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Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones

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  Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 13:42 +0000
    Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones wjwlsn <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 10:11 +0000
      Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones invis <invis@invis.net> - 2014-02-13 17:12 +0000
        Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones wjwlsn <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 12:44 +0000
          Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-14 11:09 +0000
            Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones invis <invis@invis.net> - 2014-02-14 11:19 +0000
              Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-14 12:35 +0000
            Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-14 12:30 +0000
            Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 16:26 +0200
              Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-14 14:58 +0000
              Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-14 14:59 +0000
                Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 18:45 +0200
                  Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-14 19:00 +0100
                Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-14 18:17 +0100
                  Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 09:26 -0500
                    Re: Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-15 20:24 +0100

#375 — Microsof Considering Making Android Aps Run on Windows 'Phones

 The Verge reported this "http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/12/5404098/
microsoft-considering-android-apps-on-windows" and it was followed up by 
"http://fossforce.com/2014/02/microsoft-considering-windroid/".

 I see FossForce as being right about the Android Aps issue...in short 
the aps would run poorly on a non-native platform, open MS to patent 
litigation and be an admission that their platform can't attract 
developers sufficiently well to be able to rely upon native aps. I don't 
accept their case regarding FirefoxOS Aps...briefly that as these as HTML
% merely having a fully HTML5 compliant browser would enable portage and 
thus give parity with FirefoxOS.

 Firstly when have we seen a Microsoft browser be fully standards 
compliant? Is it even likely that Redmond would construct one for their 
'phone platform without that being partnered by development on I.E. and 
would they ever be willing to have I.E. be fully standards compliant?

 Secondly given that FirefoxOS is stated as being aimed at low to mid 
tier devices and is attractive to manufacturers who offer value products 
that aren't likely to push any technological boundaries is Microsoft 
likely to be able to compete in such a commodity, price dominated, 
marketplace? Being compared to FirefoxOS is not likely to reflect well on 
a Redmond flagship product.

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#382

>  I see FossForce as being right about the Android Aps issue...in short
> the aps would run poorly on a non-native platform, open MS to patent
> litigation and be an admission that their platform can't attract
> developers sufficiently well to be able to rely upon native aps. I don't
> accept their case regarding FirefoxOS Aps...briefly that as these as HTML
> % merely having a fully HTML5 compliant browser would enable portage and
> thus give parity with FirefoxOS.

Blackberry added an Android subsystem to the Playbook OS and BB10. I'm not sure how current or complete the subsystem is relative to a real Android, but apps that have been offered through official channels (BlackberryWorld store) tend to run at close to native speed. Such "official" apps have generally been modified by the original developer using tools provide
d by Blackberry and packaged as Blackberry BAR files, not Android apk packages. There is no official method available to use any Android store, or to sideload apk files directly. (There are unofficial means to convert apk to BAR without modifying code, but the process of conversion and sideloading is unwieldy and the results can be disappointing... although you 
can occasionally be pleasantly surprised.)

Now bringing this back to Microsoft and Windows Phone... how quickly could MS implement an Android subsystem or compatibility layer? Maybe pretty quickly if they had somewhere to start other than from scratch. For instance, what if they could adapt the Android subsystem that Blackberry developed? The two companies have partnered before on a variety of projects b
efore, such as integration of Exchange and SharePoint with the Blackberry messaging platform. Blackberry's Android subsystem might be just what Microsoft needs to jumpstart this initiative.

The big question here is whether this would be a good move for Microsoft in the long run. It would get them a lot of apps pretty quickly, but the developers that would go to the trouble to do this at first are largely going to be those that have not had best-in-class apps on Android. Many prominent developers won't bother because the market is too small relative
 to what they're already making on Android. Finally, the worst thing for Microsoft would be developers dropping Windows Phone native app development in favour of Android; why limit yourself (or go to the trouble) when you can get to both markets (and to Blackberry too) by developing only for Android?

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#384

On 13/02/2014 14:11, wjwlsn wrote:
> There is no official method available to use any Android
> store, or to sideload apk files directly. (There are unofficial means to
> convert apk to BAR without modifying code, but the process of conversion
> and sideloading is unwieldy and the results can be disappointing...
> although you can occasionally be pleasantly surprised.)

This is no longer true as of 10.2.1 - see
"http://crackberry.com/best-places-find-android-apps-blackberry".

