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Groups > comp.misc > #3552 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-06-08 06:02 +0000 |
| Last post | 2014-06-13 21:07 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 24 — 15 participants |
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The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-08 06:02 +0000
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-08 10:46 +0300
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card polygonum <rmoudndgers@vrod.co.uk> - 2014-06-08 09:19 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2014-06-08 09:34 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-08 14:11 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-06-08 16:44 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-08 17:01 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2014-06-08 16:44 -0300
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card arnold@skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins) - 2014-06-08 20:04 +0000
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-06-08 20:20 +0000
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-06-09 04:14 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Louis Krupp <lkrupp@nospam.pssw.com.invalid> - 2014-06-09 01:01 -0600
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2014-06-10 15:40 -0300
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-09 19:17 +0200
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-06-09 04:09 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-09 10:39 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-06-09 10:15 +0000
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-09 13:45 +0300
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-06-09 13:38 +0000
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card mick <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-13 08:09 +0000
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-06-13 09:45 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-13 10:18 +0000
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-06-13 14:29 +0100
Re: The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-06-13 21:07 +0000
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| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 06:02 +0000 |
| Subject | The Tyranny of the Hollerith Punched Card |
| Message-ID | <ln0ua6$ajo$1@dont-email.me> |
http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny
...
"Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand
years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal
window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I
thought so. Most people's are. And lots of coding standards in lots
of organizations mandate this. For example, here is an excerpt from
the Linux kernel coding style:"
"The limit on the length of lines is 80 columns and this is a
strongly preferred limit."
"Statements longer than 80 columns will be broken into sensible
chunks. Descendants are always substantially shorter than the
parent and are placed substantially to the right. The same
applies to function headers with a long argument list. Long
strings are as well broken into shorter strings. The only
exception to this is where exceeding 80 columns significantly
increases readability and does not hide information."
"Granted, the Linux folks give one an escape hatch for when it would
be really problematic. But still ask yourself: why? Why 80 columns?
Why not 100, or 120, or 60?"
...
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 10:46 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87d2ej3ksz.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #3552 |
Rich <rich@example.invalid>:
> "Granted, the Linux folks give one an escape hatch for when it would
> be really problematic. But still ask yourself: why? Why 80 columns?
> Why not 100, or 120, or 60?"
My screen is usually divided up as follows:
+----------------------+--------+
| | |
| | |
| web browser | editor |
| | |
| | |
| | |
+----------------------+--------+
or:
+--------+----+--------+--------+
| ter- | | | |
| minal | | | |
+--------+ | editor | editor |
+--------+ | | |
| ter- | | | |
| minal | | | |
+--------+----+--------+--------+
That's made possible by the 80-column limit.
In a word, I like it and meticulously enforce it in my code.
Marko
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| From | polygonum <rmoudndgers@vrod.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 09:19 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <bvikk2F794cU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #3552 |
On 08/06/2014 07:02, Rich wrote: > http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny > > ... > > "Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand > years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal > window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I > thought so. Most people's are. And lots of coding standards in lots > of organizations mandate this. For example, here is an excerpt from > the Linux kernel coding style:" > > "The limit on the length of lines is 80 columns and this is a > strongly preferred limit." > > "Statements longer than 80 columns will be broken into sensible > chunks. Descendants are always substantially shorter than the > parent and are placed substantially to the right. The same > applies to function headers with a long argument list. Long > strings are as well broken into shorter strings. The only > exception to this is where exceeding 80 columns significantly > increases readability and does not hide information." > > "Granted, the Linux folks give one an escape hatch for when it would > be really problematic. But still ask yourself: why? Why 80 columns? > Why not 100, or 120, or 60?" > > ... > However, when real punched cards were in use, the content was frequently limited to 72 or fewer columns due to use of some columns for things such as sequence number. Cobol used the 1-6 for a line sequence number, 7 as a continuation mark, 8-11 for special purposes and 73 - 80 were for "program name" or other uses. So 80 editable columns already provides a wider area than we used to have. Also, Hollerith himself appears to have used many different column widths. The fundamental issue with using wider displays is when people view them expecting only 80 columns and miss the extra characters. Or find it awkward scrolling their viewer/editor for the exceptions. Or have to re-organise their take on windows to allow for the extra width. -- Rod
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 09:34 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwv38ffol3m.fsf@l1AntVDjLrnP7Td3DQJ8ynzIq3lJMueXf87AxnpFoA.invalid> |
| In reply to | #3552 |
Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
> http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny
[...]
