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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #352156 > unrolled thread

P-E-E claims are pure kaka!

Started bysbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net>
First post2016-04-27 08:54 -0300
Last post2016-04-30 07:35 -0300
Articles 20 on this page of 380 — 20 participants

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Contents

  P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-27 08:54 -0300
    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-27 13:13 +0100
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 21:41 +0000
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 09:35 +0100
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 08:46 +0000
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-28 10:07 +0100
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 11:09 +0100
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:16 -0700
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-28 08:38 -0300
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 12:55 +0100
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:16 -0700
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-29 08:23 -0300
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:36 -0700
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 10:47 -0700
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-30 08:05 -0300
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 10:28 -0400
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 15:59 +0000
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 17:05 +0100
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 10:45 -0700
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-28 09:14 -0700
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 10:43 -0700
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 11:06 -0700
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 17:43 -0400
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 15:12 -0700
                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 15:20 -0700
                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-29 00:54 +0000
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 18:14 -0700
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 20:31 -0700
                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-29 04:13 +0000
                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 21:46 -0700
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-29 04:58 +0000
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 22:12 -0700
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 22:23 -0700
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-29 09:19 +0200
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 08:29 -0700
                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-29 17:30 +0000
                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:41 -0700
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 14:00 -0700
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 08:21 -0700
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 22:13 -0400
                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 12:48 -0700
                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 12:58 -0700
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 13:29 -0700
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-29 16:57 -0400
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 14:31 -0700
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 13:49 -0700
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 14:05 -0700
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 00:25 +0000
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 15:17 -0700
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-29 09:36 +0100
                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-29 13:44 -0400
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:15 -0700
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 15:57 +0000
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 17:06 +0100
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 09:22 -0700
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 10:38 -0700
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 10:46 -0700
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 11:14 -0700
                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 12:57 -0700
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 18:24 +0000
                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 12:05 -0700
                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 12:08 -0700
                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 12:15 -0700
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 12:43 -0700
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-28 22:30 +0200
                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 13:37 -0700
                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 13:46 -0700
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 12:59 -0700
                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 16:49 -0700
                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 16:57 -0700
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 18:00 -0700
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 18:26 -0700
                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 18:47 -0700
                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 19:27 -0700
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-29 03:32 -0700
                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 09:21 -0700
                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-04-29 10:59 -0700
                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 07:36 -0500
                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-05-02 07:24 -0700
                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 16:38 +0200
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-05-02 07:50 -0700
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 17:43 +0200
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 18:56 +0200
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 10:41 -0700
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 20:32 +0200
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 10:13 -0500
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 08:50 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-05-02 16:06 +0000
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 10:16 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-05-02 18:03 +0000
                                                          Re: UnPaid software testers. -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 16:46 -0700
                                                            Re: UnPaid software testers. owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-05-02 23:53 +0000
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 17:36 +0000
                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 07:36 -0700
                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 16:41 +0200
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 10:03 -0500
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-05-02 08:13 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 10:40 -0700
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 20:27 +0200
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 13:43 -0500
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 20:56 +0200
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 11:56 -0700
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 12:40 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-02 15:45 -0400
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 13:09 -0700
                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-02 21:58 -0400
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 20:33 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-02 23:58 -0400
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-05-03 09:00 -0300
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 13:48 -0700
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 20:05 -0700
                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 21:18 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-05-03 06:42 +0200
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-05-03 06:59 +0200
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 22:27 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 22:23 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 08:17 -0700
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:32 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 10:13 -0700
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 11:52 -0700
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 13:31 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 08:28 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 08:45 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 13:30 -0700
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 17:48 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 13:43 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 14:31 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-04 07:01 -0500
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-03 09:29 -0400
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-03 06:53 -0500
                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 16:20 +0000
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:56 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 17:49 +0000
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 11:56 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-03 21:05 +0200
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 12:48 -0700
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 19:51 +0000
                                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 13:34 -0700
                                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-05-04 08:38 -0300
                                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-04 13:53 +0200
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 13:35 -0700
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-03 21:53 +0200
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-03 22:07 +0200
                                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-03 22:49 +0200
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-05-04 08:45 -0300
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 09:03 -0700
                                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-04 17:08 +0000
                                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 11:07 -0700
                                                                              Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-04 14:10 -0400
                                                                                Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 11:23 -0700
                                                                                  Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 tmelmosfire <tmelmosfire@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 13:29 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-05-04 20:45 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 14:26 -0700
                                                                                Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-04 22:14 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 15:39 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Snit digest 218 / 2016-05-04 meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-04 22:58 +0000
                                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 10:16 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 12:49 -0700
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 19:51 +0000
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-04 06:50 -0500
                                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-04 12:20 +0000
                                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-04 07:38 -0500
                                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-04 13:03 +0000
                                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-04 22:32 +0000
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 18:21 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! tmelmosfire <tmelmosfire@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 18:36 -0700
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 20:01 -0700
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-05-04 08:57 -0300
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 11:35 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 00:48 +0000
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kafka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 20:03 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kafka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-04 07:20 -0500
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kafka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-05 09:18 -0400
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-03 07:49 -0500
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-02 13:28 -0400
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 17:39 +0000
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 10:50 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 11:38 -0700
                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-05-02 07:58 -0700
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 10:42 -0700
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 13:03 -0500
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-02 21:20 +0000
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 18:14 +0000
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 11:56 -0700
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 19:07 +0000
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 12:49 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 00:29 +0000
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 11:53 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 12:47 -0700
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 15:06 -0500
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 13:50 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 19:01 -0700
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-02 22:06 -0400
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 00:21 +0000
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-03 01:18 +0000
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-02 21:54 -0400
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 20:15 -0700
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-02 23:59 -0400
                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 10:12 -0700
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 10:23 -0700
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 10:54 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 11:41 -0700
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 11:51 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2016-05-02 13:24 -0700
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 11:56 -0700
                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 17:31 +0000
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-28 23:33 +0100
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 01:26 +0000
                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 18:49 -0700
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-28 23:30 +0100
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 10:45 -0700
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 10:46 -0700
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 23:49 +0000
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 11:01 +0100
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-28 23:52 +0000
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-28 06:37 -0500
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 12:57 +0100
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:14 -0700
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 10:19 -0400
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 09:18 -0700
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 12:39 -0400
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 16:57 -0700
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-29 08:27 -0300
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-29 12:24 -0400
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-29 18:59 +0200
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-29 19:25 -0400
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-29 19:53 -0400
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-30 09:46 +0200
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 10:38 -0700
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-30 13:44 -0400
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 09:31 -0500
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 16:35 +0200
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-05-02 07:57 -0700
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-28 08:19 -0300
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 06:56 -0700
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-28 10:26 -0400
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-29 08:28 -0300
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 13:39 +0000
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-29 15:49 +0100
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 17:08 +0100
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 10:44 -0700
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:08 -0700
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-28 08:12 -0300
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-28 06:50 -0500
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 13:00 +0100
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 06:49 -0700
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:02 -0700
    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-27 20:20 +0000
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-27 23:51 +0000
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:09 -0700
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-29 08:35 -0300
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:34 -0700
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-30 07:34 -0300
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-28 21:26 +0000
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 15:08 -0700
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-29 00:18 +0200
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 15:28 -0700
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 01:34 +0000
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-04-29 01:42 +0000
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-29 11:05 +0000
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 18:50 -0700
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 19:34 -0700
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 19:42 -0700
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 20:20 -0700
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 20:58 -0700
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 21:42 -0700
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 09:16 -0700
                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:22 -0700
                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 11:53 -0700
                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 12:50 -0700
                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 00:30 +0000
                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-30 10:49 -0300
                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-30 08:02 -0700
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-04-30 15:20 +0000
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 10:12 -0700
                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 23:44 +0000
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-01 16:18 -0400
                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 07:26 -0500
                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-05-02 07:25 -0700
                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 10:05 -0700
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 10:25 -0700
                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 11:43 -0700
                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-02 20:52 +0200
                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-02 21:41 +0000
                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 19:11 +0000
                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 12:57 -0700
                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 12:51 -0700
                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 00:26 +0000
                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-03 01:22 +0000
                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 18:58 -0700
                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 19:00 -0700
                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 20:23 -0700
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 21:23 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 22:32 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-02 22:34 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-03 09:30 -0400
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 06:40 -0700
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-03 15:47 +0200
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-03 11:11 -0500
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-05 09:28 -0400
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:14 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-03 12:27 -0400
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 16:29 +0000
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:15 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 16:32 +0000
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 05:33 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:07 -0700
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-03 12:42 +0000
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-05-03 14:49 +0200
                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 06:29 -0700
                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:09 -0700
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! meat <meat.stretcher@linuxmail.org> - 2016-05-03 16:13 +0000
                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:52 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 10:18 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 17:41 +0000
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 11:44 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 18:58 +0000
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 12:45 -0700
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 19:47 +0000
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-05-03 21:51 +0200
                                                                          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 14:22 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 12:43 -0700
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 14:21 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 11:42 -0700
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 12:28 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 12:40 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 13:30 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 17:39 +0000
                                                            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 10:08 -0700
                                                              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 10:21 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 10:50 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-04 10:38 -0400
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 07:45 -0700
                                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 11:49 -0700
                                                                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 13:00 -0700
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 13:28 -0700
                                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 14:24 -0700
                                                                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:00 -0700
                                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 14:26 -0700
                                                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 08:52 -0700
                                                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-05-03 09:48 -0700
                                                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-05-03 09:30 -0400
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 04:50 +0000
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 22:11 -0700
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 19:02 -0700
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-29 06:58 -0500
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-29 08:47 -0400
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 09:30 -0700
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-29 12:39 -0400
                  Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-29 09:50 -0700
                    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-29 19:18 -0400
                      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-02 07:22 -0500
                        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-05-02 07:26 -0700
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:59 -0700
                Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-29 19:15 -0400
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:56 -0700
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-29 10:27 -0400
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:04 -0700
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 08:25 -0700
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 08:40 -0700
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-28 09:01 -0700
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 09:27 -0700
    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-27 21:25 +0000
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-27 18:45 -0400
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-27 23:51 +0100
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-28 07:32 +0000
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-28 09:37 +0100
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:10 -0700
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 07:05 -0700
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-28 21:54 +0000
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 15:09 -0700
            Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-29 00:33 +0000
              Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 16:41 -0700
    Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-28 06:59 -0700
      Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-29 08:33 -0300
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-04-29 13:46 +0200
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:34 -0700
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-29 07:14 -0500
        Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-29 10:35 -0700
          Re: P-E-E claims are pure kaka! sbd <sbd.pambu@safe-mail.net> - 2016-04-30 07:35 -0300

