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USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability?

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  USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> - 2017-01-04 17:09 -0500
    Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2017-01-04 16:34 -0600
      Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2017-01-04 16:49 -0600
      Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> - 2017-01-04 19:13 -0500
        Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2017-01-04 21:55 -0600
          Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> - 2017-01-05 10:45 -0500
      Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> - 2017-01-04 19:19 -0500
        Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? AL <45364747@invalid.com> - 2017-01-04 18:40 -0700
        Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2017-01-04 21:28 -0600
          Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> - 2017-01-05 10:48 -0500
    Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-01-05 12:25 +0000
      Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-05 09:49 -0500
        Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-01-05 17:12 +0000
          Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> - 2017-01-05 19:53 +0000
            Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-01-05 22:15 +0000
          Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2017-01-06 00:53 -0500
            Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2017-01-05 23:14 -0800
              Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nobody@NotMyISP.net> - 2017-01-06 16:29 -0500
              Re: USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2017-01-06 20:32 -0500

#37342 — USB Cables & FastCharge 2.0: Compatability?

Going through my rat's nest of micro-USB cables, I find 3 that do not
seem to work with my new FastCharge 2.0 chargers.

The other 8 cables, no problem.... but these three... over-and-over
again and they just don't seem to work.

Can somebody elucidate?

-- 
Pete Cresswell

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#37343

Pete Cresswell <x@y.Invalid> wrote:

> Going through my rat's nest of micro-USB cables, I find 3 that do not
> seem to work with my new FastCharge 2.0 chargers.
> 
> The other 8 cables, no problem.... but these three... over-and-over
> again and they just don't seem to work.
> 
> Can somebody elucidate?

Hopefully you only intermittently do a fast charge, like your phone is
[near] dead and you immediately need to make several calls or a really
long call and need some charge on the battery.  Fast charging heats the
battery which reduces its lifespan.

http://android.stackexchange.com/questions/58961/how-does-fast-charge-work
http://android.stackexchange.com/questions/114340/will-plugging-the-samsung-fast-charger-into-a-outlet-rated-10w-2-1amp-slow-down

Are you using the blue-colored USB3 cables to do a fast charge?

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/159727-how-to-charge-your-smartphone-and-other-usb-devices-as-quickly-as-possible

According to that article, "It is through negotiation that your device
actually decides how much power it wants to draw."  The 1st article
mentions special cables in which the data lines are unconnected (in
trying to force a higher charge rate but by modifying the OS or using an
app to override the defaults).  There can be no negotiation without the
data signaling, so only the power connections are left in the cable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg4jF25AW4c

That talks about how an power-only signaling (AC sensing) USB cable is
created by modifying a regular USB cable.  It disables the data lines.
That means the device cannot negotiate to an appropriate charge rate and
thinks it is connected to an A/C charger that delivers a higher
amperage.  Of course, an A/C-only USB charging cable probably doesn't
bother using a cable with 4 wires (2 data + 2 power) but just 2 wires
(for power), or for economy of manufacture they do use a 4-wire cable
but simply do not solder the data wires to the data pins on the
connector.

Sorry, but "don't work" doesn't say what is happening.  Maybe you meant
that the problematic cables cannot be used for fast-rate charging but
they do work for low-rate charging.

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#37347

And as a side note, Samsung brought back in its variant of Android 6.0
Marshmallow the user-configurable option to disable fast charging due to
its detrimental effect (damage) to the lithium battery from excessive
heat.  Lithium doesn't like heat.  That way with the option enabled,
the user can use any charger, including a fast charger A/C unit, and
still ensure the battery is charged at a proper and safe rate - unless,
of course, the user has the option disabled because they decided they
don't care about battery longevity (they always want fast charging and
can afford to buy new batteries assuming it isn't a waterproof phone
which prevents access to the battery) or the user must immediately get
some juice back into the phone for some very important and immediate
phone calls (but if they do that a lot then they should tote along a
power pack to use that power to extend the usage time).

https://www.sammobile.com/2016/03/17/samsung-brings-back-option-to-disable-fast-charging-on-android-6-0-marshmallow/

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#37349

Per VanguardLH:
>
>Sorry, but "don't work" doesn't say what is happening.  Maybe you meant
>that the problematic cables cannot be used for fast-rate charging but
>they do work for low-rate charging.

