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A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing.

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  A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2024-11-29 14:10 -0800
    Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-11-30 01:11 +0000
      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> - 2024-11-30 03:56 +0000
        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-11-30 04:22 +0000
        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2024-11-29 21:12 -0800
          Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-11-30 07:57 +0100
          Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> - 2024-11-30 07:16 +0000
            Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-11-30 10:57 +0000
          Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-12-02 09:48 +0100
            Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2024-12-02 16:24 +0000
              Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-12-02 17:36 +0000
                Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2024-12-02 18:13 +0000
                  Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-12-02 19:08 +0000
                    Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2024-12-02 13:35 -0700
                      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-12-03 06:51 +0000
                        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2024-12-03 08:40 -0700
              Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2024-12-02 10:11 -0800
              Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-12-02 23:52 +0100
                Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2024-12-02 16:42 -0700
    Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2024-11-29 21:32 -0600
      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2024-11-29 21:35 -0600
        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2024-11-30 08:37 -0600
          Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> - 2024-11-30 13:46 -0500
            Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2024-11-30 14:55 -0600
              Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> - 2024-12-01 17:47 -0500
                Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2024-12-01 18:38 -0600
                  Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-12-02 04:28 +0000
                    Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> - 2024-12-02 08:30 +0000
                      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 17:52 +0000
                        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> - 2024-12-02 21:24 +0000
                          Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 21:58 +0000
                            Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> - 2024-12-02 23:15 +0000
                              Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-12-03 02:51 +0000
                                Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> - 2024-12-03 08:02 +0000
                              Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-12-03 17:39 +0000
                      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2024-12-02 10:08 -0800
                        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-12-02 19:22 +0000
      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2024-11-29 21:01 -0800
        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2024-11-30 02:14 -0600
    Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-11-30 09:36 +0100
    Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-11-30 10:25 +0000
      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andrew <andys@nospam.com> - 2024-11-30 11:12 +0000
        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-11-30 11:36 +0000
        Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. Bill Powell <bill@anarchists.org> - 2024-11-30 19:55 +0100
      Re: A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing. "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2024-11-30 12:41 +0100

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#144673 — A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing.

A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing.

Yesterday we were driving to San Francisco from Silicon Valley and I 
told my son to get us on the wait list for a popular restaurant.

He tried, but the Yelp wait list app uses geofencing and you can't sign 
up on the wait list unless you're within a certain distance from the 
restaurant, apparently five miles, and we were about 15 miles away.

My son has an iPhone. I said to him "well on Android..." and he 
interrupted me and said, "yes, I know what you're going to say, GPS 
location spoofing."

This is the second instance I am aware of where GPS location spoofing 
would be useful. The other is to try to get a two-day advance permit to 
hike "The Wave:" "Two days before desired entry– Apply using your phone 
or other mobile device between 6 AM and 6 PM Utah time two days before 
the desired entry date on recreation.gov. You must be within the 
designated geofenced area to apply."

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#144676

sms wrote on Fri, 29 Nov 2024 14:10:17 -0800 :

> A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing.
> 
> Yesterday we were driving to San Francisco from Silicon Valley and I 
> told my son to get us on the wait list for a popular restaurant.
> 
> He tried, but the Yelp wait list app uses geofencing and you can't sign 
> up on the wait list unless you're within a certain distance from the 
> restaurant, apparently five miles, and we were about 15 miles away.
> 
> My son has an iPhone. I said to him "well on Android..." and he 
> interrupted me and said, "yes, I know what you're going to say, GPS 
> location spoofing."
> 
> This is the second instance I am aware of where GPS location spoofing 
> would be useful. The other is to try to get a two-day advance permit to 
> hike "The Wave:" "Two days before desired entry– Apply using your phone 
> or other mobile device between 6 AM and 6 PM Utah time two days before 
> the desired entry date on recreation.gov. You must be within the 
> designated geofenced area to apply."

Steve is correct that you can't do something even this simple on iOS.

And yet, it's extremely useful for anyone, even as nospam would say it's
  *not needed*   &    *not wanted*
Simply because Apple doesn't have the technical knowhow to implement it.

In fact, this native GPS location spoofing can be used whenever a program 
or web site "thinks" it needs your location - where I use it mostly because 
some programs require GPS location when they don't actually "need" it.

For example, graphical Wi-Fi & cellular debuggers "require" your GPS radio 
to be on, but you know where you are - so they don't actually "need" it.

But you have to give them your location - so - you spoof it. Here's how:
 1. Download a mock-location app
 2. Turn on Developer options
 3. Set the mock-location app
 4. Run the app

The mock-location app I use most is Lexa but there are many to choose from.
I chose Lexa as the Skyica App Finder lists it as the best rated, but other
apps will spoof Wi-Fi providers too, and other apps will move along a road, 
etc., which I found when I tested every Android fake-GPS app a while ago.

