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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 387 — 26 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:19 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 17:26 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-20 13:37 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-21 14:23 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-20 10:51 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-20 21:20 +0200
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-20 10:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20261020105404.000027e5@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #94384 |
On Tue, 20 Oct 2026 09:16:25 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > > You yourself started off this discussion talking about "music > > existing ten thousand years before music theory," so grouping > > classical Chinese and Pythagorean thought in with post-Renaissance > > Western theory is as fair as anything. They didn't have*any* of > > those in the Paleolithic. > > There are those who thinks that science discovers truths and > mathematics are inherent to the universe and you cant do anything > without a 'theory' > > Philosophers have by and large concluded that that is all bollox. All > of them are human *inventions*. Nobody but you is claiming "you can't do anything without a theory" as a position implied by an analytical outlook. Of *course* you can, and millions *did,* before anybody got around to developing it; the fact that these things are discoverable means you don't have to be *told* in order to make use of them. Theory is nothing more than an attempt to codify what's *been* discovered, to make it easier to learn & apply. > If you want to *believe* otherwise, there isn't much I can say I don't have to "believe" anything here; the fact that mathematics is innately complete and inherent to reality is self-demonstrating, as any child who's ever learned to count should know. Have two, get two, have four - that's addition, and it was so before the very first hominid who stopped to *think* about the number of tasty bits of fruit and game in his private cache. Nature has been adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing things from the first instant of the universe, and it'd be doing that even if we'd never gotten around to putting names to those. > > How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very > > very long ago? before the theory was developed formally? > > Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or > more fixed notes It's in the nature of *some* instruments to produce fixed notes; others (e.g. unfretted string instruments, slide whistles, or the human voice) are not thus limited. And for those which are - which notes, and why? Certainly the folks chipping flutes out of bone in the caves of the Ice Age got it by trial and error, but there *is* a system to it, as we'd worked out by the days of ancient Mesopotamia (we have Sumerian texts on music theory going back to 2+ millennia BC.)
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 10:07 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b9vcf$3p0ft$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94409 |
On 20/10/2026 18:54, John Ames wrote: > On Tue, 20 Oct 2026 09:16:25 +0100 > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >>> You yourself started off this discussion talking about "music >>> existing ten thousand years before music theory," so grouping >>> classical Chinese and Pythagorean thought in with post-Renaissance >>> Western theory is as fair as anything. They didn't have*any* of >>> those in the Paleolithic. >> >> There are those who thinks that science discovers truths and >> mathematics are inherent to the universe and you cant do anything >> without a 'theory' >> >> Philosophers have by and large concluded that that is all bollox. All >> of them are human *inventions*. > > Nobody but you is claiming "you can't do anything without a theory" Actually that is exactly what they *are* doing > as > a position implied by an analytical outlook. Of *course* you can, and > millions *did,* before anybody got around to developing it; the fact > that these things are discoverable means you don't have to be *told* in > order to make use of them. Theory is nothing more than an attempt to > codify what's *been* discovered, to make it easier to learn & apply. > >> If you want to *believe* otherwise, there isn't much I can say > > I don't have to "believe" anything here; the fact that mathematics is > innately complete and inherent to reality is self-demonstrating, as any > child who's ever learned to count should know. Gödels Incompleteness theorem ? > Have two, get two, have > four - that's addition, and it was so before the very first hominid who > stopped to *think* about the number of tasty bits of fruit and game in > his private cache. Nature has been adding, subtracting, multiplying, > and dividing things from the first instant of the universe, and it'd be > doing that even if we'd never gotten around to putting names to those. > Nature hasn't Human minds have >>> How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very >>> very long ago? before the theory was developed formally? >> >> Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or >> more fixed notes > > It's in the nature of *some* instruments to produce fixed notes; others > (e.g. unfretted string instruments, slide whistles, or the human voice) > are not thus limited. > > And for those which are - which notes, and why? Certainly the folks > chipping flutes out of bone in the caves of the Ice Age got it by trial > and error, but there *is* a system to it, as we'd worked out by the > days of ancient Mesopotamia (we have Sumerian texts on music theory > going back to 2+ millennia BC.) > Whichjh I am sure every single black slave learnt before creating jazz, rhythm and blues out of exposure to the white man's instruments -- Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age. Richard Lindzen
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 14:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njruvdF3j5uU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94454 |
On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 10:07:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > Whichjh I am sure every single black slave learnt before creating jazz, > rhythm and blues out of exposure to the white man's instruments I'm sure Bach would be appalled by bending a note.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 15:17 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11bahi4$b33$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94492 |
