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How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet

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  How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-13 06:00 +0000
    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-13 15:34 +0200
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-13 16:06 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-14 00:20 +0200
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:41 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-09-14 00:27 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:41 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-14 07:35 +0100
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-14 07:54 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-09-15 11:53 +0100
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet pamela <invalid@nospam.com> - 2016-09-17 14:28 +0100
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-09-17 21:30 +0100
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:45 -0700
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:51 -0700
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:30 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 18:43 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-16 20:08 +0100
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-17 09:17 +0100
                  Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-17 17:27 +0000
                    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 02:12 +0000
                      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-19 15:42 +0000
                        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-19 16:33 +0000
                          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-19 17:42 +0000
                        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-19 18:41 +0100
                          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-20 03:21 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 13:04 -0700
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 20:23 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:31 -0700
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-15 09:49 -0700
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:33 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-19 19:22 +0200
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:30 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 13:16 -0700
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 04:52 +0000
    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-09-14 00:24 +0000
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:40 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet bruce <bruce@invalid.dyndns.tv.invalid> - 2016-09-14 18:41 -0400
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:56 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet bruce <bruce@invalid.dyndns.tv.invalid> - 2016-09-17 16:12 -0400
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> - 2016-09-17 19:04 -0400
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 02:30 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-17 22:54 -0400
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> - 2016-09-15 01:04 -0400
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 23:17 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 23:36 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 22:22 -0700
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 06:17 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 06:32 +0000
                  Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-17 10:08 -0400
                    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-09-17 16:13 +0200
                    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
                      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:49 +0000
                        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 04:00 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 02:00 +0000

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#34163 — How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet

If you know the MAC address of your equipment (e.g., automotive WiFi 
beacons), and the MAC address of someone else's equipment, how can you look 
up *where* your phone currently is?

I know that a public free easily accessible Google API maintains that 
information, where if you know the MAC address of the person you're trying 
to track, you can find out instantly if two MAC addresses are near each 
other from anywhere in the world:
https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geolocation/intro

For the Google lookup, the only *mandatory* parameters are:
1. MAC ADDRESS #1
2. MAC ADDRESS #2
3. A fabricated signal-strength value

However, there must be *other* MAC-address GPS-location lookup engines on 
the net, for example, you can track vehicle beacons here:
https://wigle.net

Do you know of other MAC address location lookup engines?




 

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#34172

On 2016-09-13 08:00, Horace Algier wrote:
> If you know the MAC address of your equipment (e.g., automotive WiFi 
> beacons), and the MAC address of someone else's equipment, how can you look 
> up *where* your phone currently is?

Not the MAC. You need the current IP. And the database works well only
for fixed devices, not mobile. To know the current location of a mobile
device you need a court order, and then tell his phone company to
triangulate his signal. It is done on the phone number, not the IP, nor
the MAC. Although it can be possible to correlate all figures.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#34179

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:34:26 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Not the MAC. You need the current IP. And the database works well only
> for fixed devices, not mobile. To know the current location of a mobile
> device you need a court order, and then tell his phone company to
> triangulate his signal. It is done on the phone number, not the IP, nor
> the MAC. Although it can be possible to correlate all figures.

Hi Carlos,

Thanks for taking a risk by trying to answer the question.

You are completely correct in that the system works best for *fixed*
devices, and I don't disagree one bit about that.

But ... if the intent is to track someone's wherabouts, then it has to work
for a mobile device.

So, my key question is *when* does a mobile device broadcast it's MAC
address (BSSID & SSID)?

Does a mobile device broadcast its MAC address when acting as a hotspot,
for example?

Once the MAC address is broadcast as an AP, *all* the (poorly configured)
Android devices in the vicinity will throw the user under the bus by
handing that MAC address (and much more) to Google's constantly updated
database.

PS: You're talking about a *different* process when you are talking about
court orders and IP addresses - which is not relevant to this conversation
of looking up two MAC addresses in the Google public database.

