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Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today

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  Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> - 2024-05-31 17:20 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2024-05-31 14:21 -0700
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-01 12:06 +0100
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 14:18 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 00:00 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-02 08:34 +0100
            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-02 19:45 +0000
              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2024-06-02 16:49 -0400
                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-02 22:39 +0100
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2024-06-02 18:17 -0400
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 12:48 +0100
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2024-06-03 12:16 +1200
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 07:19 +0100
                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@air.isp.spam> - 2024-06-03 12:12 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 14:20 +0200
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-05-31 19:27 -0400
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2024-06-01 18:39 +1200
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 00:03 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-06-02 07:18 +0200
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-06-01 08:05 +0200
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 00:06 -0400
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-06-02 07:05 +0200
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 11:25 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 11:43 +0000
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 08:50 -0400
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 14:24 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 10:37 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> - 2024-06-01 11:11 -0400
            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 13:43 -0400
              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 19:26 +0100
                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-01 20:15 +0100
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-02 00:23 +0100
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 22:37 -0700
                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-02 08:57 -0400
                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-02 19:00 +0100
                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> - 2024-06-02 15:20 -0400
                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-02 20:24 +0100
                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-02 21:44 -0400
                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-03 03:42 +0100
                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 07:17 +0000
                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 08:34 +0100
                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 09:08 +0000
                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 10:36 +0100
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 11:01 +0000
                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 09:32 +0000
                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 10:45 +0100
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 11:10 +0000
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 14:52 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 17:43 +0200
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 18:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 21:03 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 08:58 +0000
                                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 11:45 +0000
                                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 16:11 +0000
                                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 16:53 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-11 17:19 +0200
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 09:08 -0400
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 20:13 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 05:19 +0000
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-11 17:21 +0200
                                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2024-06-11 16:47 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-04 09:55 +0100
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 11:51 +0000
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 17:43 +0200
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 20:42 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 20:53 +0000
                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 08:08 -0400
                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 07:21 +0100
                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 08:13 -0400
                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-04 06:20 +0100
                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 07:19 +0100
                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-04 08:09 -0400
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 13:31 +0100
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-04 08:53 -0400
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 14:22 +0100
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 16:01 +0000
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 17:14 +0100
                                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 16:48 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 18:38 +0100
                                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-05 04:49 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2024-06-04 16:58 -0400
                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-02 22:50 +0100
                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Bill Powell <bill@anarchists.org> - 2024-06-02 19:41 +0200
                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> - 2024-06-02 15:18 -0400
                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Bill Powell <bill@anarchists.org> - 2024-06-02 21:31 +0200
                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 22:28 -0400
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 20:26 -0400
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-02 09:04 +0100
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 16:13 +0100
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 16:25 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2024-06-03 18:08 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 16:14 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 11:56 -0700
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> - 2024-06-02 15:36 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 14:18 +0200

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#141952

On 2024-06-11, Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
> Andrew, 2024-06-04 07:19:
>> Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:13:28 -0000 (UTC) :
>> 
>>> Let's be clear that a subtle portion of my rant against Apple's and
>>> Google's brazen lies as to *why* they're preventing us from turning
>>> off our tracking radios is partly that the morons (who outnumber the
>>> intelligentsia 1000 to 1) are also tracking us - which is easy to
>>> prove with Wi-APs.
>> 
>> I belatedly realized I hadn't backed up that claim, but since only 1
>> out of a million people know this information, here's the backup
>> reference cite.
>
> No - hiding an SSID does *NOTHING* for privacy when you *use* a WiFi
> network! The SSID is *alway* visible for connected devices, even when
> it is "hidden".

Andrew has shown in this thread that he knows very little about how WiFi
actually works. You'll have to excuse him. He's not a serious person -
just a troll.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#141781

Andrew <andrew@spam.net> writes:

> My only goal, really, is to be able to turn that stuff off. 
> That's it. 

What happens if you wrap your phone in tin foil? (seriously). If I put
my phone in a tin it will only ring if wifi calling is enabled.

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#141787

Richmond wrote on Tue, 04 Jun 2024 09:55:02 +0100 :

>> My only goal, really, is to be able to turn that stuff off. 
>> That's it. 
> 
> What happens if you wrap your phone in tin foil? (seriously). If I put
> my phone in a tin it will only ring if wifi calling is enabled.

