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Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them

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  Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-27 10:21 +0000
    Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:56 -0700
      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Farley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux> - 2025-04-28 15:45 +0000
      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 13:27 -0400
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 17:58 +0000
          Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 15:46 -0400
            Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 01:13 +0000
              Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:29 +0000
                Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 17:48 +0000
      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 19:50 +0000
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 16:44 -0400
          Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 01:33 +0000
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 01:16 +0000
    Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:12 -0700
      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-28 18:56 +0000
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:31 -0700
          Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-28 20:03 +0000
            Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2025-04-29 01:30 +0000
              Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 04:13 +0000
                Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Farley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux> - 2025-04-29 10:00 +0000
            Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 09:23 -0700
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-04-29 10:18 +0200
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:18 +0000
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Andreas Dehmel <blackhole.8.zarquon42@spamgourmet.com> - 2025-04-29 20:11 +0200
          Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-29 19:04 +0000
            Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Andreas Dehmel <blackhole.8.zarquon42@spamgourmet.com> - 2025-04-30 21:09 +0200
              Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-05-02 20:14 +0000
                Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:59 +0000
                  Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-03 08:09 -0400
                    Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-03 13:52 +0100
                      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-03 22:54 +0000
                      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-05-09 21:25 +0000
                        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-05-09 17:53 -0400
                      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-10 09:38 +0100
                        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-10 09:49 +0100
                          Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-10 11:06 +0100
                            Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-05-10 11:20 +0000
                    Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-05-03 16:48 +0200
      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:43 +0000
        Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-04-29 19:10 +0000
    Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Gates Loves Them (was: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them) Tyrone <none@none.none> - 2025-04-29 21:18 +0000
      Re: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Gates Loves Them (was: Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them) Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-30 08:50 +0000

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#689543 — Case Insensitive File Systems -- Torvalds Hates Them

We all should hate case insensitive file systems.  I certainly do.

But what do the masters think of them?  Here is Torvalds:

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linus-Torvalds-Anti-Case-Fold

There are times when I am downloading several web pages on the
same subject and I don't have the inclination to give each saved
page a unique and distinctive name.  I will instead do this:

Subject.html
subject.html
SUbject.html
SuBjEcT.html

etc.

A trivial purpose but it can be important.



-- 
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

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#689604

On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000
Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:

> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.

Why?

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#689605

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 07:56:02 -0700, John Ames wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000
> Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
> 
>> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.
> 
> Why?
>

For the same reason that we reject a phonetic based filesystem
wherein all the following names would be identical:

Philedelphia

Filledelphia

Filledelfia

Filledelfeeya


Or how about:

Psychiatric

Scikeeatric

Sykeeatric


Unfortunately I can't enter Unicode chars to form many more
equivalants.



-- 
Hail Linux!  Hail FOSS!  Hail Stallman!

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#689609

On 4/28/25 10:56, John Ames wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000
> Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
> 
>> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.
> 
> Why?

I imagine that his argument will be something along the lines of "it's 
fascism for my system not to be able to differentiate between Green the 
surname and green the colour." I actually agree that if I name a file 
green.odt, it should be obvious that it is the text I wrote about how 
much I love the colour and not the text I wrote about the Green family. 
However, most people are not that bright and would prefer case 
insensitivity because they would prefer to name a document 
greencolour.odt or greenfamily.odt.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
LibreOffice supporter
John 14:6

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#689610

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 13:27:32 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> On 4/28/25 10:56, John Ames wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000 Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>> 
>>> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.
>> 
>> Why?
> 
> I imagine that his argument will be something along the lines of "it's
> fascism for my system not to be able to differentiate between Green the
> surname and green the colour." I actually agree that if I name a file
> green.odt, it should be obvious that it is the text I wrote about how
> much I love the colour and not the text I wrote about the Green family.
> However, most people are not that bright and would prefer case
> insensitivity because they would prefer to name a document
> greencolour.odt or greenfamily.odt.

Otoh is you're dealing with a database you very seldom care if the field 
is 'Green Eggs', 'green eggs', GREEN EGGS', or 'Green eggs'. However with 
a case sensitive database like DB2 you have to use UCASE or LOWER, 
relatively expensive operations at run time, or make sure all data is 
entered in lower or upper case.

Ironically, DB2 is case insensitive for table and column names.

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#689619

On 2025-04-28 13:58, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 13:27:32 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> On 4/28/25 10:56, John Ames wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000 Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> I imagine that his argument will be something along the lines of "it's
>> fascism for my system not to be able to differentiate between Green the
>> surname and green the colour." I actually agree that if I name a file
>> green.odt, it should be obvious that it is the text I wrote about how
>> much I love the colour and not the text I wrote about the Green family.
>> However, most people are not that bright and would prefer case
>> insensitivity because they would prefer to name a document
>> greencolour.odt or greenfamily.odt.
> 
> Otoh is you're dealing with a database you very seldom care if the field
> is 'Green Eggs', 'green eggs', GREEN EGGS', or 'Green eggs'. However with
> a case sensitive database like DB2 you have to use UCASE or LOWER,
> relatively expensive operations at run time, or make sure all data is
> entered in lower or upper case.
> 
> Ironically, DB2 is case insensitive for table and column names.