Further, I claim that insistence on these rules, and the ugly and
awkward line breaks they cause, decreases understanding and hinders
accessibility. Visual line breaks in the middle of programming
statements put cognitive load on the reader.
That’s question of how you lay it out, really.
I’d agree that code that does something simple shouldn’t normally have a
line break in it. But if it takes more than 80 columns to do something
simple then I’d argue that there’s a more fundamental problem than a few
unwanted line breaks.
Code that does something nontrivial is likely to be more readable when
spread across several lines than when compressed into a single line.
(When it’s more than a single statement or expression this isn’t
remotely controversial, of course.)
Last time I was in a coding standards meeting the main request was not
that we adopt a particular standard but that we adopt _some_ standard.
(In theory we did so long ago but it’s not always been consistently
followed and it’s currently a good time to re-examine the whole
question.) My colleagues wanted to be able to set up their environments
in a consistent way and then, as far as possible, forget about the whole
issue. Accepting an essentially arbitrary convention frees us to get on
with more productive work.
--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 14:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <080620141411318327%timstreater@greenbee.net> |
| In reply to | #3552 |
In article <ln0ua6$ajo$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote: > http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny > > ... > > "Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand > years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal > window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I > thought so. Most people's are. Mine is close to 200. -- "People don't buy Microsoft for quality, they buy it for compatibility with what Bob in accounting bought last year. Trace it back - they buy Microsoft because the IBM Selectric didn't suck much" - P Seebach, afc
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 16:44 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <0.2a45f5616c4d4b675888.20140608164402BST.87vbsbl83h.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #3559 |
Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes: > In article <ln0ua6$ajo$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid> > wrote: > >> http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny >> >> ... >> >> "Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand >> years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal >> window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I >> thought so. Most people's are. > > Mine is close to 200. Don't you find the long lines hard to read? -- Ben.
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| From | Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 17:01 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <080620141701239854%timstreater@greenbee.net> |
| In reply to | #3561 |
In article <0.2a45f5616c4d4b675888.20140608164402BST.87vbsbl83h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>, Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote: > Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes: > > > In article <ln0ua6$ajo$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid> > > wrote: > > > >> http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny > >> > >> ... > >> > >> "Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand > >> years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal > >> window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I > >> thought so. Most people's are. > > > > Mine is close to 200. > > Don't you find the long lines hard to read? I start most comments at column 80. Lessee now. Yerss, I can get to col 207 if I fullscreen TextWrangler. Having suffered the 80 col cards and then 24 x 80 screen in my yoof, life was slightly improved used Ann Arbor Ambassador terminals which had a 43-line screen mode. Now, even my Terminal windows are 116 cols wide. Plenty of room on screens these days for two such windows (with 4 tabs in each, so 8 login sessions) side-by-side. A 24 x 80 Terminal window is just a joke. -- "If you're not able to ask questions and deal with the answers without feeling that someone has called your intelligence or competence into question, don't ask questions on Usenet where the answers won't be carefully tailored to avoid tripping your hair-trigger insecurities." - D M Procida, UCSM
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| From | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 16:44 -0300 |
| Message-ID | <87a99ndw50.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere> |
| In reply to | #3565 |
For a few years in the early 90s. I had a DecWriter II rescued from a junk heap. It printed 132 columns. I found it useful for printing ASCII charts and diagrams, e.g. the ASCII map of BITNET amd a tediously generated chart of connections in an on-line (at that time, on-BBS) game. For my still-4:3-CRT displays, 80 columns of fixed-width fonts is useful, predictable and non-annoying. Eventually, of course, I'll have a wide flat-screen but then I'll be able to fit two easy-to-read xterms or Emacsen on one screen. And for misty nostalgia, I have a line editor that displays an 80 col card, punches holes as I type, collects virtual chad at the bottom of the screen, slides new cards on from the right and saves the text. Fully functional including removing cards and inserting new ones in mid-deck. Made it just to show the young 'uns what Real Computing used to was. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| From | arnold@skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 20:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ln2fki$lfn$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #3569 |
In article <87a99ndw50.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere>, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: >And for misty nostalgia, I have a line editor that displays an 80 col >card, punches holes as I type, collects virtual chad at the bottom of >the screen, slides new cards on from the right and saves the >text. Fully functional including removing cards and inserting new ones >in mid-deck. Made it just to show the young 'uns what Real Computing >used to was. That sounds cool. How can I get a copy? Please email me offline. -- Aharon (Arnold) Robbins arnold AT skeeve DOT com P.O. Box 354 Home Phone: +972 8 979-0381 Nof Ayalon D.N. Shimshon 9978500 ISRAEL