You're not as stupid as most of the people who posted so I will state that
there are things that *intelligent* people can do to remain private.

While I'm familiar with the concept of a Faraday cage, I'm speaking more
about the kinds of things that I write about in my XDA Developer tutorials.
https://xdaforums.com/m/galaxya325g.11604613/recent-content

The people who are not intelligent, are the ones ridiculing privacy.
It's not difficult to understand why those of the lowest IQ do that.

They don't understand anything, and certainly not privacy.
Don't be like those people.

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#141766

Andy Burns, 2024-06-03 11:45:

> Andrew wrote:
> 
>> My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off bluetooth
>> in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us.
> 
> But do they really make money from knowing where I am?

Yes. Location based services where already a business model before we
had smartphones.

-- 
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

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#141772

Arno Welzel wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 17:43:39 +0200 :

>>> My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off bluetooth
>>> in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us.
>> 
>> But do they really make money from knowing where I am?
> 
> Yes. Location based services where already a business model before we
> had smartphones.

I agree that it's widely known that Google/Apple make money off of tracking
us - which - I posit - is their motive for making it such that they are
suddenly turning radios on that we turned off (and worse - both Apple &
Google are brazenly lying about why they're turning our radios back on).

BTW, as evidence that we're not only tracked by Apple/Google, but we're
also tracked by every moron out there who doesn't know how to set up a
phone (which, let's face it, is 999 out of 1,000 smartphone owners)...

1. Apple just got caught with a severe privacy flaw which allows
   anyone in the world to track your exact movements if they simply
   know a single thing about you - which is your unique MAC address.
   <https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com/hyRmC1x9/surveillance-risk-apple-s-wifi-based-positioning-system>

2. Apple has no plans to fix that extremely invasive privacy flaw, 
   (since Apple makes money on it existing most likely); so what 
   does Apple suggest as the workaround?  
   <https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com/c5ZfZyuW/new-vulnerability-in-apple-s-positioning-service-allows-troop-movements-to-be-tracked>

   Yup. You guessed it. Apple suggests you add "_nomap" to the SSID.

3. Even if 1 out of 1000 people understood that and therefore did it, 
   what Apple doesn't tell you is that only 1 out of a million people
   know that appending "_nomap" doesn't stop the morons out there from
   *uploading* your private information to the Google/Apple databases!
    <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

   Yes. You heard that right.
   If you don't know this, then you're not the 1 out of a million 
   people who are not morons - which is the point of my recent rant.

People are incredibly stupid when it comes to doing what marketing tells
them to do - without even thinking about how it still allows tracking.

The only way (that I know of) to prevent that *upload* of your unique MAC
address into Google's & Apple's tracking databases by the morons who drive
by your house every day is to hide the broadcast of that BSSID package.

Note: Every moron out there who knows that hiding a broadcast for reasons
of security will scream it doesn't help with security - and guess what -
you think I don't know that. I didn't say a word about security. 

I'm talking about privacy.

I don't mind, for example, that the contacts sqlite database is uploaded by
every prole out there who does exactly what marketing tells them to do, as
long as I can operate my phone independently of a contacts sqlite database.
 <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

It's when Google & Apple lie about why they're doing what they're doing,
and at the same time, those lies justify them turning on radios (like your
bluetooth radio) that you explicitly turned off... that gets me upset.

1. Apple/Google make money tracking us
2. As long as I can turn that off, I'm ok with morons led to slaughter
3. It's when Apple/Google turn my radios back on that I get upset
4. Especially when they lie about why they're turning my radios back on

In summary, my rant is that 1 out of a million people understand this
stuff, so most of the millions out there are actually joining with Apple
and with Google to track you every moment of the day everywhere you go.

Again, I accept that fact as long as I can be the one out of a million
people who knows the simple tricks for turning that tracking off.

It's when Apple & Google lie about why they're making tracking harder to
turn off (e.g., bluetooth radios that turn themselves back on) that I get
disturbed.

Let them lead the million sheep out there to slaughter; but not me.

The only two things I ask of Apple/Google in this regard are...
1. If I turn a radio off, I want that radio off until *I* turn it back on.
2. And... Don't lie about why they're turning my radios back on!

