means that you *probably* have an uphill battle.
>
> I think the key must be to adapt your approach to the individual at hand. Use
> examples that at least in some aspects touch on things that she's interested in.
> Familiarity may be crucial (you state that she's scared by "think language
> books"), so perhaps start with web pages and such, and a bit of JavaScript.
>
> Perhaps then Python and turtle graphics.
>
> Be patient, and be flexible. Remember the statistics about female programmers.
> Depending on the individual, what you're trying *may* be an unnatural act.
>
> Cheers & hth.,
>
> - Alf
>
> --
> blog at <url:http://alfps.wordpress.com>

@Alf

I totally agree with you. I mean totally. So initially I thought
something in web for her - stuff that looks dynamic and can get
someone really interested - colors and everything. And so sorry for
the spelling mistake. I meant 'thick language books'. But I think you
got it right.

I know the statistics. I know it might prove to be an uphill task too.
But then again, hey, so many females in the industry. I don't want to
pollute our industry with unskilled people but I am sure she will be
able to find the right thing for herself if I help her in doing so.

And as such, I just want the advise of people here in performing my
task. It's the one laden with responsibility and of course, the
sweetness of friendship.

Thanks a lot again.

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#558

On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:49:37 -0700 (PDT), vaib
<vaibhavpanghal@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hey there,
>
>Long time.
>
>So I am faced with a rather strange problem this time. it's not
>related to any coding task. I got interested in programming as a kid.
>We used to get exercises to do in the class and the sense of
>competition and making better programs was the kind of drive that got
>me interested in programming.
>
>Now I have a question for a friend of mine. Now she is a non-
>programmer and has taken entry to a bachelors in technology course.
>The only problem is that she hasn't got the kind of exposure one
>should have for programming. She has never programmed and picking up
>these think language books scares the shit out of her and I personally
>think is not the way to go.
>
>So how can I get her interested? I mean I thought that I could simply
>provide her with a few very easy coding tasks like - printing
>fibonacci, printing multiples of 3 and so on ...and then when she'd
>see that she can actually solve something and see it happen on the
>system then probably she'd find the drive for more!
>
>Am I wrong in my approach? Is there any other approach like, you know,
>building some small codes and then stitching them in the end that
>could probably result in a small project one could a little excited
>about?
>
>What's your say on this? I only post on usenet when it's absolutely
>necessary.
>
>Thanking in anticipation.
Some ideas:

  - Avoid specific language initially, use pseudocode.

  - Use everyday tasks: make a cup of coffee
       begin
       find a cup
       if (cup is dirty) then wash cup.
       ...

  - Does she have a hobby?  Make a simple catalogue for her hobby.

rossum

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#568

On Jun 30, 5:18 am, rossum <rossu...@coldmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:49:37 -0700 (PDT), vaib
>
>
>
>
>
> <vaibhavpang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hey there,
>
> >Long time.
>
> >So I am faced with a rather strange problem this time. it's not
> >related to any coding task. I got interested in programming as a kid.
> >We used to get exercises to do in the class and the sense of
> >competition and making better programs was the kind of drive that got
> >me interested in programming.
>
> >Now I have a question for a friend of mine. Now she is a non-
> >programmer and has taken entry to a bachelors in technology course.
> >The only problem is that she hasn't got the kind of exposure one
> >should have for programming. She has never programmed and picking up
> >these think language books scares the shit out of her and I personally
> >think is not the way to go.
>
> >So how can I get her interested? I mean I thought that I could simply
> >provide her with a few very easy coding tasks like - printing
> >fibonacci, printing multiples of 3 and so on ...and then when she'd
> >see that she can actually solve something and see it happen on the
> >system then probably she'd find the drive for more!
>
> >Am I wrong in my approach? Is there any other approach like, you know,
> >building some small codes and then stitching them in the end that
> >could probably result in a small project one could a little excited
> >about?
>
> >What's your say on this? I only post on usenet when it's absolutely
> >necessary.
>
> >Thanking in anticipation.
>
> Some ideas:
>
>   - Avoid specific language initially, use pseudocode.
>
>   - Use everyday tasks: make a cup of coffee
>        begin
>        find a cup
>        if (cup is dirty) then wash cup.
>        ...
>
>   - Does she have a hobby?  Make a simple catalogue for her hobby.
>
> rossum

So, yes exactly. I am not tying her to any specific language. I just
gave her some easy problems and told her to think about them with just
pen and paper in hand. Which she did and succeeded at...yayaee..

