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GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added

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  GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-11 21:36 +0000
    Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-12 11:24 +0000
      Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-12 13:59 +0000
        Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added wjwlsn <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 08:30 -0800
          Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added TrueSatan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-12 17:02 +0000
            Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-12 17:08 +0000
              Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added TrueSatan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-12 18:02 +0000
                OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-12 13:51 -0800
                  Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST TrueSatan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-12 22:07 +0000
                    Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-12 14:42 -0800
                    Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST owner <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 02:29 +0000
                      Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-13 05:45 +0000
                        Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 12:23 +0000
                          Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST cykros@devio.us - 2014-02-13 15:27 +0000
                            Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 20:13 +0000
                          Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-14 17:42 +0100
              Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-12 22:09 +0000
            Re: GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added wjwlsn <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 11:11 -0800

#271 — GNU Hurds a bit less now: User space drivers added

GNU Hurd improved support for user space drivers via projects DDE layer.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU5OTI

While missing sound and USB are probably still a blocker for most users, 
the userspace drivers might provide some interesting opportunities for 
experimental constructions. Wish I had more time to play around with it...


This article appeared on our soylentnews-predecessor Monday last Monday

-- 
Trolling is a art!

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#293

"q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> GNU Hurd improved support for user space drivers via projects DDE layer.
> 
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU5OTI
> 
> While missing sound and USB are probably still a blocker for most users, 
> the userspace drivers might provide some interesting opportunities for 
> experimental constructions. Wish I had more time to play around with it...
> 
> 
> This article appeared on our soylentnews-predecessor Monday last Monday


While I think it's very neat that the GNU project is still chugging along
with HURD, I think this project is just moving too slow for it to be able
to catch up to Linux at this point.  Perhaps that isn't the goal, but if it
isn't (ie replace Linux as the kernel for the GNU OS) then what IS the
goal?

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#298

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:24:08 +0000 (UTC)
Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:


> 
> While I think it's very neat that the GNU project is still chugging along
> with HURD, I think this project is just moving too slow for it to be able
> to catch up to Linux at this point.  Perhaps that isn't the goal, but if it
> isn't (ie replace Linux as the kernel for the GNU OS) then what IS the
> goal?

Isn't the benefit of a microkernal the fact that you can easily swap in and out drivers or other kernel modules - in kernel space?  I don't understand why you'd want drivers in user space, and how the Hurd kernel makes this possible/necessary.

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#312

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:59:00 AM UTC-5, RS Wood wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:24:08 +0000 (UTC) Oregonian Haruspex wrote: > > While I think it's very neat that the GNU project is still chugging along > with HURD, I think this project is just moving too slow for it to be able > to catch up to Linux at this point. Perhaps that isn't the goal, but if it > isn't (ie replace Linux as the kernel for the GNU OS) then what IS the > goal? Isn't the benefit of a microkernal the fact that you can easily swap in and out drivers or other kernel modules - in kernel space? I don't understand why you'd want drivers in user space, and how the Hurd kernel makes this possible/necessary.

I'm no kernel expert, but having drivers in user space really limits the extent to which a misbehaving driver can affect the kernel. The same goes for file systems, protocol stacks, security systems, etc. The kernel could shutdown and restart any of those as it sees fit. It may even be able to restart itself (or by a watchdog) without major interruption (like a hang or reboot).

As an analogy, think of it as a protected hypervisor or host OS that runs all user sessions in their own VMs. If one of the VMs goes wonky, it shouldn't affect any of the others, and the host can just restart the one with the problem.

