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Groups > comp.mobile.android > #143306 > unrolled thread

whatsapp interoperability

Started byAndy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
First post2024-09-06 21:22 +0100
Last post2024-09-21 14:28 +0100
Articles 11 on this page of 51 — 9 participants

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  whatsapp interoperability Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-09-06 21:22 +0100
    Re: whatsapp interoperability Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-09-06 20:59 +0000
      Re: whatsapp interoperability Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-09-08 17:02 +0100
    Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-07 22:33 +0200
      Re: whatsapp interoperability Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-09-07 21:39 +0100
        Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-09 20:37 +0200
          Re: whatsapp interoperability Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-10 14:35 +0200
            Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-10 17:47 +0200
              Re: whatsapp interoperability Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-09-10 15:58 +0000
                Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-10 18:36 +0200
              Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-10 18:21 +0200
                Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-11 18:07 +0200
                  Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-11 18:49 +0200
                    Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-14 17:43 +0200
                      Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-14 20:50 +0200
                        Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-19 11:36 +0200
                          Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-19 21:32 +0200
                            Re: whatsapp interoperability Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-09-19 20:47 +0100
                              Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-20 13:07 +0200
                              Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-20 14:30 +0200
                                Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-20 20:25 +0200
                                  Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-20 21:42 +0200
                                    Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-20 22:38 +0200
                                      Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-21 09:39 +0200
                                        Re: whatsapp interoperability Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2024-09-21 12:24 +0000
                                          Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-21 15:02 +0200
                                            Re: whatsapp interoperability Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-09-21 13:27 +0000
                                            Re: whatsapp interoperability Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2024-09-21 18:03 +0000
                                  Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-21 09:39 +0200
                                    Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-21 13:39 +0200
                                      Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-21 15:23 +0200
                                        Re: whatsapp interoperability Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2024-09-21 18:04 +0000
                                        Re: whatsapp interoperability Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-09-21 22:53 +0000
                                    Re: whatsapp interoperability Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-09-21 13:21 +0000
                      Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-19 10:44 +0200
                  Re: whatsapp interoperability Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-09-12 13:11 +0100
                    Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-12 16:24 +0200
                    Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-14 17:44 +0200
                      Re: whatsapp interoperability Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-09-15 15:56 +0100
                        Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-19 11:31 +0200
                          Re: whatsapp interoperability "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-09-19 21:35 +0200
                            Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-19 23:05 +0200
          Re: whatsapp interoperability Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-09-11 11:15 +0100
            Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-11 18:13 +0200
              Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-11 18:55 +0200
                Re: whatsapp interoperability Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-09-11 20:41 +0100
                  Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-12 06:43 +0200
              Re: whatsapp interoperability Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-09-11 20:26 +0100
                Re: whatsapp interoperability "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2024-09-14 17:48 +0200
                  Re: whatsapp interoperability Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-09-19 11:38 +0200
    Re: whatsapp interoperability Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-09-21 14:28 +0100

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#143414

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2024-09-19 21:35 +0200
Message-ID<11burkxs9c.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#143401
On 2024-09-19 11:31, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 15.09.24 16:56, Richmond wrote:
>> If Signal decides to interoperate,
> 
> What I really doubt.
> They had to break the E2EE. And it has a reason why someone is using
> Signal and not WA.
> 
> For Signal and other providers like Telegram, Threema and even iMsg it
> would mean instant suicide. Why should anyone use them instead of the
> "original"?
> 
> In this case the authorities are undermining competition instead of
> promoting it.

Good!

They are also going to mandate Apple to open up their software to other 
hardware competitors, under fine of 10% world earnings.

I love this government! :-P

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#143417

FromJörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net>
Date2024-09-19 23:05 +0200
Message-ID<vci3lt$fblc$1@solani.org>
In reply to#143414
Am 19.09.24 um 21:35 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> On 2024-09-19 11:31, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> On 15.09.24 16:56, Richmond wrote:
>>> If Signal decides to interoperate,
>>
>> What I really doubt.
>> They had to break the E2EE. And it has a reason why someone is using
>> Signal and not WA.
>>
>> For Signal and other providers like Telegram, Threema and even iMsg it
>> would mean instant suicide. Why should anyone use them instead of the
>> "original"?
>>
>> In this case the authorities are undermining competition instead of
>> promoting it.
> 
> Good!
> 
> They are also going to mandate Apple to open up their software to other
> hardware competitors, under fine of 10% world earnings.

How trollish you are all the time! Can be seen how brainless you defend 
this proprietary non standardised private crap called WhatsApp. *LOL*

> I love this government! :-P

It is yours not mine.