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| From | Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-08 20:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <bvjusrFg1v5U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #3571 |
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 20:04:34 +0000, Aharon Robbins wrote: > In article <87a99ndw50.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere>, > Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: >>And for misty nostalgia, I have a line editor that displays an 80 col >>card, punches holes as I type, collects virtual chad at the bottom of >>the screen, slides new cards on from the right and saves the text. Fully >>functional including removing cards and inserting new ones in mid-deck. >>Made it just to show the young 'uns what Real Computing used to was. > > That sounds cool. How can I get a copy? Please email me offline. Same here. Would love to show my students. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 04:14 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <0.61142a5a7e2341c8b9c8.20140609041413BST.87wqcqixkq.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #3572 |
Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> writes: > On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 20:04:34 +0000, Aharon Robbins wrote: > >> In article <87a99ndw50.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere>, >> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: >>>And for misty nostalgia, I have a line editor that displays an 80 col >>>card, punches holes as I type, collects virtual chad at the bottom of >>>the screen, slides new cards on from the right and saves the text. Fully >>>functional including removing cards and inserting new ones in mid-deck. >>>Made it just to show the young 'uns what Real Computing used to was. >> >> That sounds cool. How can I get a copy? Please email me offline. > > Same here. Would love to show my students. There's also this sort of thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaVwzYN6BP4 -- Ben.
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| From | Louis Krupp <lkrupp@nospam.pssw.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 01:01 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <kqmap9pa1cqb487tfpujlqf828kb1mk8re@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #3569 |
On 08 Jun 2014 16:44:11 -0300, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: >And for misty nostalgia, I have a line editor that displays an 80 col >card, punches holes as I type, collects virtual chad at the bottom of >the screen, slides new cards on from the right and saves the >text. Fully functional including removing cards and inserting new ones >in mid-deck. Made it just to show the young 'uns what Real Computing >used to was. Please, may I have one, too? Assuming you have the source, would it be possible to put it on Google Drive? Louis
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| From | Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-10 15:40 -0300 |
| Message-ID | <87a99k8v5z.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere> |
| In reply to | #3581 |
Louis Krupp <lkrupp@nospam.pssw.com.invalid> writes: > On 08 Jun 2014 16:44:11 -0300, Mike Spencer > <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: > >> And for misty nostalgia, I have a line editor that displays an 80 >> col card, punches holes as I type, collects virtual chad at the >> bottom of the screen, slides new cards on from the right and saves >> the text. Fully functional including removing cards and inserting >> new ones in mid-deck. Made it just to show the young 'uns what >> Real Computing used to was. > > Please, may I have one, too? Check your email. (assuming that demunging of your Usenet addy works). > Assuming you have the source, would it be possible to put it on Google > Drive? Twenty-five years ago, I was telling my friends that they should contrive to get email and Usenet. They all said, "Ewwww, just tooo geeky! I hate computers." One classics scholar even said, "There are maybe 4 people in the world whose opinions I care about. If I hear from the every few months, that's good enough." Now the scholar is teaching an on-line course and the others say, "What? You don't do twitter? No facebook, no on-line shopping or banking, no gmail, no U-tube, no cloud? Whaddya, some kind of Luddite?" No, I don't do Google Drive. :-) -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| From | Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 19:17 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tp6h6b-qd51.ln1@news.chingola.ch> |
| In reply to | #3569 |
On 2014-06-08, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: > > For a few years in the early 90s. I had a DecWriter II rescued from a > junk heap. It printed 132 columns. I found it useful for printing > ASCII charts and diagrams, e.g. the ASCII map of BITNET amd a > tediously generated chart of connections in an on-line (at that time, > on-BBS) game. The line printers of that era also had 132 columns. If you had a DECwriter nearby you could send small reports to that instead of the potentially long treck to the the printer room. A distinct advantage of keeping your source code to 80 columns was that when printed on 132 column paper you had plenty of room to scribble comments, flow charts, or whole chunks of code at the side of the original. > For my still-4:3-CRT displays, 80 columns of fixed-width fonts is > useful, predictable and non-annoying. Eventually, of course, I'll have > a wide flat-screen but then I'll be able to fit two easy-to-read > xterms or Emacsen on one screen. An 80 column limit is still advisable for config files when you want to edit them from a standalone console. On my 22" wide screen I have room for three 80 column terminal windows side by side, and another three below those. I've been using that for several years; if I got a wider screen I'd expand each window to more than 80 columns. I think a bigger case for a wider terminal screen is to avoid line wrapping of commands. Editing a wrapped command can be especially tricky if spaces happen to fall at or near the wrap position. > And for misty nostalgia, I have a line editor that displays an 80 col > card, punches holes as I type, collects virtual chad at the bottom of > the screen, slides new cards on from the right and saves the > text. Fully functional including removing cards and inserting new ones > in mid-deck. Made it just to show the young 'uns what Real Computing > used to was. I'll add my request for a copy of that please. The above email address does work. -- You can't look at a glass as half full or half empty if it's overflowing.