On 21/10/2026 15:02, rbowman wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 10:07:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > >> Whichjh I am sure every single black slave learnt before creating jazz, >> rhythm and blues out of exposure to the white man's instruments > > I'm sure Bach would be appalled by bending a note. Who the fuck cares? Plenty of heavy metal/classical guitarists shredding Bach out of existence I wonder what nightingales know of music theory -- "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 20:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njska0F3j5uU13@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94493 |
On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 15:17:39 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 21/10/2026 15:02, rbowman wrote: >> On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 10:07:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> >>> Whichjh I am sure every single black slave learnt before creating >>> jazz, >>> rhythm and blues out of exposure to the white man's instruments >> >> I'm sure Bach would be appalled by bending a note. > > Who the fuck cares? Plenty of heavy metal/classical guitarists shredding > Bach out of existence True but they use the Shitty-Tempered Fender. Much of that goes back to Africans exposed to western instruments. 'Man, dat doan sound right. Gonna choke the shit outta dat thing. Flat dem fifths'
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 11:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20261021114918.000056b6@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #94454 |
On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 10:07:27 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > > Have two, get two, have four - that's addition, and it was so > > before the very first hominid who stopped to *think* about the > > number of tasty bits of fruit and game in his private cache. Nature > > has been adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing things from > > the first instant of the universe, and it'd be doing that even if > > we'd never gotten around to putting names to those. > > Nature hasn't Human minds have Force of impact is equal to mass * velocity^2. Gravitational attract- ion falls off with the square of distance; magnetic force falls off with its cube. Math is happening across the universe and all around you, whether you recognize it or not. > > And for those which are - which notes, and why? Certainly the folks > > chipping flutes out of bone in the caves of the Ice Age got it by > > trial and error, but there *is* a system to it, as we'd worked out > > by the days of ancient Mesopotamia (we have Sumerian texts on music > > theory going back to 2+ millennia BC.) > > Whichjh I am sure every single black slave learnt before creating > jazz, rhythm and blues out of exposure to the white man's instruments Again you do not seem to grasp that "did not receive a formal education in a Western musical college" does *not* mean "never learned anything from anyone and created the whole thing ex nihilo." And African-American music forms didn't just spring out of a vacuum, either; blues picked up notable influences from music of the Islamic world due to the Sahel heritage of many slaves taken to the Americas, and early jazz blended an approach to harmony influenced by European hymnody with traditional African and American folk music. They are hybrid forms developed by people who were exposed to a wide variety of musical traditions and deliberately incorporated the elements they liked into something unique, not just something that happens when you toss a fungible mass of black people into a roomful of instruments. > > And those fixed notes tend to have fixed relationships between them > > (e.g. harmonics). > > No, they dont. > > On multi-fixed pitch like say pan pipes or an ocarina, they are made > to have that relationship because its sounds 'better', in a way that > no one can really explain, to random spacings > > Possibly the theory of intermodulation distortion can say why, but no > music theory can. "No one can really explain" is a funny way of saying "I, personally, do not know." In reality - as has already been discussed - the basic relationship of harmony to simple frequency ratios has been understood for millennia; this gave rise to tuning systems derived from integer multiples (what is commonly called Pythagorean tuning, although it actually predates Pythagoras and was probably independently invented in multiple places, as in e.g. the Chinese instrument we were discussing elsethread.) This is an attractively simple way to do things, because the basics are both easy to calculate and easy to tune by ear - 2:1 is an octave, 3:2 is a fifth, and you can stack fifths and drop back down an octave to successively derive each note on the scale... ...almost. Unfortunately, basic math says no power of 1.5 is ever going to be a power of 2, and by the time you get from C up to B, you're at an octave-adjusted multiple of 0.94921875 - over 5% left to go before you reach the octave! This is known as the "wolf interval," and various traditions have different ways of dealing with it: Chinese traditional, I gather, shuffles it around in different modes, while AFAICT Indian 24- tone music is actually a whole family of scales in which sets of notes are pitched differently to avoid it. Equal temperament in Western music divides it up by spacing each note slightly wider than the ideal, so that the difference isn't terribly noticeable and the steps all add up. So there you have it: a straightforward reason for the conspicuously non-random intervals between notes. > Who the fuck cares? Plenty of heavy metal/classical guitarists > shredding Bach out of existence And yet another *immensely* funny take. Would this be a good time to point out that, f'rexample, Ritchie Blackmore's solo in "Highway Star" was inspired by ol' J.S. himself? > I wonder what nightingales know of music theory When circumstances align to let me become one, I'll be sure and write it up for you. Until then, I'm content to learn what I can and quietly envy the creatures that can do it by instinct.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 15:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20261021150910.00002be8@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #94507 |
On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 11:49:18 -0700 John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote: > go before you reach the octave! This is known as the "wolf interval," :s/wolf interval/Pythagorean comma/
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| From | Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 09:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b9vno$3o235$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94409 |