Page 4 of 19 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 … 19  Next page →


#352517

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 12:05 -0700
Message-ID<D347AD25.71446%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352511
On 4/28/16, 11:24 AM, in article nftkg6$7ua$2@dont-email.me, "ronb"
<ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:46:37 -0700, Marek Novotny wrote:
> 
>> The topic is whatever I say it is. That's what arguments are for. You
>> don't get to set the tone and paint the scene you want because it makes
>> the outcome in your favor. I'm challenging the question itself.
> 
> "Snit" does that all the time. He's a control freak with pre-programmed
> questions and you're supposed to stay "on script." He complains loudly
> when you don't. He also moves the goalposts on a regular basis. You're
> going to find attempting to argue with "Snit" is a very tedious process -
> because he'll pretend to be engaging in the conversation and, at about 2
> weeks in, he'll reboot and start the whole "argument" from the original
> starting point. This is why most of us have him killfiled. He's a
> humorless crank and it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything with
> him. Check out what they think of him at the Mac newsgroup. Same deal as
> here. 

See: multiple insults and attacks without talking about Linux or technology.

You fear it.

Me: I welcome it.

-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352518

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-28 12:08 -0700
Message-ID<IYqdnQy1VIFewr_KnZ2dnUU7-LednZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#352511
On 2016-04-28, ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:46:37 -0700, Marek Novotny wrote:
>
>> The topic is whatever I say it is. That's what arguments are for. You
>> don't get to set the tone and paint the scene you want because it makes
>> the outcome in your favor. I'm challenging the question itself.
>
> "Snit" does that all the time. He's a control freak with pre-programmed 
> questions and you're supposed to stay "on script." He complains loudly 
> when you don't. He also moves the goalposts on a regular basis. You're 
> going to find attempting to argue with "Snit" is a very tedious process -
> because he'll pretend to be engaging in the conversation and, at about 2 
> weeks in, he'll reboot and start the whole "argument" from the original 
> starting point. This is why most of us have him killfiled. He's a 
> humorless crank and it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything with 
> him. Check out what they think of him at the Mac newsgroup. Same deal as 
> here. 

I've actually dealt with him before. He promotes this same none-sense
over and over again. He wants to talk about his little niche. And it
just doesn't matter at all. Not one teeny tiny bit. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352521

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 12:15 -0700
Message-ID<D347AF7A.7144D%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352518
On 4/28/16, 12:08 PM, in article
IYqdnQy1VIFewr_KnZ2dnUU7-LednZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> On 2016-04-28, ronb <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:46:37 -0700, Marek Novotny wrote:
>> 
>>> The topic is whatever I say it is. That's what arguments are for. You
>>> don't get to set the tone and paint the scene you want because it makes
>>> the outcome in your favor. I'm challenging the question itself.
>> 
>> "Snit" does that all the time. He's a control freak with pre-programmed
>> questions and you're supposed to stay "on script." He complains loudly
>> when you don't. He also moves the goalposts on a regular basis. You're
>> going to find attempting to argue with "Snit" is a very tedious process -
>> because he'll pretend to be engaging in the conversation and, at about 2
>> weeks in, he'll reboot and start the whole "argument" from the original
>> starting point. This is why most of us have him killfiled. He's a
>> humorless crank and it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything with
>> him. Check out what they think of him at the Mac newsgroup. Same deal as
>> here. 
> 
> I've actually dealt with him before. He promotes this same none-sense
> over and over again. He wants to talk about his little niche. And it
> just doesn't matter at all. Not one teeny tiny bit.

