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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started byLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 271 — 23 participants

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Contents

  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:50 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:26 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:42 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:14 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:07 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 01:13 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:32 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:41 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 12:45 +0200
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:24 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:16 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:53 +0200
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 06:02 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:26 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 06:42 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:41 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 06:39 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:22 -0400
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:54 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:19 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:40 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:52 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:47 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-17 23:29 +0200
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 05:29 +0000
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:07 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:28 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:26 +0100
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:40 +0100
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                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:39 +0100
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      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:16 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:51 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:04 +0100
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                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-17 01:55 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-17 01:07 -0400
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:28 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:35 +0000
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    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 11:44 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:14 +0000
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          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 17:56 +0000
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              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 18:32 +0000
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 12:04 +0100
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      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:58 +0000
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:25 +0100
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "De ongekruisigde ds." <ongekruisigde-ds@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000

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#93850

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-16 12:40 +0100
Message-ID<11at2fv$33n8m$35@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93845
On 16/10/2026 11:56, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 11:26:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>>> It can at best, and it does, teach you what properties of a program are
>>> provable and give you a theoretical framework for correctness.
>>>
>>> And you're clearly not gonna formally prove your web app, you use those
>>> to prove the avionics at AirBUS or other mission critical systems.
>>>
>> No. you dont.
> 
> Oh!
> I must have been lied to by people connected to the project.
> I apologize for spreading misinformation.
> 
> In which case, I guess you don't formally prove avionics either.
> Maybe you don't prove anything at all outside of academia.
> 
> I don't have a problem with that.
> 
>> Anything more complex than a finite state machine cannot be validated.
> 
> Surely that's an interesting computer science result that you'd want to
> know before attempting to allocate some budget to do just that?
> 
> (Or before you allocate some budget to build a finite state machine that
> you can later, theoretically, validate.)
> 
>> Christ on a bike. You have no idea do you?
> 
> Again, I am only sharing the anecdotes of people familiar with the work.
> I can't 100% rule out it's Santa and his elves making the planes.
> 
>>> The kind of thing Boeing neglected to do lately, see: 737 MAX.
>>>
>> They relied on CS style theoretical solutions.
> 
> Don't suppose you have a source for that?
> 
Its all in the industry press.
Everywhere.

They had to tilt the engines up to get them to fit.

That changed the aicrafts handling.

So they patched some other software that wasn't related, to compensate 
and make it more or less feel like the old 737 so pilots did not have to 
get re certified.
This worked, until speficic setss of circumstances that clearly were not 
envisaged by the CS people who recoded it, appeared and crashed the planes

> It would be really funny to apply "CS style theoretical solutions" to a
> plane (and not in the sense of the _avionics_, or the on-board
> enteirtanment, but the plane itself... after chopping off its tail).
> 
>>>> Computers science is not what you think it is.
>>>
>>> Funnily, I have a degree in computer science.
>>
>> Indeed. And it shows
> 
> Thank you, I'll wear the compliment with pride.

Another CS flaw noted

-- 
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

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#93851

FromTapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com>
Date2026-10-16 11:46 +0000
Message-ID<11at2r8$31lan$17@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93850
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 12:40:47 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


>>>> The kind of thing Boeing neglected to do lately, see: 737 MAX.
>>>>
>>> They relied on CS style theoretical solutions.
>> 
>> Don't suppose you have a source for that?
>> 
> Its all in the industry press.
> Everywhere.
> 
> They had to tilt the engines up to get them to fit.
> 
> That changed the aicrafts handling.
> 
> So they patched some other software that wasn't related, to compensate
> and make it more or less feel like the old 737 so pilots did not have to
> get re certified.

I'm familiar with that part.
I'm less familiar with the part where "CS" comes in.
Which I don't think it did at any point.

I don't think it was a "CS person"'s decision to do it like that, given 
that we're talking about planes and not compilers (happy to be proven 
wrong and show that Boeing had a PhD in CS with executive power on it).

I don't have evidence that any "CS person" got a formal spec and failed to 
conform to it either (and if they did, they'd need _more_ science, not 
less!).

If anything, this looks like an utter project management failure, due to 
lack of (formal) communication and a lot of offshore programmers from 
Synechron and Tata, with about zero CS people involved.

I would, however, appreciate a correction.