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#34202

On 2016-09-13 18:06, Horace Algier wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:34:26 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> 
>> Not the MAC. You need the current IP. And the database works well only
>> for fixed devices, not mobile. To know the current location of a mobile
>> device you need a court order, and then tell his phone company to
>> triangulate his signal. It is done on the phone number, not the IP, nor
>> the MAC. Although it can be possible to correlate all figures.
> 
> Hi Carlos,
> 
> Thanks for taking a risk by trying to answer the question.
> 
> You are completely correct in that the system works best for *fixed*
> devices, and I don't disagree one bit about that.
> 
> But ... if the intent is to track someone's wherabouts, then it has to work
> for a mobile device.
> 
> So, my key question is *when* does a mobile device broadcast it's MAC
> address (BSSID & SSID)?

That data is broadcast only over wifi to devices in the vicinity that
can listen on WiFi. There is no reason to broadcast this on internet to
a google database; if this is done, you can opt out, and I have not seen
the opt out for this. I have seen the opt out or in for other privacy
data, but not this.

> Does a mobile device broadcast its MAC address when acting as a hotspot,
> for example?

As far as I know, no. Not to google, that is.
It is of course broadcast over wifi radio to those that intend to connect.
It may be stored in Drive, same as password data, if you opt in to that.
And it is treated as private data, so they say.


> Once the MAC address is broadcast as an AP, *all* the (poorly configured)
> Android devices in the vicinity will throw the user under the bus by
> handing that MAC address (and much more) to Google's constantly updated
> database.

As far as I know, Android phones with GPS on listen to nearby WiFi AP
traffic in order to tabulate where an SSID is located, so that later
devices asking for location can be told where they are by listing what
SSIDs are nearby. For this procedure a mobile AP SSID is plain useless.

-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#34208

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 00:20:13 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> So, my key question is *when* does a mobile device broadcast it's MAC
>> address (BSSID & SSID)?
> 
> That data is broadcast only over wifi to devices in the vicinity that
> can listen on WiFi. There is no reason to broadcast this on internet to
> a google database; if this is done, you can opt out, and I have not seen
> the opt out for this. I have seen the opt out or in for other privacy
> data, but not this.
> 
>> Does a mobile device broadcast its MAC address when acting as a hotspot,
>> for example?
> 
> As far as I know, no. Not to google, that is.
> It is of course broadcast over wifi radio to those that intend to connect.
> It may be stored in Drive, same as password data, if you opt in to that.
> And it is treated as private data, so they say.
> 
>> Once the MAC address is broadcast as an AP, *all* the (poorly configured)
>> Android devices in the vicinity will throw the user under the bus by
>> handing that MAC address (and much more) to Google's constantly updated
>> database.
> 
> As far as I know, Android phones with GPS on listen to nearby WiFi AP
> traffic in order to tabulate where an SSID is located, so that later
> devices asking for location can be told where they are by listing what
> SSIDs are nearby. For this procedure a mobile AP SSID is plain useless.

Hi Carlos,
Thank you for responding again, as I realize it's risky when deeply
technical subjects are being discussed (where is Jeff Liebermann when we
need him!).

I think that you and I both know a lot and we both know nothing, because I
can see huge technical flaws in your statements (and those of William
Unruh) and you can (and he) can see similarly huge technical flaws in mine.

Yet, we're working torward the same goal, which is how to look up the GPS
*location* of two MAC addresses which we *presume* to be close to each
other. (NOTE: This is not the *intent* of the Google database, so, all the
talk about "the Internet" and "reasons for broadcast", etc., are absolutely
meaningless for *this* purpose.)

For this purpose, we only care about what "is" a fact.

Basically, I can easily see a purported flaw in the system, and that's what
I'm trying to publicly and openly and legally exploit by better
understanding that reputed flaw.