-- 
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

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#143347

FromRichmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com>
Date2024-09-11 11:15 +0100
Message-ID<86ttemlcml.fsf@example.com>
In reply to#143328
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> writes:

> On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 21:39:08 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure Signal or Telegram want to play, didn't they say they'd 
>> rather GTFO the EU if they were forced to?
>
> I did some searching and Signal indeed stated they won't do it. It seems
> the DMA was only meant for Meta (WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger). At
> least that's how it seems to me. Signal has a problem with it since Meta
> won't let Signal have a look at their encryption while Signal's is open
> source.
>

I think this is a shame. I am on signal and not on whatsapp. But I know
the vast majority won't shift just because of a small minority. And that
is their choice. If they interoperate then there won't be so much
pressure on people to join or stay on whatsapp. As whatsapp users
already have my telephone number in their contacts, and whatsapp has
access to that, it wouldn't matter much. Or they could use an arbitrary
identifier.

Whatsapp uses the Signal protocol. How did they make open source into
closed source? "The Signal Protocol is licensed under the GNU Affero
General Public License (AGPLv3). This license requires that the complete
source code of the licensed work and any modifications be made available
under the same license."

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#143349

From"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid>
Date2024-09-11 18:13 +0200
Message-ID<lkdtt9Fp3gkU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#143347
On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 11:15:46 +0100, Richmond wrote:

> Whatsapp uses the Signal protocol. How did they make open source into
> closed source? "The Signal Protocol is licensed under the GNU Affero
> General Public License (AGPLv3). This license requires that the complete
> source code of the licensed work and any modifications be made available
> under the same license."

I don't know the details, but someone explained it like this:

A Signal user sends a message to a WA user. The encryption is:

aZ*2

When it reaches the servers at WA something gets added:

aZ*2[Vy*3]

This way data could be gathered by Meta. Meta doesn't give access to
Signal to check if something like this doesn't happen.

I don't know if I'm explaining correctly, but if Signal doesn't want to
cooperate they must have a damn good reason.

-- 
s|b

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#143351

FromJörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net>
Date2024-09-11 18:55 +0200
Message-ID<vbsi1l$42eg$1@solani.org>
In reply to#143349
On 11.09.24 18:13, s|b wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 11:15:46 +0100, Richmond wrote:
> 
>> Whatsapp uses the Signal protocol. How did they make open source into
>> closed source? "The Signal Protocol is licensed under the GNU Affero
>> General Public License (AGPLv3). This license requires that the complete
>> source code of the licensed work and any modifications be made available
>> under the same license."
> 
> I don't know the details, but someone explained it like this:
> 
> A Signal user sends a message to a WA user. The encryption is:
> 
> aZ*2
> 
> When it reaches the servers at WA something gets added:
> 
> aZ*2[Vy*3]
> 
> This way data could be gathered by Meta. Meta doesn't give access to
> Signal to check if something like this doesn't happen.
> 
> I don't know if I'm explaining correctly, but if Signal doesn't want to
> cooperate they must have a damn good reason.

No: Signal has absolutely no intention to break their encryption which
is a condition for interoperability. Would Signal do that I would drop
it immediately. Signal uses an end-to-end-encryption which WA does not
really. Alternative suppliers like Signal, Threema, iMsg or Telegram
would commit immediate suicide if they would follow that route.

-- 
"De gustibus non est disputandum."

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#143353

FromRichmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com>
Date2024-09-11 20:41 +0100
Message-ID<86v7z2kmfq.fsf@example.com>
In reply to#143351
Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> writes:

> On 11.09.24 18:13, s|b wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 11:15:46 +0100, Richmond wrote:
>> 
>>> Whatsapp uses the Signal protocol. How did they make open source
>>> into closed source? "The Signal Protocol is licensed under the GNU
>>> Affero General Public License (AGPLv3). This license requires that
>>> the complete source code of the licensed work and any modifications
>>> be made available under the same license."
>> 
>> I don't know the details, but someone explained it like this:
>> 
>> A Signal user sends a message to a WA user. The encryption is:
>> 
>> aZ*2
>> 
>> When it reaches the servers at WA something gets added:
>> 
>> aZ*2[Vy*3]
>> 
>> This way data could be gathered by Meta. Meta doesn't give access to
>> Signal to check if something like this doesn't happen.
>> 
>> I don't know if I'm explaining correctly, but if Signal doesn't want
>> to cooperate they must have a damn good reason.
>
> No: Signal has absolutely no intention to break their encryption which
> is a condition for interoperability. Would Signal do that I would drop
> it immediately. Signal uses an end-to-end-encryption which WA does not
> really. Alternative suppliers like Signal, Threema, iMsg or Telegram
> would commit immediate suicide if they would follow that route.