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#93864

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-16 13:39 +0100
Message-ID<11at5ua$33n8m$41@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93851
On 16/10/2026 12:46, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 12:40:47 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
> 
>>>>> The kind of thing Boeing neglected to do lately, see: 737 MAX.
>>>>>
>>>> They relied on CS style theoretical solutions.
>>>
>>> Don't suppose you have a source for that?
>>>
>> Its all in the industry press.
>> Everywhere.
>>
>> They had to tilt the engines up to get them to fit.
>>
>> That changed the aicrafts handling.
>>
>> So they patched some other software that wasn't related, to compensate
>> and make it more or less feel like the old 737 so pilots did not have to
>> get re certified.
> 
> I'm familiar with that part.
> I'm less familiar with the part where "CS" comes in.
> Which I don't think it did at any point.
> 
> I don't think it was a "CS person"'s decision to do it like that, given
> that we're talking about planes and not compilers (happy to be proven
> wrong and show that Boeing had a PhD in CS with executive power on it).
> 
What I am saying is that the whole approach was theoretical and not 
practical

Just as CS is,


> I don't have evidence that any "CS person" got a formal spec and failed to
> conform to it either (and if they did, they'd need _more_ science, not
> less!).
> 
> If anything, this looks like an utter project management failure, due to
> lack of (formal) communication and a lot of offshore programmers from
> Synechron and Tata, with about zero CS people involved.
> 
Hardly fits with your claim that aerospace software is designed and 
guaranteed perfect by CS phds of the highesr calibre :-)

> I would, however, appreciate a correction.

I'd appreciate a consistent stance. Apart from "when its works, its 
computer scientists, when it doesn't its offshore programmers"

Is rather say 'when it works, engineers have designed it, when it fucks 
up, computer scientistss have designed it'

-- 
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight 
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

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#93865

FromTapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com>
Date2026-10-16 12:48 +0000
Message-ID<11at6es$31lan$22@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93864
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 13:39:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


> 
>> I don't have evidence that any "CS person" got a formal spec and failed
>> to conform to it either (and if they did, they'd need _more_ science,
>> not less!).
>> 
>> If anything, this looks like an utter project management failure, due
>> to lack of (formal) communication and a lot of offshore programmers
>> from Synechron and Tata, with about zero CS people involved.
>> 
> Hardly fits with your claim that aerospace software is designed and
> guaranteed perfect by CS phds of the highesr calibre

My claim is that there EXIST aerospace application for abstract 
interpretation that I'm aware of firsthand.

My claim is NOT that every aerospace application is handled by every 
aerospace company with the utmost scientific rigour in every department 
for every part of the project.

Logic 101 would teach you to mind the direction of the implication.

> I'd appreciate a consistent stance. 

Here you go: "If it's proven correct to a spec, it's either correct to the 
spec or there is an error in the proof that can be found. If there is no 
spec or the spec is wrong, ex falso quodlibet."

Please prove inconsistency.

> Is rather say 'when it works, engineers have designed it, when it fucks 
up, computer scientistss have designed it'

Computer scientists don't "design" things, they merely prove their 
impossibility, which is a much noble purpose.

Taht said, what _I'd_ frankly rather say is that you don't seem to be in 
the field, unless you moonlilght in workshops while holding a day job at 
IBM.

Your experience is limited even for being anecdotal.

Please let it go already. 

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#93810

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-16 09:16 +0100
Message-ID<11asmgi$33n8m$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93794
On 16/10/2026 05:00, c186282 wrote:
> CS is all math/stats. Has almost nothing to
>    do with the real-world these days. Maybe in
>    the 1940s .......

Yes. I had been writing code years before I read Knuth.

It was a revelation. Massively overcomplicated approach to the simplest 
things.

CS is great for people writing compilers, designing chips, or cracking 
enigma codes, but the reality of writing pragmatic workmanlike 
maintainable and well documented code on time and on budget is software 
engineering, not CS

CS is actually against the goals of this. It leads to over complexity 
and adoption of elegant, rather than functional design.

E.g. "All the problems of C++ would have been avoided if we had written 
it in C".


-- 
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of 
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on 
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is 
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into, 
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every 
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a 
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

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#93817

FromTapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com>
Date2026-10-16 08:51 +0000
Message-ID<11asoie$31lan$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93810
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 09:16:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


> CS is great for people writing compilers, designing chips, or cracking
> enigma codes, but the reality of writing pragmatic workmanlike
> maintainable and well documented code on time and on budget is software
> engineering, not CS

Well, duh?

Also nuclear physics is not required for changing a bulb, even if that 
bulb is powered by a nuclear plant.

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#93841

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-16 11:04 +0100
Message-ID<11assr3$33n8m$22@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93817
On 16/10/2026 09:51, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 09:16:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
> 
>> CS is great for people writing compilers, designing chips, or cracking
>> enigma codes, but the reality of writing pragmatic workmanlike
>> maintainable and well documented code on time and on budget is software
>> engineering, not CS
> 
> Well, duh?
> 
> Also nuclear physics is not required for changing a bulb, even if that
> bulb is powered by a nuclear plant.

