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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 319 — 24 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:02 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:04 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 17:26 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:39 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:07 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad4c90c$0$7096$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94182 |
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : > On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > > [..] >> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can >> replace an experienced programmer. > > I do believe that. Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every edge case is broken. I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered. So, if you have a need at home, it can help. But a real production product in a company would only jeopardise its IS. It's really not ready. In a company, you have security issues and a kid without understanding can only destroy the company. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2hvm$15v8v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94185 |
On 18/10/2026 15:26, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : >> On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> >> [..] >>> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can >>> replace an experienced programmer. >> >> I do believe that. > > Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every > edge case is broken. Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI? > I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product > and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the > report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge > mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered. A year ago I tried Claude (if I recall correctly) to find a solution to sorting a grid by column in Wx Perl. It came up with a short answer which involved a call to a non-existing Wx function to sort the column. That was a year ago. About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up again). And AI came up with a correct implementation. A lot has changed in less than a year. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad4d1d2$0$28069$426a34cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94189 |
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : > On 18/10/2026 15:26, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : >>> On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >>> >>> [..] >>>> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can >>>> replace an experienced programmer. >>> >>> I do believe that. >> >> Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every >> edge case is broken. > > Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI? No. I see the results and I know people who are using AI with good results. The fact is that AI that I'm fed with are prompted by people believing they can use AI better than an experience guy (which is what I mean by a kid) and the results are shit. Mostly in areas, like translation or documentation, in which AI can be great. But for the result to be great, the guy using AI must know what he does. >> I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product >> and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the >> report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge >> mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered. > > A year ago I tried Claude (if I recall correctly) to find a solution to > sorting a grid by column in Wx Perl. It came up with a short answer > which involved a call to a non-existing Wx function to sort the column. > > That was a year ago. > > About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up > again). And AI came up with a correct implementation. There's a huge difference between changing a program and creating a long program from scratch. And there is a huge difference between creating a two lines prompt to create a very long program and creating a very long program with a lot of feed back to the prompt. Because the kid can't know how to get the good feed back. By a kid, I don't mean an 18 years old who spent all his spare time learning about CS and AI who could have a knowledge close to an experienced programmer. I mean a normal kid. At the University, I knew one or two students who had more knowledge than some teachers. They are not what I'm calling a kid. So when you ask me if I tried it, it doesn't matter because if I'm not a programmer, I worked with enough programmers to know what to look for and how to direct AI. Which a kid couldn't do. Not so long ago a medic asked me if I wasn't afraid of AI for my job. But the fact is that my job was already challenged since decades by Indians guy who are cheaper. So don't ask me to try it to see if it could replace a kid because I'm not an un-experienced kid. At work I don't program. At home, when I do some scripts, it's for fun, so using AI would only remove the fun. So, no, I don't use AI. That doesn't mean I don't know what AI is and that doesn't mean I don't know what AI can do. And I have worked with kids which need to be directed to understand the difference between the theoretical concepts they learned at school and the real life programs with everything coming with them. > A lot has changed in less than a year. Yes, I know that and I'm not challenging that. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2kqr$17273$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94195 |
On 18/10/2026 16:04, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : [..] >> Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI? > > No. I see the results and I know people who are using AI with good > results. The fact is that AI that I'm fed with are prompted by people > believing they can use AI better than an experience guy (which is what I > mean by a kid) and the results are shit. Mostly in areas, like > translation or documentation, in which AI can be great. But for the > result to be great, the guy using AI must know what he does. In my experience this is less and less the case. AI has improved with giant steps in less than a year. [..] >> About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up >> again). And AI came up with a correct implementation. > > There's a huge difference between changing a program and creating a long > program from scratch. As long as you guide the AI it will keep coming up with code that works. If it doesn't work ask it to fix it. >. And there is a huge difference between creating a > two lines prompt to create a very long program and creating a very long > program with a lot of feed back to the prompt. Because the kid can't > know how to get the good feed back. People are writing instructions for AI that one can (re)use. Such instructions make it possible to keep the human prompts short as they become part of a prompt. One can even instruct AI to write these instructions (/init). I often start my prompt with "As a professional Perl programmer" or "As a professional Python programmer". ;-) > By a kid, I don't mean an 18 years old who spent all his spare time > learning about CS and AI who could have a knowledge close to an > experienced programmer. Me, neither. > So don't ask me to try it to see if it could replace a kid because I'm > not an un-experienced kid. At work I don't program. At home, when I do > some scripts, it's for fun, From an earlier post I came to understand that you struggle with Python. > so using AI would only remove the fun. So, In my experience it doesn't. It's like having a co-worker who doesn't get tired with helping out. Or doesn't act condescending. Code reviews are fun, and explanations are excellent. > no, I don't use AI. That doesn't mean I don't know what AI is and that > doesn't mean I don't know what AI can do. I think it does. Like I said, it has changed, a lot, in just a year. And next month it will be better. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b2iqn$11pis$38@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94180 |
On 18/10/2026 14:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : >> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> [..] >>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>> >>> No theory required >> >> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >> >> No theory required. > > Well, I know people who use greatly AI. I saw the some prompts to create > really good things: they are not easy. Maybe one day it will suffice to > tell an AI to read one mind and create what's expected. But that day is > not today. > > I let The Blind Natural Philosopher (Yes, I know, there are some morons > with whom I don't want to argue, so the insult isn't mean to improve > arguing with him) quote to show I know the context and the way you mean > it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can > replace an experienced programmer. > There is a a difference between an experienced programmer and a good one. AI is likely better than a CS graduate who thinks he has 'special knowledge' and can insult intelligence that gains a view from experience rather than out of a book -- “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of one’s suitability to be taken seriously.” Paul Krugman
