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Re: What's the best linux distro?

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  Re: What's the best linux distro? F Russell <fr@random.info> - 2021-08-23 23:04 +0000
    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-24 03:13 +0200
      Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-24 14:19 +0100
        Re: What's the best linux distro? Jimmy Johnson <Jimmy@disposable.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:47 -0700
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2021-08-26 04:05 +0000
            Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:48 +0100
          Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:46 +0100
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2021-08-26 12:11 +0000
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2021-08-26 13:21 +0000
                Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 16:53 +0100
              Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 16:51 +0100
    Re: What's the best linux distro? F Russell <fr@random.info> - 2021-08-24 12:53 +0000
      Re: What's the best linux distro? SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-25 00:41 -0400
        Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 10:18 +0100
        Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 11:56 +0200
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 12:10 +0100
            Re: X-post and follow-Up (Was: What's the best linux distro?) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:33 +0200
              Re: X-post and follow-Up Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 06:52 -0400
                Re: X-post and follow-Up "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:02 +0200
          Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 13:10 +0100
            Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 14:36 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 08:53 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 15:13 +0200
                Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 14:31 +0100
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:14 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:13 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 20:57 +0000
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-27 01:38 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:04 +0100
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-27 09:29 +0200
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-08-27 17:01 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:26 -0400
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:27 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 20:53 +0000
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:01 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-25 08:23 -0700
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:21 -0400
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-27 01:54 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-28 12:51 +0000
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-28 11:40 -0400
                          Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-28 17:39 +0000
                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-28 14:25 -0400
                          Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-28 23:08 +0200
                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-29 00:10 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 08:09 -0400
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:43 +0200
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:11 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:29 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-29 16:09 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 14:27 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2021-08-25 15:38 +0000
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 18:44 +0100
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:15 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2021-08-26 05:19 +0000
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:40 +0200
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:07 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:10 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 21:03 +0000
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-08-27 17:04 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-28 13:12 +0000
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-28 11:39 -0400
                          Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 11:05 +0100
                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 07:06 -0400
                              Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 12:50 +0100
                                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 08:07 -0400
                                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 13:23 +0100
                                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 11:38 -0400
                                      Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 22:45 +0100
                                        Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-30 01:10 +0200
                                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 20:18 -0400
                                          Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-30 08:23 +0100
                                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-30 08:02 -0400
                                              Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-30 14:26 +0100
                                              Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 10:13 +0100
                                                Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 10:38 +0100
                                                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-08-31 20:39 +0000
                                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-29 12:59 +0000
                                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 15:43 +0200
                                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 11:41 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:09 +0100
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:49 +0100
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:31 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 16:47 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? jjb <invalid@invalid.nl> - 2021-08-25 18:17 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-25 10:39 -0700
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-25 22:14 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 08:19 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:23 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 18:14 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:19 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:32 -0400
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:36 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 15:16 +0100
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Jimmy Johnson <Jimmy@disposable.invalid> - 2021-08-25 21:02 -0700
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2021-08-26 05:35 +0000
              Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:28 +0200
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-26 18:10 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-26 13:12 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-26 19:41 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2021-08-27 11:02 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:42 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2021-08-29 15:26 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:57 +0100
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 10:47 -0400
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 21:12 +0000
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-08-31 21:36 +0000
        Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 20:41 +0000
    Re: What's the best linux distro? SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-25 00:12 -0400

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#32947

Le 28-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>
>> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>>
>> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
>> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.
>
> You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
> It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
> That's ALWAYS going to be faster.

The boot process is faster, it's obvious. But the boot process takes
only the few first seconds of the time I'm using my computer. Once I'm
using my computer, I have no idea about the way to compare the
efficiency of SysV vs. systemd. Mostly when sytemd does stuff which where
lacking in SysV.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#32948

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:

> Le 28-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>
>>> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>>>
>>> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
>>> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.
>>
>> You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
>> It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
>> That's ALWAYS going to be faster.
>
> The boot process is faster, it's obvious. But the boot process takes
> only the few first seconds of the time I'm using my computer. Once I'm
> using my computer, I have no idea about the way to compare the
> efficiency of SysV vs. systemd. Mostly when sytemd does stuff which where
> lacking in SysV.