If you think my comments are nonsense then refute them. Just making insults
shows a lack of confidence in yourself and your views.

So stop focusing on insults... focus on technology. You think I am wrong
about desktop Linux and P-E-E? Great! Show some examples! Show places where
desktop Linux offers great advantages I am missing. I openly admit there
must be some (I do not claim to know everything!).

Meanwhile I am happy to show tasks I have worked on - some I suggested and
some I did not. 

THAT would be focusing on technology and not your own insecurity about your
support for desktop Linux. And I welcome it. Heck, I pretty much beg for
it... for you and others to focus on technology and not personal attacks.


-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352522

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-28 12:43 -0700
Message-ID<b7qdnSUp551N-r_KnZ2dnUU7-IHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#352521
On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> If you think my comments are nonsense then refute them. Just making insults
> shows a lack of confidence in yourself and your views.

I lack confidence in you is the problem. 

> So stop focusing on insults... focus on technology. You think I am wrong
> about desktop Linux and P-E-E? Great! Show some examples! Show places where
> desktop Linux offers great advantages I am missing. I openly admit there
> must be some (I do not claim to know everything!).

You ask the wrong questions. That's why I lack confidence in you. It
would be like saying Linux sucks because it can't pickup 100 lose
toothpicks scattered on the floor. It doesn't matter. 

> Meanwhile I am happy to show tasks I have worked on - some I suggested and
> some I did not. 

You're happy to pick up tooth picks from the floor. That's great, but I
don't care about tooth picks. 

> THAT would be focusing on technology and not your own insecurity about your
> support for desktop Linux. And I welcome it. Heck, I pretty much beg for
> it... for you and others to focus on technology and not personal attacks.

You must think everyone is a moron. Your tooth picks don't matter. Your
argument is misguided and stupid. Making PDFs out of recipes online will
not hurt nor hinder Linux adoption in any way. Nor will it sell or
promote the sale of the Mac. It is simply stupid to think your little
display matters in any meaningful way. 

I can assure you with absolute confidence that the next Linux Conference
I go to will not have one single booth dedicated to making PDFs out of
receipts on the web. Why? Because NO ONE GIVES A SHIT. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352525

FromMelzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com>
Date2016-04-28 22:30 +0200
Message-ID<20160428223042.577d2276@maxa-pc>
In reply to#352522
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:43:12 -0700
Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> 
> I can assure you with absolute confidence that the next Linux
> Conference I go to will not have one single booth dedicated to making
> PDFs out of receipts on the web. Why? Because NO ONE GIVES A SHIT. 
> 

Ahahahhahahaha. You nailed him! ;)))))

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352527

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 13:37 -0700
Message-ID<D347C2B1.7146B%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352525
On 4/28/16, 1:30 PM, in article 20160428223042.577d2276@maxa-pc, "Melzzzzz"
<mel@zzzzz.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:43:12 -0700
> Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I can assure you with absolute confidence that the next Linux
>> Conference I go to will not have one single booth dedicated to making
>> PDFs out of receipts on the web. Why? Because NO ONE GIVES A SHIT.
>> 
> 
> Ahahahhahahaha. You nailed him! ;)))))

But he is wrong. People DO care about being able to do such tasks.

People DO care about printing recipes and lesson plans and art projects and
more. 

People DO care about being able to edit these files.

People DO care about being able to share these files.

People DO care about being efficient and being able to do things easily.

In short: people DO care about productivity, efficiency, and
error-reduction.

Not that this is the only task that matters. That would be absurd. To use
this one task as a full benchmark of quality for a system would be insane.
Nobody suggests that we do so though.

It is amazing how Linux "advocates" rarely ever actually talk directly about
productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction on the desktop. I suspect they
actually know the truth: it is just not very competitive... but they will
never admit it.

Does this mean Linux as a whole sucks? NO!
Does this mean desktop Linux has no value? NO!
Does this mean nobody should use desktop Linux? NO!

What it means is desktop Linux has an a place where it does not compete well
- a significant place which makes desktop Linux as a whole not compete well
in the general desktop market. Even their, though, it has places where it
not only a great solution but, as I repeatedly speak of, it is
world-changing.


-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352528

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 13:46 -0700
Message-ID<D347C4D3.7146F%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352527
On 4/28/16, 1:37 PM, in article D347C2B1.7146B%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com,
"Snit" <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> On 4/28/16, 1:30 PM, in article 20160428223042.577d2276@maxa-pc, "Melzzzzz"
> <mel@zzzzz.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:43:12 -0700
>> Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> I can assure you with absolute confidence that the next Linux
>>> Conference I go to will not have one single booth dedicated to making
>>> PDFs out of receipts on the web. Why? Because NO ONE GIVES A SHIT.
>>> 
>> 
>> Ahahahhahahaha. You nailed him! ;)))))
> 
> But he is wrong. People DO care about being able to do such tasks.
> 
> People DO care about printing recipes and lesson plans and art projects and
> more. 
> 
> People DO care about being able to edit these files.
> 
> People DO care about being able to share these files.
> 
> People DO care about being efficient and being able to do things easily.
> 
> In short: people DO care about productivity, efficiency, and
> error-reduction.
> 
> Not that this is the only task that matters. That would be absurd. To use
> this one task as a full benchmark of quality for a system would be insane.
> Nobody suggests that we do so though.
> 
> It is amazing how Linux "advocates" rarely ever actually talk directly about
> productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction on the desktop. I suspect they
> actually know the truth: it is just not very competitive... but they will
> never admit it.
> 
> Does this mean Linux as a whole sucks? NO!
> Does this mean desktop Linux has no value? NO!
> Does this mean nobody should use desktop Linux? NO!
> 
> What it means is desktop Linux has an a place where it does not compete well
> - a significant place which makes desktop Linux as a whole not compete well
> in the general desktop market. Even their, though, it has places where it
> not only a great solution but, as I repeatedly speak of, it is
> world-changing.
> 
Um, even THERE though. Sorry grammar freaks. :)

Oh, and above when I talk about "People" I do not mean ALL people. So when
someone inevitably says "I do not care about printing PDFs" that does not
discount my comments at all.

Pick your own tasks. Things YOU do on the desktop. Things YOU appreciate
desktop Linux for. Things YOU can share and help educate people and, dare I
say it, actually ADVOCATE Linux well.

That would be great!