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#313

wjwlsn wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:59:00 
AM UTC-5, RS Wood wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:24:08 +0000 
(UTC) Oregonian Haruspex wrote: > >
>> While I think it's very neat that the 
GNU project is still chugging along
>> > with HURD, I think this project is 
just moving too slow for it to be
>> able > to catch up to Linux at this 
point. Perhaps that isn't the goal,
>> but if it > isn't (ie replace Linux as 
the kernel for the GNU OS) then
>> what IS the > goal? Isn't the benefit 
of a microkernal the fact that you
>> can easily swap in and out drivers or 
other kernel modules - in kernel
>> space? I don't understand why you'd 
want drivers in user space, and how
>> the Hurd kernel makes this 
possible/necessary.
> 
> I'm no kernel expert, but having 
drivers in user space really limits the
> extent to which a misbehaving driver 
can affect the kernel. The same goes
> for file systems, protocol stacks, 
security systems, etc. The kernel could
> shutdown and restart any of those as it 
sees fit. It may even be able to
> restart itself (or by a watchdog) 
without major interruption (like a hang
> or reboot).
> 
> As an analogy, think of it as a 
protected hypervisor or host OS that runs
> all user sessions in their own VMs. If 
one of the VMs goes wonky, it
> shouldn't affect any of the others, and 
the host can just restart the one
> with the problem.
Moreover a user without root privileges
can add a driver for, say, a printer or a 
camera without having to bother a 
sysadmin...not of interest to a home user 
but in an enterprise/corporate 
environment potentially quite a boon

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#314

> Moreover a user without root privileges
> can add a driver for, say, a printer or a 
> camera without having to bother a 
> sysadmin...not of interest to a home user 
> but in an enterprise/corporate 
> environment potentially quite a boon

Obligatory XKCD:
http://xkcd.com/1200/

I love that one.

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#317

RS Wood wrote:

> 
>> Moreover a user without root 
privileges
>> can add a driver for, say, a printer 
or a
>> camera without having to bother a
>> sysadmin...not of interest to a home 
user
>> but in an enterprise/corporate
>> environment potentially quite a boon
> 
> Obligatory XKCD:
> http://xkcd.com/1200/
> 
> I love that one.
Thank you...you put a big cheesy grin on 
my face with that one.

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#329 — OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

On 2014-02-12 18:02:40 +0000, TrueSatan said:

> RS Wood wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> Moreover a user without root
> privileges
>>> can add a driver for, say, a printer
> or a
>>> camera without having to bother a
>>> sysadmin...not of interest to a home
> user
>>> but in an enterprise/corporate
>>> environment potentially quite a boon
>> 
>> Obligatory XKCD:
>> http://xkcd.com/1200/
>> 
>> I love that one.
> Thank you...you put a big cheesy grin on
> my face with that one.

I don't want to be a bother, but your news reader software is really 
mangling the hell out of your posts.

Here's what the one I replied to looks like:

("http://i.imgur.com/Nam3Aji.png")

Which software do you use?  Maybe we can help get you set up so your 
posts aren't so mangled.

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#333 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

> On 2014-02-12 18:02:40 +0000, TrueSatan 
said:
> 
>> RS Wood wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Moreover a user without root
>> privileges
>>>> can add a driver for, say, a printer
>> or a
>>>> camera without having to bother a
>>>> sysadmin...not of interest to a home
>> user
>>>> but in an enterprise/corporate
>>>> environment potentially quite a boon
>>> 
>>> Obligatory XKCD:
>>> http://xkcd.com/1200/
>>> 
>>> I love that one.
>> Thank you...you put a big cheesy grin 
on
>> my face with that one.
> 
> I don't want to be a bother, but your 
news reader software is really
> mangling the hell out of your posts.
> 
> Here's what the one I replied to looks 
like:
> 
> ("http://i.imgur.com/Nam3Aji.png")
> 
> Which software do you use?  Maybe we 
can help get you set up so your
> posts aren't so mangled.
Apologies, and thanks for letting me 
know. I'm using the KDE default 
one....Knode. What would you suggest as a 
better option? It needs to be for use on 
GNU/Linux and preferably not a Gnome item 
as that might drag in a lot of 
dependencies. 