Exactly, So why do people insist on hiring nuclear engineers to change 
light bulbs?
When they have never been taught to use a step ladder safely?

We are not arguing against CS per se, just against its inappropriateness 
in ordinary software design and development.

CS graduates should never in my experience get let anywhere near 
software design and development.

Its about as useless as expecting an ArtStudent™ to paint a room


-- 
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and 
all women"

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#93848

FromTapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com>
Date2026-10-16 11:13 +0000
Message-ID<11at0t3$31lan$14@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93841
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 11:04:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> CS graduates should never in my experience get let anywhere near
> software design and development.

I fully 100% support the creation of a regulated profession of software 
engineering, much like medicine and civil engineering, which has its own 
curriculum, etc., and is distinct from CS, much in the same way as 
architecture and civil engineering is distinct from physics and arts.

But in the present world, for hiring purposes, you have to choose between 
CS majors and... well, failed economists and physicists and Javascript 
bootcamp graduates with BAs in critical gender theory.

And believe me, the latter are on average a much greater threat to any 
project.

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#93855

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-16 13:03 +0100
Message-ID<11at3ra$33n8m$37@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93848
On 16/10/2026 12:13, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 11:04:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> CS graduates should never in my experience get let anywhere near
>> software design and development.
> 
> I fully 100% support the creation of a regulated profession of software
> engineering, much like medicine and civil engineering, which has its own
> curriculum, etc., and is distinct from CS, much in the same way as
> architecture and civil engineering is distinct from physics and arts.
> 
> But in the present world, for hiring purposes, you have to choose between
> CS majors and... well, failed economists and physicists and Javascript
> bootcamp graduates with BAs in critical gender theory.
> 
When hiring, I had the option between science band maths graduates who 
had taught themselves computing and were humble and hard working and 
arrogant CS graduates who thought that anyone without a CS degree didn't 
understand computers and were not worth paying respect to.
I learnt not to employ them,
Other employees came through vocational courses in 'IT' . Tey were brilliant

Of course I understood computers all the way from a two transistor flip 
flop register all the way up to machine code on a processor.

Something the CS people had no clue about

> And believe me, the latter are on average a much greater threat to any
> project.

The only people who employ those are the 'creative' houses in charge of 
designing web sites that look pretty and don't work.

Critical race theorist are almost as useless ans critical computer theorists

Computers simply are not science. They are machines. Science is 'natural 
philosophy' The study of the natural world.

Computers are not natural. Ergo 'computer science' is meaningless bollocks

QED

-- 
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

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#93861

FromTapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com>
Date2026-10-16 12:26 +0000
Message-ID<11at565$31lan$20@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93855
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 13:03:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Computers are not natural. Ergo 'computer science' is meaningless
> bollocks

I absolutely agree, the English term "computer science" is an unfortunate 
choice of words which had the main purpose of sounding trendy in the 50s 
(much like "artificial intelligence", "operations research", "linear 
programming").

Most pure / theoretical computer science is actually _computing_ science, 
i.e. the study of computational processes and their properties, with 
little regard to whether computation on abstract structures is carried out 
by mind or machine.

Does an algorithm terminate?
Which properties does a tree have?
What is computable? 

These are hardly computer-related topics and predate the first computers.

However, it must be noted that Von Neumann was likely familiar with the 
Turing machine as an abstraction and it influenced the Von Neumann design: 
maybe we needed a science of computation before we could build _practical_ 
computing machines?

On the other hand, the areas of distributed computing or databases or real 
time systems I'd clearly consider (theoretical) engineering, i.e. the 
study of man-made systems and their design.

You can find either at a CS conference.

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#93869

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-16 15:21 +0100
Message-ID<11atbt1$3bqcl$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93861
On 16/10/2026 13:26, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 13:03:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> Computers are not natural. Ergo 'computer science' is meaningless
>> bollocks
> 
> I absolutely agree, the English term "computer science" is an unfortunate
> choice of words which had the main purpose of sounding trendy in the 50s
> (much like "artificial intelligence", "operations research", "linear
> programming").
> 
> Most pure / theoretical computer science is actually _computing_ science,
> i.e. the study of computational processes and their properties, with
> little regard to whether computation on abstract structures is carried out
> by mind or machine.
> 
> Does an algorithm terminate?
> Which properties does a tree have?
> What is computable?
> 
> These are hardly computer-related topics and predate the first computers.
> 
> However, it must be noted that Von Neumann was likely familiar with the
> Turing machine as an abstraction and it influenced the Von Neumann design:
> maybe we needed a science of computation before we could build _practical_
> computing machines?