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#141773

Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:42:54 -0000 (UTC) :

> I don't mind, for example, that the contacts sqlite database is uploaded by
> every prole out there who does exactly what marketing tells them to do, as
> long as I can operate my phone independently of a contacts sqlite database.
>  <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

Ooops. Wrong reference.

This is the XDA Developers' forum reference to what intelligent people can
do to not upload the contacts of all their kids, friends, family and their
kids, to Apple & Google and developer databases - simply because only one
out of a million people is aware of why every app that can is grabbing your
contacts sqlite database (one obvious solution being to empty it out).

 <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-what-apps-methodology-do-you-use-to-isolate-your-default-android-contacts-sqlite-database-to-make-it-private-export-import-into-dialer.4636385/>

The point is this:
1. I don't mind Apple/Google wanting us to keep all our radios on
2. As long as I can turn them off

What I mind is when they unilaterally turn back on a radio I turned off.
And then both Apple & Google brazenly lie about why they're doing that.

As if we're all stupid.

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#141753

On 6/2/2024 10:42 PM, Peter wrote:

> Google's "Find My Debvice Network" by Stan Brown (4 days ago)
> https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com/5eS53TT8/google-s-find-my-debvice-network
> 
> One relevant post with a cite showing the phones never turn off being this.
> 
>    "thanks to specialized Pixel hardware, Pixel 8 and 8 Pro owners
>     will also be able to find their devices if they're powered off
>     or the battery is dead"
>    <https://blog.google/products/android/android-find-my-device/>
> 

   That's an interesting one. Thanks. It sounds like it could only
be a self-powered transmitter. Or a long-range RFID tag. The
author doesn't explain. He doesn't even call it a feature or a
hardware gizmo. It's an "experience". Experience seems to have
become the established tech jargon for "product". Microsoft uses
the same jargon.

   The tags for items sound like RFID-ish hardware. But RFID is
short-range. I realize now that I have no idea how Apple "cootie
tags" work.

> In that same thread is another cite about bluetooth turning back on.
> 
>   "Android 15 will add a new feature that can automatically turn
>    on Bluetooth the day after you've disabled it.
>    Your phone's Bluetooth radio is used for several key Android features,
>    such as Quick Share and Find My Device.
>    Disabling Bluetooth will slightly improve battery, but the trade-off
>    is that your device won't be able to contribute to Google's Find My
>    Device network."
>   <https://www.androidauthority.com/android-15-bluetooth-auto-on-3431445/>
> 

  That one is vague. It CAN turn back on. You SHOULD be able to disable
it... The author doesn't seem to actually know what he's talking about.
That article seems to explain part of the function, though: Each Android 
phone
talking to others and also calling home. But I thought bluetooth had a
short range, like a few feet. Do you happen to know the range of this 
function?
If it's bluetooth-only then how do people trace the location of things like
stolen power tools kept in storage lockers? (There was an article about
such a case this past week.)

   It's certainly very creepy. Though I suspect that most Apple devotees
see it more like the child who likes to be tucked in at night. Holy Lord
Jobs and the Most Saintly Timmy Cook are watching over them. I suppose
that's how authoritarian regimes get established. Whether it's Trump or 
Hitler,
they succeed because enough people view them as protectors. So Apple
and Google are facing a dual situation. On the one hand, it's a great spying
opportunity. On the other hand, many of their customers actually want this
functionality.

  It's actually reminiscient of 1984. There's an implication that you 
now have
a social duty to be tracked so that your neighbor can find his stolen 
bicycle.
"Mr. Smith? We can't see your cellphone, Mr. Smith. Please turn on 
monitoring
and be identified."

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#141731

Newyana2 wrote:

> If it's really true that phones
> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
> shocking and nonsensical.

To be clear, certain parts of them can remain on while the majority of 
the phone is definitely off.

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#141755

On 6/3/2024 2:21 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Newyana2 wrote:
> 
>> If it's really true that phones
>> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
>> shocking and nonsensical.
> 
> To be clear, certain parts of them can remain on while the majority of 
> the phone is definitely off.

  By which you mean a homing beacon to enable the cootie
tag function? Then again, if there's only a homing beacon
the phones turned off can't function as part of the network
of cootie tag trackers. This has got me curious to look up
how it actually works. The media seem to be specculating as
much as we are.