On Tue, 20 Oct 2026 10:54:04 -0700, John Ames wrote: > I don't have to "believe" anything here; the fact that mathematics is > innately complete and inherent to reality is self-demonstrating, as any > child who's ever learned to count should know. Have two, get two, have > four - that's addition, and it was so before the very first hominid who > stopped to *think* about the number of tasty bits of fruit and game in > his private cache. Then again, it's self evident that the inner angles of a triangle always sum up to a straight angle. Any child who has tried to cut a triangle out of a sheet of paper, and then cut the angles and lay them adjacent to one another should know. A more adventurous child might have tried to do that with a triangle drawn on an orange, or a balloon... and found out they don't necessarily add up :-) That child would have then found out the need to systematise geometry and distinguish between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries with their axioms and rules of inference... :-)
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 10:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20261021100437.000079a4@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #94456 |
On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 09:13:29 -0000 (UTC) Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> wrote: > > I don't have to "believe" anything here; the fact that mathematics > > is innately complete and inherent to reality is self-demonstrating, > > as any child who's ever learned to count should know. Have two, get > > two, have four - that's addition, and it was so before the very > > first hominid who stopped to *think* about the number of tasty bits > > of fruit and game in his private cache. > > Then again, it's self evident that the inner angles of a triangle > always sum up to a straight angle. > > Any child who has tried to cut a triangle out of a sheet of paper, > and then cut the angles and lay them adjacent to one another should > know. > > A more adventurous child might have tried to do that with a triangle > drawn on an orange, or a balloon... and found out they don't > necessarily add up :-) > > That child would have then found out the need to systematise geometry > and distinguish between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries with > their axioms and rules of inference... :-) Sure - but this is also discoverable, as your own example shows. It's certainly quicker and easier to learn from someone who already knows, but it's *possible* to work this stuff out independently.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 20:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njskt8F3j5uU15@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94499 |
On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 10:04:37 -0700, John Ames wrote: > Sure - but this is also discoverable, as your own example shows. It's > certainly quicker and easier to learn from someone who already knows, > but it's *possible* to work this stuff out independently. iirc one of Plato's dialogs was showing a person he really knew geometry although he didn't know he knew. I wasn't convinced.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-20 10:51 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <blmjqmx0ds.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94366 |
On 2026-10-20 00:09, John Ames wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:48:59 +0100 > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >>> The chinese Classic of Music dates back to about 3000 years ago and >>> the Pythagorean school is not that far behind, but ok. >> >> 'music theory' *as we know it today * has only existed a couple of >> hundred years > > You yourself started off this discussion talking about "music existing > ten thousand years before music theory," so grouping classical Chinese > and Pythagorean thought in with post-Renaissance Western theory is as > fair as anything. They didn't have *any* of those in the Paleolithic. How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very very long ago? before the theory was developed formally? Google says the western notes appeared between 6th and 11th centuries. They had to know some theory. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-20 14:18 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b7pnp$305dq$11@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94390 |
On 20/10/2026 09:51, Carlos E.R. wrote: > How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very very > long ago? before the theory was developed formally? Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or more fixed notes -- “It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into, we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a power-directed system of thought.” Sir Roger Scruton
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-20 19:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <tXOBS.7017$5Iy.1059@fx04.iad> |
| In reply to | #94398 |
On 2026-10-20, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > On 20/10/2026 09:51, Carlos E.R. wrote: > >> How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very very >> long ago? before the theory was developed formally? > > Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or > more fixed notes And those fixed notes tend to have fixed relationships between them (e.g. harmonics). -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 10:15 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b9vr7$3p0ft$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94422 |
On 20/10/2026 20:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > On 2026-10-20, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> On 20/10/2026 09:51, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> >>> How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very very >>> long ago? before the theory was developed formally? >> >> Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or >> more fixed notes > > And those fixed notes tend to have fixed relationships between them > (e.g. harmonics). > No, they dont. On multi-fixed pitch like say pan pipes or an ocarina, they are made to have that relationship because its sounds 'better', in a way that no one can really explain, to random spacings Possibly the theory of intermodulation distortion can say why, but no music theory can. -- “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.” Herbert Spencer
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 17:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <AH6CS.77654$R0u.21291@fx07.iad> |
| In reply to | #94458 |
On 2026-10-21, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 20/10/2026 20:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2026-10-20, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/10/2026 09:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>>> How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very very
>>>> long ago? before the theory was developed formally?
