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What is the current state-of-the-art?

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  What is the current state-of-the-art? Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2019-09-07 09:23 -0700
    Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Pankaj Jangid <pankaj.jangid@gmail.com> - 2019-09-07 23:16 +0530
    Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-09-07 17:51 +0000
      Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-09-08 06:31 -0700
      Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-09-13 07:42 -0700
    Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Louis Valence <lvalence@example.com> - 2019-09-08 00:17 -0300
      Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2019-09-08 13:56 -0700
        Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Louis Valence <lvalence@example.com> - 2019-09-08 23:54 -0300
        Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-09-11 06:12 -0700
          Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Louis Valence <lvalence@example.com> - 2019-09-11 21:25 -0300
            Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2019-09-13 10:25 -0700
              Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? Louis Valence <lvalence@example.com> - 2019-09-13 17:11 -0300
    Re: What is the current state-of-the-art? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-09-13 07:47 -0700

#10179 — What is the current state-of-the-art?

This message is X-posted from programming-topics at googlegroups.com,  edited some.

There are a lot of programmers these days, thanks to the internet and cheap hardware, but it doesn't seem like it has advanced computer programming at all.  

Confusion still abounds about object-oriented programming (one of my present interests), for example, and some programmers suggest ditching it for functional languages like Haskell.  Operating Systems have seemed to plateau in the past 10-15 years.  Linux now even has bogus version numbers to look like something's going on.  Firefox is on version 54 or something as if the web revolution is 54 years old.  Language design is probably happening somewhere, but there doesn't seem to be any mailing lists with programmers discussing topics of such interest.  

What happened to the internet I used to know?  Hot topics and language wars seemed to make way for bogus JavaScript wonderlands.  It's not like the problems were solved (well, I've made an attempt), so have the problems gone underground and are now creating new cancers in the field?  I want my old community back of people thinking and doing cool shit that makes real advances in the state-of-the-art.  The computer revolution has not topped out and the internet revolution has yet to appear.  Trust me or ask me about it: I've quantified it.  (A topic for discussion that may be good fodder if anyone asks.)

What are some topics that people are working on that they hope will advance the field?  

Mark

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#10180

Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> writes:

> There are a lot of programmers these days, thanks to the internet and
> cheap hardware, but it doesn't seem like it has advanced computer
> programming at all.
>
We are moving towards more closed systems. In those days people put
effort into making something that last long. I am typing this email in
my emacs. This software will outlive me I am sure. But look at the
current generation tools. Just because we have abundance of programmers
now a days they are making anything now. Andy the work will be dumped
after two years.

Enormous effort put in those days made them share knowledge and
reuse. They created protocols for sharing messages (email), chat (irc),
web (http). I had choice whatever software I use to interact as long as
the protocol is same. Now for rust-programming, I need DiscordApp, for
Atlassian Slack, Gitters for some others. Why can't they talk using same
protocol.

> Confusion still abounds about object-oriented programming (one of my
> present interests), for example, and some programmers suggest ditching
> it for functional languages like Haskell.  Operating Systems have
> seemed to plateau in the past 10-15 years.  Linux now even has bogus
> version numbers to look like something's going on.  Firefox is on
> version 54 or something as if the web revolution is 54 years old.
> Language design is probably happening somewhere, but there doesn't
> seem to be any mailing lists with programmers discussing topics of
> such interest.
>

At one point, Google was the darling of the open source community. It
probably still is. But they are the one who started this versioning
convention of incrementing major version number every two months. They
didn't follow the community rules.

> What happened to the internet I used to know?  Hot topics and language
> wars seemed to make way for bogus JavaScript wonderlands.  It's not
> like the problems were solved (well, I've made an attempt), so have
> the problems gone underground and are now creating new cancers in the
> field?  I want my old community back of people thinking and doing cool
> shit that makes real advances in the state-of-the-art.  The computer
> revolution has not topped out and the internet revolution has yet to
> appear.  Trust me or ask me about it: I've quantified it.  (A topic
> for discussion that may be good fodder if anyone asks.)
>
> What are some topics that people are working on that they hope will
> advance the field?
>
Right now, I see only machine-learning people sharing code and knowledge
with each others. 