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#340 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

On 2014-02-12 22:07:41 +0000, TrueSatan said:

> Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-12 18:02:40 +0000, TrueSatan
> said:
>> 
>>> RS Wood wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Moreover a user without root
>>> privileges
>>>>> can add a driver for, say, a printer
>>> or a
>>>>> camera without having to bother a
>>>>> sysadmin...not of interest to a home
>>> user
>>>>> but in an enterprise/corporate
>>>>> environment potentially quite a boon
>>>> 
>>>> Obligatory XKCD:
>>>> http://xkcd.com/1200/
>>>> 
>>>> I love that one.
>>> Thank you...you put a big cheesy grin
> on
>>> my face with that one.
>> 
>> I don't want to be a bother, but your
> news reader software is really
>> mangling the hell out of your posts.
>> 
>> Here's what the one I replied to looks
> like:
>> 
>> ("http://i.imgur.com/Nam3Aji.png")
>> 
>> Which software do you use?  Maybe we
> can help get you set up so your
>> posts aren't so mangled.
> Apologies, and thanks for letting me
> know. I'm using the KDE default
> one....Knode. What would you suggest as a
> better option? It needs to be for use on
> GNU/Linux and preferably not a Gnome item
> as that might drag in a lot of
> dependencies.

For a while I used Seamonkey which seemed to work well.  It's the new 
name for the old Mozilla suite.  There are also several command line 
newsreaders, tin, nn, and lynx also has news reading functionality.  
Some people also like to use leafnode, which I have only heard about 
but never used myself.

Poking around a bit, it seems that other Knode users have similar 
issues.  See ("http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/404997").

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#345 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 14:42:23 -0800, Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

> On 2014-02-12 22:07:41 +0000, TrueSatan said:
> 
>> Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2014-02-12 18:02:40 +0000, TrueSatan
>> said:
>>> 
>>>> RS Wood wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> Moreover a user without root
>>>> privileges
>>>>>> can add a driver for, say, a printer
>>>> or a
>>>>>> camera without having to bother a sysadmin...not of interest to a
>>>>>> home
>>>> user
>>>>>> but in an enterprise/corporate environment potentially quite a boon
>>>>> 
>>>>> Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/1200/
>>>>> 
>>>>> I love that one.
>>>> Thank you...you put a big cheesy grin
>> on
>>>> my face with that one.
>>> 
>>> I don't want to be a bother, but your
>> news reader software is really
>>> mangling the hell out of your posts.
>>> 
>>> Here's what the one I replied to looks
>> like:
>>> 
>>> ("http://i.imgur.com/Nam3Aji.png")
>>> 
>>> Which software do you use?  Maybe we
>> can help get you set up so your
>>> posts aren't so mangled.
>> Apologies, and thanks for letting me know. I'm using the KDE default
>> one....Knode. What would you suggest as a better option? It needs to be
>> for use on GNU/Linux and preferably not a Gnome item as that might drag
>> in a lot of dependencies.
> 
> For a while I used Seamonkey which seemed to work well.  It's the new
> name for the old Mozilla suite.  There are also several command line
> newsreaders, tin, nn, and lynx also has news reading functionality. Some
> people also like to use leafnode, which I have only heard about but
> never used myself.
> 
> Poking around a bit, it seems that other Knode users have similar
> issues.  See ("http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/404997").

Sorry for the slow follow up...must have tried a number of options before 
I found one I could live with. a quick run down...

Thunderbird: Usenet is somewhat broken in TB according to many users...as 
I use Claws Mail anyhow that was enough to kick it off my list.

Knode: The bug yopu were kind enough to spot is exactly the one I've been 
encountering though the devs appear to think it is an edge case and don't 
have a solution available.

Seamonkey: Seems a good deal of overkill to run the entire Seamonkey just 
to get a Usenet client...would work but...

Klibedo: Used to be a good choice by all accounts but the project is long 
dead and doesn't seem to play well with the current QT framework.

Kwooty: Looked promising but looks can be deceiving as they say...about 
as full of bugs as a month dead cow that had been left in a field to rot. 
The sole developer seems to have realised the extent of the problems and 
departed...as Shakespeare put it "exit stage left pursued by a 
bear" (Stage direction in "A Winter's Tale")

trn4: Works but does not support authentication so not much use here...or 
most places I Suspect.

leafnode: Seems to be a server rather than a client.

xpn: Tried to pull in the majority of Gnome...not for me being a KDE user.