Fake GPS location by Lexa
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lexa.fakegps>

Fake GPS Location - LocaEdit
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mobile.fakelocation>

Mocation Fake Location by Rasfar
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rasfar.mock.location>

DS Fake GPS Location by Disciple Skies
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.discipleskies.mock_location_spoofer>

Mock Location and More by Vyrazu Labs
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vyrazu.mocklocationfakegps>

Cartage - Fake GPS Location by Mock Applications
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mock.cartage>

Fake GPS: Location spoofer
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=project.listick.fakegps>

AnyGo GPS Spoofer: Fake GPS
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.luckydog.anygoapp>

Mock Loc
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mocker.mockloc>

Fake GPS Location Spoofer by Fast Video Downloads
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fake.gps.location.changer.spoof.location>

Movable Mock GPS by Tomer Brosh
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bomerapps.movablemockgps>

GPS Locker Fake your location by Foxbyte Code
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.foxbytecode.gpslocker>

Fake GPS Phone Location by Selfie Photo Editor
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=find.my.friends.family.gps.location.tracker>

GPS Spoofer MH Tool - Loc Spoof by liqiyu
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.irocket.locspoof>

GPS Location Change - Joystick by LovMoMo
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.momo.fakegps.locationchanger>

AnyGo-AnyTo Change Location by dcxhwsj
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iFoneTool.AnyGo>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144679

Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
> sms wrote on Fri, 29 Nov 2024 14:10:17 -0800 :
> 
>> A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing.
>> 
>> Yesterday we were driving to San Francisco from Silicon Valley and I 
>> told my son to get us on the wait list for a popular restaurant.
>> 
>> He tried, but the Yelp wait list app uses geofencing and you can't sign 
>> up on the wait list unless you're within a certain distance from the 
>> restaurant, apparently five miles, and we were about 15 miles away.
>> 
>> My son has an iPhone. I said to him "well on Android..." and he 
>> interrupted me and said, "yes, I know what you're going to say, GPS 
>> location spoofing."
>> 
>> This is the second instance I am aware of where GPS location spoofing 
>> would be useful. The other is to try to get a two-day advance permit to 
>> hike "The Wave:" "Two days before desired entryĄV Apply using your phone 
>> or other mobile device between 6 AM and 6 PM Utah time two days before 
>> the desired entry date on recreation.gov. You must be within the 
>> designated geofenced area to apply."
> 
> Steve is correct that you can't do something even this simple on iOS.
> 
> And yet, it's extremely useful for anyone, even as nospam would say it's
>   *not needed*   &    *not wanted*
> Simply because Apple doesn't have the technical knowhow to implement it.
> 
> In fact, this native GPS location spoofing can be used whenever a program 
> or web site "thinks" it needs your location - where I use it mostly because 
> some programs require GPS location when they don't actually "need" it.
> 
> For example, graphical Wi-Fi & cellular debuggers "require" your GPS radio 
> to be on, but you know where you are - so they don't actually "need" it.
> 
> But you have to give them your location - so - you spoof it. Here's how:
>  1. Download a mock-location app
>  2. Turn on Developer options
>  3. Set the mock-location app
>  4. Run the app
> 
> The mock-location app I use most is Lexa but there are many to choose from.
> I chose Lexa as the Skyica App Finder lists it as the best rated, but other
> apps will spoof Wi-Fi providers too, and other apps will move along a road, 
> etc., which I found when I tested every Android fake-GPS app a while ago.
> 
> Fake GPS location by Lexa
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lexa.fakegps>
> 
> Fake GPS Location - LocaEdit
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mobile.fakelocation>
> 
> Mocation Fake Location by Rasfar
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rasfar.mock.location>
> 
> DS Fake GPS Location by Disciple Skies
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.discipleskies.mock_location_spoofer>
> 
> Mock Location and More by Vyrazu Labs
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vyrazu.mocklocationfakegps>
> 
> Cartage - Fake GPS Location by Mock Applications
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mock.cartage>
> 
> Fake GPS: Location spoofer
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=project.listick.fakegps>
> 
> AnyGo GPS Spoofer: Fake GPS
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.luckydog.anygoapp>
> 
> Mock Loc
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mocker.mockloc>
> 
> Fake GPS Location Spoofer by Fast Video Downloads
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fake.gps.location.changer.spoof.location>
> 
> Movable Mock GPS by Tomer Brosh
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bomerapps.movablemockgps>
> 
> GPS Locker Fake your location by Foxbyte Code
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.foxbytecode.gpslocker>
> 
> Fake GPS Phone Location by Selfie Photo Editor
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=find.my.friends.family.gps.location.tracker>
> 
> GPS Spoofer MH Tool - Loc Spoof by liqiyu
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.irocket.locspoof>
> 
> GPS Location Change - Joystick by LovMoMo
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.momo.fakegps.locationchanger>
> 
> AnyGo-AnyTo Change Location by dcxhwsj
>  <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iFoneTool.AnyGo>
> 
Should be built-in in a good VPN app.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144680

Cameo wrote on Sat, 30 Nov 2024 03:56:26 -0000 (UTC) :

> Should be built-in in a good VPN app.