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#141777

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>> If it's really true that phones
>>> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
>>> shocking and nonsensical.
>> 
>> To be clear, certain parts of them can remain on while the majority of 
>> the phone is definitely off.
> 
>   By which you mean a homing beacon to enable the cootie
> tag function? Then again, if there's only a homing beacon
> the phones turned off can't function as part of the network
> of cootie tag trackers. This has got me curious to look up
> how it actually works. The media seem to be specculating as
> much as we are.

I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without
indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.

It's still tracking even long after you thought you had shut it off.

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#141779

Peter wrote:

> I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without
> indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.

The bluetooth radio will have its own microcontroller (possibly even a 
full ARM CPU) supposedly the main phone CPU will pre-compute encrypted 
FMDN beacon packets before shutting down, which the bluetooth radio will 
then "chant under its breath" until the battery dies, without needing 
the phone O/S to be running

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#141788

On 6/4/2024 2:19 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Peter wrote:
> 
>> I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without
>> indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.
> 
> The bluetooth radio will have its own microcontroller (possibly even a 
> full ARM CPU) supposedly the main phone CPU will pre-compute encrypted 
> FMDN beacon packets before shutting down, which the bluetooth radio will 
> then "chant under its breath" until the battery dies, without needing 
> the phone O/S to be running
> 
     How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
it was at time of shutdown.

    Last week I was reading about how
a carpenter got sick of having his tools stolen, so he put Apple
tags into some of them. He traced them to a storage garage.
(Oddly, the police then found millions of dollars worth of tools
in numerous garages. Apparently the thieves were industrious
but hadn't thought about how to resell their booty.)

   So an Apple tag would be something like an RFID tag, and all
iPhones are enlisted into the tracking system? But a bluetooth
radio seems to have a different kind of function. On the other hand,
a transmission wouldn't need to include location if nearby phones
that pick it up track their own location.... There seems to be
something missing in this story. At any rate, I don't understand
it -- how it all works, what hardware is used, how far from an
active phone a turned-off phone can be and still be picked up,
etc.

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#141789

Newyana2 wrote:

>      How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
> your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
> it was at time of shutdown.

It doesn't transit a location, just an encrypted ID, it's left for 
a.n.other android device which "hears" the transmission to report where 
it was when it heard the ID being transmitted.

That's similar to how Apple SmartTags work, I believe.

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#141790

On 6/4/2024 8:31 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Newyana2 wrote:
> 
>>      How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
>> your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
>> it was at time of shutdown.
> 
> It doesn't transit a location, just an encrypted ID, it's left for 
> a.n.other android device which "hears" the transmission to report where 
> it was when it heard the ID being transmitted.
> 
> That's similar to how Apple SmartTags work, I believe.
> 

   That would make sense. It would be like RFID tags, perhaps
with a battery signal booster. But then it's mysterious how
they can be tracked. The carpenter, for example, set out to find
his tools, following the beacon. But how likely is it that an
iPhone happens to be turned on within yards of that storage
garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting whatever they come
across, and someone with an iPhone happened to walk past
that garage last week?

   It's not critical to know, of course. I'm just curious about how
all of this works. Recently there was a privacy discussion about
TVs communicating. My TVs are not Internet-connected. I find
it "beggars belief" to claim that the TV can and does talk to other
TVs in the neighborhood, eventually calling home with my viewing
habits. On the other hand, stranger things have happened.

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#141794

Newyana2 wrote:

> But how likely is it that an iPhone happens to be turned on within
> yards of that storage garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting
> whatever they come across, and someone with an iPhone happened to
> walk past that garage last week?

Well, it does depend on a certain level of iPhones, and of course if you 
lose something in a place nobody else visits, it'll never get stumbled upon.

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#141798

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> On 6/4/2024 8:31 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Newyana2 wrote:
>> 
>>>      How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
>>> your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
>>> it was at time of shutdown.
>> 
>> It doesn't transit a location, just an encrypted ID, it's left for 
>> a.n.other android device which "hears" the transmission to report where 
>> it was when it heard the ID being transmitted.
>> 
>> That's similar to how Apple SmartTags work, I believe.
>> 
> 
>   That would make sense. It would be like RFID tags, perhaps
> with a battery signal booster. But then it's mysterious how
> they can be tracked. The carpenter, for example, set out to find
> his tools, following the beacon. But how likely is it that an
> iPhone happens to be turned on within yards of that storage
> garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting whatever they come
> across, and someone with an iPhone happened to walk past
> that garage last week?