-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352526

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 12:59 -0700
Message-ID<D347B9B4.7145F%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352522
On 4/28/16, 12:43 PM, in article
b7qdnSUp551N-r_KnZ2dnUU7-IHNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> If you think my comments are nonsense then refute them. Just making insults
>> shows a lack of confidence in yourself and your views.
> 
> I lack confidence in you is the problem.

I am not the topic. Technology is. If you think desktop Linux promotes P-E-E
in a great way I would love to see it. No excuses. No claims that I or
someone else would not get it or whatever. No pointing fingers.

Just focus on technology without worrying about your own insecurities.

>> So stop focusing on insults... focus on technology. You think I am wrong
>> about desktop Linux and P-E-E? Great! Show some examples! Show places where
>> desktop Linux offers great advantages I am missing. I openly admit there
>> must be some (I do not claim to know everything!).
> 
> You ask the wrong questions. That's why I lack confidence in you. It
> would be like saying Linux sucks because it can't pickup 100 lose
> toothpicks scattered on the floor. It doesn't matter.

If you have no interest in productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction on
the desktop then that is fine... but it is absurd to say my looking at this
is "wrong".

>> Meanwhile I am happy to show tasks I have worked on - some I suggested and
>> some I did not. 
> 
> You're happy to pick up tooth picks from the floor. That's great, but I
> don't care about tooth picks.

I encourage you to pick topics YOU care about. But, again, if you do not
care about desktop productivity, or you agree desktop Linux tends to do
poorly here but have strengths elsewhere, then I do not even know what we
are disagreeing about. Maybe you can clarify that: what view of mine do you
disagree with (an actual view of mine, not a straw man or fabrication of my
views). 

>> THAT would be focusing on technology and not your own insecurity about your
>> support for desktop Linux. And I welcome it. Heck, I pretty much beg for
>> it... for you and others to focus on technology and not personal attacks.
> 
> You must think everyone is a moron.

Nope.

> Your tooth picks don't matter. Your argument is misguided and stupid. Making
> PDFs out of recipes online will not hurt nor hinder Linux adoption in any way.

That one task. Likely not. But look at the forest and not just that one
tree. And if you think I have missed tress then show them! I encourage it.

> Nor will it sell or promote the sale of the Mac. It is simply stupid to think
> your little display matters in any meaningful way.

The fact OS X allows for great productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction
is why, even at its higher prices, it does so well. People generally do not
even understand why it "feels" better but they know it does and they pay
more for it. And developers make lots of software for it.

> I can assure you with absolute confidence that the next Linux Conference I go
> to will not have one single booth dedicated to making PDFs out of receipts on
> the web. Why? Because NO ONE GIVES A SHIT.

If you do not care about THAT task then why are you focusing on it at all?
Just weird. There is a discussion on coding which seems cool but not in my
area of expertise or interest so I mostly ignore it. If you think there is a
place where desktop Linux shines with P-E-E then I would love to see it. If
P-E-E is just something you do not care much about that is fine, too.

But I *do* care about productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction... and
there is no problem with my focusing on it, even if you think asking about
which system promotes it best is the "wrong question."


-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352568

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-28 16:49 -0700
Message-ID<r4CdnRC41NYMPL_KnZ2dnUU7-SXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#352526
On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

// snip

> But I *do* care about productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction... and
> there is no problem with my focusing on it, even if you think asking about
> which system promotes it best is the "wrong question."

Great, so think about how many containers you can run vs. virtual
machines, because containers are less taxing on the system. That improves
productivity and efficiency. 

So, build a Mac at scale that an enterprise could use to host their
applications. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWBNoIwGEjo

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352570

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 16:57 -0700
Message-ID<D347F177.714B6%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352568
On 4/28/16, 4:49 PM, in article
r4CdnRC41NYMPL_KnZ2dnUU7-SXNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> 
> // snip
> 
>> But I *do* care about productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction... and
>> there is no problem with my focusing on it, even if you think asking about
>> which system promotes it best is the "wrong question."
> 
> Great, so think about how many containers you can run vs. virtual
> machines, because containers are less taxing on the system. That improves
> productivity and efficiency.
> 
> So, build a Mac at scale that an enterprise could use to host their
> applications. 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWBNoIwGEjo

You can use containers or VMs on any of the OSs. I personally use a VM
because it makes more sense for my use. For most people they will have no
need... and your video focuses on things other than the desktop.

You keep going to how great Linux is for servers as if someone is
disagreeing. Weird. Can I ask why?

-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352575

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-28 18:00 -0700
Message-ID<c62dnUoNMKO4L7_KnZ2dnUU7-XnNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#352570
On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> On 4/28/16, 4:49 PM, in article
> r4CdnRC41NYMPL_KnZ2dnUU7-SXNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
><marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> 
>> // snip
>> 
>>> But I *do* care about productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction... and
>>> there is no problem with my focusing on it, even if you think asking about
>>> which system promotes it best is the "wrong question."
>> 
>> Great, so think about how many containers you can run vs. virtual
>> machines, because containers are less taxing on the system. That improves
>> productivity and efficiency.
>> 
>> So, build a Mac at scale that an enterprise could use to host their
>> applications. 
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWBNoIwGEjo
>
> You can use containers or VMs on any of the OSs. I personally use a VM
> because it makes more sense for my use. For most people they will have no
> need... and your video focuses on things other than the desktop.

Nope. That whole demo was put together on a laptop. It was running on
the Linux One to show you the scale of the Linux One Main Frame. But
that whole demo was written and created on a laptop. 

So there is an excellent example of what is common on Linux. For
example, Canonical setup 10 Intel NUCs, you know those really tiny lost
cost computers? Anyway, they stuck 10 of them in a big orange box with a
switch and use it to demo OpenStack. They leave it with clients and
client get to play with the box such that once they understand the
mechanics of Open Stack they can now think about OpenStack at larger
scales. 

This all starts on someone's desktop or laptop. There is a new push to
make containers on laptops with an application front end to make as easy
as you find making VMs. Mostly because you're guided to make that VM. So
it feels like a desktop application but you get the benefit of more than
your Mac. Well, imagine that same ease of use with containers. It is
estimated a simple 2-core mid range laptop could easily become many
containers that feel like VMs, but they're not. 

So we have two examples going on here. We have something that is meant
to be very large scale running on some little box with 10 NUCs as a real
world small cloud. And in the other example we have something like a
container being used to improve efficiency on something as small a
mid-range dual core laptop. 

The back end technologies are the same in both cases. We're just making
them more available and easier to learn and deploy. That's two examples
of Linux doing great things, both big and small. 

But you're not seeing that development take place on the Mac. Apple's
more interested in selling you some more cute features on top of
whatever they delivered last year. That's their business model. We don't
do that. We develop real core advances that evolve into highly efficient
open source products that anyone can use and enjoy. We're not milking
you like Apple is or like Adobe is. We're giving it all away.