Good point that your IP address contains a geolocatable source location.

My perfect GPS spoofer would return the spoofed GPS location, which would
randomly snap to roads at a random set of paces (consistent with the road
speeds) at a given time frame with the altitude removed as most altitude
spoofing is done via a Google lookup (which kind of gives you away).

I'd also remove the nearby Wi-Fi access points, as they give you away too.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144682

On 11/29/2024 7:56 PM, Cameo wrote:

<snip>

> Should be built-in in a good VPN app.
True, it is built into Surfshark (for Android only).

On an iPhone you can connect the phone to a computer and use iAnyGo, 
$89.95 for a lifetime license.

GPS spoofing can also be a safety thing for victims of abuse that have 
fled an abusive spouse and that want to prevent tracking.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144683

On 30.11.24 06:12, sms wrote:
> On 11/29/2024 7:56 PM, Cameo wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> Should be built-in in a good VPN app.
> True, it is built into Surfshark (for Android only).
> 
> On an iPhone you can connect the phone to a computer and use iAnyGo, 
> $89.95 for a lifetime license.
> 
> GPS spoofing can also be a safety thing for victims of abuse that have 
> fled an abusive spouse and that want to prevent tracking.

There are much better solutions for that which are safer and cheaper.

-- 
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144684

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 11/29/2024 7:56 PM, Cameo wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> Should be built-in in a good VPN app.
> True, it is built into Surfshark (for Android only).

Darn, I do subscribe to Surfshark, but it is not much use on my iPhone.

> On an iPhone you can connect the phone to a computer and use iAnyGo, 
> $89.95 for a lifetime license.
> 
But that would not let me use it away from the computer, right?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144689

Cameo wrote on Sat, 30 Nov 2024 07:16:46 -0000 (UTC) :

>> On an iPhone you can connect the phone to a computer and use iAnyGo, 
>> $89.95 for a lifetime license.
>> 
> But that would not let me use it away from the computer, right?

Bear in mind that the IP address is only one geolocatable entity that a
phone reports back to the site that is trying to locate your position.

IMHO, most Android phones are poorly set up such that they update your
(so-called) "precise location" to Google (via nearby Wi-Fi access points).

I'm not sure about iPhones though. Do they update your (so-called) "precise
location" (via local Wi-Fi access points) to Google & other servers?

Probably not since Apple does its equivalent of (so-called) "precise
location" differently. 

Differentially, Androids *upload* all the access points they can "see" to
online public Google/Mozilla/WiGle/etc., servers,. while iPhones *download*
that public access-point information. 

The question is *where* does Apple get that public AP information from?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144728

sms, 2024-11-30 06:12:

> On 11/29/2024 7:56 PM, Cameo wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> Should be built-in in a good VPN app.
> True, it is built into Surfshark (for Android only).
> 
> On an iPhone you can connect the phone to a computer and use iAnyGo, 
> $89.95 for a lifetime license.
> 
> GPS spoofing can also be a safety thing for victims of abuse that have 
> fled an abusive spouse and that want to prevent tracking.

Only, if that "abusive spouse" knows how to do the tracking. Without
permission no one can just track others people phones. And if the
"abusive spouse" works at a telecommunication provider he may have the
location without any GPS at all, since the mobile network base stations
always know what devices are near them.


-- 
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144735

On 12/2/24 1:48 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
>sms, 2024-11-30 06:12:
>
>> On 11/29/2024 7:56 PM, Cameo wrote:
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>>> Should be built-in in a good VPN app.
>> True, it is built into Surfshark (for Android only).
>> 
>> On an iPhone you can connect the phone to a computer and use iAnyGo, 
>> $89.95 for a lifetime license.
>> 
>> GPS spoofing can also be a safety thing for victims of abuse that have 
>> fled an abusive spouse and that want to prevent tracking.

How many abused spouses would even have a clue on how to set that up?

>Only, if that "abusive spouse" knows how to do the tracking. Without
>permission no one can just track others people phones. And if the
>"abusive spouse" works at a telecommunication provider he may have the
>location without any GPS at all, since the mobile network base stations
>always know what devices are near them.