There should be no difference.
Both schemes start services.  Those services will run at the same speed
regardless of how they are started.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#32950

On 28/08/2021 17.40, Dan Espen wrote:
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> 
>> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>>
>> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
>> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.
> 
> You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
> It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
> That's ALWAYS going to be faster.
> 

The initd system used in openSUSE also started services in parallel.

-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#32951

On 28.08.2021 at 23:08, Carlos E. R. scribbled:

> On 28/08/2021 17.40, Dan Espen wrote:
> > Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> >   
> >> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :  
> >>> Besides that, systemd is faster.  
> >>
> >> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
> >> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.  
> > 
> > You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
> > It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
> > That's ALWAYS going to be faster.
> 
> The initd system used in openSUSE also started services in parallel.

So does the one in PCLinuxOS, but it's still SysVinit.  It has simply
been patched with parallel execution, and while it's definitely a lot
faster than the original SysVinit, it doesn't come anywhere near
systemd.

-- 
With respect,
= Aragorn =

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#32970

Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> 
>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>
>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>> bashing.
>
> 	Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but
> 	GNU/Linux without systemd was/is faster and is/was more
> 	reliable
> than when I used  systemd on Mageia 3.1.  I started with Mandriva
> 2006.  Before that I used Amiga computers from Commodore.

I'm sorry, but I've used Systemd on a much larger variety of distros,
and a far wider variety of systems, desktops, servers, laptops,
Raspberry Pi and Odroid SBCs, etc., and Systemd has been quite fast and
has been more reliable, mostly because the config for services is
simpler and not the hairball that SysV init and its scripts can easily
become.

The Amiga was really cool for the time, and in fact I was just watching
a documentary on it earlier this morning. (Damn you Irving Gould and
Mehdi Ali!) However, it was a pretty radical change from earlier
systems. The Mac, Atari ST, and Amiga were all part of a new wave of
computers that were big improvements in many ways over the older
personal computers.

There were many people who resisted "those new-fangled computers." I was
one. I didn't at first see the advantage to them vs. the Apple ][ that I
had been using at home. I later started using PCs with DOS and it wasn't
until much later with OS/2 2.1 that I started to use a GUI on a daily
basis.

I'm not going to claim that Systemd was as brilliant an improvement as
the Amiga was in 1985. However, for some people and some uses, it's
pretty brilliant. :-) I find it to be a very useful tool.

https://opensource.com/article/20/10/cgroups

This article talks about something that I find to be pretty brilliant
about Systemd. It's may not be meaningful for a desktop system that
only sees light duty, but for home lab or development use, or for
servers, it's very intriguing.


>
> 	Systemd may be handy for people who must maintain a lot of
> machines as in an Enterprise situation but for me on my laptops
> other solutions are available.

It's fine that you prefer other solutions on your laptops, and fine that
you use them. Use whatever you prefer. :-)

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#32976

On 29/08/2021 14.09, Bud Frede wrote:
> Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:


...
> I'm not going to claim that Systemd was as brilliant an improvement as
> the Amiga was in 1985. However, for some people and some uses, it's
> pretty brilliant. :-) I find it to be a very useful tool.
> 
> https://opensource.com/article/20/10/cgroups
> 
> This article talks about something that I find to be pretty brilliant
> about Systemd. It's may not be meaningful for a desktop system that
> only sees light duty, but for home lab or development use, or for
> servers, it's very intriguing.

cgroups, yes. I have used it and it is indeed useful and simple with
systemd.

> 
> 
>>
>> 	Systemd may be handy for people who must maintain a lot of
>> machines as in an Enterprise situation but for me on my laptops
>> other solutions are available.
> 
> It's fine that you prefer other solutions on your laptops, and fine that
> you use them. Use whatever you prefer. :-)
> 

Absolutely :-)

-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#32963

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a 
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>
> Systemd is unarguably faster.
> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.


I'm kind of surprised that some people are still whinging about
it. Systemd is what most distros are using and that's that.

It isn't perfect, but it works and it has useful features that SysV init
did not - features that I wanted and still value.

Actually, I lied. I'm not surprised that people are still whinging about
Systemd. People love to argue and beat a drum. It's plastic-tip
vs. metal-tip shoelaces all over again. :-)

(When people were arguing about something that was irrelevant,
meaningless, or already a forgone conclusion, my father used to say
"plastic-tip vs. metal-tip" to signify that it wasn't worth discussing.)