I think he exactly was. He's be a bit ignorant not to have been. Turing 
and Tommy flowers built the first computer. Turing was a mathematician, 
Flowers was an electronic engineer.

Both in their own way knew what was possible, and more importantly what 
was not.

The tragedy was that that work was classified for years and that all but 
two machines were  broken up.

Computer science was what the theoretical aspect of designing computers 
from scratch was called. But in practice it was electronic engineering. 
Once you know its a machine that does boolean shit, then its just a 
question of working out the basic gates you need and how to build them 
out of transistors and diodes (or originally vacuum tubes) and how to 
build basic elements like shift registers latches and adders and so on 
out of the gates.

Archtecture iswhat CS defined. Architecture is what engineers built.

> 
> On the other hand, the areas of distributed computing or databases or real
> time systems I'd clearly consider (theoretical) engineering, i.e. the
> study of man-made systems and their design.
> 
*shrug* there's a difference between as little theory as is necessary to 
get it working and as little practical application is possible to not 
sully the inner elegance of my algorithms..

ever hear  of the 7 layer model of network architecture? All very CS. 
All complete bollox.
TCP/IP took one look at it and threw it away. TCP was designed to work...


> You can find either at a CS conference.

Engineers are to busy to attend conferneces
-- 
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman


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#93878

FromLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
Date2026-10-16 15:07 +0000
Message-ID<18df0af89e578ec0$2720$2693458$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>
In reply to#93869
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 15:21:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> 
> Computer science was what the theoretical aspect of designing computers 
> from scratch was called. But in practice it was electronic engineering. 
>

I would challenge your esteemed engineers, übermenschen all, to
build a TERNARY computer from scratch.

Binary is only one possibility for computing machines.

They'd need to bring in the scientists.

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#93953

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-16 21:26 -0400
Message-ID<mMacnbgnUMp_U0_3nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#93878
On 10/16/26 11:07, Leroy H wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 15:21:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>>
>> Computer science was what the theoretical aspect of designing computers
>> from scratch was called. But in practice it was electronic engineering.
>>
> 
> I would challenge your esteemed engineers, übermenschen all, to
> build a TERNARY computer from scratch.
> 
> Binary is only one possibility for computing machines.
> 
> They'd need to bring in the scientists.

   Nope. Not at all.

   We use binary because of the HARDWARE aspects, not
   anything 'theoretical'. Transistors are only efficient
   in either fully-on or fully-off conditions, otherwise
   they're power-sucking 'resistors'. Tubes/valves are
   not STABLE enough to work at intermediate ranges for
   numeric work. OK for yer Pat Boone recordings though.

   Future electronics, and 'quantum' is one of those,
   may be able to stably work with 'in-between' states.
   Deca-state logic would be really cool, but don't
   expect to SEE it. Nature doesn't always cooperate.

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#93954

FromLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
Date2026-10-17 01:55 +0000
Message-ID<18df2e5c0929a19c$1877$2483150$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>
In reply to#93953
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 21:26:48 -0400, c186282 wrote:

>> 
>> I would challenge your esteemed engineers, übermenschen all, to
>> build a TERNARY computer from scratch.
>> 
> 
>    We use binary because of the HARDWARE aspects, not
>    anything 'theoretical'. 
>

The former Soviet Union produced a highly functional ternary computer:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer>

Supposedly, ternary has advantages over binary, but having
been schooled entirely in binary methodologies I cannot
comment much on this topic.

The wiki page gives a basic overview.

The original point, however, remains valid.  Contemporary
engineers would not know where to begin with ternary.
They'd need to call in the theoreticians.

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#93969

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-17 01:07 -0400
Message-ID<mMacnbQnUMoBn073nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#93954
On 10/16/26 21:55, Leroy H wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 21:26:48 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> I would challenge your esteemed engineers, übermenschen all, to
>>> build a TERNARY computer from scratch.
>>>
>>
>>     We use binary because of the HARDWARE aspects, not
>>     anything 'theoretical'.
>>
> 
> The former Soviet Union produced a highly functional ternary computer:
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer>

   So where are they all now ???

   "Highly successful" - sounds like a considerable
   exaggeration.

   Yes, you can FAKE tri-state/tetra-state, MAYBE even
   deca-state .... but it's not going to be efficient
   or compact.

> Supposedly, ternary has advantages over binary, but having
> been schooled entirely in binary methodologies I cannot
> comment much on this topic.