My wife's iPhone is easy to track from any browser of any device. For
 example I sometimes use this Amazon Fire tablet I'm posting with to check
 on her location when she's late getting home. Course I do have the account
 password since I've always controlled the family electronics. And I suspect
 an abusive spouse could easily do the same thing, no fancy-dancy
 electronics or tracking experience needed... 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144739

AJL wrote on Mon, 2 Dec 2024 16:24:51 -0000 (UTC) :

>>> GPS spoofing can also be a safety thing for victims of abuse that have 
>>> fled an abusive spouse and that want to prevent tracking.
> 
> How many abused spouses would even have a clue on how to set that up?

How many people with plumbing repairs hire a plumber to do the dirty work?

All the "abusive spouse" needs to do is hire someone to track his/her
spouse, so the mere fact that they 'can be tracked' is the problem set.

>>Only, if that "abusive spouse" knows how to do the tracking. Without
>>permission no one can just track others people phones. And if the
>>"abusive spouse" works at a telecommunication provider he may have the
>>location without any GPS at all, since the mobile network base stations
>>always know what devices are near them.
> 
> My wife's iPhone is easy to track from any browser of any device. For
>  example I sometimes use this Amazon Fire tablet I'm posting with to check
>  on her location when she's late getting home. Course I do have the account
>  password since I've always controlled the family electronics. And I suspect
>  an abusive spouse could easily do the same thing, no fancy-dancy
>  electronics or tracking experience needed...

Anyone with physical access to any computing device can add spyware to it.
Anyone with money can hire someone to add that spyware even without access.

The problem set is that you "can" be tracked; not that it takes knowledge
to do it, which is a reason Apple tracking was reviled earlier this year.

 *Apple Geolocation API Exposes Wi-Fi Access Points Worldwide*
 <https://www.darkreading.com/endpoint-security/apple-geolocation-api-exposes-wi-fi-access-points-worldwide>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144743

On 12/2/24 10:36 AM, Andrew wrote:
>AJL wrote on Mon, 2 Dec 2024 16:24:51 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>>> GPS spoofing can also be a safety thing for victims of abuse that have 
>>>> fled an abusive spouse and that want to prevent tracking.
>> 
>> How many abused spouses would even have a clue on how to set that up?
>
>How many people with plumbing repairs hire a plumber to do the dirty work?

Me. But all the work is done safely and legally. 

>All the "abusive spouse" needs to do is hire someone to track his/her
>spouse, so the mere fact that they 'can be tracked' is the problem set.

Hire someone to track a spouse? Bad idea on both legal and criminal grounds.

>>>Only, if that "abusive spouse" knows how to do the tracking. Without
>>>permission no one can just track others people phones. And if the
>>>"abusive spouse" works at a telecommunication provider he may have the
>>>location without any GPS at all, since the mobile network base stations
>>>always know what devices are near them.
>> 
>> My wife's iPhone is easy to track from any browser of any device. For
>>  example I sometimes use this Amazon Fire tablet I'm posting with to check
>>  on her location when she's late getting home. Course I do have the account
>>  password since I've always controlled the family electronics. And I suspect
>>  an abusive spouse could easily do the same thing, no fancy-dancy
>>  electronics or tracking experience needed...
>
>Anyone with physical access to any computing device can add spyware to it.
>Anyone with money can hire someone to add that spyware even without access.

Hire someone to mess with my computer? Bad idea on security grounds.

>The problem set is that you "can" be tracked; not that it takes knowledge
>to do it, which is a reason Apple tracking was reviled earlier this year.

Of course. My granddaughter always tracks her kids. Loves the capability.

> *Apple Geolocation API Exposes Wi-Fi Access Points Worldwide*
> <https://www.darkreading.com/endpoint-security/apple-geolocation-api-exposes-wi-fi-access-points-worldwide>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#144753

AJL wrote on Mon, 2 Dec 2024 18:13:34 -0000 (UTC) :

> On 12/2/24 10:36 AM, Andrew wrote:
>>AJL wrote on Mon, 2 Dec 2024 16:24:51 -0000 (UTC) :
>>
>>>>> GPS spoofing can also be a safety thing for victims of abuse that have 
>>>>> fled an abusive spouse and that want to prevent tracking.
>>> 
>>> How many abused spouses would even have a clue on how to set that up?
>>
>>How many people with plumbing repairs hire a plumber to do the dirty work?
> 
> Me. But all the work is done safely and legally. 

Rest assured, living in the boonies myself, I do all my well pump and
septic work, I take care of my own pool, I cut down trees to burn for
firewood myself, I trench for my (off-grid) guerrilla solar setup, I do my
own electrical work, and plumbing repairs, I refill my carbon dioxide
sodastream canisters at home, I refill my one pound propane tanks from my
20 pounders which themselves are filled from my thousand-gallon propane
tank, I refill the vehicles with gasoline myself at home, my cars are 30
years old and I do all the maintenance & repairs, including changing the
tires when they're worn and balancing them at home, etc.