-- 
Pankaj Jangid

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#10181

On 2019-09-07, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
> This message is X-posted from programming-topics at googlegroups.com,
> edited some.

you are not qualified for this discussion as you are not competent to
use real newsreader.



-- 
press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi 
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala

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#10183

On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 10:51:58 AM UTC-7, Melzzzzz wrote:
> On 2019-09-07, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This message is X-posted from programming-topics at googlegroups.com,
> > edited some.
> 
> you are not qualified for this discussion as you are not competent to
> use real newsreader.
> 

U mad bro?

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#10195

W dniu sobota, 7 września 2019 19:51:58 UTC+2 użytkownik Melzzzzz napisał:
> On 2019-09-07, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This message is X-posted from programming-topics at googlegroups.com,
> > edited some.
> 
> you are not qualified for this discussion as you are not competent to
> use real newsreader.
> 
> 
> 
see at least oldschool morons are still alive

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#10182

Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> writes:

[...]

> What happened to the internet I used to know?  

The Internet we used to know was built by and populated by a much more
coherent community, but, as it turned out, the Internet is great for
commerce and consumption, so now the Internet is full of consumers.  The
typical consumer is not very skilled; the older generation, that built
this Internet, is probably a bit old by now too.  Many are dead.  We're
probably the ones left.

When I got to know the Internet, I consciously started to trace its
history so I could learn the old ways of doing things because it was
clear to me the ``old people'' had learned important things and I wanted
to learn from them and take it from there.  But, boy, do people agree
with me?  They do not.  They can't even see what I mean.

You talk to a computer science student nowadays and they ``surely
learned their c programming language'', but never heard of Dennis
Ritchie or Brian Kernighan, nor have read the book.  They prefer to
learn from badly written essays and poorly crafted paragraphs.  It makes
no sense.

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#10186

> > What happened to the internet I used to know?  
> 
> The Internet we used to know was built by and populated by a much more
> coherent community, but, as it turned out, the Internet is great for
> commerce and consumption, so now the Internet is full of consumers.  The
> typical consumer is not very skilled; the older generation, that built
> this Internet, is probably a bit old by now too.  Many are dead.  We're
> probably the ones left.

Don't you think the Free software community was built for this, too?
They're still around.  Why aren't they protecting/curating the value
of the open source community?  It looks like
commercial companies like Github (now Microsoft's!) and Redhat are
going all the heavy-lifting now.

Is it that the model of Free and Open failed?  That programmers
capable of creating value aren't getting paid or rewarded in some way?

> When I got to know the Internet, I consciously started to trace its
> history so I could learn the old ways of doing things because it was
> clear to me the ``old people'' had learned important things and I wanted
> to learn from them and take it from there.  But, boy, do people agree
> with me?  They do not.  They can't even see what I mean.

It's true, the power of VT220 or a 2400 modem could pretty much give
you everything you ever wanted. Those days are still the glory days of
the machine in so many ways.  You couldn't rely on libraries to do
your thinking for you.

Apart form 3d modeling, everything else is cosmetic dressing.  It's sick.
 
> You talk to a computer science student nowadays and they ``surely
> learned their c programming language'', but never heard of Dennis
> Ritchie or Brian Kernighan, nor have read the book.  They prefer to
> learn from badly written essays and poorly crafted paragraphs.  It makes
> no sense.

For sure, ask a Javascripter:  What is the binary digit for one?  They
think it's a trick question.

This is about all the commentary  I can get out for now.

mark

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#10187

Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> writes:

>> > What happened to the internet I used to know?  
>> 
>> The Internet we used to know was built by and populated by a much more
>> coherent community, but, as it turned out, the Internet is great for
>> commerce and consumption, so now the Internet is full of consumers.  The
>> typical consumer is not very skilled; the older generation, that built
>> this Internet, is probably a bit old by now too.  Many are dead.  We're
>> probably the ones left.
>
> Don't you think the Free software community was built for this, too?