The "flaw" is, that under certain circumstances, a device can be "tracked",
using the Google public API in a valid but unusual way, which is to simply
*query* that database for two known MAC addresses.

Since we're *not* talking about *normal* purposes, but we're talking about
a potential flaw, we should first iron out what we *agree* on as technical
details.
1. GOOGLE DATABASE QUERY BY AN INDIVIDUAL
2. AUTOMATIC BSSID COLLECTION BY GOOGLE
3. MANUALLY OPTING OUT OF THE GOOGLE DATABASE

1. GOOGLE DATABASE QUERY:
I am absolutely positive that only the following data is needed in order to
run a search into the Google public API to find the *location* of a MAC
address for those who own an account on the Google server:
a. The BSSID (aka MAC address) of device 1
b. The BSSID (aka MAC address) of device 2
c. A signal strength of each (which can be bogus)

If you disagree, I will dig up a reference for that datapoint.

2. BSSID COLLECTION BY GOOGLE:
I am absolutely positive that the BSSID of all access points that are
*seen* by almost all Android devices (except mine, because I know about
this and therefore have turned it off) is being *sent* to Google
periodically during the day by (most) Android cellphones. (NOTE: The Google
cars *also* collect similar data; but this discussion has nothing to do
with the Google car collection data, even though that car populates the
same Google database.)

So this means that almost everyone with an Android device, who is near
enough to your home to receive your WiFi signals, is both automagically
*collecting* and automagically *sending* to Google *your* access point
information, under the conditions outlined below.

This includes:
a. Your router's SSID
b. Your router's BSSID (which is your all-important unique MAC address)
NOTE: This is the nearly-impossible-to-change MAC address of your router
(and not the trivially cloned MAC address of your router!).
c. Your router's Signal Strength
d. The current GPS location
etc.

If you disagree, I will dig up a reference for that datapoint.

3. OPTING OUT OF THE GOOGLE DATABASE:
While most of us "think" about SSIDs', and while the *collection* by
Android devices consists of far *more* than *just* the MAC address, this
discussion is limited to just the BSSID (aka MAC address) which is
broadcast by access-point equipment, such as a home router. 

I am absolutely positive that one can not stop someone else's Android
cellphone from collecting your router's broadcast MAC address *except* by
either:
a. Turning off the broadcast (which does not hide it from the packet but
which Google will respect as an indication you don't want to be in their
DB)
b. Appending "_nomap" to your SSID (which google will respect *after* the
fact, e.g., your neighbor's Android phone *collects* your SSID/MAC/SS/etc.,
and your neighbor's Android phone *sends* that SSID/MAC/SS/etc. to Google,
but Google (says they will) remove your SSID from their records upon
receipt.

My main question here is *when* does a mobile device *broadcast* its SSID
(where what really matters is the MAC address!)?

However, before we can get to that critical question, we have to understand
the three technical points above.

Do you agree or disagree with the three technical FACTS as I see them?
1. GOOGLE DATABASE QUERY BY AN INDIVIDUAL
2. AUTOMATIC BSSID COLLECTION BY GOOGLE
3. MANUALLY OPTING OUT OF THE GOOGLE DATABASE

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#34204

On 2016-09-13, Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:34:26 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Not the MAC. You need the current IP. And the database works well only
>> for fixed devices, not mobile. To know the current location of a mobile
>> device you need a court order, and then tell his phone company to
>> triangulate his signal. It is done on the phone number, not the IP, nor
>> the MAC. Although it can be possible to correlate all figures.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Thanks for taking a risk by trying to answer the question.
>
> You are completely correct in that the system works best for *fixed*
> devices, and I don't disagree one bit about that.
>
> But ... if the intent is to track someone's wherabouts, then it has to work
> for a mobile device.
>
> So, my key question is *when* does a mobile device broadcast it's MAC
> address (BSSID & SSID)?