And then she picked up some C book and wrote the code for the same
problems. Since she is in a computing course she has familiarity with
terminology and stuff - but the real knowledge was/is missing.

So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime numbers,
pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
relatively easy to code and finds interest !

Am I doing it right ?

Thanks a lot for replying!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#569

On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
...
> So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime numbers,
> pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
> arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
> relatively easy to code and finds interest !
...

Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
asking her.

Patricia

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#597

On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Patricia Shanahan <p...@acm.org> wrote:
> On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
> ...> So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime numbers,
> > pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
> > arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
> > relatively easy to code and finds interest !
>
> ...
>
> Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
> boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
> asking her.
>
> Patricia

Hey Patricia,

No I am not giving her too easy problems. I am actually raising the
level of questions with each passing day. So I judge her capability by
the way she solves the problem. And then I decide the next level of
problems for her..She is doing fine. I just want a project idea now I
guess. It would do her a world of good... I know her feedback is
important.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#603

On 7/3/2011 1:26 AM, vaib wrote:
> On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org>  wrote:
>> On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
>> ...>  So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime numbers,
>>> pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
>>> arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
>>> relatively easy to code and finds interest !
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
>> boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
>> asking her.
>>
>> Patricia
>
> Hey Patricia,
>
> No I am not giving her too easy problems. I am actually raising the
> level of questions with each passing day. So I judge her capability by
> the way she solves the problem. And then I decide the next level of
> problems for her..She is doing fine. I just want a project idea now I
> guess. It would do her a world of good... I know her feedback is
> important.

It sounds as though it is going well.

In another article, you mentioned interests in music and drawing. Maybe
it is time to introduce a GUI or sound card interface, and do some
project that relates to one of those interests?

Patricia

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#604

On 7/3/2011 6:38 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> On 7/3/2011 1:26 AM, vaib wrote:
>> On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
>>> ...> So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime
>>> numbers,
>>>> pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
>>>> arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
>>>> relatively easy to code and finds interest !
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
>>> boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
>>> asking her.
>>>
>>> Patricia
>>
>> Hey Patricia,
>>
>> No I am not giving her too easy problems. I am actually raising the
>> level of questions with each passing day. So I judge her capability by
>> the way she solves the problem. And then I decide the next level of
>> problems for her..She is doing fine. I just want a project idea now I
>> guess. It would do her a world of good... I know her feedback is
>> important.
>
> It sounds as though it is going well.
>
> In another article, you mentioned interests in music and drawing. Maybe
> it is time to introduce a GUI or sound card interface, and do some
> project that relates to one of those interests?

Also, if you have not already done so, try to introduce her to the sheer
beauty of a really well structured, nicely formatted program.

Patricia

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#607

On Jul 3, 9:03 pm, Patricia Shanahan <p...@acm.org> wrote:
> On 7/3/2011 6:38 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7/3/2011 1:26 AM, vaib wrote:
> >> On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org> wrote:
> >>> On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
> >>> ...> So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime
> >>> numbers,
> >>>> pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
> >>>> arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
> >>>> relatively easy to code and finds interest !
>
> >>> ...
>
> >>> Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
> >>> boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
> >>> asking her.
>
> >>> Patricia
>
> >> Hey Patricia,
>
> >> No I am not giving her too easy problems. I am actually raising the
> >> level of questions with each passing day. So I judge her capability by
> >> the way she solves the problem. And then I decide the next level of
> >> problems for her..She is doing fine. I just want a project idea now I
> >> guess. It would do her a world of good... I know her feedback is
> >> important.
>
> > It sounds as though it is going well.
>
> > In another article, you mentioned interests in music and drawing. Maybe
> > it is time to introduce a GUI or sound card interface, and do some
> > project that relates to one of those interests?
>
> Also, if you have not already done so, try to introduce her to the sheer
> beauty of a really well structured, nicely formatted program.
>
> Patricia

Hi Patricia,

Thanks for posting again. She is doing well and it's going fine.

So, today, reflecting on your advise of not giving her too much of
simpler problems, I asked her that since she didn't face any
difficulty in solving the problems I had given her till date would she
like to do some more trickier stuff and she said that she'd love to
try out the trickier stuff. So I think it's time that I gave her some
tricky problems and see how she does and then raise the level
accordingly.