>>>
>>> Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or
>>> more fixed notes
>>
>> And those fixed notes tend to have fixed relationships between them
>> (e.g. harmonics).
>
> No, they dont.
>
> On multi-fixed pitch like say pan pipes or an ocarina, they are made to
> have that relationship because its sounds 'better', in a way that no one
> can really explain, to random spacings
>
> Possibly the theory of intermodulation distortion can say why, but no
> music theory can.
I was thinking of multiple pitches produced by a single vibrating
element, e.g. a horn or single string ("single-fixed pitch" vs.
"multi-fixed pitch").
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people:
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-20 21:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <chrkqmxhtm.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94398 |
On 2026-10-20 15:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 20/10/2026 09:51, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very >> very long ago? before the theory was developed formally? > > Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or > more fixed notes Certainly, but they had a certain separation between them and not another. They knew. It was not random. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 02:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njqn5cFei39U68@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94425 |
On Tue, 20 Oct 2026 21:20:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-20 15:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 20/10/2026 09:51, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very >>> very long ago? before the theory was developed formally? >> >> Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or >> more fixed notes > > Certainly, but they had a certain separation between them and not > another. They knew. It was not random. With Native American simple system flutes it was the width of a thumb, the thumb belonging to whoever made the flute. The holes were the same size. I've made some passable PVC Irish flutes. It's a bit more complicated. https://www.anycalculator.com/pvcpipeflute.html I don't even want to think about how much experimentation went into developing a Boehm system flute.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-21 10:16 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b9vt7$3p0ft$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94425 |
On 20/10/2026 20:20, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-20 15:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 20/10/2026 09:51, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very >>> very long ago? before the theory was developed formally? >> >> Because it is in the nature of musical instruments to produce one or >> more fixed notes > > Certainly, but they had a certain separation between them and not > another. They knew. It was not random. > Exactly, And they knew without any theory at all, It just 'sounded right' in some indefinable way -- “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.” Herbert Spencer
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-20 18:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njpq23Fei39U60@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94390 |
On Tue, 20 Oct 2026 10:51:23 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-20 00:09, John Ames wrote: >> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:48:59 +0100 The Natural Philosopher >> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > > > >>>> The chinese Classic of Music dates back to about 3000 years ago and >>>> the Pythagorean school is not that far behind, but ok. >>> >>> 'music theory' *as we know it today * has only existed a couple of >>> hundred years >> >> You yourself started off this discussion talking about "music existing >> ten thousand years before music theory," so grouping classical Chinese >> and Pythagorean thought in with post-Renaissance Western theory is as >> fair as anything. They didn't have *any* of those in the Paleolithic. > > How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very very > long ago? before the theory was developed formally? > > Google says the western notes appeared between 6th and 11th centuries. > > They had to know some theory. What theory did the East Asians use?
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-20 11:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20261020114638.00005968@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #94415 |
On 20 Oct 2026 18:26:11 GMT rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > > How come the instruments have fixed notes, and these appeared very > > very long ago? before the theory was developed formally? > > > > Google says the western notes appeared between 6th and 11th > > centuries. > > > > They had to know some theory. > > What theory did the East Asians use? Per a brief survey of Wikipedia, the particulars are unclear (the oldest indicated text, the Classic of Music, was probably lost in Qin Shi Huang's Ye Olde Cultural Revolution, though fragments have been preserved in later works,) but the guqin goes back a good 3000 years, and uses a scale based on the harmonic series - something akin to Pythagorean tuning, if I'm understanding correctly.
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