Those have nothing to do with the MAC addresses. And the Mac address of
a device ( a wireless card-- that is what a MAC address is the address
of) can be changed at will

>
> Does a mobile device broadcast its MAC address when acting as a hotspot,
> for example?

No.

>
> Once the MAC address is broadcast as an AP, *all* the (poorly configured)
> Android devices in the vicinity will throw the user under the bus by
> handing that MAC address (and much more) to Google's constantly updated
> database.
>
> PS: You're talking about a *different* process when you are talking about
> court orders and IP addresses - which is not relevant to this conversation
> of looking up two MAC addresses in the Google public database.

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#34207

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 00:27:22 -0000 (UTC), William Unruh wrote:

>> So, my key question is *when* does a mobile device broadcast it's MAC
>> address (BSSID & SSID)?
> 
> Those have nothing to do with the MAC addresses. And the Mac address of
> a device ( a wireless card-- that is what a MAC address is the address
> of) can be changed at will

Thank you for trying to help answer the question, as I realize answering
such a deeply technical question involves risk - and we need to communicate
so that we don't waste time on completely meaningless tangents.

First off we have to agree on some terms, and which are meaningful for the
purpose of *this* thread:

- SSID: This is *not* very meaningful for the purpose of this thread!
The SSID is only meaningful in that you can "do things" with your SSID
which tell Google to do *other things*, e.g., you can append "_nomac" to
the end of the SSID and Google promises to *drop* your information from its
databases. But since SSIDs are not generally unique, the SSID is not the
focus of *this* discussion.

- BSSID: This *is* the focus of this discussion, where each router has
*multiple* BSSIDs (aka MAC addresses) and where the focus of this
discussion is *only* on the one unique MAC address that is transmitted in
companion with the SSID of an access point!

It's critical that you understand that your statement is patently incorrect
that the router MAC addresses that *Google* is collecting using your
neighbor's Android device are easily cloned.

The MAC addresses that Google is collecting using your neighbor's poorly
configured Android cellphone are *not* easily changed (you have one per
each radio, e.g., 2.4GHz and 5GHz, for example).

These radio access point MAC addresses are NOT easily cloned!
This has been covered in this newsgroup in detail in the past.

However, even if the router's MAC address could be cloned (it can't, at
least not without desoldering and other heroic actions), it *still* would
be collected by your neighbor's poorly configured Android device.

So, it doesn't matter that you can't clone the MAC address that Google is
collecting by using your neighbor's Android device to automatically send
that information to Google periodically during the day.

The fact is that all poorly configured Android devices are automatically
sending Google throughout the day *your* MAC address of your router.

NOTE: While I'm completely aware that turning off SSID broadcast is
possible (and that it's not useful for security), we are assuming for this
purpose that the SSID is broadcast by the router.

>> Does a mobile device broadcast its MAC address when acting as a hotspot,
>> for example?
> 
> No.

I realize you are trying to help - but I must be blunt, since this *is* the
critical question.

Since this *is* the critical question, a simple "No" is not enough,
especially since your previous statements in this post show that you
misunderstood completely the question and the situation.

I'm sorry if that sounds mean, but, a simple "No" is not believable under
those two circumstances.

The correct answer might still be "No", but you don't understand the
question yet, nor the technical situation, so a "No" all by itself doesn't
help.

My key question is *when* does an Android cellphone broadcast the MAC but
most people get all hung up about MAC addresses - so I'll dumb down the
question to ask "When does an Android cellphone broadcast an SSID?".

Q: Under what conditions does an Android cellphone broadcast an SSID?
NOTE: I don't care about the SSID - I care about the MAC - but people get
hung up about MAC addresses so I'll ask it in the simpler form.

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#34210

Horace Algier wrote:

> I'll dumb down the question

Doesn't matter if the hat says "Alice J", "Aardvarks" or "Horace", 
people don't want to go over the same ground again ...