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| From | Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 09:37 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b4obs$1tnv4$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94193 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:50:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > AI is likely better than a CS graduate who thinks he has 'special > knowledge' Seriously, what the hell are we even talking about.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 12:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b4tfc$1vgjd$8@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94306 |
On 19/10/2026 10:37, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:50:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > > >> AI is likely better than a CS graduate who thinks he has 'special >> knowledge' > > Seriously, what the hell are we even talking about. CompSci and the deification of 'theory' over practice -- "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 16:17 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b5cad$25961$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94166 |
On 2026-10-18, John Bokma wrote: > On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > [..] >> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >> >> No theory required > > A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to > copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. > Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. > > No theory required. But does the 15 year old already have the knowledge required to make sure the GenAI output isn't garbage? -- Nuno Silva
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 17:33 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b5d8s$26eu7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94337 |
On 19/10/2026 17:17, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2026-10-18, John Bokma wrote: > >> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> [..] >>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>> >>> No theory required >> >> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >> >> No theory required. > > But does the 15 year old already have the knowledge required to make > sure the GenAI output isn't garbage? Just let another GenAI do a strict code review ;-) -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
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| Date | 2026-10-19 17:26 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b5gbp$270al$11@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94337 |
On 19/10/2026 16:17, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2026-10-18, John Bokma wrote: > >> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> [..] >>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>> >>> No theory required >> >> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >> >> No theory required. > > But does the 15 year old already have the knowledge required to make > sure the GenAI output isn't garbage? > He hasn't been forcefed a CS degree? -- “when things get difficult you just have to lie” ― Jean Claud Jüncker
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
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| Date | 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njkntoFei39U37@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94165 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 13:13:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some > fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. Better he should pick up a tin whistle or Irish flute. Diatonic instruments have an advantage plus the fingering is a lot easier.
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
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| Date | 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad493c1$0$10324$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94077 |
Le 17-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : > On 2026-10-17 10:52, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> >> If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things: >> first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were >> unable to read a partition. >> >> And that's were his confusion resides. They knew very well what they >> were doing. Some of the interviews they gave proved that if they were >> unable to put theoretical names on what they did, they were well aware >> of the effects had on the ears. So, even if they learned by themselves, >> they knew some musical theory: it wasn't useless because without it they >> wouldn't have stand out. > > I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them to > many previous musicians the world over. The maths applied to them. The > theory matched what they did. I didn't knew it, but I'm not surprised. One can't become one of the most famous band in the world with random creation. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
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| Date | 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <D1qdnXbkH9DbBUn3nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94123 |
On 10/18/26 05:39, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 17-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : >> On 2026-10-17 10:52, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >>> >>> If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things: >>> first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were >>> unable to read a partition. >>> >>> And that's were his confusion resides. They knew very well what they >>> were doing. Some of the interviews they gave proved that if they were >>> unable to put theoretical names on what they did, they were well aware >>> of the effects had on the ears. So, even if they learned by themselves, >>> they knew some musical theory: it wasn't useless because without it they >>> wouldn't have stand out. >> >> I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them to >> many previous musicians the world over. The maths applied to them. The >> theory matched what they did. > > I didn't knew it, but I'm not surprised. One can't become one of the > most famous band in the world with random creation. Really ? Never heard of you. Skip the hubris.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
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| Date | 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b28ib$11pis$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94123 |
On 18/10/2026 10:39, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 17-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : >> On 2026-10-17 10:52, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >>> >>> If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things: >>> first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were >>> unable to read a partition. >>> >>> And that's were his confusion resides. They knew very well what they >>> were doing. Some of the interviews they gave proved that if they were >>> unable to put theoretical names on what they did, they were well aware >>> of the effects had on the ears. So, even if they learned by themselves, >>> they knew some musical theory: it wasn't useless because without it they >>> wouldn't have stand out. >> >> I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them to >> many previous musicians the world over. The maths applied to them. The >> theory matched what they did. > > I didn't knew it, but I'm not surprised. One can't become one of the > most famous band in the world with random creation. > Except that they did -- I would rather have questions that cannot be answered... ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned Richard Feynman
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
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| Date | 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b27t4$11pis$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94077 |
On 17/10/2026 21:17, Carlos E.R. wrote: ouldn't have stand out. > > I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them to > many previous musicians the world over. Yep. All the obes Pail McCartney had listened to ] < The maths applied to them. The > theory matched what they did. > It may well have done. They didn't *use* it though,. They dreamed up songs that 'sounded right' using all sorts of weird harmonic progressions that theorists have scratched their heads over since... -- All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is fully understood.