Correct. This is how it works. The airtag is battery powered and whenever
an apple device (and now google) passes by it logs what it has seen and
where. The mobile device doesn't even need to have a live data connection
as it'll upload its sightings the next time it is online. 

The density of (i) phones is sufficient that even in remote areas - well
maybe not as remote as some parts of the US - a device will be spotted
pretty soon. 

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#141800

Chris wrote:

> The airtag is battery powered and whenever
> an apple device (and now google) passes by it logs what it has seen and
> where. The mobile device doesn't even need to have a live data connection
> as it'll upload its sightings the next time it is online.

I did think the combined "fleet" of iphones and android phones were now 
going to report positions of all tracking devices.

But it seems that they will operate as two isolated sets of devices, 
iphones only reporting "findmy" devices and android phones only 
reporting "findmydevice" devices.

The only functionality they will share is warning of devices that are 
travelling with you, yet separated from their owner (i.e. being used as 
stalking devices).

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#141801

Andy Burns wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 17:14:46 +0100 :

> But it seems that they will operate as two isolated sets of devices, 
> iphones only reporting "findmy" devices and android phones only 
> reporting "findmydevice" devices.
> 
> The only functionality they will share is warning of devices that are 
> travelling with you, yet separated from their owner (i.e. being used as 
> stalking devices).

Thanks for explaining & summarizing as I haven't delved into how they work.

If that's true, then that's a nice summary, as my main concern is simply to
stay out of the databases, so I also appreciate the questions Mayayana has
been asking.

1. iPhones report findmy trackers; Androids report findmydevice trackers.
2. Both warn you when rogue findmy and/or findmydevice trackers are nearby.

The main basic privacy question I'd have is how my phone is reported.
And what I can do on my phone to prevent it from being reported by either.

I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
Any advice there?

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#141806

Andrew wrote:

> I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
> Any advice there?

Not so far, but today I installed nRFConnect

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

to see how many BLE beacons are floating around, so far fairly quiet 
here, one FitBit Versa, one unknown HP device, one Apple iBeacon and a 
Stanley B&D Oven ... none of which are mine.

None of my own devices have shown up.

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#141812

Andy Burns wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 18:38:50 +0100 :

>> I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
>> Any advice there?
> 
> Not so far, but today I installed nRFConnect
> 
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

Thanks for that suggested app, where I had used, in the past, Apple's app.
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apple.trackerdetect>
And I had used AirGuard too, neither of which found anything at my home.
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.seemoo.at_tracking_detection.release>

Yet the Nordic Semiconductor nRF app you suggested found a medical device
which I'm aware of, but which I had not known it had bluetooth capability.
 <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

That medical device didn't show up under the "SCANNER" tab, nor under the
"ADVERTISER" tab of the nRF app, but in the "BONDED" tab of the nRF app.

Looking up what "Bonded" means in this context, using this Google search
 <https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+bonded+mean+for+bluetooth+trackers>

The first hit is this page which explains bonding and pairing of bluetooth.
 <https://technotes.kynetics.com/2018/BLE_Pairing_and_bonding/>

Pairing: process where devices exchange the information necessary to
establish an encrypted connection. It involves authenticating the identity
of the two devices to be paired, encrypting the link, and distributing keys
to allow security to be restarted on a reconnection.

Bonding: process where the information from the pairing process is stored
on the devices, so that the pairing process does not have to be repeated
every time the devices reconnect to each other.

> to see how many BLE beacons are floating around, so far fairly quiet 
> here, one FitBit Versa, one unknown HP device, one Apple iBeacon and a 
> Stanley B&D Oven ... none of which are mine.

I live in the boonies so I wouldn't have expected any bluetooth devices to
show up in my first scan at home, but I'll try this at a local store to see
if it picks up any bluetooth trackers I presume some stores have installed.
 
> None of my own devices have shown up.

I was surprised that the nRF app picked up a bluetooth medical device,
which I recognize by the brand name but which I had no idea had bluetooth.

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