But my point was that the fact you "can" be tracked is more important than
if the person who wants to track you "knows how" to do it - since they can
always hire someone to do that dirty work for them.

Never seen an Alfred Hitchcock movie? :)
                                            (It's the butler. I swear!). 


>>All the "abusive spouse" needs to do is hire someone to track his/her
>>spouse, so the mere fact that they 'can be tracked' is the problem set.
> 
> Hire someone to track a spouse? Bad idea on both legal and criminal grounds.

If someone is going to track a spouse, I doubt they care if it's legal or
not, but I even doubt whether or not it's illegal if no court order is
involved. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. Neither are you I presume.

I suspect it's perfectly legal to "track a spouse" as long as you don't
break a law (e.g., violating a court order) in doing so.

But you're missing the point completely. 

The privacy hole is that you "can" be tracked. Not that you "are" tracked,
since you will likely never know if you're actually being tracked.

>>>>Only, if that "abusive spouse" knows how to do the tracking. Without
>>>>permission no one can just track others people phones. And if the
>>>>"abusive spouse" works at a telecommunication provider he may have the
>>>>location without any GPS at all, since the mobile network base stations
>>>>always know what devices are near them.
>>> 
>>> My wife's iPhone is easy to track from any browser of any device. For
>>>  example I sometimes use this Amazon Fire tablet I'm posting with to check
>>>  on her location when she's late getting home. Course I do have the account
>>>  password since I've always controlled the family electronics. And I suspect
>>>  an abusive spouse could easily do the same thing, no fancy-dancy
>>>  electronics or tracking experience needed...
>>
>>Anyone with physical access to any computing device can add spyware to it.
>>Anyone with money can hire someone to add that spyware even without access.
> 
> Hire someone to mess with my computer? Bad idea on security grounds.

You probably don't know anything about military theory but it's a classic
premise that you guard against what they "can" do; not what you think
they'll do.

Being an historian at heart, I've seen numerous times in history from the
dawn of antiquity that countries floundered who "thought" the enemy
couldn't get them and the enemy, instead, did what they "could" do - not
what they thought they would do.

Take, for example, the reason the Bull Thistle is the official flower for
Ireland, or the reason Hannibal lost an eye in Italy but defeated Scipio.

You guard against what they "can" do; not what you "think" they will do.
        And they can track you (if you don't guard against it).

>>The problem set is that you "can" be tracked; not that it takes knowledge
>>to do it, which is a reason Apple tracking was reviled earlier this year.
> 
> Of course. My granddaughter always tracks her kids. Loves the capability.
> 
>> *Apple Geolocation API Exposes Wi-Fi Access Points Worldwide*
>> <https://www.darkreading.com/endpoint-security/apple-geolocation-api-exposes-wi-fi-access-points-worldwide>

When my kids went to college, admittedly a long time ago, I added Specter
tracking software to their computers so I would know if they were in
trouble, but I never used it so I didn't bother when they had grandkids.

It's so easy to add a keylogger to any computing device, it's not funny.
Anyone with physical access can do anything to most computers.

That's why you guard against what people "can" do; not what you think they
will do. It's a basic self defense strategy since the dawn of time.

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#144769

On 12/2/2024 12:08 PM, Andrew wrote:
> AJL wrote on Mon, 2 Dec 2024 18:13:34 -0000 (UTC) :

>>> How many people with plumbing repairs hire a plumber to do the
>>> dirty work?
>>
>> Me. But all the work is done safely and legally.
>
> Rest assured, living in the boonies myself, I do all my well pump
> and septic work,

City water here. City sewer here. Been in this house 24 years. No
problems (yet).

> I take care of my own pool,

Three HOA pools here. No maintenance for me...

> I cut down trees to burn for firewood myself,

Kill trees to pollute the atmosphere? Shame.

> I trench for my (off-grid) guerrilla solar setup,

No solar here. Shame on me. But then my electricity comes from the
nuclear plant 30 miles away so maybe no shame on me??

> I do my own electrical work, and plumbing repairs,

No electrical problems yet but I do call the plumber from time to time.

> I refill my carbon dioxide sodastream canisters at home, I refill my
>  one pound propane tanks from my 20 pounders which themselves are
> filled from my thousand-gallon propane tank,

Nothing like that here.

> I refill the vehicles with gasoline myself at home, my cars are 30
> years old and I do all the maintenance & repairs, including changing
>  the tires when they're worn and balancing them at home, etc.

Love those gas stations down the street. My cars a year old now so all
repairs are warranty.

> But my point was that the fact you "can" be tracked is more important
> than if the person who wants to track you "knows how" to do it

Of course I can be tracked. I can't think of anyone who would want to
track me though. It would be very boring for them...

> - since they can always hire someone to do that dirty work for them.

I suppose. Sounds like a bit of paranoia thinking to me though.