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| From | Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 09:36 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b4oa0$1tnv4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93986 |
On 17 Oct 2026 08:52:49 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things: > first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were > unable to read a partition. The Beatles were "pop musicians", i.e. singer-songwriters-lyricists- showmen operating within the constraints of the pop music record industry. I.e. their profession is only 30% "musicians". I probably love the Beatles more than you do, mind you, but if either of them had to earn a living in a Broadway pit, in an orchestra or as a sideman for anyone else, they would _starve_. Anybody who thinks otherwise ought to try and replicate the Beatles' success and see how it goes. Even then, _OF COURSE_ the Beatles had some theoretical background, like any songwriter! Some songwriters are quite limited in their toolbox (I-IV-V and some pentatonics), other are more refined, with McCarney especially being at the "more refined" end of the pop spectrum. Do you think they wrote songs by trying every possible note at once and just ended up keeeping the good ones? And, even more importantly, folks like Epstein, George Martin, Billy Preston and a plethora of sidemen and session musicians made the songs you know and love possible. But of course, we all know that George Martin arranged strings by trial and error, which made the EMI bosses very happy...
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
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| Date | 2026-10-19 12:03 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b4tdn$1vgjd$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94305 |
On 19/10/2026 10:36, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote: > Do you think they wrote songs by trying every possible note at once and > just ended up keeeping the good ones? Largely yes, as videos of some of their studio sessions reveal. -- "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"
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| From | Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 12:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b531u$1tnv4$10@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94316 |
On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 12:03:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 19/10/2026 10:36, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote: >> Do you think they wrote songs by trying every possible note at once and >> just ended up keeeping the good ones? > > Largely yes, as videos of some of their studio sessions reveal. I understand you're saying the Beatles had no musical ability whatsoever, and that only their and their producer's patient willingness to pick the good bits out of an endless sea of random noises resulted in publishable material, which was made economically viable by the sheer budget EMI had for its pop acts, which we'll likely see again. That's a bit harsh, but consistent with the idea that a thorough musical training is required for a professional in the field of music, even if only to reliably churn out a few humble pop songs or jingles a day. But then again, who the hell cares about pop music after the age of 16...
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <YpxAS.37511$1l6.6761@fx42.iad> |
| In reply to | #93922 |
On 2026-10-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > On 16/10/2026 20:01, Tapiro Ubriaco wrote: > >> Any working musician needs to do the following on a daily basis: >> >> - Sight read or memorize an unfamiliar piece in an unfamiliar style > > Wrong. Many working rock or jazz musicians cannot sight read. That's why he said "or memorize". As the old joke goes: Q: How do you stop a classical musician from playing? A: Take away his sheet music. Q: How do you stop a bluegrasser from playing? A: Put sheet music in front of him. I play both classical and bluegrass (although not professionally); I have the best of both worlds. >> - Transpose on the fly (say, because the singer is having a rough time >> with the original key) > > That isnt exatly hard That depends on the key, and whether your instrument can accept a capo. Some female vocalists pick the damnedest keys, which is why I describe B (which is a bit of a bitch to play in) as the "vocalist's key". Use your capo if you have one, suck it up if you don't. >> Now imagine if Marty were thrown in the continuo section for a performance >> of Bach's Christmas Oratorio. > > That is a completely different and dare I say it archaic, music form > > They used orchestras because electric amplification did not exist. There > was a necessity to manage large numbers of plates Yes, but some people still play it. A working _classical_ musician knows how. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
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| Date | 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njg9glFit4rU33@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #93942 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 22:19:36 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > That depends on the key, and whether your instrument can accept a capo. > Some female vocalists pick the damnedest keys, which is why I describe B > (which is a bit of a bitch to play in) as the "vocalist's key". > Use your capo if you have one, suck it up if you don't. I play, among other things, Irish flutes/whistles. The standard D simple- system flutes have both C and C# so you can play in D or G. If you want B you'd better scare up a new flute. There is a duet by Willie Nelson and Johnny Cash. Cash asks what key they're going to play in and Nelson names some weird key like B flat major. Cash mutters 'That figures.' For better or worse I can't sing and I don't play with groups so it's all the same to me. I've got a capo but no reason to use it.
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