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#32973

On 29/08/2021 13.11, Bud Frede wrote:

> 
> I'm kind of surprised that some people are still whinging about
> it. Systemd is what most distros are using and that's that.
> 
> It isn't perfect, but it works and it has useful features that SysV init
> did not - features that I wanted and still value.
> 
> Actually, I lied. I'm not surprised that people are still whinging about
> Systemd. People love to argue and beat a drum. It's plastic-tip
> vs. metal-tip shoelaces all over again. :-)
> 
> (When people were arguing about something that was irrelevant,
> meaningless, or already a forgone conclusion, my father used to say
> "plastic-tip vs. metal-tip" to signify that it wasn't worth discussing.)

You are right :-)


-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#32981

On 29.08.2021 at 07:11, Bud Frede scribbled:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Systemd is unarguably faster.
> > The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> > The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that
> > were never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to
> > access a description of each service or getting a list of all
> > services.) IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with
> > this systemd bashing.  
> 
> I'm kind of surprised that some people are still whinging about
> it. Systemd is what most distros are using and that's that.

Haters gonna hate, and some people simply have an irrational fear of
change, even when "change" equals "better". <shrug>

-- 
With respect,
= Aragorn =

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#32829

On 25/08/2021 13:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Systemd is evil.
>>
>> Well on that I do agree.
>>
>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency, 
>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
> 
> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no 
> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a 
> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there was 
> nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
> 
> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
> 
> 
The problem is that it obsoleted a lot of tried and tested ways of 
bringing stuff online.

For example, before systemd my laptops had hard wired NFS mounts to my 
server in /etc/fstab.

The nfs layer came up after networking by wifi, the mounts were dine 
later and all was well.

To years later systemd had broken all the scripts and Poeterring just 
shrugged and said 'not my problem' and a further two years elapsed 
before people actually managed to rewrite all their initialization to 
conform to HIS opaque standards. And there are still messes around - 
stuff that boots up 'oddly'.

Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to alphanumerical 
order was perfectly OK

You looked at what systems your layer depended on, amd made sure you 
were later in the list.


-- 
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is 
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

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#32832

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> For example, before systemd my laptops had hard wired NFS mounts to my 
> server in /etc/fstab.
>
> The nfs layer came up after networking by wifi, the mounts were dine 
> later and all was well.
>
> To years later systemd had broken all the scripts

I have a few NFS mounts to my local NAS on my systemd-running laptop without
problems. Just a couple of lines in /etc/fstab, no scripts required.

> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to alphanumerical 
> order was perfectly OK

I find writing custom services is also a lot easier in systemd. Until once when
I tried to write a timer unit. That was crap.

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#32843

On 25/08/2021 16:38, Robert Latest wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> For example, before systemd my laptops had hard wired NFS mounts to my
>> server in /etc/fstab.
>>
>> The nfs layer came up after networking by wifi, the mounts were dine
>> later and all was well.
>>
>> To years later systemd had broken all the scripts
> 
> I have a few NFS mounts to my local NAS on my systemd-running laptop without
> problems. Just a couple of lines in /etc/fstab, no scripts required.

now yes. two years ago, forget it

> 
>> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to alphanumerical
>> order was perfectly OK
> 
> I find writing custom services is also a lot easier in systemd. Until once when
> I tried to write a timer unit. That was crap.
> 


-- 
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will 
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such 
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic 
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally 
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for 
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the 
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

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#32844

On 25/08/2021 17.38, Robert Latest wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> For example, before systemd my laptops had hard wired NFS mounts to my
>> server in /etc/fstab.
>>
>> The nfs layer came up after networking by wifi, the mounts were dine
>> later and all was well.
>>
>> To years later systemd had broken all the scripts
> 
> I have a few NFS mounts to my local NAS on my systemd-running laptop without
> problems. Just a couple of lines in /etc/fstab, no scripts required.

Same here.

>> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to alphanumerical
>> order was perfectly OK
> 
> I find writing custom services is also a lot easier in systemd. Until once when
> I tried to write a timer unit. That was crap.

You can use cron instead, you have both. At least I do.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#32857

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 25/08/2021 17.38, Robert Latest wrote:
>> I find writing custom services is also a lot easier in systemd. Until once
>> when I tried to write a timer unit. That was crap.
>
> You can use cron instead, you have both. At least I do.