The biggest issue I envision anyone having with case sensitivity is not 
remembering what they saved a certain file as. However, if you know that 
the document deals with green eggs, searching for it despite not 
remembering the document filename should be trivial.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
LibreOffice supporter
John 14:6

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#689639

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 15:46:56 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> The biggest issue I envision anyone having with case sensitivity is not
> remembering what they saved a certain file as. However, if you know that
> the document deals with green eggs, searching for it despite not
> remembering the document filename should be trivial.

I was talking about databases. In DB2 

'SELECT author FROM books WHERE title LIKE 'green eggs%' 

is only going to match 'green eggs' exactly. If you're not sure how the 
record was stored you would need LOWER(title). 

The equivalent directory search would be something like

find . -name "*.txt" | xargs grep -i "green eggs"

The difference is the directory search is probably going to be a one-shot. 
The SQL statement may be executed thousands of times and LOWER() is 
costly. 

I'm curious how SQL Server or Access handles case insensitivity in the 
internals. However it's done it's faster than explicit conversions at 
runtime. 

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#689740

On 2025-04-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 15:46:56 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> The biggest issue I envision anyone having with case sensitivity is not
>> remembering what they saved a certain file as. However, if you know that
>> the document deals with green eggs, searching for it despite not
>> remembering the document filename should be trivial.
>
> I was talking about databases. In DB2 
>
> 'SELECT author FROM books WHERE title LIKE 'green eggs%' 
>
> is only going to match 'green eggs' exactly. If you're not sure how the 
> record was stored you would need LOWER(title). 
>
> The equivalent directory search would be something like
>
> find . -name "*.txt" | xargs grep -i "green eggs"
>
> The difference is the directory search is probably going to be a one-shot. 
> The SQL statement may be executed thousands of times and LOWER() is 
> costly. 
>
> I'm curious how SQL Server or Access handles case insensitivity in the 
> internals. However it's done it's faster than explicit conversions at 
> runtime. 

Why not just use the -iname option for find?  Its the same as -name, but
not case sensitive.

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#689762

On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> On 2025-04-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 15:46:56 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> The biggest issue I envision anyone having with case sensitivity is
>>> not remembering what they saved a certain file as. However, if you
>>> know that the document deals with green eggs, searching for it despite
>>> not remembering the document filename should be trivial.
>>
>> I was talking about databases. In DB2
>>
>> 'SELECT author FROM books WHERE title LIKE 'green eggs%'
>>
>> is only going to match 'green eggs' exactly. If you're not sure how the
>> record was stored you would need LOWER(title).
>>
>> The equivalent directory search would be something like
>>
>> find . -name "*.txt" | xargs grep -i "green eggs"
>>
>> The difference is the directory search is probably going to be a
>> one-shot.
>> The SQL statement may be executed thousands of times and LOWER() is
>> costly.
>>
>> I'm curious how SQL Server or Access handles case insensitivity in the
>> internals. However it's done it's faster than explicit conversions at
>> runtime.
> 
> Why not just use the -iname option for find?  Its the same as -name, but
> not case sensitive.

In the example I'm not worried about finding .TXT, etc. A more realistic 
example would be  'find . -name "*.cpp"'  at least on my machines where I 
would never have 'foo.CPP',  'foo.PY', and so forth.

After find locates foo.cpp, bar.cpp, and baz.cpp, xargs passes the file 
name to grep.  More likely the search string would be something like 
"*landmark*". 

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#689620

On 2025-04-28, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000
> Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>
>> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.
>
> Why?

Because they're so insensitive. :)

Personally I like the fact that File.txt, file.txt and file.TXT are all 
different files. It's useful for backing up files.

-- 
Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin
with them. Know the difference.

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#689629

On 2025-04-28 15:50, RonB wrote:
> On 2025-04-28, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000
>> Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>
>>> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.
>>
>> Why?
> 
> Because they're so insensitive. :)
> 
> Personally I like the fact that File.txt, file.txt and file.TXT are all
> different files. It's useful for backing up files.

Admittedly, I'm liking it too. I haven't yet built up a list of 
similarly written documents to have fun with it (and confuse others), 
but I do believe that it is a much more logical way of doing things than 
case insensitivity. I mean, just by looking at it, we know that "The 
Trials and Tribulations of Peppa Pig" is probably a title of something 
whereas "the trials and tribulations of Peppa Pig" probably isn't; why 
wouldn't our filesystem be as smart as we are?

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
LibreOffice supporter
John 14:6

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#689643

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 16:44:43 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> I mean, just by looking at it, we know that "The Trials and Tribulations
> of Peppa Pig" is probably a title of something whereas "the trials and
> tribulations of Peppa Pig" probably isn't; why wouldn't our filesystem
> be as smart as we are?

Unless you're German...   Title capitalization in English is a Charlie 
Foxtrot. Or is that charlie foxtrot?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_case

English is a prime example of cultural diversity. 