How do you know android isn't stealing your data?

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#143354

FromJörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net>
Date2024-09-12 06:43 +0200
Message-ID<vbtri2$4p2m$4@solani.org>
In reply to#143353
On 11.09.24 21:41, Richmond wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> writes:
> 
>> On 11.09.24 18:13, s|b wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 11:15:46 +0100, Richmond wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whatsapp uses the Signal protocol. How did they make open source
>>>> into closed source? "The Signal Protocol is licensed under the GNU
>>>> Affero General Public License (AGPLv3). This license requires that
>>>> the complete source code of the licensed work and any modifications
>>>> be made available under the same license."
>>>
>>> I don't know the details, but someone explained it like this:
>>>
>>> A Signal user sends a message to a WA user. The encryption is:
>>>
>>> aZ*2
>>>
>>> When it reaches the servers at WA something gets added:
>>>
>>> aZ*2[Vy*3]
>>>
>>> This way data could be gathered by Meta. Meta doesn't give access to
>>> Signal to check if something like this doesn't happen.
>>>
>>> I don't know if I'm explaining correctly, but if Signal doesn't want
>>> to cooperate they must have a damn good reason.
>>
>> No: Signal has absolutely no intention to break their encryption which
>> is a condition for interoperability. Would Signal do that I would drop
>> it immediately. Signal uses an end-to-end-encryption which WA does not
>> really. Alternative suppliers like Signal, Threema, iMsg or Telegram
>> would commit immediate suicide if they would follow that route.
> 
> How do you know android isn't stealing your data?

OT.

-- 
"De gustibus non est disputandum."

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#143352

FromRichmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com>
Date2024-09-11 20:26 +0100
Message-ID<86zfoekn3z.fsf@example.com>
In reply to#143349
"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> writes:

> On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 11:15:46 +0100, Richmond wrote:
>
>> Whatsapp uses the Signal protocol. How did they make open source into
>> closed source? "The Signal Protocol is licensed under the GNU Affero
>> General Public License (AGPLv3). This license requires that the complete
>> source code of the licensed work and any modifications be made available
>> under the same license."
>
> I don't know the details, but someone explained it like this:
>
> A Signal user sends a message to a WA user. The encryption is:
>
> aZ*2
>
> When it reaches the servers at WA something gets added:
>
> aZ*2[Vy*3]
>
> This way data could be gathered by Meta. Meta doesn't give access to
> Signal to check if something like this doesn't happen.
>
> I don't know if I'm explaining correctly, but if Signal doesn't want to
> cooperate they must have a damn good reason.

What data do they collect? The FAQ says they use E2EE.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/820124435853543

"Privacy and security is in our DNA, which is why we built end-to-end
encryption into our app. When end-to-end encrypted, your messages,
photos, videos, voice messages, documents, status updates, and calls are
secured from falling into the wrong hands."

Signal used to be able to send SMS messages. I think as long as you know
that a message is not going to be E2EE and you can choose to go ahead it
is OK.

In order to display a message it has to be decrypted, and that's true
for all apps, so at that point an app could collect data.

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#143371

From"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid>
Date2024-09-14 17:48 +0200
Message-ID<lklpj2FgepU3@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#143352
On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 20:26:56 +0100, Richmond wrote:

> What data do they collect? The FAQ says they use E2EE.

Sure they do. <eyes to the ceiling>

-- 
s|b

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#143403

FromJörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net>
Date2024-09-19 11:38 +0200
Message-ID<vcgrfc$c7vd$3@solani.org>
In reply to#143371
On 14.09.24 17:48, s|b wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 20:26:56 +0100, Richmond wrote:
> 
>> What data do they collect? The FAQ says they use E2EE.
> 
> Sure they do. <eyes to the ceiling>

They do. Nobody said you have to use them if you do not trust them.
Besides Threema and Apple it is the only service I trust.


-- 
"De gustibus non est disputandum."

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#143443

FromRichmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com>
Date2024-09-21 14:28 +0100
Message-ID<86v7ypcezz.fsf@example.com>
In reply to#143306
If Signal doesn't want to interoperate, I bet someone else will. If
Delta Chat decided to do it for example, then there would be an
interface between Whatsapp and email. And there is no overhead of having
to set up a chat server.

And if Delta Chat doesn't want to do it, as it is open source, someone
could fork it.

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