Of course I ended up using cron for the timed thing. But for processes I want
to run permanently in the background, and that I want restarted upon a crash,
with proper logging, without having to bother how to properly demonize them,
systemd beats init.

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#32869

On 26/08/2021 07.19, Robert Latest wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 17.38, Robert Latest wrote:
>>> I find writing custom services is also a lot easier in systemd. Until once
>>> when I tried to write a timer unit. That was crap.
>>
>> You can use cron instead, you have both. At least I do.
> 
> Of course I ended up using cron for the timed thing. But for processes I want
> to run permanently in the background, and that I want restarted upon a crash,
> with proper logging, without having to bother how to properly demonize them,
> systemd beats init.

I recently migrated a cron job to a systemd timer (for leafnode). I 
didn't know how to do that, but fortunately the packager had already 
done that, just that the timer was not enabled.

Then I wanted to change its timing, and I tried to do that, which 
failed. So I asked in the openSUSE mail list, got an exact answer within 
a day, and the issue was solved.

As I mentioned, the original file is intact, but my installation 
contains a modification that will survive updates. It is a nice method 
for distributions, easy to maintain.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#32834

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 13:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no 
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>> 
> The problem is that it obsoleted a lot of tried and tested ways of
> bringing stuff online.

initd still works on my Fedora system:

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/system-administrators-guide/infrastructure-services/Services_and_Daemons/

-- 
Dan Espen

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#32835

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to
> alphanumerical order was perfectly OK

Bull, it was a f***ing mess.

As I said, systemd faster, easier to understand, way more capable.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#32897

Le 25-08-2021, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> a écrit :
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> Having scripts execute in an orderly fashion according to
>> alphanumerical order was perfectly OK
>
> Bull, it was a f***ing mess.
>
> As I said, systemd faster, easier to understand, way more capable.

Agreed. I don't understand the need to have to chose the order of the
services. Why should I care to now if my printer must be started before
or after my webcam?

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#32923

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>Agreed. I don't understand the need to have to chose the order of the
>services. Why should I care to now if my printer must be started before
>or after my webcam?

Imagine you have a DNS server for your IPv6 VPN users, and the VPN
server must be reachable over IPv6. That needs network, and the IPv6
setup to be finished (no more tentative addresses, that takes a few
seconds), before starting the VPN server (or it wouldnt be able to
bind the IPv6 address). Then the VPN server starts, a new interface
appears, the IPv6 address gets configured on the new interface (again
taking a few seconds for duplicate address detection to finish and the
address to lose its tentative status). Only if that's finished, the
DNS server can start.

It's all about order. And if the order isn't right, you either end up
without VPN, or without DNS server. That matters very much.

Took me half a day to get this right with systemd. But I was a newbie
back then, it would probably only be an hour today.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

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#32939

Le 27-08-2021, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>>Agreed. I don't understand the need to have to chose the order of the
>>services. Why should I care to now if my printer must be started before
>>or after my webcam?
>
> Imagine you have a DNS server for your IPv6 VPN users, and the VPN
> server must be reachable over IPv6. That needs network, and the IPv6
> setup to be finished (no more tentative addresses, that takes a few
> seconds), before starting the VPN server (or it wouldnt be able to
> bind the IPv6 address). Then the VPN server starts, a new interface
> appears, the IPv6 address gets configured on the new interface (again
> taking a few seconds for duplicate address detection to finish and the
> address to lose its tentative status). Only if that's finished, the
> DNS server can start.
>
> It's all about order. And if the order isn't right, you either end up
> without VPN, or without DNS server. That matters very much.

Of course some services must be started before others. And systemd
provide a way to do it. But the possibility to order some services
doesn't force me to chose the order every service. You can say the
logs must be started before everything else for example.

In some cases, as a socket is created, a service depending on another
one can be started before the first one because the information will
be cached and sent as soon as the service is available.

> Took me half a day to get this right with systemd. But I was a newbie
> back then, it would probably only be an hour today.

I never said systemd is easy to understand. It would be a lie. But
saying SysV is easy would be a lie too.

At first when something wrong happened and I discovered systemd, I
found the war against systemd. As I had issues with systemd I wanted
to join the war and looked harder. And the more I looked, the more I
found systemd interesting. There are real issues with systemd, it does
things it shouldn't. But nothing else does them and as it start the
process it makes sense to let it do them.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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