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#689640

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 19:50:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> On 2025-04-28, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 10:21:55 +0000 Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>
>>> We all should hate case insensitive file systems.
>>
>> Why?
> 
> Because they're so insensitive. :)
> 
> Personally I like the fact that File.txt, file.txt and file.TXT are all
> different files. It's useful for backing up files.

It's been a while but iirc you can have File.txt and file.txt in the same 
Windows directory through a unfortunate chain of events and it's a PITA to 
straighten the mess out.

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#689612

On 28 Apr 2025 17:49:48 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> although that might be an argument for case insensitivity.

Just so, it seems to me. Of course it's many years too late for *nix to
course-correct on this, but it was a stupid design decision in 1970 and
it remains stupid now. Well, such is the nature of things in this vale
of sin and tears...

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#689616

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:12:42 -0700, John Ames wrote:

> 
> Just so, it seems to me. Of course it's many years too late for *nix to
> course-correct on this, but it was a stupid design decision in 1970 and
> it remains stupid now. Well, such is the nature of things in this vale
> of sin and tears...
>

Case insensitivity was only idiotic at the beginning, but now, in the
age of Unicode, it is supremely idiotic.

Consider the German "sharp s," which I cannot enter as UTF-8 here.

But the lower case sharp s maps into TWO DIFFERENT upper case chars:
<can't enter> and "SS," e.g. STRASSE or <can't enter>.

There are special rules on case folding for thousands of Unicode chars
and the "sharp s" example is one of the simplest.

What about the files:

cat_scan_links.html

CAT_scan_links.html

To paraphrase Kipling:

Unix is Unix and Microslop is Microslop and never the twain should
meet.





-- 
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

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#689617

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 18:56:18 +0000
Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:

> What about the files:
> 
> cat_scan_links.html
> 
> CAT_scan_links.html

What *about* them? Your first example made more of a case that the
problem can be complex;* this one is eminently straightforward.

* (Although it still does not seem prohibitively so.)

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#689624

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:31:06 -0700, John Ames wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 18:56:18 +0000
> Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
> 
>> What about the files:
>> 
>> cat_scan_links.html
>> 
>> CAT_scan_links.html
> 
> What *about* them? Your first example made more of a case that the
> problem can be complex;* this one is eminently straightforward.
> 
> * (Although it still does not seem prohibitively so.)

I'll give you a hint.

"CAT" is an acronym for "Computed Axial Tomography."

"cat" is the useless animal that gives comfort to sterile women.


-- 
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

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#689642

In comp.os.linux.misc Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:31:06 -0700, John Ames wrote:

> > On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 18:56:18 +0000
> > Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
> > 
> >> What about the files:
> >> 
> >> cat_scan_links.html
> >> 
> >> CAT_scan_links.html
> > 
> > What *about* them? Your first example made more of a case that the
> > problem can be complex;* this one is eminently straightforward.
> > 
> > * (Although it still does not seem prohibitively so.)

> I'll give you a hint.

> "CAT" is an acronym for "Computed Axial Tomography."

> "cat" is the useless animal that gives comfort to sterile women.

Hey, you forgot men. /s :P
-- 
"But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don?t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it." --James 1:25. BUSY cold, dark, wet, etc. winter weekend w. 2 many spams & medias.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
  /\___/\   Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
 / /\ /\ \                      Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o   o| |
   \ _ /
    ( )

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#689659

On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 01:30:27 -0000 (UTC), Ant wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:31:06 -0700, John Ames wrote:
> 
>> > On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 18:56:18 +0000 Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks>
>> > wrote:
>> > 
>> >> What about the files:
>> >> 
>> >> cat_scan_links.html
>> >> 
>> >> CAT_scan_links.html
>> > 
>> > What *about* them? Your first example made more of a case that the
>> > problem can be complex;* this one is eminently straightforward.
>> > 
>> > * (Although it still does not seem prohibitively so.)
> 
>> I'll give you a hint.
> 
>> "CAT" is an acronym for "Computed Axial Tomography."
> 
>> "cat" is the useless animal that gives comfort to sterile women.
> 
> Hey, you forgot men. /s :P

https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/16/g-s1-60488/ct-
scan-cancer-risk-ionizing-radiation

afaik cats aren't linked to cancer although the one scratching at the door 
trying to get in might get her furry little ass kicked off the deck if she 
don't knock it off.

Cats are not useless if you have a pasture full of field mice in the 
backyard.

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#689665

On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 04:13:34 +0000, rbowman wrote:

> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/16/g-s1-60488/ct-
> scan-cancer-risk-ionizing-radiation
> 
> afaik cats aren't linked to cancer although the one scratching at the door 
> trying to get in might get her furry little ass kicked off the deck if she 
> don't knock it off.
> 
> Cats are not useless if you have a pasture full of field mice in the 
> backyard.
>

Cats are definitely linked to toxoplasmosis which is an insidious
disease.




-- 
Hail Linux!  Hail FOSS!  Hail Stallman!

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