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#385

> On 13/02/2014 14:11, wjwlsn wrote:
>> There is no official method available to use any Android
>> store, or to sideload apk files directly. (There are unofficial means to
>> convert apk to BAR without modifying code, but the process of conversion
>> and sideloading is unwieldy and the results can be disappointing...
>> although you can occasionally be pleasantly surprised.)
>
> This is no longer true as of 10.2.1 - see
> "http://crackberry.com/best-places-find-android-apps-blackberry".
>
>

Whoa! Thanks for that. I kind of stopped following up on Blackberry several months ago, and I haven't bothered to update my Q10 since then either. This is kind of great news, although it still makes me wonder how easy availability of Android apps will affect native development over the long run. (I'm still not totally convinced that there is a long run for Black
berry's future, but I hope there is... nothing else even comes close for the fluid UI experience.)

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#399

wjwlsn wrote:
>> On 13/02/2014 14:11, wjwlsn wrote:
>>> There is no official method available to use any Android
>>> store, or to sideload apk files directly. (There are unofficial means to
>>> convert apk to BAR without modifying code, but the process of conversion
>>> and sideloading is unwieldy and the results can be disappointing...
>>> although you can occasionally be pleasantly surprised.)
>>
>> This is no longer true as of 10.2.1 - see
>> "http://crackberry.com/best-places-find-android-apps-blackberry".
>>
>>
>
> Whoa! Thanks for that. I kind of stopped following up on Blackberry
> several months ago, and I haven't bothered to update my Q10 since then
> either. This is kind of great news, although it still makes me wonder
> how easy availability of Android apps will affect native development
> over the long run. (I'm still not totally convinced that there is a long
> run for Black
> berry's future, but I hope there is... nothing else even comes close for
> the fluid UI experience.)
>

I've got a mandatory Blackberry for work, and while it's cool to bash BB 
these days, I still like the hardware very much (and I very much miss 
the old jog-wheel interface).  BB made a lot of mistakes, their 
strategic leadership was garbage, and they're paying big time for it.  I 
much prefer the Android ecosystem of apps, but now that I know I can run 
Android apps on BB I might well try a keyboard BB again.  Their hardware 
is awesome, I think, and I'm not a huge fan of the candybar form factor 
that is so ubiquitous these days.

As for Windows Phones, good luck, gentlemen, you are really having a 
hard time digging your way out of that hole.  (with the exception of 
Scandinavia, I'm told, where Winphones sell somewhat well).  I hardly 
ever see them anywhere else.

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#402

On 14/02/2014 11:09, RS Wood wrote:
> I've got a mandatory Blackberry for work, and while it's cool to bash BB
> these days, I still like the hardware very much (and I very much miss
> the old jog-wheel interface).  BB made a lot of mistakes, their
> strategic leadership was garbage, and they're paying big time for it.  I
> much prefer the Android ecosystem of apps, but now that I know I can run
> Android apps on BB I might well try a keyboard BB again.  Their hardware
> is awesome, I think, and I'm not a huge fan of the candybar form factor
> that is so ubiquitous these days.

Looks like it might get even more awesome later this year:
"http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/127232-blackberry-64-bit-octa-core-phone-coming-this-september-not-2015-says-source"

Assuming they don't do something stupid with the rest of the spec, like
no microSD or replaceable battery, that could well be my next phone. I'm
really not interested in any of the "me too"-style Android ones
available now.

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#407

 Recently the Chinese manufacturers have been attempting to ratify 
connector standards for 'phone internals with the intention being for 
them to offer something more akin to a desktop computer. Say you want to 
upgrade the wireless connectivity...unplug the old module...buy a higher 
spec. module and plug that in. The camera would be an obvious upgrade 
option and so on. I suspect that waterproofing would suffer in such 
devices and the initial cost would be higher  but it's an interesting 
option...maybe not for your next 'phone but how about the one after the 
one after that?

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#406

As regards the keyboard the lack of same is one of my biggest gripes with 
other cellphones. I am a rather large person (not just fat, though I'm 
far from immune, but tall and heavily built) so my fingers are far from 
small and I struggle with small keys on anything. Touch screens (I call 
them smear screens) lead me into near unusability...just can't accurately 
select anything.