Mea Culpa

That is the situation: they work for low-rate, but the android device
does not acknowledge high-rate.   Use a "Good" cable and it does.  Go
back to the "Bad" cable and it does not.
-- 
Pete Cresswell

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#37362

PeteCresswell wrote:

> Per VanguardLH:
>>
>>Sorry, but "don't work" doesn't say what is happening.  Maybe you meant
>>that the problematic cables cannot be used for fast-rate charging but
>>they do work for low-rate charging.
> 
> Mea Culpa
> 
> That is the situation: they work for low-rate, but the android device
> does not acknowledge high-rate.   Use a "Good" cable and it does.  Go
> back to the "Bad" cable and it does not.

Per the info and video given in my prior post, check if the data lines
even exist in the bad cables.  Check if the middle 2 pins in one of the
cable's connectors goes to the same 2 pins on the cable's other
connector.  Then check if the data pins are shorted together. 

I suspect the "good" cables do not have data lines or they are shorted
together.  They might also be USB2 instead of USB3 (blue) cables.  USB2
is .5A max while USB3 is .9A max.  USB-PD ("PD Aware" USB) is spec'ed to
handle 2.1A.  USB-PD cables are charging-only cables because they only
contain the power lines (VBUS and GND).  USB-PD is new but some devices
detect it; that is, there are some PD-aware devices.  USB-PD cable
detection is by having a mechanical mark on the USB A and B connectors
and a special signal on the ID pin for microUSB.

https://doc.xdevs.com/doc/Standards/USB%203.1/usb_31_030215/USB%20Power%20Delivery/USB_PD_R2_0%20V1.0%20-%2020140807.pdf
See section 3.2.

If you have USB-PD aware devices but do not use a USB-PD cable then the
device silently throttles the maximum power to pre-PD levels to provide
safe charging limits (5V and 1.5A max).  Using a non-USBPD certified
cable and pushing 2.1A through it would result in damaging the login
within the cable.  I've heard they can get very hot, melt, and be a
potential fire source.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujaapnnNzsQ

Make damn sure to use the correct cable with a fast charger AND that the
device (your phone) can handle a higher charging rate.

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#37389

Per VanguardLH:
>
>Make damn sure to use the correct cable with a fast charger AND that the
>device (your phone) can handle a higher charging rate.


Ahhhhh!.... Now *that* even I can understand.

Sounds like a trip to Amazon to order some up-to-date cables.
-- 
Pete Cresswell

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#37350

Per VanguardLH:
>Hopefully you only intermittently do a fast charge...

True, dat....   I do 95% of my charging using wireless.

Plug-in is for those times when the phone is unusually low on charge and
I want a usable phone after, for instance, taking a shower and changing
clothes.

Wireless  makes for a lot of heat, but I am assuming it is just from the
inefficiency of inducing current into the in-phone coil and it is not
the battery getting hot.

??
-- 
Pete Cresswell

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#37352

On 1/4/2017 5:19 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

> Wireless  makes for a lot of heat,

Wireless charging actually makes my phone hotter than the fast
charger does. I don't use either anymore.

> but I am assuming it is just from the inefficiency of inducing
> current into the in-phone coil and it is not the battery getting
> hot.

Heat's not good for the phone's internal circuitry either, but if
the phone feels hot the battery's likely also hot.

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#37358

"Pete Cresswell" wrote:

> Wireless  makes for a lot of heat, but I am assuming it is just from the
> inefficiency of inducing current into the in-phone coil and it is not
> the battery getting hot.

Whether you want to argue the heat is generated in the receiver coil
(inside the phone) or in the charger base, just where is the phone
positioned during wireless charging?  Atop the charging base.  Heat is
the enemy of lithium batteries.  Misalignment of the coils (in the
charger base and inside the phone in the receiver) generates heat.  