> If someone is going to track a spouse, I doubt they care if it's
> legal or not, but I even doubt whether or not it's illegal if no
> court order is involved. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. Neither are
>  you I presume. I suspect it's perfectly legal to "track a spouse" as
>  long as you don't break a law (e.g., violating a court order) in
> doing so.

Agreed. A court order is likely needed for a spouse. But hiring someone
to do the spouse tracking can likely be illegal.

> The privacy hole is that you "can" be tracked. Not that you "are"
> tracked, since you will likely never know if you're actually being
> tracked.

Agreed. So can you. Go to the doctor? It's online. Pay taxes? It's
online. Use a credit card? It's online. Have a bank account? It's
online. Etc etc etc. All available to the computer bad guys (and office
personnel). And you'll probably never know they're (gasp) looking at it...

> It's so easy to add a keylogger to any computing device, it's not
> funny. Anyone with physical access can do anything to most
> computers.

They'd have to break into my house to have access to my toys. If that
happens I suspect the toys would be gone, not key-logged. And unlike you
I keep all my home stuff locked (even my phone) with 5 digit pins so as 
to give me time to change the necessary passwords...

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#144793

AJL wrote on Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:35:41 -0700 :

>> Rest assured, living in the boonies myself, I do all my well pump
>> and septic work,
> 
> City water here. City sewer here. Been in this house 24 years. No
> problems (yet).

I'm glad you're in a jovial mood as this thread got a bit tedious.

The only "services" we get in the boonies come on the telephone poles.
That's electricity. And phone. Not even cable is here yet. Some day.
(That's why we all have our own antennas - we get Wi-Fi from miles away.)

>> I take care of my own pool,
> 
> Three HOA pools here. No maintenance for me...

Just like nobody understands gravity because they've been lied to their
entire lives about what it is, nobody understands pool chemistry either.

If you care, gravity isn't a force. It's the curvature of spacetime inward
rushing at 11km/sec due to mass:energy of the earth - and that inward force
is pressing against the electrostatic outward forces of earth's
electrostatic mass pushing outward at 9.8m/s/s (which is why the earth is
shaped like a ball since those two forces equal out). 

Except tidal forces. They're actually real forces. Go figure.

Anyway, gravity is the earth is expanding outward at 9.8m/s/s and spacetime
is rushing inward at 11km/sec which makes us "feel" like there's a force.

Who knew. Most people don't. Most people are incredibly stupid.

When you truly understand something - it's *never* what people intuit.
Likewise with pool chemistry.

It's too hard to describe but there are only two things that matter with
respect to pool chemistry, one of which is disinfection & the other is
saturation, but with those two things are more than a half-dozen "other
things" that determine if the water is aggressive or scaling and whether or
not you can hold chlorine and how much you need - and any of hundreds of
thousands of permutations & combinations will be acceptable - but what
happens is pool stores and web sites alike pick one or two of those things
and say "that" is what you need to fix - which is why almost nobody
understands pool chemistry. Those half dozen things are here:
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.elitecrest.orenda>
 <https://apps.apple.com/us/app/orenda/id1171005221>

By the way, that's the best pool-chemistry app on the planet, bar none.

>> I cut down trees to burn for firewood myself,
> 
> Kill trees to pollute the atmosphere? Shame.

Well, in my defense, most of them fell down already, and I'm just bucking
them, but some are the California Bay tree, which is a weed out here, and
others are the various California Oaks that get sudden Oak death disease,
and others still are the Monterey Pine trees that die from the bark beetle.

With all that stuff killing trees, we have plenty of wood to buck.

>> I trench for my (off-grid) guerrilla solar setup,
> 
> No solar here. Shame on me. But then my electricity comes from the
> nuclear plant 30 miles away so maybe no shame on me??

Nuclear? Ouch. I love nukes but California is into wind and solar.

We are filthy rich in sunlight. Not so rich in Uranium. NY/NJ has the best
uranium in the country, I'm told (anywhere they have radon problems usually
has good uranium ore). Gotta' love the Laurentian Shield for radioactive
ores.

>> I do my own electrical work, and plumbing repairs,
> 
> No electrical problems yet but I do call the plumber from time to time.

Electrical work and plumbing is easy. The only problem is plumbing takes
bending and crawling. Like when you have to snake the septic system. Yuck.

>> I refill my carbon dioxide sodastream canisters at home, I refill my
>>  one pound propane tanks from my 20 pounders which themselves are
>> filled from my thousand-gallon propane tank,
> 
> Nothing like that here.

It's easy. You buy 10 pounds of dry ice and you pop off the valve of a
10-pound carbon dioxide tank and fill it up and cap it before it sublimes.

Then you leave it outside because it's gonna get frosty and stick to
anything it's touching. Let it warm up outside for a day and now you have
10 pounds of carbon dioxide gas at about 800 psi.