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#411

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:

> As for Windows Phones, good luck, gentlemen, you are really having a
> hard time digging your way out of that hole.  (with the exception of
> Scandinavia, I'm told, where Winphones sell somewhat well).  I hardly
> ever see them anywhere else.

What is the problem with Windows Phone? I happen to own a WP8 phone, and
it's not perfect by any means, but why would I need anybody else to own
one?


Marko

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#413

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> RS Wood<rsw@therandymon.com>:
>
>> As for Windows Phones, good luck, gentlemen, you are really having a
>> hard time digging your way out of that hole.  (with the exception of
>> Scandinavia, I'm told, where Winphones sell somewhat well).  I hardly
>> ever see them anywhere else.
>
> What is the problem with Windows Phone? I happen to own a WP8 phone, and
> it's not perfect by any means, but why would I need anybody else to own
> one?
>
>
> Marko

I've never used one, and those who have seem to like them.  The only 
"problem" per se is for management, not for users, and that is that 
Winphone's marketshare is so low they're hard to even spot on the graph. 
  That's all.

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#414

I'm not a real cellphone aficionado but even from the perspective of a 
non player I have seen enough to point out some glaring deficiencies.

1) Paucity of aps...the marketplace for ap developers to sell into is 
less on the WP platform than on competing platforms so developers, 
naturally, gravitate to where the users already are.

2) Porting existing aps created for other platforms can be a pain.

3) Breakage of aps due to OS upgrades on the WP platform is often both 
more prevalent and worse, in damage done terms, than on other platforms 
necessitating more developer time spent fixing them and all for a 
platform that is not attractive due to lack of users.

...Now let's look at the platform itself (friend sitting next to me 
prompting me with details BTW)...

4) WP implementation of GPS navigation is poor when compared to other 
platforms i.e. 

ios or Android>hold down button>directions to/navigate to>place you want 
to go>done!

WP hold down home button>place to go>tap on location in Bing search>tap 
"drive" button. BTW that, I'm told, only works on a Nokia that has turn 
by turn enabled or if you install some ap or other but, I'm told, that 
these may or may not exist yet.

5) I.E. is just horrible on any platform....case in poiunt on WP it could 
use a forward button couldn't it! The difficulty of getting it to use a 
new search engine is another annoyance. Much of the Internet isn't well 
configured for WP...not WP's fault but a fact all the same.

6) Those who rely upon Google services (not me...a link I intentionally 
broke some time back) are poorly served by WP which tens to buckle on 
such sites.

7) Notifications are not nearly as well done as on other 
platforms...Microsoft claim to have run out of time on these systems 
"http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/1/3587864/windows-phone-8-notification-
center"

 That's just a list from someone who isn't a 'phone junkie...a 'phone 
junkie could probably give a far, far more extensive list!

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#417

True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk>:

> 1) Paucity of aps...the marketplace for ap developers to sell into is
> less on the WP platform than on competing platforms so developers,
> naturally, gravitate to where the users already are.

Some other family members have iPhones, but I haven't noticed any
difference between app availability.

The timer app I have gotten for WP8 is annoying in many respects, but it
could be because of the limitations of the platform.

> 4) WP implementation of GPS navigation is poor when compared to other 
> platforms i.e. 
>
> ios or Android>hold down button>directions to/navigate to>place you want 
> to go>done!

My Lumia 620 GPS is flawless (apart from voice navigation: the English
voice insists on mispronouncing foreign-language street names instead of
just skipping them).

My coworker's Nexus 5, on the other hand, is an utter failure at GPS.

> 5) I.E. is just horrible on any platform....case in poiunt on WP it
> could use a forward button couldn't it! The difficulty of getting it
> to use a new search engine is another annoyance. Much of the Internet
> isn't well configured for WP...not WP's fault but a fact all the same.

The browser hasn't been a problem for me.

> 6) Those who rely upon Google services (not me...a link I
> intentionally broke some time back) are poorly served by WP which tens
> to buckle on such sites.

One of the main reasons for choosing a WP was so I wouldn't be forced to
sign up with Google. I use Google for search but that's where it should
stay.

> 7) Notifications are not nearly as well done as on other 
> platforms...

I'll give you that. Notifications don't exist on WP8.

> That's just a list from someone who isn't a 'phone junkie...a 'phone
> junkie could probably give a far, far more extensive list!