Desktop Linux is used by the Linux developer. Those people who make what
they themselves want to use. Think about for the second. We're not
making something we hope you'll buy. We're not making some people to
make your life easier. You're not a customer. We're making the system we
want to use. 

Here is something I thought about just for Snit, and I am being quite
serious and I think you should seriously consider what I am about to
write. 

You are already a tech and you have said, correct me if I am wrong, that
you have a masters in IT. Now, you might not have practiced real
corporate IT systems for years and gone rusty or maybe you're sharper
than you were when you completed your masters. I don't know. What I
think though is that you could take some of this open source, like
pfSense, and you can build or buy and then resell a FireWall to your
existing clients or use it to create a whole new client base. 

Your area doesn't look like a hoping place for IT like my area is. But
even if it isn't, I'd be willing to bet there are hotels, small
businesses and even regular people that would like a good firewall.
right now in the news we hear about so many hacks. Now is a good time
for some enterprising person, HINT: that's maybe you. To learn something
like pfSense. You could charge $500 for the device, another $250 to set
it up and maybe $500 a year to update it and visit them say 4 times a
year to check up on it and see how they are doing. Add whatever needs to
be added for the ongoing subscription service. 

You would not owe anyone a license fee. The customer would have a top
notch FireWall and peace of mind. Each customer you gain for a FireWall
might ask you about other things you can offer them. Maybe you decide to
offer them a nice NAS box. Again, no license to pay for. Free and open.
You charge for the box, install and on going maintenance. 

Now, if you chose to do that, would it not be wise to use Linux and
FreeBSD daily to become so familiar with it that you could help them any
of their open source needs? The fact that is open source they might not
even understand or care about. But for you... We'll you'd have a couple
products that you build, manage and sell. You would not have to worry
about an APPLE that changes its mind and pulls hardware you needed for
its feature set and price point. You make the whole widget. 

Now that is a real opportunity. All it would require is adding some text
to your website. It would broaden your appeal from the customer point of
view. And it could lead better, larger and more profitable business. 

A lot of like the Linux desktop simple because we like all the other
things Linux can do as well. And so we stick with it all the time. We
make it what we know. We shape it into the tool we want.

Seriously give it some thought. 


> You keep going to how great Linux is for servers as if someone is
> disagreeing. Weird. Can I ask why?
>


-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352577

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 18:26 -0700
Message-ID<D3480638.714CD%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352575
On 4/28/16, 6:00 PM, in article
c62dnUoNMKO4L7_KnZ2dnUU7-XnNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> On 4/28/16, 4:49 PM, in article
>> r4CdnRC41NYMPL_KnZ2dnUU7-SXNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
>> <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2016-04-28, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> // snip
>>> 
>>>> But I *do* care about productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction... and
>>>> there is no problem with my focusing on it, even if you think asking about
>>>> which system promotes it best is the "wrong question."
>>> 
>>> Great, so think about how many containers you can run vs. virtual
>>> machines, because containers are less taxing on the system. That improves
>>> productivity and efficiency.
>>> 
>>> So, build a Mac at scale that an enterprise could use to host their
>>> applications. 
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWBNoIwGEjo
>> 
>> You can use containers or VMs on any of the OSs. I personally use a VM
>> because it makes more sense for my use. For most people they will have no
>> need... and your video focuses on things other than the desktop.
> 
> Nope. That whole demo was put together on a laptop. It was running on
> the Linux One to show you the scale of the Linux One Main Frame. But
> that whole demo was written and created on a laptop.

Oh, you meant the presentation and not the actual topic? I admit I did not
watch the whole 18 minutes of the demo. What point are you trying to make?

> So there is an excellent example of what is common on Linux. For
> example, Canonical setup 10 Intel NUCs, you know those really tiny lost
> cost computers? Anyway, they stuck 10 of them in a big orange box with a
> switch and use it to demo OpenStack. They leave it with clients and
> client get to play with the box such that once they understand the
> mechanics of Open Stack they can now think about OpenStack at larger
> scales. 

Not in contention: Linux is a good solution for this. Yup.

> This all starts on someone's desktop or laptop. There is a new push to
> make containers on laptops with an application front end to make as easy
> as you find making VMs. Mostly because you're guided to make that VM. So
> it feels like a desktop application but you get the benefit of more than
> your Mac. Well, imagine that same ease of use with containers. It is
> estimated a simple 2-core mid range laptop could easily become many
> containers that feel like VMs, but they're not.

You can use containers on Macs and Windows... but I admit I know little of
them... so feel free to educate me if you wish.

> So we have two examples going on here. We have something that is meant
> to be very large scale running on some little box with 10 NUCs as a real
> world small cloud. And in the other example we have something like a
> container being used to improve efficiency on something as small a
> mid-range dual core laptop.
> 
> The back end technologies are the same in both cases. We're just making
> them more available and easier to learn and deploy. That's two examples
> of Linux doing great things, both big and small.
>
> But you're not seeing that development take place on the Mac. Apple's
> more interested in selling you some more cute features on top of
> whatever they delivered last year. That's their business model. We don't
> do that. We develop real core advances that evolve into highly efficient
> open source products that anyone can use and enjoy. We're not milking
> you like Apple is or like Adobe is. We're giving it all away.

Milking? Apple offers me a tool that does more for less cost than any other
platform. How is that "milking"?

> Desktop Linux is used by the Linux developer.

Right. It is not really focused on the end user.

> Those people who make what they themselves want to use. Think about for the
> second. We're not making something we hope you'll buy. We're not making some
> people to make your life easier. You're not a customer. We're making the
> system we want to use.

So if the system is not made for people to actually use then it is no
surprise that it does not compete well for how people use computers!

> Here is something I thought about just for Snit, and I am being quite
> serious and I think you should seriously consider what I am about to
> write. 
> 
> You are already a tech and you have said, correct me if I am wrong, that
> you have a masters in IT. Now, you might not have practiced real
> corporate IT systems for years and gone rusty or maybe you're sharper
> than you were when you completed your masters. I don't know. What I
> think though is that you could take some of this open source, like
> pfSense, and you can build or buy and then resell a FireWall to your
> existing clients or use it to create a whole new client base.
> 
> Your area doesn't look like a hoping place for IT like my area is. But
> even if it isn't, I'd be willing to bet there are hotels, small
> businesses and even regular people that would like a good firewall.
> right now in the news we hear about so many hacks. Now is a good time
> for some enterprising person, HINT: that's maybe you. To learn something
> like pfSense. You could charge $500 for the device, another $250 to set
> it up and maybe $500 a year to update it and visit them say 4 times a
> year to check up on it and see how they are doing. Add whatever needs to
> be added for the ongoing subscription service.

This is a fine business model: but it has gone completely away from the
topic of desktop productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction. Do not get
me wrong, I am fine with you changing the topic - you were quite clear on
it, but I have also been quite clear that the desktop is my main focus.