Then flip it upside down and fill up the 1 pound (actually 14 ounces)
sodastream with the liquid carbon dioxide. Easy peasy. Cheap too.

The propane is the same process but you can't flip your 1000 gallon tank so
you let gravity do it for you. But you do flip the 20 pound tank to fill
the 1 pound propane tanks with liquid propane. Same as carbon dioxide.

Easy peasy. 
 
>> I refill the vehicles with gasoline myself at home, my cars are 30
>> years old and I do all the maintenance & repairs, including changing
>>  the tires when they're worn and balancing them at home, etc.
> 
> Love those gas stations down the street. My cars a year old now so all
> repairs are warranty.

My cars are three decades old but they're all repaired by me so I know
their history as I got them new. Gas I get at Costco in 50 gallon
increments and then I fill up the car with my own gas pump at home.
 <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DLDKHL7B>

Or I siphon if I'm lazy. I put the can on top of the car for height.
You don't worry about scratching the paint on a 30-year old vehicle.

>> But my point was that the fact you "can" be tracked is more important
>> than if the person who wants to track you "knows how" to do it
> 
> Of course I can be tracked. I can't think of anyone who would want to
> track me though. It would be very boring for them...

Spouses for some reason are the bogeyman in this thread. Not sure why.
I'm not too worried about my spouse. It's my kids I'm worried about. :)

>> - since they can always hire someone to do that dirty work for them.
> 
> I suppose. Sounds like a bit of paranoia thinking to me though.

Luckily we each have only one spouse (at most) to worry about, right?
And we all know where she is 'cuz we've been tracking her for years. :)


>> If someone is going to track a spouse, I doubt they care if it's
>> legal or not, but I even doubt whether or not it's illegal if no
>> court order is involved. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. Neither are
>>  you I presume. I suspect it's perfectly legal to "track a spouse" as
>>  long as you don't break a law (e.g., violating a court order) in
>> doing so.
> 
> Agreed. A court order is likely needed for a spouse. But hiring someone
> to do the spouse tracking can likely be illegal.

I don't know - as I'm not a lawyer - but I don't think so. I think it's
fine to track anyone you want as long as you use legal means to do so.

Unless there's a court order or a trespassing decree. Did you know that
California has trespassing laws that start from infraction and go to
felony? That's as complicated as the California curb-color laws.

Yellow. White. Green. Blue. Red. Do they really need 5 different colors?

>> The privacy hole is that you "can" be tracked. Not that you "are"
>> tracked, since you will likely never know if you're actually being
>> tracked.
> 
> Agreed. So can you. Go to the doctor? It's online. Pay taxes? It's
> online. Use a credit card? It's online. Have a bank account? It's
> online. Etc etc etc. All available to the computer bad guys (and office
> personnel). And you'll probably never know they're (gasp) looking at it...

Every time some lady in an office tells me she needs my identifying
information and then she says they "protect" it, I give her an earful.

>> It's so easy to add a keylogger to any computing device, it's not
>> funny. Anyone with physical access can do anything to most
>> computers.
> 
> They'd have to break into my house to have access to my toys. If that
> happens I suspect the toys would be gone, not key-logged. And unlike you
> I keep all my home stuff locked (even my phone) with 5 digit pins so as 
> to give me time to change the necessary passwords...

As you know, I have no passwords or pins on my computer devices, but my
kids and wife have them and we all know everyone's code 'cuz it's their
birthday. Ooops. I said too much... 

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#144819

On 12/2/2024 11:51 PM, Andrew wrote:
> AJL wrote on Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:35:41 -0700 :

>> Go to the doctor? It's online. Pay taxes? It's online. Use a credit
>> card? It's online. Have a bank account? It's online. Etc etc etc.
>> All available to the computer bad guys (and office personnel).

> Every time some lady in an office tells me she needs my identifying
> information and then she says they "protect" it, I give her an
> earful.

I doubt you'll get many medical services without the required ID info
given. And if you insist on pissing off the office help, your medical
services efficiency will likely decline. Human nature with office folks.

The only ID I don't give when requested for 'serious' services is my
SS#. I just smile and say I can't remember it. Course that doesn't work
for places like banks, investments, Uncle Sam, etc...

>> They'd have to break into my house to have access to my toys. If
>> that happens I suspect the toys would be gone, not key-logged. And
>> unlike you I keep all my home stuff locked (even my phone) with 5
>> digit pins so as to give me time to change the necessary
>> passwords...

> As you know, I have no passwords or pins on my computer devices,

In one of my prior lives I spent 25 years in law enforcement and
investigated many many burglaries. Lots of computer stuff was taken.
Perhaps that makes me more paranoid (realistic?) than the next guy. And
on a more personal not the guy across the street had all his electronics
removed in a burglary a few years ago.