Sorry.  Built for what?

[...]

>> You talk to a computer science student nowadays and they ``surely
>> learned their c programming language'', but never heard of Dennis
>> Ritchie or Brian Kernighan, nor have read the book.  They prefer to
>> learn from badly written essays and poorly crafted paragraphs.  It makes
>> no sense.
>
> For sure, ask a Javascripter:  What is the binary digit for one?  They
> think it's a trick question.

We should not underestimate cluelessness.

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#10188

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:56:30 PM UTC-7, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
> > > What happened to the internet I used to know?  
> > 
> > The Internet we used to know was built by and populated by a much more
> > coherent community, but, as it turned out, the Internet is great for
> > commerce and consumption, so now the Internet is full of consumers.  The
> > typical consumer is not very skilled; the older generation, that built
> > this Internet, is probably a bit old by now too.  Many are dead.  We're
> > probably the ones left.
> 
> Don't you think the Free software community was built for this, too?
> They're still around.  Why aren't they protecting/curating the value
> of the open source community?  It looks like
> commercial companies like Github (now Microsoft's!) and Redhat are
> going all the heavy-lifting now.
> 
> Is it that the model of Free and Open failed?  That programmers
> capable of creating value aren't getting paid or rewarded in some way?
> 
> > When I got to know the Internet, I consciously started to trace its
> > history so I could learn the old ways of doing things because it was
> > clear to me the ``old people'' had learned important things and I wanted
> > to learn from them and take it from there.  But, boy, do people agree
> > with me?  They do not.  They can't even see what I mean.
> 
> It's true, the power of VT220 or a 2400 modem could pretty much give
> you everything you ever wanted. Those days are still the glory days of
> the machine in so many ways.  You couldn't rely on libraries to do
> your thinking for you.
> 
> Apart form 3d modeling, everything else is cosmetic dressing.  It's sick.
>  
> > You talk to a computer science student nowadays and they ``surely
> > learned their c programming language'', but never heard of Dennis
> > Ritchie or Brian Kernighan, nor have read the book.  They prefer to
> > learn from badly written essays and poorly crafted paragraphs.  It makes
> > no sense.
> 
> For sure, ask a Javascripter:  What is the binary digit for one?  They
> think it's a trick question.
> 

It actually turns out to be a tricky in JavaScript. Seriously. I could probably give you two cases that would make you go wtf.

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#10189

Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:56:30 PM UTC-7, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:

[...]

>> > You talk to a computer science student nowadays and they ``surely
>> > learned their c programming language'', but never heard of Dennis
>> > Ritchie or Brian Kernighan, nor have read the book.  They prefer to
>> > learn from badly written essays and poorly crafted paragraphs.  It makes
>> > no sense.
>> 
>> For sure, ask a Javascripter:  What is the binary digit for one?  They
>> think it's a trick question.
>
> It actually turns out to be a tricky in JavaScript. Seriously. I could
> probably give you two cases that would make you go wtf.

Show me the money!

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#10197

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 5:26:01 PM UTC-7, Louis Valence wrote:
> Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:56:30 PM UTC-7, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> >> > You talk to a computer science student nowadays and they ``surely
> >> > learned their c programming language'', but never heard of Dennis
> >> > Ritchie or Brian Kernighan, nor have read the book.  They prefer to
> >> > learn from badly written essays and poorly crafted paragraphs.  It makes
> >> > no sense.
> >> 
> >> For sure, ask a Javascripter:  What is the binary digit for one?  They
> >> think it's a trick question.
> >
> > It actually turns out to be a tricky in JavaScript. Seriously. I could
> > probably give you two cases that would make you go wtf.
> 
> Show me the money!

Try the following in the JavaScript console..

"10" + "1"
right after that, do
"10" - "1"

And you're welcome -).