Now also, I don't want her to just keep solving problems all day.
Variety is important too. I mean if she gets variety she'd be
interested more. So I combine problem solving with some reading on
general technological stuff so that she gains some technical
perspective and starts to understand stuff that matters to us. And
that seems to be going good too! Touch wood!

Yes, now coming back to interests - she does like to draw and stuff
and yes, everyone likes music. So, what GUI should I expose her too? I
mean I think the best and easiest could be just web - but my mind goes
for a spin when I try to think about what small project\app she could
made!!  I mean I have no idea how the thing could be simple and still
relate to GUI. I do not want to bother her with stuff like WPF or
WinForms or Qt or something like that - the underlying stuff could be
overwhelming for her! I want to take things one at a time and slowly
with her. She means a lot and I do not want to mess it up for her in
any way. I just want to sure before taking any step when it comes to
her.
I think html5 is here - it has both music and canvas capabilities. But
what could I possibly think that would be easy to make and she gets
happy with the final result.

And when I think about it seriously then it seems like I've been
entrusted with high responsibility and it feels really good. I mean
its something to make a programmer....ah! my spirits are a little
high.

And Patricia, what did you mean by introducing her to beauty of a
'really structured, nicely formatted program' ? Didn't get that part!

Thanks a lot again. Hoping to hear from you again!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#609

On 7/3/2011 15:29, vaib wrote:
> On Jul 3, 9:03�pm, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org>  wrote:
>> On 7/3/2011 6:38 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 7/3/2011 1:26 AM, vaib wrote:
>>>> On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org>  wrote:
>>>>> On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
>>>>> ...>  So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime
>>>>> numbers,
>>>>>> pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
>>>>>> arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
>>>>>> relatively easy to code and finds interest !
>>
>>>>> ...
>>
>>>>> Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
>>>>> boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
>>>>> asking her.
>>
>>>>> Patricia
>>
>>>> Hey Patricia,
>>
>>>> No I am not giving her too easy problems. I am actually raising the
>>>> level of questions with each passing day. So I judge her capability by
>>>> the way she solves the problem. And then I decide the next level of
>>>> problems for her..She is doing fine. I just want a project idea now I
>>>> guess. It would do her a world of good... I know her feedback is
>>>> important.
>>
>>> It sounds as though it is going well.
>>
>>> In another article, you mentioned interests in music and drawing. Maybe
>>> it is time to introduce a GUI or sound card interface, and do some
>>> project that relates to one of those interests?
>>
>> Also, if you have not already done so, try to introduce her to the sheer
>> beauty of a really well structured, nicely formatted program.
>>
>> Patricia
>
> Hi Patricia,
>
> Thanks for posting again. She is doing well and it's going fine.
>
> So, today, reflecting on your advise of not giving her too much of
> simpler problems, I asked her that since she didn't face any
> difficulty in solving the problems I had given her till date would she
> like to do some more trickier stuff and she said that she'd love to
> try out the trickier stuff. So I think it's time that I gave her some
> tricky problems and see how she does and then raise the level
> accordingly.
>
> Now also, I don't want her to just keep solving problems all day.
> Variety is important too. I mean if she gets variety she'd be
> interested more. So I combine problem solving with some reading on
> general technological stuff so that she gains some technical
> perspective and starts to understand stuff that matters to us. And
> that seems to be going good too! Touch wood!
>
> Yes, now coming back to interests - she does like to draw and stuff
> and yes, everyone likes music. So, what GUI should I expose her too? I
> mean I think the best and easiest could be just web - but my mind goes
> for a spin when I try to think about what small project\app she could
> made!!  I mean I have no idea how the thing could be simple and still
> relate to GUI. I do not want to bother her with stuff like WPF or
> WinForms or Qt or something like that - the underlying stuff could be
> overwhelming for her! I want to take things one at a time and slowly
> with her. She means a lot and I do not want to mess it up for her in
> any way. I just want to sure before taking any step when it comes to
> her.
> I think html5 is here - it has both music and canvas capabilities. But
> what could I possibly think that would be easy to make and she gets
> happy with the final result.
>
> And when I think about it seriously then it seems like I've been
> entrusted with high responsibility and it feels really good. I mean
> its something to make a programmer....ah! my spirits are a little
> high.
>
> And Patricia, what did you mean by introducing her to beauty of a
> 'really structured, nicely formatted program' ? Didn't get that part!
>
> Thanks a lot again. Hoping to hear from you again!