Add to that that us Google users devices are completely open to Google
apps without a password or pin on the device. With me that includes
Google Drive with lots of personal backup info on it. So that's the
reason I use a pin on all my stuff. In the event of a burglary the plan
is to use a remaining device to change my Google password. Then all my
stolen stuff will no longer have my account and my info will no longer
be available. The same plan works for my phone should I lose it while 
out and about...

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#144742

On 12/2/2024 8:24 AM, AJL wrote:

<snip>

> My wife's iPhone is easy to track from any browser of any device. For
> example I sometimes use this Amazon Fire tablet I'm posting with to check
> on her location when she's late getting home. Course I do have the account
> password since I've always controlled the family electronics. And I suspect
> an abusive spouse could easily do the same thing, no fancy-dancy
> electronics or tracking experience needed...
Yeah, I'm a non-abusive spouse but we have location sharing turned on.

It's been valuable on multiple locations. Once she got lost in a State 
Park and I was able to find her location. Another time her car would not 
start and I could locate her position exactly since the verbal 
instructions were, uh, not very clear. Before she retired she would 
sometimes bike to work and I could get an idea when she'd be home so I 
could have dinner ready.

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#144778

AJL, 2024-12-02 17:24:

> On 12/2/24 1:48 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
[...]
>> Only, if that "abusive spouse" knows how to do the tracking. Without
>> permission no one can just track others people phones. And if the
>> "abusive spouse" works at a telecommunication provider he may have the
>> location without any GPS at all, since the mobile network base stations
>> always know what devices are near them.
> 
> My wife's iPhone is easy to track from any browser of any device. For
[...]

But only because you or your wife have set this up once.

>  example I sometimes use this Amazon Fire tablet I'm posting with to check
>  on her location when she's late getting home. Course I do have the account
>  password since I've always controlled the family electronics. And I suspect
>  an abusive spouse could easily do the same thing, no fancy-dancy
>  electronics or tracking experience needed... 

As I said - one has to know how to do it. If I would have to deal with a
bad ex partner the first thing I would do is to change all my account
passwords and get personal accounts for my own as well.


-- 
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

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#144781

On 12/2/2024 3:52 PM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> AJL, 2024-12-02 17:24:

>> My wife's iPhone is easy to track from any browser of any device.
>> For

> But only because you or your wife have set this up once.

Nope. No setup was required. I just go to my Apple account on any
browser (iCloud.com), sign in, go to Find My Device and a map pops up
showing the location of all her gadgets (iPad, iPhone, and watch).

Course on a new device/browser it does require 2FA. But since I've
already set that up on all my stuff and since Google remembers and
inserts the account name and password, it only takes me a few clicks...

>> example I sometimes use this Amazon Fire tablet I'm posting with to
>> check on her location when she's late getting home. Course I do
>> have the account password since I've always controlled the family
>> electronics. And I suspect an abusive spouse could easily do the
>> same thing, no fancy-dancy electronics or tracking experience
>> needed...

> As I said - one has to know how to do it.

True. But in this case it's super simple and only requires access to the
Apple account in a browser. There are other ways to do it without a
browser of course...

> If I would have to deal with a bad ex partner the first thing I would
> do is to change all my account passwords and get personal accounts
> for my own as well.

And get a good lawyer or everything will get changed back...

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#144677

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> A Useful Android Advantage: GPS Spoofing.
> 
> Yesterday we were driving to San Francisco from Silicon Valley and I 
> told my son to get us on the wait list for a popular restaurant.
> 
> He tried, but the Yelp wait list app uses geofencing and you can't sign 
> up on the wait list unless you're within a certain distance from the 
> restaurant, apparently five miles, and we were about 15 miles away.
> 
> My son has an iPhone. I said to him "well on Android..." and he 
> interrupted me and said, "yes, I know what you're going to say, GPS 
> location spoofing."
> 
> This is the second instance I am aware of where GPS location spoofing 
> would be useful. The other is to try to get a two-day advance permit to 
> hike "The Wave:" "Two days before desired entry– Apply using your phone 
> or other mobile device between 6 AM and 6 PM Utah time two days before 
> the desired entry date on recreation.gov. You must be within the 
> designated geofenced area to apply."

After disabling location in Android settings, the Yelp app might not be
able to know your location.

Or, instead of using an app (a web-centric interface), use your web
browser to connect to the restaurant's web site to make a reservation.
In the web browser, first disable geolocation.  Can be done in Firefox:
about:config -> geo.enabled = false.

I have geolocation disabled in Firefox.  None of a site's business where
I am until *I* choose to tell them.  Well, they can try using my IP
address for regional location, but that's often a huge radius, like 50
miles.

However, if they cannot manage to finagle your geolocation
automatically, they may reject you outright.

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