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#10200

Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 5:26:01 PM UTC-7, Louis Valence wrote:
>> Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:56:30 PM UTC-7, Mark
>> > Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> >> > You talk to a computer science student nowadays and they ``surely
>> >> > learned their c programming language'', but never heard of Dennis
>> >> > Ritchie or Brian Kernighan, nor have read the book.  They prefer to
>> >> > learn from badly written essays and poorly crafted paragraphs.  It makes
>> >> > no sense.
>> >> 
>> >> For sure, ask a Javascripter:  What is the binary digit for one?  They
>> >> think it's a trick question.
>> >
>> > It actually turns out to be a tricky in JavaScript. Seriously. I could
>> > probably give you two cases that would make you go wtf.
>> 
>> Show me the money!
>
> Try the following in the JavaScript console..
>
> "10" + "1"
> right after that, do
> "10" - "1"
>
> And you're welcome -).

Thanks! (Please, don't top post!) :P

Allegedly, these are examples of tricky ``questions'', which to me
implies the behavior of these statements should be tricky.  But what's
tricky about them?  Do you think a plus sign should always mean
addition?  There's perhaps many programming languages that define their
meaning to be concatenation of strings, of lists et cetera.  So the
first example concatenates the two strings.  Now, why should we expect
that the minus sign would mean anything other than subtraction?  So the
second statement coerces the strings to numbers and subtracts them.  Is
there a well-defined inverse operation to concatenation?  If so, the
minus sign could take that role.

In fact, given we've seen + does string concatenation in Javascript, we
should also expect that, for example, [] + [] should either yield a type
error or it should coerce these arguments into strings and concatenate
them.  That's what in fact it does.  The coercion of [] produces the
empty string, so two empty strings concatenated yield an empty string.
Not too tricky of a question, I say.

Now let's ask the following question.  Given all the above as an
introduction to the question, we then prompt the candidate with what
should be the result of {} + "something".

So far, it seems the plus sign is the string concatenation operator, so
it could probably coerce {} into a string, if it does not produce a type
error (which would probably be the most natural behavior), and
concatenate it to "something".  Perhaps, as in [], it will coerce {} to
the empty string and so the final result will be "something".  But,
alas, that's not what happens.

  > {} + "something"
  NaN

That I call a tricky question.

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#10196

W dniu sobota, 7 września 2019 18:23:33 UTC+2 użytkownik Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen napisał:
> This message is X-posted from programming-topics at googlegroups.com,  edited some.
> 
> There are a lot of programmers these days, thanks to the internet and cheap hardware, but it doesn't seem like it has advanced computer programming at all.  
> 
> Confusion still abounds about object-oriented programming (one of my present interests), for example, and some programmers suggest ditching it for functional languages like Haskell.  Operating Systems have seemed to plateau in the past 10-15 years.  Linux now even has bogus version numbers to look like something's going on.  Firefox is on version 54 or something as if the web revolution is 54 years old.  Language design is probably happening somewhere, but there doesn't seem to be any mailing lists with programmers discussing topics of such interest.  
> 
> What happened to the internet I used to know?  Hot topics and language wars seemed to make way for bogus JavaScript wonderlands.  It's not like the problems were solved (well, I've made an attempt), so have the problems gone underground and are now creating new cancers in the field?  I want my old community back of people thinking and doing cool shit that makes real advances in the state-of-the-art.  The computer revolution has not topped out and the internet revolution has yet to appear.  Trust me or ask me about it: I've quantified it.  (A topic for discussion that may be good fodder if anyone asks.)
> 
> What are some topics that people are working on that they hope will advance the field?  
> 
> Mark

i know what happend but i once writing some my thoughts that every technical revolution (including hip-hop) goes in such way:
where things born they are like center of exploding star, things are hot new know by small amount of people and very interesting etc - then the size of it all goes to middle areas where whats interesting began to be polluted by growing bulshit, then it goes yet bigger and more like everything is bullshit 

whis is what happend, but where are thiose more interesting/intense things i dont know (well soem are deep inside in my head, maybe - but the comunity is lost and nobody is real interested ;c )

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