Buy a big bottle of good wine. Share it with her. Tell her you love her. 
Forget about programming.

-- 
Joe Wright
"If you rob Peter to pay Paul you can depend on the support of Paul."

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#610

"Joe Wright" <joewwright@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:JeydnT1v18XpnozTnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@giganews.com...
[...]

> Buy a big bottle of good wine. Share it with her. Tell her you love her. 
> Forget about programming.

YEEEEEEEE HAW!

;^D 

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#617

On Jul 4, 5:04 am, Joe Wright <joewwri...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 7/3/2011 15:29, vaib wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 3, 9:03 pm, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org>  wrote:
> >> On 7/3/2011 6:38 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>
> >>> On 7/3/2011 1:26 AM, vaib wrote:
> >>>> On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org>  wrote:
> >>>>> On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
> >>>>> ...>  So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime
> >>>>> numbers,
> >>>>>> pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
> >>>>>> arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
> >>>>>> relatively easy to code and finds interest !
>
> >>>>> ...
>
> >>>>> Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
> >>>>> boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
> >>>>> asking her.
>
> >>>>> Patricia
>
> >>>> Hey Patricia,
>
> >>>> No I am not giving her too easy problems. I am actually raising the
> >>>> level of questions with each passing day. So I judge her capability by
> >>>> the way she solves the problem. And then I decide the next level of
> >>>> problems for her..She is doing fine. I just want a project idea now I
> >>>> guess. It would do her a world of good... I know her feedback is
> >>>> important.
>
> >>> It sounds as though it is going well.
>
> >>> In another article, you mentioned interests in music and drawing. Maybe
> >>> it is time to introduce a GUI or sound card interface, and do some
> >>> project that relates to one of those interests?
>
> >> Also, if you have not already done so, try to introduce her to the sheer
> >> beauty of a really well structured, nicely formatted program.
>
> >> Patricia
>
> > Hi Patricia,
>
> > Thanks for posting again. She is doing well and it's going fine.
>
> > So, today, reflecting on your advise of not giving her too much of
> > simpler problems, I asked her that since she didn't face any
> > difficulty in solving the problems I had given her till date would she
> > like to do some more trickier stuff and she said that she'd love to
> > try out the trickier stuff. So I think it's time that I gave her some
> > tricky problems and see how she does and then raise the level
> > accordingly.
>
> > Now also, I don't want her to just keep solving problems all day.
> > Variety is important too. I mean if she gets variety she'd be
> > interested more. So I combine problem solving with some reading on
> > general technological stuff so that she gains some technical
> > perspective and starts to understand stuff that matters to us. And
> > that seems to be going good too! Touch wood!
>
> > Yes, now coming back to interests - she does like to draw and stuff
> > and yes, everyone likes music. So, what GUI should I expose her too? I
> > mean I think the best and easiest could be just web - but my mind goes
> > for a spin when I try to think about what small project\app she could
> > made!!  I mean I have no idea how the thing could be simple and still
> > relate to GUI. I do not want to bother her with stuff like WPF or
> > WinForms or Qt or something like that - the underlying stuff could be
> > overwhelming for her! I want to take things one at a time and slowly
> > with her. She means a lot and I do not want to mess it up for her in
> > any way. I just want to sure before taking any step when it comes to
> > her.
> > I think html5 is here - it has both music and canvas capabilities. But
> > what could I possibly think that would be easy to make and she gets
> > happy with the final result.
>
> > And when I think about it seriously then it seems like I've been
> > entrusted with high responsibility and it feels really good. I mean
> > its something to make a programmer....ah! my spirits are a little
> > high.
>
> > And Patricia, what did you mean by introducing her to beauty of a
> > 'really structured, nicely formatted program' ? Didn't get that part!
>
> > Thanks a lot again. Hoping to hear from you again!
>
> Buy a big bottle of good wine. Share it with her. Tell her you love her.
> Forget about programming.
>
> --
> Joe Wright
> "If you rob Peter to pay Paul you can depend on the support of Paul."