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#34215

Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net>... oops I mean "Aardvarks"... oops I
mean "Paul M. Cook"... oops I mean "VPN User"... oops I mean "Joe
Clock"... oops I mean "Marob Katon" ...  oops I mean "Chris Rangoon"...
wrote:
> My key question is *when* does an Android cellphone broadcast the MAC but
> most people get all hung up about MAC addresses - so I'll dumb down the
> question to ask "When does an Android cellphone broadcast an SSID?".
> 
> Q: Under what conditions does an Android cellphone broadcast an SSID?
> NOTE: I don't care about the SSID - I care about the MAC - but people get
> hung up about MAC addresses so I'll ask it in the simpler form.

  You don't ask a dumbed down question, but a dumb question and your
'question' isn't a question, but a false statement.

  HTH.

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#34248

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 08:54:56 +0100, Frank Slootweg  
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net>... oops I mean "Aardvarks"... oops I
> mean "Paul M. Cook"... oops I mean "VPN User"... oops I mean "Joe
> Clock"... oops I mean "Marob Katon" ...  oops I mean "Chris Rangoon"...
> wrote:
>> My key question is *when* does an Android cellphone broadcast the MAC  
>> but
>> most people get all hung up about MAC addresses - so I'll dumb down the
>> question to ask "When does an Android cellphone broadcast an SSID?".
>>
>> Q: Under what conditions does an Android cellphone broadcast an SSID?
>> NOTE: I don't care about the SSID - I care about the MAC - but people  
>> get
>> hung up about MAC addresses so I'll ask it in the simpler form.
>
>   You don't ask a dumbed down question, but a dumb question and your
> 'question' isn't a question, but a false statement.
>
>   HTH.

It's a xposting troll.

-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

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#34342

On 05:41  14 Sep 2016, Horace Algier wrote:
> 
> I realize you are trying to help - but I must be blunt, since
> this *is* the critical question.
> 
> Since this *is* the critical question, a simple "No" is not
> enough, especially since your previous statements in this post
> show that you misunderstood completely the question and the
> situation. 
> 
> I'm sorry if that sounds mean, but, a simple "No" is not
> believable under those two circumstances.
> 
> The correct answer might still be "No", but you don't understand
> the question yet, nor the technical situation, so a "No" all by
> itself doesn't help.
> 
> My key question is *when* does an Android cellphone broadcast
> the MAC but most people get all hung up about MAC addresses - so
> I'll dumb down the question to ask "When does an Android
> cellphone broadcast an SSID?". 
> 
> Q: Under what conditions does an Android cellphone broadcast an
> SSID? NOTE: I don't care about the SSID - I care about the MAC -
> but people get hung up about MAC addresses so I'll ask it in the
> simpler form. 

It sounds like someone has a lot of time on their hands.

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#34364

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 14:28:21 +0100, pamela <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 05:41  14 Sep 2016, Horace Algier wrote:
>>
>> I realize you are trying to help - but I must be blunt, since
>> this *is* the critical question.
>>
>> Since this *is* the critical question, a simple "No" is not
>> enough
[]
>
> It sounds like someone has a lot of time on their hands.
Not enough to search the internet and find their own answers though.

-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

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#34253

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 00:27:22 -0000 (UTC), William Unruh
<unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

>> Does a mobile device broadcast its MAC address when acting as a hotspot,
>> for example?

>No.

Yes.  I beg to differ.  ALL (and I do mean ALL) 802.11 bridging is
done on Layer 2 (MAC layer) and does not involve IP addresses or
magic.  In order for an infrastructure client radio (laptop,
smartphone, media gizmo, etc) to know how to get it's packets to the
central access point, it uses a table of MAC addresses to define a
route.  That means that every wireless device has to know the MAC
address of every other wireless device and certainly that of the
cental access point.  Since the headers containing the MAC address are
NOT encrypted, they are easily extracted.  Just take any wi-fi sniffer
or monitor program and sniff some encrypted traffic.  You won't see
inside encrypted payloads, but you'll certainly see all kinds of MAC
addresses (including those from software access points) extracted from
the headers.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#34254

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:45:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>That means that every wireless device has to know the MAC
>address of every other wireless device and certainly that of the
>cental access point.