> You would not owe anyone a license fee. The customer would have a top
> notch FireWall and peace of mind. Each customer you gain for a FireWall
> might ask you about other things you can offer them. Maybe you decide to
> offer them a nice NAS box. Again, no license to pay for. Free and open.
> You charge for the box, install and on going maintenance.

I am very familiar with the concept of open source and the lack of license
fees.

> Now, if you chose to do that, would it not be wise to use Linux and
> FreeBSD daily to become so familiar with it that you could help them any
> of their open source needs? The fact that is open source they might not
> even understand or care about. But for you... We'll you'd have a couple
> products that you build, manage and sell. You would not have to worry
> about an APPLE that changes its mind and pulls hardware you needed for
> its feature set and price point. You make the whole widget.

I suggest OS X, Windows, and Linux to my customers and have a mix of those
in multiple places. I think you are under the impression that I just suggest
OS X. Or maybe OS X and Windows?

> Now that is a real opportunity. All it would require is adding some text
> to your website. It would broaden your appeal from the customer point of
> view. And it could lead better, larger and more profitable business.
> 
> A lot of like the Linux desktop simple because we like all the other
> things Linux can do as well. And so we stick with it all the time. We
> make it what we know. We shape it into the tool we want.

Not at all trying to get you to change your mind. What I would like, from
those who think desktop Linux competes well, are examples of where it does
well on common desktop tasks.

You have pointed to containers... and I admit I know little of them. Maybe
you have a point there. Maybe not. Or maybe we will disagree - I am OK with
that. I still would like to learn more about them.

> Seriously give it some thought.
> 
> 
>> You keep going to how great Linux is for servers as if someone is
>> disagreeing. Weird. Can I ask why?
>> 
> 



-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352581

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-28 18:47 -0700
Message-ID<cKOdneXP8tW3IL_KnZ2dnUU7-VHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#352577
On 2016-04-29, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

// snip

> Not at all trying to get you to change your mind. What I would like, from
> those who think desktop Linux competes well, are examples of where it does
> well on common desktop tasks.

You have the wrong mind-set. I don't common desktop tasks to you. I use
Vim. Do you? Can you compare Word to Vim? I don't have embedded graphics
in Vim, it's a text editor and its where I write any program, script or
document. So what are you going to compare to, textWrangler? I wouldn't
care. Vim is long running history of updates and features that without 6
months of training you'd never really understand. 

So you can run Vim. I run it on a Mac. There, we have Vim vs. Vim. It's
a draw isn't not? 

I use Mutt for email. It's a text based email app. I also use
Thunderbird. Are you going to tell me your email is so much better than
mine? I suppose you could talk about your preview feature, which I could
care less about. And again, Thunderbird isn't going to derail Linux.
It's nothing that will sell your platform or push anyone on the fence
for Linux to go with it. It's available on all platform and works the
same way. 

Firefox. Same thing. 

Libre Office. We can both run it. So again, who cares. 

What's really different. The file systems, the hardware, the
opportunity, the scale and so on. Which are things I have described. 

-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352586

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-04-28 19:27 -0700
Message-ID<D34814B2.714E0%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#352581
On 4/28/16, 6:47 PM, in article
cKOdneXP8tW3IL_KnZ2dnUU7-VHNnZ2d@giganews.com, "Marek Novotny"
<marek.novotny@marspolar.com> wrote:

> On 2016-04-29, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> 
> // snip
> 
>> Not at all trying to get you to change your mind. What I would like, from
>> those who think desktop Linux competes well, are examples of where it does
>> well on common desktop tasks.
> 
> You have the wrong mind-set.

I have a different focus about computing than you do. That does not make
either of us right or wrong. Really, it speaks well of the modern computing
world that we can have such different focuses - their is a HUGE world out
there dealing with the technology.

> I don't common desktop tasks to you.

Not sure what you mean here.

> I use Vim. Do you?

I used to use VI, back in the 1980s and '90s. I do not use it much now. For
my text editing needs I tend to use a program called Text Wrangler.

> Can you compare Word to Vim?

In general terms, sure... but you do so below. :)

> I don't have embedded graphics in Vim, it's a text editor and its where I
> write any program, script or document. So what are you going to compare to,
> textWrangler? I wouldn't care. Vim is long running history of updates and
> features that without 6 months of training you'd never really understand.

As I said, I used to use it... though I have not kept up with it at all.

> So you can run Vim. I run it on a Mac. There, we have Vim vs. Vim. It's a draw
> isn't not?

Roughly... there are some difference: on OS X you can use the standard copy
and paste hot keys in the command line (since it does not use command) and
there are some other benefits but overall I would say Linux wins with the
command line... more built in tools if nothing else.

If you are mostly using command line programs then, sure, Linux is the way
to go (and it is also a LOT cheaper).

> I use Mutt for email. It's a text based email app.

Yes, I know. I used to use pan. And tin for Usenet. But, again, not for
years.

With Usenet, that is an area I would say the OS X environment sorta sucks. I
have yet to find a half-way decent client.

> I also use Thunderbird. Are you going to tell me your email is so much better
> than mine? 

It certainly has some significant advantages I often use... just a few that
come to mind:

* I can drag and drop files to the Dock (launcher) icon and start an email
with that file attached.

* I can do the same thing from an open window - using the proxy icon. This
is very cool and streamlines work.

* I can Quick View files in Mail... this means getting a quick preview
without opening another program.

* I can do basic edits to emails. This might not seem like a big deal, but I
use this often (though, oddly enough, less this semester than most). It is
not uncommon to have students email me screenshots showing where they have
challenges - and I use the built in tools to circle things and add text and
arrows and the like. Sure, I could edit in an external editor but having it
built right in makes things far more streamlined (it is actually a plug in
program that I use that ties into Mail)

* It ties into the media browser so users can easily get to their images and
other media - not just by folder / directory location but by their image
albums and playlists and the like. Full disclosure: while I know many who
use this often I only use it rarely.

* I has hot keys and menu names / locations for printing and preferences and
more which I know will match pretty much every other program I use, helping
me be more efficient.

* Full screen system which ties into the system's full screen / workspace
manager. Again, though, for email I do not use this that often (though I do
sometimes)

* It ties into the system wide contact manager which makes emailing others
who are listed there and added elsewhere much easier. This I use often.

* It ties into my system wide spell checker so if I add a word in, say,
TextEdit I do not have to add it again.

I do not believe Thunderbird has any of those, though I would have to check
to be sure. 

With that said, it does NOT allow me to use left and right arrow keys to get
in and out of mailboxes. I have not used Thunderbird much recently, but I
believe it has that feature (or maybe I am thinking of another program). In
my mind any "three-panel viewer" program should... email, RSS, Usenet, etc.

> I suppose you could talk about your preview feature, which I could
> care less about.