Don't know what charger base you are using.  Don't know if you are using
a smartphone with an included receiver coil and internal connection or
you bought one to slide inside the case and connect outside to the USB
port.  For the first case, the receiver is pretty much square with the
sides of the phone.  In the second case, who knows how the receiver will
be aligned inside the case after you slide on the back cover.  

Some chargers come with 3 coils to allow for more sloppy alignment of
the phone atop the charger.  Some single coil chargers have either a
light or tone to tell you when you have properly aligned the phone atop
the charger.  In either case, the intent is to increase efficient while
decreasing heat to prevent shortening of the battery's lifespan.

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#37390

Per VanguardLH:
> In either case, the intent is to increase efficient while
>decreasing heat to prevent shortening of the battery's lifespan.

So, contrary to my misguided assumption, heat is the root cause... I was
assuming that the root cause of premature battery failure was the speed
of charging (i.e. how fast the electrons get stuffed into the battery's
storage medium) and that heat was just an innocent bystander.
-- 
Pete Cresswell

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#37383

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.invalid> wrote:
> Going through my rat's nest of micro-USB cables, I find 3 that do not
> seem to work with my new FastCharge 2.0 chargers.
> 
> The other 8 cables, no problem.... but these three... over-and-over
> again and they just don't seem to work.
> 
> Can somebody elucidate?

Some cables are so cheap they barely have any copper in them.
Unfortuntely you can't tell from looking at them, because thick cables are
often heavy on plastic sheath and cheapskate on copper.

Measure the resistance of the power wires - you'll likely find it's higher.
Or cut them in half and inspect - any that way you won't be tempted to use them
again.

Theo
(long learnt the lesson that 'genuine' cables from eBay are no such thing,
and buying decent quality is surprisingly hard)

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#37385

In article <Iom*p74gw@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> (long learnt the lesson that 'genuine' cables from eBay are no such thing,
> and buying decent quality is surprisingly hard)

it's actually very easy if you avoid cheap noname crap, and there are
plenty of quality fully usb-compliant cables on ebay and elsewhere.

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#37393

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <Iom*p74gw@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > (long learnt the lesson that 'genuine' cables from eBay are no such thing,
> > and buying decent quality is surprisingly hard)
> 
> it's actually very easy if you avoid cheap noname crap, and there are
> plenty of quality fully usb-compliant cables on ebay and elsewhere.

I bought some 'genuine Nokia' cables from ebay (about 5 years ago).  They
said Nokia on the outside, but they had only a few strands of hair-thin
copper inside.  The moral is that even cables are worth counterfeiting.

Additionally I had problems with 5m USB cables - put a 3G dongle on the end
and it didn't work, put it on a 2m cable and it did.

At one stage I had to order cables direct from China, because nobody would
say how much copper was in their cables - '20awg' being a good number.

These days there is a much better choice of aftermarket fast charging
cables, and cable voltage drop is a widely recognised as a problem for
charging.  However if you're just buying USB cables, and not 'fast charging
USB cables' (especially at longer lengths) then it's still pot luck as to
what you get.  In particular cables this applies to cables that aren't micro
USB (eg USB extension cables, where 'fast charging' versions don't exist).

Branding is still no protection against counterfeiters if you buy from ebay,
Amazon marketplace or other sellers with no quality control.

Theo

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#37404

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <Iom*p74gw@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
> > <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > (long learnt the lesson that 'genuine' cables from eBay are no such thing,
> > > and buying decent quality is surprisingly hard)
> > 
> > it's actually very easy if you avoid cheap noname crap, and there are
> > plenty of quality fully usb-compliant cables on ebay and elsewhere.
> 
> I bought some 'genuine Nokia' cables from ebay (about 5 years ago).  They
> said Nokia on the outside, but they had only a few strands of hair-thin
> copper inside.  The moral is that even cables are worth counterfeiting.
> 
How do you know that real Nokia cables were/are any better?