I have others (including HW issues):

 * Hard to receive calls. The Lumia 620 touchscreen is turned on but
   unresponsive when you take it out from the pocket. The workaround is
   to turn the screen off and on again to wake it up.

 * Hard to end calls. If you have changed apps/screens during a phone
   call, you don't have a simple access to the "end call" button. In
   practice you have to wait for the peer to hang up first.

 * The platform sandboxes apps tightly. So I can't use the Python3 app
   to script my own music player or display photos.

 * The stopwatch app won't stay in the foreground but the screen is
   blacked out after a few seconds.

 * The timer app alarms up to a minute ahead of time probably because of
   a platform limitation.

 * Microsoft mirrors my info (e.g. address book) from the phone onto
   their cloud service.

 * The Lumia 620 touchscreen fails completely in freezing temperatures,
   No way to call the ambulance when you are stranded in a blizzard.

 * The touchscreen takes random input from the root of your thumb when
   you hold it naturally.

 * You can't mount the memory card as a regular USB disk. At least, you
   can get the SSD disk out of the Lumia 620.

 * Apps occasionally hang the phone. A warm reset is needed.

On the positive side:

 * Tethering works fine and is well thought out.

 * The flashlight app is great.

 * Locating the phone works great. The alarm sound is much louder than
   on the iPhone.

 * Gestures work nicely once you find out how they work (which was not
   easy).

Anyway, these issues have little to do with how many other people own a
Windows phone.


Marko

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#421

On 2014-02-14, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk>:
>
> 7) Notifications are not nearly as well done as on other 
>> platforms...
>
> I'll give you that. Notifications don't exist on WP8.
>
>> That's just a list from someone who isn't a 'phone junkie...a 'phone
>> junkie could probably give a far, far more extensive list!
>
> I have others (including HW issues):
>
>  * Hard to receive calls. The Lumia 620 touchscreen is turned on but
>    unresponsive when you take it out from the pocket. The workaround is
>    to turn the screen off and on again to wake it up.
>
>  * Hard to end calls. If you have changed apps/screens during a phone
>    call, you don't have a simple access to the "end call" button. In
>    practice you have to wait for the peer to hang up first.

I didn't see these issues (at least not on a regular base, maybe it
occured occassionally and slipped my mind). I had an 820, 920 and now 
1020 (test devices :-))

>  * The platform sandboxes apps tightly. So I can't use the Python3 app
>    to script my own music player or display photos.

Yes; probably it would be possible for the python app to require permition
to the media library?

>  * Microsoft mirrors my info (e.g. address book) from the phone onto
>    their cloud service.

This was one of the main points that bugged me in the beginning as well.
I found two workarounds for me: 

1. I added an account to a non-existing exchange-server ("localhost" :-)).
New contacts, appointments etc. can be added to this account, and will
never be synchronized to the live account. This is the simple solution.

2. I set up a Zarafa server at home and configured it. (No cost, only self
signed certificates, either via WLAN and local IP or via dyndns 
and public IP)

http://trollinger.blog.com/2012/09/25/own-your-data-with-windows-phone-device/

>  * The Lumia 620 touchscreen fails completely in freezing temperatures,
>    No way to call the ambulance when you are stranded in a blizzard.
>

Didn't notice that with my phones, but didn't keep them in the cold open

>  * The touchscreen takes random input from the root of your thumb when
>    you hold it naturally.

Had a similar effect when phone was in my pocket...

>  * You can't mount the memory card as a regular USB disk. At least, you
>    can get the SSD disk out of the Lumia 620.

And you can connect via MTP, so you get the photos and music synched 
with your Linux-PC :-)


-- 
Trolling is a art!

My public-key is available on http://tinyurl.com/ps9r99y

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#420

On 2014-02-14, True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm not a real cellphone aficionado but even from the perspective of a 
> non player I have seen enough to point out some glaring deficiencies.
>
> 1) Paucity of aps...the marketplace for ap developers to sell into is 
> less on the WP platform than on competing platforms so developers, 
> naturally, gravitate to where the users already are.

Probably this is the reason why MS forced the tile based home screen
on desktop/tablet users: Even though the APIs are not entirely the 
same, it should be easy to implement apps for desktop and WP. Also
I heared that in future versions WP and W will be further aligned.