You asked me if my email was better. I listed some features where it is. I
am not going to try to judge which ones would find important, esp. since you
are not used to them. It is not the same as your comments with VI/VIM, but
the idea is the same: to use these tools well, you need to learn how they
work and how they integrate. Yes, a newbie can use them, but an experience
used can use them much better. And by chaining things together and
understanding what to expect, the experienced user can become a lot more
efficient and less error prone.

> And again, Thunderbird isn't going to derail Linux. It's nothing that will
> sell your platform or push anyone on the fence for Linux to go with it. It's
> available on all platform and works the same way.
> 
> Firefox. Same thing.
> 
> Libre Office. We can both run it. So again, who cares.

LibreOffice is considered high end on Linux... but low end on OS X and
Windows. Yes, I have clients who use it (on my recommendation) but it is a
pretty basic suite. It does not do as many things as MS Office and does not
do things as smoothly as iWork. The fact it is free is a benefit but that is
about it. 

Even then, though, some time ago I compared LibreOffice on OS X and Linux...
it has a number of benefits on OS X (some might be outdated by now):

* A saved status indicator. At a glance know if your file is
  changed.

* Right-click on name in title bar to get full path to the file.
  This is an "active" list: click on any part of the path to get
  there.

* Proxy icon to allow for copies or aliases (links) from the open
  window, or to allow you to drag the file to email it or drag it
  to another program

* Access to your media browser to help select an image directly
  from whatever category you want: moments, collections, years,
  places, or albums.

* Terms and placement and hotkeys for quitting and preferences
  which are consistent with the system.

* Help system where you can type the name of any menu command and
  easily find it, even if in a submenu.

* Full screen system which ties into the system's full screen /
  workspace manager

* Recent items from the launcher... and it works even if the file
  has been renamed or moved (though it does not show the correct
  name in that case, it does still open the file)

* Print to PDF to any program you want... for example converting
  it to a PDF and sending it to a mail program or chat client or
  the like.

* You can close all the windows and not have to have the start
  screen as a place holder.

* It shows not just recent files but currently open files in the
  launcher.

* If you copy from it then close the program you can still paste
  elsewhere.

* In the system itself you can use QuickLook to view files (in the
  Finder, Mail, etc.).

> What's really different. The file systems, the hardware, the opportunity, the
> scale and so on. Which are things I have described.

Also the overall user interface and integration of the tools on the system.
Both are important. I would say Linux does better with some of the things
you list, and those matter for the techie. For the general user, though,
being able to just sit down and get things done is more important.

So you are not wrong: for you and other techies who do not use a computer
like most people but instead (largely) think in terms of what you do with
the command line and the server Linux is a great solution. But for the
general desktop - not so much.


-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#352635

From-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
Date2016-04-29 03:32 -0700
Message-ID<0a573fa7-f180-40db-b1da-fe2194954c81@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#352575
On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 9:00:24 PM UTC-4, Marek Novotny wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > You can use containers or VMs on any of the OSs. I personally use a VM
> > because it makes more sense for my use. For most people they will have no
> > need... [...]
> 
> So there is an excellent example of what is common on Linux. For
> example, Canonical setup 10 Intel NUCs, you know those really tiny lost
> cost computers? Anyway, they stuck 10 of them in a big orange box with a
> switch and use it to demo OpenStack. They leave it with clients and
> client get to play with the box such that once they understand the
> mechanics of Open Stack they can now think about OpenStack at larger
> scales. 
> 
> This all starts on someone's desktop or laptop. There is a new push to
> make containers on laptops with an application front end to make as easy
> as you find making VMs. Mostly because you're guided to make that VM. So
> it feels like a desktop application but you get the benefit of more than
> your Mac. Well, imagine that same ease of use with containers. It is
> estimated a simple 2-core mid range laptop could easily become many
> containers that feel like VMs, but they're not. 
> 
> So we have two examples going on here. We have something that is meant
> to be very large scale running on some little box with 10 NUCs as a real
> world small cloud. And in the other example we have something like a
> container being used to improve efficiency on something as small a
> mid-range dual core laptop. 

That man be useful for the user if: (a) there's a "killer app" that materially 
benefits from being able to scale like that, and (b) that the other system trades
are adequately addressed, such as power consumption in a laptop computer
form factor, and (c) that there's also nothing else in the architecture which 
makes this 'scalable horsepower' be bottlenecked to be no different than the
current solution.  Otherwise, it seems to mostly just be a mere desktop emulator
for a server system. 
 
 

> But you're not seeing that development take place on the Mac. Apple's
> more interested in selling you some more cute features on top of
> whatever they delivered last year. That's their business model. 

Yes, and there's actually lots of business fields that Apple is simply not 
interested in.  Network servers are another example, as are also low end
PCs, but also motorcycles, single family homes, scuba gear & breakfast cereal. 


> We're giving it all away.

That's nice, but free isn't a business model that puts breakfast cereal on the table 
each morning to live.  So just what do you do to eat?  

 

> Here is something I thought about just for Snit, and I am being quite
> serious and I think you should seriously consider what I am about to
> write. [...] I'd be willing to bet there are hotels, small
> businesses and even regular people that would like a good firewall.
> right now in the news we hear about so many hacks. Now is a good time
> for some enterprising person, HINT: that's maybe you. To learn something
> like pfSense. You could charge $500 for the device, another $250 to set
> it up and maybe $500 a year to update it and visit them say 4 times a
> year to check up on it and see how they are doing. Add whatever needs to
> be added for the ongoing subscription service. 
> 
> You would not owe anyone a license fee. The customer would have a top
> notch FireWall and peace of mind. Each customer you gain for a FireWall
> might ask you about other things you can offer them. Maybe you decide to
> offer them a nice NAS box. Again, no license to pay for. Free and open.
> You charge for the box, install and on going maintenance. 

An interesting business plan, although I have my doubts about small 
businesses really being interested enough in firewalls to spend this much as
a potential client.  But nevertheless, accepting the premise and its suggested 
revenue numbers, let's see what a basic business plan outline might look like:

Time available (notional):  
52 weeks per year ... but then minus 2 weeks for holidays, 4 for vacations, 
2 for sick days as the typical level of benefits that one can expect from a generic 
large employer (vs self-employed).  This results in (52-2-4-2) = 40 man-weeks,
which at 40hrs/week = 1760 man-hours per year available.  

Less:
 10% for business management functions (self run small business)
 10% for new business development (new customers)
 20% for general productivity losses
-----------
(1760 hrs) * (1 - 0.1 - 0.1 - 0.2)  = 1056 hrs available/year

Time required per notional client, per year 
assumes {0 hrs at home + 4 visits/year},
assumes visits 1 hour on-site, 30 minute (each way) travel time 
= 8hrs/year-client.

(1056 hrs/year) / (8hrs/year-client) = 100% workloaded at 132 clients.