Sorry, but that was over-simplified.  In peer-to-peer wireless
network, every wireless device needs to know the MAC address of every
other wireless device.  However, in infrastructure mode, each device
needs to only know the MAC address of the central access point.  Of
course, the central access point needs to know the MAC address of all
connected wireless devices.

(wrists hurt.  gotta stop now...)
-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#34300

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:51:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Sorry, but that was over-simplified.  In peer-to-peer wireless
> network, every wireless device needs to know the MAC address of every
> other wireless device.  However, in infrastructure mode, each device
> needs to only know the MAC address of the central access point.  Of
> course, the central access point needs to know the MAC address of all
> connected wireless devices.

Hi Jeff,

There are two *different* questions, only one of which I am asking.

What I'm probing is a specific flaw in the Google public API database.
I'm probing a flaw where we can *circumvent* the Google (flawed) security,
and by doing so, we can track a mobile phone.

We can already track a non-mobile router, but that isnt' the flaw that I'm
probing. Likewise, the *packet* contains the MAC address of either the 5Ghz
radio or the 2.4GHz radio of the mobile phone, but, I'm not discussing that
packet information *unless* that packet information makes it into the
Google public database.

What I *know* makes it into the Google Public database is the SSID/MAC/SS
of any access point that is both "broadcast" and which doesn't have
"_nomac" at the end of the SSID.

How this makes it into the Google Public Database is also well known, which
is that most Android phones are poorly configured such that *they* send
Google this access point information many times a day in the background.

But, as noted, most SSID access points remain in one place. So, finding the
location of a *static* access point is trivial.

What I'm trying to understand is how to probe the flaw in the Google Public
API that allows one to track *mobile* devices.

Specifically, if I *know* two MAC addresses that are already *in* the
Google Public Database, then I can ask the database if they're currently
next to one another at any given moment.

Given I know the BSSID of, say, the Starbucks in town, all I need to know
is the BSSID of the phone, to know whether the phone is at that Starbucks.

So that's why I ask the question:

QUESTION:
- Under what conditions does a cellphone SSID/MAC/SS get put into the
Google Public API by *other* (poorly configured) Android cellphones?

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#34296

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:45:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Yes.  I beg to differ.  ALL (and I do mean ALL) 802.11 bridging is
> done on Layer 2 (MAC layer) and does not involve IP addresses or
> magic. 

Hi Jeff,
I'm only going to respond to you, and not to the many trolls who can't even 
understand the question, and have never added value to *any* thread ever 
(namely, Andy Burns, Frank Slootweg and Kerr-Mudd John, et al.) since you 
are the only one here who both understands what I'm asking and who knows 
more than I do about what I'm 
asking.

I hope your wrist is feeling better (did you fall off a rooftop installing 
antennas over there in Santa Cruz? I thought you gave all that up!).

> In order for an infrastructure client radio (laptop,
> smartphone, media gizmo, etc) to know how to get it's packets to the
> central access point, it uses a table of MAC addresses to define a
> route. 

I am not sure if it's germane to the question, but to understand what 
you're saying, it's that the TCP/UDP *packet* contains the MAC address of 
the cellphone 2.4 GHz or 5GHZ WiFi connection (whichever is being used in 
the WiFI connection).

> That means that every wireless device has to know the MAC
> address of every other wireless device and certainly that of the
> cental access point. 

Again, I'm not sure if the packet contents are germane to the question, 
but, certainly I see that you're saying the MAC address of the 2.4GHz or 
5GHz radio inside the cellphone is *known* to any access point that this 
cellphone communicates with.