   Well, in theory, more bits are better.

   But there do seem to be reasons we've been
   using binary for everything since forever
   and it's not some Vast Konspiracy.

> The wiki page gives a basic overview.
> 
> The original point, however, remains valid.  Contemporary
> engineers would not know where to begin with ternary.
> They'd need to call in the theoreticians.

   Nope.

   Find a new career.

   The boring old engineers can handle it all nicely.

   Then the AIs will steal their careers :-)

   Theorists like von Neumann and Turing DID serve
   a purpose at the dawn of computing - provided
   some sane direction, approaches. After that
   however, CS became less and less useful in
   the real world.

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#93979

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 09:28 +0100
Message-ID<11avbj8$59n$10@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93953
On 17/10/2026 02:26, c186282 wrote:
> We use binary because of the HARDWARE aspects, not
>    anything 'theoretical'. Transistors are only efficient
>    in either fully-on or fully-off conditions, otherwise
>    they're power-sucking 'resistors'. Tubes/valves are
>    not STABLE enough to work at intermediate ranges for
>    numeric work. OK for yer Pat Boone recordings though.
> 
>    Future electronics, and 'quantum' is one of those,
>    may be able to stably work with 'in-between' states.
>    Deca-state logic would be really cool, but don't
>    expect to SEE it. Nature doesn't always cooperate.

Largely true, And boolean logic is very easy to map into simple hardware.
Analogue computers exist of course and are very very useful in niche 
applications

-- 
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that 
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell

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#93863

FromTapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com>
Date2026-10-16 12:35 +0000
Message-ID<11at5mo$31lan$21@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93855
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 13:03:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> When hiring, I had the option between science band maths graduates who
> had taught themselves computing and were humble and hard working and
> arrogant CS graduates who thought that anyone without a CS degree didn't
> understand computers and were not worth paying respect to.

As a side note, it's very likely that someone who's applying for a field 
they're not qualified for appears more humble.

You may find the economics graduates who do _not_ end crawling into 
computer stuff are not as humble and viceversa.

I also think that, generally, whoever opts for a "science" degree does not 
likely pride oneself in being "hard-working". 
Science as an intellectual pursuit was, and often still is, the province 
of noblemen and the wealthy for a reason.

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#93938

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-16 22:09 +0000
Message-ID<11au7a1$3m5co$10@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93863
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 12:35:36 -0000 (UTC), Tapiro Ubriaco wrote:

> I also think that, generally, whoever opts for a "science" degree
> does not likely pride oneself in being "hard-working".

Larry Wall, legendary creator of Perl and patch, listed, among the
virtues of a good programmer, “laziness” and “hubris”.

I can certainly appreciate the “laziness” part. I appreciate it when I
look at somebody’s PHP code, where the same validation sequence has
been copied and pasted a dozen times for a dozen different input
fields, instead of being defined in a single function which is simply
called in those dozen places.

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#93888

FromRobert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net>
Date2026-10-16 16:37 +0000
Message-ID<slrn11d4klo.kts.spamtrap42@one.localnet>
In reply to#93841
On 2026-10-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> ...
>
> Its about as useless as expecting an ArtStudent™ to paint a room

Saw that happen:

During the early 1990s, the Pentium Pro processor was being
designed on the 1st floor of building JF1.  Some executive called
that building's interior the ugliest building in the company.

Over a weekend or holiday, some art students from Portland State
University were brought in to prettify it.  They used four or
five colors to paint the pillars.  Each pillar was one color.
The pattern of colors looked random unless you looked at just the
right angle and discovered that the colors were in diagonal
stripes.

The comments from those who worked there were amusing.  Someone
thought the colored pillars made the building look like the set
of the Barney show or maybe Sesame Street.  My wife happened to
have a white handkerchief with small colored hears in a
semi-random pattern.  On a small strip of paper, I wrote "You Are
Here" next to a red arrow and placed the paper somewhere on the
handkerchief hung outside my cubicle.  Much laughter was heard.

The art students were probably pleased with their work (and what
they were paid for doing it).  Somebody under the executive added
the beautification project as an accomplishment for the next
annual performance review.  The executive probably never noticed
it.  Those who worked in the building quit noticing the colors
after a few days.

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#93917

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-16 19:51 +0000
Message-ID<njfdi7Fit4rU26@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#93841
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 11:04:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> CS graduates should never in my experience get let anywhere near
> software design and development.

At least in the US CS is sort of a blanket description of anything 
computer related:

https://rpi.app.box.com/s/340c6u82z66dx1k3ms627cp7kbtisqna

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