Income:
132 clients at $500/client annual service fee = $66K/year

Less:
Generic business/self-employment expenses (tax deductibility is irrelevant):
  -$15K - healthcare insurance (ignores subsidies/credits; national average is $17.5K) 
  -$10K - transportation (assumes 20 mi each way * 4 visits * 132 clients @ $0.50/mi)
  -$  1K - business overhead expenses, such as IT hardware 
---------
= $40K/year (Gross) remaining for potential personal income.

And of course, if one isn't 100% workloaded, but has, say, only grown the client 
list to half (66 clients), the above works out to be only $12K/year in income.  Still,
it might not be a bad part time job, especially if someone else is paying healthcare
since that's what kills the less-than-full-time numbers. 

> Now that is a real opportunity. 

Real, but which isn't necessarily great.   How good of an opportunity depends 
on one's perspective & current standing in addition to how realistic the above 
numbers are (including client availability/etc).  For example, if all of the above
is correct and the plan works perfectly to the full client load, would $40K/year 
be a pay cut for you?  And if so, would it be a small or large one?  Reason 
being that few people want to work harder for less unless it comes with some
tangible benefit such as being your own boss.  But even that has its limits,
such as just how large of a pay cut:  who here would be willing to take a 50% 
cut just to be their own boss?  Or if you already are your own boss, would
you turn down an offer to double your pay by working for another?    


-hh

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#352680

FromMarek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com>
Date2016-04-29 09:21 -0700
Message-ID<Yd-dnbI684lpFL7KnZ2dnUU7-UWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#352635
On 2016-04-29, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:

// snip

> That's nice, but free isn't a business model that puts breakfast cereal
> on the table each morning to live.  So just what do you do to eat?

// snip

Pretty much everything you wrote demonstrates a complete miss fire. If
you gain some understanding at all perhaps there could be a conversation
in there somewhere. 
-- 
Marek Novotny
https://github.com/marek-novotny

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#352709

From-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
Date2016-04-29 10:59 -0700
Message-ID<c9c39015-ded8-47f2-a793-816d1723f40c@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#352680
On Friday, April 29, 2016 at 12:21:11 PM UTC-4, Marek Novotny wrote:
> On 2016-04-29, -hh wrote:
> 
> // snip
> 
> > That's nice, but free isn't a business model that puts breakfast cereal
> > on the table each morning to live.  So just what do you do to eat?
> 
> // snip
> 
> Pretty much everything you wrote demonstrates a complete miss fire.

Unsubstantiated claim...noted.

> If you gain some understanding at all perhaps there could be a conversation
> in there somewhere. 

Ad Hominem attempt...noted.

Oh, and there certainly is opportunity for conversation if you weren't trying to
duck & run for the tall grass.  Case in point:

Topic 1:  A cluster of Intel NUCs with OpenStack.  

You specifically referred to this strategy as "...leave it with clients and client get 
to play with the box such that once they understand the mechanics of Open 
Stack they can now think about OpenStack at larger scales."

To which I noted:

"That [may] be useful for the user if: (a) there's a "killer app" ... and (b) that the 
other system trades are adequately addressed, ... and (c) that there's also nothing 
else ...[to make it] no different than the current solution."  And sure, "cloud" is hot
today, but fundamentally it is still just accessing networked iron to do stuff for you
...and even if you want to argue that the iron has changed to small PCs, that trend 
started 20 years ago (and popularized by SETI@home).  So then, just what is your 
notional business case for what problem you're suggesting this new solution for?


Topic 2:   "Apple's more interested in selling you some more cute features"

A point agreed to .. but you were also reminded that your point also extends 
and applies to everywhere else that Apple's choosing to not compete in, such as 
the server market.  Busted.

Topic 3:  is what you left listed above:  you haven't disputed the point that free 
doesn't put food on the table, and you still haven't shown how you do then actually 
provide something not-for-free to allow yourself to make a living. 


Topic 4:  your notional small business for Snit.

Yeah, its an idea.  But now to show me where my numbers analyzing the merits of
the actual business case prospects are wrong.  Do remember that the reasonableness 
of stated assumption(s) are always open to opinion & discussion and that while I did
express  doubt on your claims as overly optimistic, I did use your numbers anyway.  

FYI, a typo ("44 weeks", not 40), but it was trivial and no changes to later numbers.

 
-hh

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#353211

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2016-05-02 07:36 -0500
Message-ID<20ieib5edt7loub7e0nc4l0f24fv404rl6@4ax.com>
In reply to#352680
> lying asshole "-hh" wrote:
>>
>> That's nice, but free isn't a business model that puts breakfast cereal
>> on the table each morning to live.  So just what do you do to eat?

How many times does it need to be explained to you that Free software
is a tool that reduces businesses costs, you *stupid* asshole?

Hey, -highhorse, when are you going to "man up" and point us to the
definitive guide to all the TV shows that tells me which ones that we
will like, or not.

Of course your claim, that such a service existed, was just another of
your lies...

-- 
"BTW, a suggestion:  MAN UP and publish a guide to the "500 Flavors of
Linux" that provides actually useful information for people
considering Linux"  -  lying asshole "-hh"

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#353222

FromSnit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date2016-05-02 07:24 -0700
Message-ID<D34CB123.719FB%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to#353211
On 5/2/16, 5:36 AM, in article 20ieib5edt7loub7e0nc4l0f24fv404rl6@4ax.com,
"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>> lying asshole "-hh" wrote:
>>> 
>>> That's nice, but free isn't a business model that puts breakfast cereal
>>> on the table each morning to live.  So just what do you do to eat?
> 
> How many times does it need to be explained to you that Free software
> is a tool that reduces businesses costs, you *stupid* asshole?

It can. And it can also increase it. Hence the reason why businesses use a
mix.

> Hey, -highhorse, when are you going to "man up" and point us to the
> definitive guide to all the TV shows that tells me which ones that we
> will like, or not.
> 
> Of course your claim, that such a service existed, was just another of
> your lies...



-- 
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?     <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:     <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:     <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

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#353231

FromPeter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de>
Date2016-05-02 16:38 +0200
Message-ID<ng7oi4$odc$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#353222
The lying imbecile Snit Michael Glasser snotted:

> On 5/2/16, 5:36 AM, in article 20ieib5edt7loub7e0nc4l0f24fv404rl6@4ax.com,
> "chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>> lying asshole "-hh" wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> That's nice, but free isn't a business model that puts breakfast cereal
>>>> on the table each morning to live.  So just what do you do to eat?
>> 
>> How many times does it need to be explained to you that Free software
>> is a tool that reduces businesses costs, you *stupid* asshole?
> 
> It can. And it can also increase it. 

Naturally you lying imbecile can actually quote such situations

> Hence the reason why businesses use a mix.

That would hardly be the reason. But then, you know nothing of "business".
Your whole "business" is trolling usenet 24/7. And being a parasite, whose 
"business" is squandering your wifes income

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