-- 
Chris Green
·

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#37418

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> How do you know that real Nokia cables were/are any better?

Because I could charge my Nokia quickly with its supplied cable, but not
with these.

Theo

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#37438

On 05 Jan 2017 17:12:06 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

> Branding is still no protection against counterfeiters if you buy from ebay,
> Amazon marketplace or other sellers with no quality control.

+1 :-) . I can produce, in evidence, a lovely stainless-steel-banded Rolex
Oyster Perpetual Date Just wristwatch, part of a Men's and Women's set,
still keeping perfect time three battery changes later, bought over a
decade ago from a street vendor in Beijing for the princely sum of USD 5.00
the pair.

Good branding, seller with superb quality control (*), despite obviously
counterfeited product :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
---
(*) Swiss Made, it says, between the gem-stones marking the 5, 6, and 7
o'clock positions on the dial :-) . What's a better guarantee of quality?
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

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#37440

On 01/05/2017 09:53 PM, tlvp wrote:
> On 05 Jan 2017 17:12:06 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:
>
>> Branding is still no protection against counterfeiters if you buy from ebay,
>> Amazon marketplace or other sellers with no quality control.
>
> +1 :-) . I can produce, in evidence, a lovely stainless-steel-banded Rolex
> Oyster Perpetual Date Just wristwatch, part of a Men's and Women's set,
> still keeping perfect time three battery changes later, bought over a
> decade ago from a street vendor in Beijing for the princely sum of USD 5.00
> the pair.
>
> Good branding, seller with superb quality control (*), despite obviously
> counterfeited product :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
> ---
> (*) Swiss Made, it says, between the gem-stones marking the 5, 6, and 7
> o'clock positions on the dial :-) . What's a better guarantee of quality?

My son bought some Liev's in Thailand that looked like, were made of 
sturdy denim  and were as well-stitched as the brand they imitated. 
OTOH, we once bought some 128GB microsd cards that were clearly 
defective even though they looked just like the real ones and were 
bought from Amazon (who cheerfully refunded our money).

-- 
Cheers, Bev
    Ride faster, I hear banjo music!

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#37472

On 01/06/2017 02:14 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

>>> Branding is still no protection against counterfeiters if you buy
>>> from ebay,
>>> Amazon marketplace or other sellers with no quality control.
>>
>> +1 :-) . I can produce, in evidence, a lovely stainless-steel-banded
>> Rolex
>> Oyster Perpetual Date Just wristwatch, part of a Men's and Women's set,
>> still keeping perfect time three battery changes later, bought over a
>> decade ago from a street vendor in Beijing for the princely sum of USD
>> 5.00
>> the pair.
>>
>> Good branding, seller with superb quality control (*), despite obviously
>> counterfeited product :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
>> ---
>> (*) Swiss Made, it says, between the gem-stones marking the 5, 6, and 7
>> o'clock positions on the dial :-) . What's a better guarantee of quality?
>
> My son bought some Liev's in Thailand that looked like, were made of
> sturdy denim  and were as well-stitched as the brand they imitated.
> OTOH, we once bought some 128GB microsd cards that were clearly
> defective even though they looked just like the real ones and were
> bought from Amazon (who cheerfully refunded our money).

A few decades ago ago I was told that Sony had discovered that they had 
counterfeit cassette tapes in their own UK warehouse. Someone bought the 
genuine article and returned counterfeits, perhaps?

Perce

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#37489

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 23:14:01 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

> My son bought some Liev's in Thailand that looked like, were made of 
> sturdy denim  and were as well-stitched as the brand they imitated. 
> OTOH, we once bought some 128GB microsd cards that were clearly 
> defective even though they looked just like the real ones and were 
> bought from Amazon (who cheerfully refunded our money).

Everything, from the lowliest cheap knock-off to the priciest real thing,
can turn out defective or otherwise unsatisfactory. The only things that
count then are the vendor's willingness to make it right for you, and the
credit card issuer's readiness to support you should the vendor balk.

But you knew that as well as anyone, I suppose :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

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