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 04:09 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <0.17c5d1ba219fe01ea16a.20140609040955BST.8738fekccc.fsf@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #3565 |
Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes: > In article > <0.2a45f5616c4d4b675888.20140608164402BST.87vbsbl83h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>, > Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote: > >> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes: >> >> > In article <ln0ua6$ajo$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> "Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand >> >> years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal >> >> window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I >> >> thought so. Most people's are. >> > >> > Mine is close to 200. >> >> Don't you find the long lines hard to read? > > I start most comments at column 80. > > Lessee now. Yerss, I can get to col 207 if I fullscreen TextWrangler. I don't follow this. Is it an answer to my question or a more general sort of remark? I was not casting doubt on how wide some editor of yours will go, it's just that I find long lines irritating to read and I wondered if maybe you did not. > Having suffered the 80 col cards and then 24 x 80 screen in my yoof, > life was slightly improved used Ann Arbor Ambassador terminals which > had a 43-line screen mode. > > Now, even my Terminal windows are 116 cols wide. Plenty of room on > screens these days for two such windows (with 4 tabs in each, so 8 > login sessions) side-by-side. Was the "mine is close to 200" just polemic? 116 is closer to 80 than it is to 200. <snip> -- Ben.
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| From | Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 10:39 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <090620141039500293%timstreater@greenbee.net> |
| In reply to | #3579 |
In article <0.17c5d1ba219fe01ea16a.20140609040955BST.8738fekccc.fsf@bsb.me.uk>, Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote: > Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes: > > > In article > > <0.2a45f5616c4d4b675888.20140608164402BST.87vbsbl83h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>, > > Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote: > > > >> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes: > >> > >> > In article <ln0ua6$ajo$1@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny > >> >> "Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand > >> >> years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal > >> >> window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I > >> >> thought so. Most people's are. > >> > > >> > Mine is close to 200. > >> > >> Don't you find the long lines hard to read? You're making a value judgement about what constitutes a long line. I don't find lines of, say 120 or 150 chars long too hard to read, because they've not wrapped. What is hard to read are lines that have wrapped or where the statement should be say 150 chars long, but the coder has set himself an artificial limit of 80. I should also state that for readability I use whitespace generously. > > I start most comments at column 80. By which I meant that, for the most part, my code is limited to the first 80 cols. But if a statement needs to be longer than that, it will be. > > Now, even my Terminal windows are 116 cols wide. Plenty of room on > > screens these days for two such windows (with 4 tabs in each, so 8 > > login sessions) side-by-side. > > Was the "mine is close to 200" just polemic? 116 is closer to 80 than > it is to 200. The OP (or some facsimile thereof) was trying to insist that everyone codes in a text editor window 80 cols wide or uses a Terminal window 80 cols wide. So I gave counter examples. I don't code in Terminal windows, so comparing their width to my editor window width or the width of punched cards is spurious. OTOH, I do use Terminal windows to do things like dump out stuff from SQLite databases, where, if I've asked for a number of columns, having that not wrap is nice. With 116 cols, I can nicely get two such windows on a screen side by side - and as it's in its own space, there is no conflict with having the text editor running permanently in another. -- "Once you adopt the unix paradigm, the variants cease to be a problem - you bitch, of course, but that's because bitching is fun, unlike M$ OS's, where bitching is required to keep your head from exploding." - S Stremler in afc
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| From | RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 10:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ln41fd$8dv$1@solani.org> |
| In reply to | #3552 |