Thanks a lot Joe. I'll probably think about that too sometime.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#622

On Jul 6, 10:17 am, vaib <vaibhavpang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 4, 5:04 am, Joe Wright <joewwri...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7/3/2011 15:29, vaib wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 3, 9:03 pm, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org>  wrote:
> > >> On 7/3/2011 6:38 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>
> > >>> On 7/3/2011 1:26 AM, vaib wrote:
> > >>>> On Jul 1, 8:19 am, Patricia Shanahan<p...@acm.org>  wrote:
> > >>>>> On 7/1/2011 12:49 AM, vaib wrote:
> > >>>>> ...>  So right now, I am just giving her some easy stuff like prime
> > >>>>> numbers,
> > >>>>>> pythagorean triplets and so on....moving to problems on functions and
> > >>>>>> arrays...and then I'll move to some web....so that she finds it
> > >>>>>> relatively easy to code and finds interest !
>
> > >>>>> ...
>
> > >>>>> Make sure you don't make it too easy. Too many easy projects can become
> > >>>>> boring. Don't assume she does not want challenging projects without
> > >>>>> asking her.
>
> > >>>>> Patricia
>
> > >>>> Hey Patricia,
>
> > >>>> No I am not giving her too easy problems. I am actually raising the
> > >>>> level of questions with each passing day. So I judge her capability by
> > >>>> the way she solves the problem. And then I decide the next level of
> > >>>> problems for her..She is doing fine. I just want a project idea now I
> > >>>> guess. It would do her a world of good... I know her feedback is
> > >>>> important.
>
> > >>> It sounds as though it is going well.
>
> > >>> In another article, you mentioned interests in music and drawing. Maybe
> > >>> it is time to introduce a GUI or sound card interface, and do some
> > >>> project that relates to one of those interests?
>
> > >> Also, if you have not already done so, try to introduce her to the sheer
> > >> beauty of a really well structured, nicely formatted program.
>
> > >> Patricia
>
> > > Hi Patricia,
>
> > > Thanks for posting again. She is doing well and it's going fine.
>
> > > So, today, reflecting on your advise of not giving her too much of
> > > simpler problems, I asked her that since she didn't face any
> > > difficulty in solving the problems I had given her till date would she
> > > like to do some more trickier stuff and she said that she'd love to
> > > try out the trickier stuff. So I think it's time that I gave her some
> > > tricky problems and see how she does and then raise the level
> > > accordingly.
>
> > > Now also, I don't want her to just keep solving problems all day.
> > > Variety is important too. I mean if she gets variety she'd be
> > > interested more. So I combine problem solving with some reading on
> > > general technological stuff so that she gains some technical
> > > perspective and starts to understand stuff that matters to us. And
> > > that seems to be going good too! Touch wood!
>
> > > Yes, now coming back to interests - she does like to draw and stuff
> > > and yes, everyone likes music. So, what GUI should I expose her too? I
> > > mean I think the best and easiest could be just web - but my mind goes
> > > for a spin when I try to think about what small project\app she could
> > > made!!  I mean I have no idea how the thing could be simple and still
> > > relate to GUI. I do not want to bother her with stuff like WPF or
> > > WinForms or Qt or something like that - the underlying stuff could be
> > > overwhelming for her! I want to take things one at a time and slowly
> > > with her. She means a lot and I do not want to mess it up for her in
> > > any way. I just want to sure before taking any step when it comes to
> > > her.
> > > I think html5 is here - it has both music and canvas capabilities. But
> > > what could I possibly think that would be easy to make and she gets
> > > happy with the final result.
>
> > > And when I think about it seriously then it seems like I've been
> > > entrusted with high responsibility and it feels really good. I mean
> > > its something to make a programmer....ah! my spirits are a little
> > > high.
>
> > > And Patricia, what did you mean by introducing her to beauty of a
> > > 'really structured, nicely formatted program' ? Didn't get that part!
>
> > > Thanks a lot again. Hoping to hear from you again!
>
> > Buy a big bottle of good wine. Share it with her. Tell her you love her.
> > Forget about programming.
>
> > --
> > Joe Wright
> > "If you rob Peter to pay Paul you can depend on the support of Paul."
>
> Thanks a lot Joe. I'll probably think about that too sometime.

So any project ideas for the newbie ?

Thanks again!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#638

[...]

> So any project ideas for the newbie ?

Life is too short? 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#640

On Jul 12, 10:23 am, "James" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > So any project ideas for the newbie ?
>
> Life is too short?

Yes it is short James. What did you think?

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