Likewise, if the cellphone is acting as an *access point*, it must 
communicate its BSSID (aka MAC address) to any device that *wants to* 
connect to that access point. Right?

> Since the headers containing the MAC address are
> NOT encrypted, they are easily extracted.

I appreciate your detail, Jeff, as you're always very detailed.
I certainly agree that the MAC address of the cellphone 2.4GHz and 5Ghz 
radios is known to any access point that this cellphone connects to, and 
anyone who sniffs the air can also sniff out that MAC address.

But, I'm specifically asking about a specific process that Google 
implemnted in Android cellphones whereby most people (not me, but most 
people) have their cellphones set to hand over to google many times a day 
all the SSID/MAC/GPS/Signal Strength, etc., information that these poorly 
configured cellphones can hand to google.

> or monitor program and sniff some encrypted traffic.  You won't see
> inside encrypted payloads, but you'll certainly see all kinds of MAC
> addresses (including those from software access points) extracted from
> the headers.

I thank you Jeff for the details, as you are one of the few people here who 
back up what you say - but my specific question is all about Google.

It is well known that most Android phones (not mine but most others) are 
set up to send to Google periodically all the SSID/BSSID/SignalStrength 
information the phones see, along with GPS information, of all access 
points that these poorly configured phones encounter.

Specifically, that means my own dumb neighbors, plus all the idiots who 
drive by my house, are sending to Google "my" SSID/BSSID/SignalStrength/ 
and their GPS location, periodically during the day.

Even though "I" have _nomap on my SSID, the information is *still sent* to 
Google (Google simply promises to not put that information into its public 
database).

To access this public database, it is well known that you only need to know 
three things (the penultimte being added simply for security reasons):
1. The MAC address you seek
2. Another MAC address that is known to be nearby
3. The signal strength

If you hand that information to the Google publid databsae (the second only 
having been added for security purposes), Google will hand you back the 
*gps location* of those two MAC addresses, if they are in close proximity.

Given that, it would be easy to track a specific cellphone *if* that 
cellphone broadcasts its MAC address such as to be included in the Google 
API.

What would I have to do, for example, to make my cellphone broadcast its 
MAC address such that one of those poorly configured Android phones (which 
is almost all Android devices out there) would *think* my cellphone is an 
Access Point - and hence it would send Google that SSID/MAC/SS and it's GPS 
location for inclusion in the Google public database?

That question is key, because if my cellphone MAC is included in that 
Google database, it can be tracked.

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#34298

Horace Algier wrote:

> I'm only going to respond to you, and not to the many trolls who can't even
> understand the question, and have never added value to *any* thread ever
> (namely, Andy Burns

I'm going to ask you a direct question, is "Horace Algier" the latest 
nymshift for "Alice J and "Aardvarks"?

If so, you should remember I gave you detailed explanation of google 
GPS/MAC address tracking some months ago, before it was obvious how 
heavily *you* were trolling.

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#34340

Andy Burns asked:

> is "Horace Algier" the latest nymshift for "Alice J and "Aardvarks"?

I'll take the <tumbleweed/> as confirmation.  Despite changes of server, 
client, name, xposted groups or email address, you're recognisable at 
100 paces ...

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#34354

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Andy Burns asked:
> 
> > is "Horace Algier" the latest nymshift for "Alice J and "Aardvarks"?
> 
> I'll take the <tumbleweed/> as confirmation.  Despite changes of server, 
> client, name, xposted groups or email address, you're recognisable at 
> 100 paces ...

  Yes, "Horace Algier" is indeed "Aardvarks".

  Here are some of his other, recent, socks:

"Paul M. Cook", "Joe Clock", "Marob Katon", "Chris Rangoon"

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#34410

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 09:17:12 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
On 17 Sep 2016 17:27:50 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

It's well known that the nyms "Frank Slootweg" and "Andy Burns" are the
same troll, hence no response is necessary.

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