On 2014-06-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote: > > "Granted, the Linux folks give one an escape hatch for when it > would be really problematic. But still ask yourself: why? Why 80 > columns? Why not 100, or 120, or 60?" Fun article, thanks for posting it. It might be the quality of writing, but the author comes across as somehow righteously indignant about the whole thing, which seems funny to me. Obviously, his choice of the word "tyranny" has something to do with it. First of all, 80 chars wasn't just some arbitrary length chosen by prehistoric computer scientists (they predate the title, actually), it was a factor of usability that experience and practice showed worked. As your eye drifts far enough rightward, it becomes hard to track down to the next line, and reasonable, practical people settled on 80 characters because it made sense. When I was using Jedit to write a book manuscript, I too set the line width to 200~ characters, but at other times, like reading email in mutt, I'm happy with 80 character linewidth; it seems more readable to me. So maybe for this user at least, there's a distinction between optimum width for writing and for reading. I've not taken the time to look up the author, but he's probably a youngish programmer. He rails against the character width, and totally misses the line return and new line phenomenon, which is also the legacy of card punchers. As for the "baud rate on an stty" comment, he was clearly born at a time when the magic of serial connections and PPP were handled by software, saving him the time from having to learn. I took the shallowest dive into learning about serial connections and came away with a sense of amazement of how many intricate paramaters have to be advertised, negotiated, and implemented in order to get two gadgets to talk to each other.
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 13:45 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87oay2s6od.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #3584 |
RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:
> When I was using Jedit to write a book manuscript, I too set the line
> width to 200~ characters, but at other times, like reading email in
> mutt, I'm happy with 80 character linewidth; it seems more readable to
> me. So maybe for this user at least, there's a distinction between
> optimum width for writing and for reading.
Also, what a waste of screen real estate when your code looks like this:
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| : |
| ::: : |
| :: |
|: |
| |
|:: :: ::::::::: ::::::: :::: ::::::: :::::: ::: ::: |
|: |
| :: |
| :::: |
| |
| ::: |
|: |
| |
|:: ::: |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
Marko
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| From | RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-09 13:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ln4ddj$ocb$2@solani.org> |
| In reply to | #3586 |
On 2014-06-09, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>: > >> When I was using Jedit to write a book manuscript, I too set the line >> width to 200~ characters, but at other times, like reading email in >> mutt, I'm happy with 80 character linewidth; it seems more readable >> to me. So maybe for this user at least, there's a distinction between >> optimum width for writing and for reading. > > Also, what a waste of screen real estate when your code looks like > this: > +------------------------------------------------------------+ > | : | > | ::: : | > | :: | > |: | > | | > |:: :: ::::::::: ::::::: :::: ::::::: :::::: ::: ::: | > |: | > | :: | > | :::: | > | | > | ::: | > |: | > | | > |:: ::: | > +------------------------------------------------------------+ > > Marko Good point. When writing I frequently reorient my 1440x900 display vertically. I infrequently want wider screens, but I find it tremendously useful to be able to see more of a 'page' (etc) as possible.
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| From | mick <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-13 08:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <539ab1d6$0$47847$c3e8da3$5d8fb80f@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #3552 |
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:02:46 +0000, Rich wrote: > http://pub.gajendra.net/2012/09/hollerith_tyranny > > ... > > "Now fast-forward to the 21st century; a mere couple of thousand > years after Caesar. Look at your screen. How wide is your terminal > window or the text window of your editor? 80 columns? Yeah, I > thought so. Most people's are. And lots of coding standards in lots > of organizations mandate this. For example, here is an excerpt from > the Linux kernel coding style:" > <snip> I always thought it was a limit of the video generation on the monitors at the time. Using a 640x480 display, 80 columns allows for 8 dots per row on each character, allowing for nice easy dot generation in the video circuitry. Higher resolution displays are more recent but will, of course, handle more characters per line as there are more dots.
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