> 3) Breakage of aps due to OS upgrades on the WP platform is often both 
> more prevalent and worse, in damage done terms, than on other platforms 
> necessitating more developer time spent fixing them and all for a 
> platform that is not attractive due to lack of users.

AFAIK, this was mainly a problem between WP7.x and WP8(.x). The reason 
being, that WP7 was basically still W ME under the hood. WP8 deos not 
have all the same APIs as W8, but the kernel is the same.

> 4) WP implementation of GPS navigation is poor when compared to other 
> platforms i.e. 
>
> ios or Android>hold down button>directions to/navigate to>place you want 
> to go>done!
>
> WP hold down home button>place to go>tap on location in Bing search>tap 
> "drive" button. BTW that, I'm told, only works on a Nokia that has turn 
> by turn enabled or if you install some ap or other but, I'm told, that 
> these may or may not exist yet.

1. Nokia has afaik 92% market share in WP8 devices. So I will focus on 
their devices. (Also because I work for Nokia/HERE ;-))

2. The point you make is just the interface to start navigation. Once it
is started, it has the advantage of working entirely offline; I usually
need navigation when I'm abroad, not at home, so this is a big point for
me.

3. The map data is quite good. Navteq is owned by Nokia, and there is
a reason they have approximately 80% marketshare in in-car navigation
systems. Google has good data as well in many western countries, but
Apple is far behind.

> 5) I.E. is just horrible on any platfor

Agreed.

> 6) Those who rely upon Google services (not me...a link I intentionally 
> broke some time back) are poorly served by WP which tens to buckle on 
> such sites.

While MS services might be better integrated in WP (Exchange, Skype, 
OneNote, ...)

> 7) Notifications are not nearly as well done as on other 
> platforms...Microsoft claim to have run out of time on these systems 
> "http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/1/3587864/windows-phone-8-notification-
> center"

I didn't see any problems as a WP8 user.

BTW: The Nokia/Lumia Cameras are awesome. Just search on Flickr for 
Lumia 1020 pictures, or on Youtube for Videos shot with Lumia 920.
Sound and image are great.

(Yes, I did mention I work for Nokia. But I work for the part not
purchased by MS, and even though the deal is not yet completed I don't
feel in any way bound to praise the phones. The points I made are my
honest opinion, although I really look forward to get a budget Android
device capable of running Sailfish OS :-))


-- 
Trolling is a art!

My public-key is available on http://tinyurl.com/ps9r99y

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#435

On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 18:17:12 +0100, "q.kontinuum"
<achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2014-02-14, True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> I'm not a real cellphone aficionado but even from the perspective of a 
>> non player I have seen enough to point out some glaring deficiencies.
>>
>> 1) Paucity of aps...the marketplace for ap developers to sell into is 
>> less on the WP platform than on competing platforms so developers, 
>> naturally, gravitate to where the users already are.
>
>Probably this is the reason why MS forced the tile based home screen
>on desktop/tablet users: Even though the APIs are not entirely the 
>same, it should be easy to implement apps for desktop and WP. Also
>I heared that in future versions WP and W will be further aligned.
>
Except instead of encouraging developers to make apps that run on both
Win8 and Winphones (thus attracting customers to the latter), they
have driven their audience away from Windows. Good job ;-)

Honestly, on a technical front I have little issue with Winphones but
that garish, awful interface drives me away. It might be functional
but it LOOKS terrible, with an awful collision of colors. 

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#442

On 2014-02-15, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 18:17:12 +0100, "q.kontinuum"
><achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Except instead of encouraging developers to make apps that run on both
> Win8 and Winphones (thus attracting customers to the latter), they
> have driven their audience away from Windows. Good job ;-)
>
> Honestly, on a technical front I have little issue with Winphones but
> that garish, awful interface drives me away. It might be functional
> but it LOOKS terrible, with an awful collision of colors. 

For me it's different way around. I like the interface much more than 
Android. On the technical front, I miss the possibilities of an 
accessible file system: E.g. I'd like to be able to download an email
attachement (PDF for hotel booking or plane ticket), an mp3 from a 
website (yes, there are legal sources, e.g. there is a nice web-cast
I now download on PC. I miss these things rarely, but when I do, 
painfully. I seriously hope that the alignment between W 
and WP will fix these issues. 

Br,
Elvis 

-- 
Trolling is a art!

My public-key is available on http://tinyurl.com/ps9r99y

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