There were the command line ones...I could live with them if I had to but 
prefer a graphical option and may not be the only user of the software so 
the needs of the significant other weigh things towards a graphical 
option too.

pan: Hmmm...doesn't pull in more than a couple of small dependencies so 
that is OK...full featured too. The KDE integration is really poor with 
it not adopting global fonts or styles but a bit of tweaking gets it into 
a usable state if still an ugly looking one. Overall it is my choice for 
now unless something better turns up.

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#352 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 02:29:17 +0000, owner wrote:

> There were the command line ones...I could live with them if I had to
> but prefer a graphical option and may not be the only user of the
> software so the needs of the significant other weigh things towards a
> graphical option too.

I used to use slrn a couple of years ago, and feature-wise it was better 
than pan. But I did have some trouble setting it up at first, and it 
takes a little time to get used to all the shortcuts. However, I expect I 
will return to slrn one of these days.
 
> pan: Hmmm...doesn't pull in more than a couple of small dependencies so
> that is OK...full featured too. The KDE integration is really poor with
> it not adopting global fonts or styles but a bit of tweaking gets it
> into a usable state if still an ugly looking one. Overall it is my
> choice for now unless something better turns up.

Good choice :-)

-- 
Trolling is a art!

My public-key is available on http://tinyurl.com/ps9r99y

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#370 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

 Thanks...I'll have a look at slrn too. I saw it in my package manager's 
list but the description sounded, frankly, pathetic so I passed it over. 
Sadly I suspect than anyone else who goes by such descriptions won't give 
it a second look unless otherwise prompted.

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#383 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks...I'll have a look at slrn too. I saw it in my package manager's 
> list but the description sounded, frankly, pathetic so I passed it over. 
> Sadly I suspect than anyone else who goes by such descriptions won't give 
> it a second look unless otherwise prompted.

Tin is another one you may want to look at.  To save you the headache of 
"where do I configure this", the nntp server goes in the NNTPSERVER 
environment variable.  If you're using an nntp server that requires 
authorization (I'd think most do), you'll be using a .newsauth file 
in your ~.

Been using it for years, and while I have strayed at times, it's still
my favorite for doing serious usenet perusal. 

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#387 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

 Thanks...I'll probably keep Pan as my graphical client but try both slrn 
and tin to see which suits me best as a console client. It's stillpretty 
sad to see the rather dire state of many of the graphical clients though 
isn't it? I wonder how much that impacts the new user takeup of usenet.

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#416 — Re: OFF TOPIC USENET LINE MANGLING NAG POST

On 2014-02-13, True Satan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>  Thanks...I'll have a look at slrn too. I saw it in my package manager's 
> list but the description sounded, frankly, pathetic so I passed it over. 
> Sadly I suspect than anyone else who goes by such descriptions won't give 
> it a second look unless otherwise prompted.

I got back to slrn now. The scorefile is IMO more flexible, and for pan I 
wasn't able to find an option to go to a parent message in a thread (when
it was not already available locally). There are some nice features in 
slrn, once gotten used to it.

BTW: I do use my laptop a lot when I'm on train or otherwise without
network. For best offline experience, I can recommend the combination 
of (tin || pan || slrn) && leafnode, even though I had some trouble to 
get it up and running on Fedora. (The catch was that leafnode needs to
be started via xinetd, but xinetd was not installed as a dependency. I
tried starting leafnode directly, but it does not listen on any port :-))
 
The next problem was that leafnode wants a fqdn to create a message ID.
Since I want to remain pseudonymous (I guess, if someone really tries 
it will not be to difficult to figure out my real identity, but I don't
want every recruiter to find my blog and my usenet posts when googling
my name), but wanted to have a truly unique fqdn, I took a real domain I 
own, salted it properly, hashed it, and added it as hostname to 
/etc/hosts. I doubt anyone will pick the same name 
7398004cd8ad880124144d3c685567d7.anonymous
by accident now :-)

-- 
Trolling is a art!

My public-key is available on http://tinyurl.com/ps9r99y

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#334

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 17:08:42 +0000, RS Wood wrote:

> Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/1200/
> 
> I love that one.

Nice one :-) And the reason why I start several instances of Firefox 
running as different users (one for only Facialbook, one for online-
banking, one for "normal" internet. For special occasions I still create 
a new account. Sometimes I do it via ssh -X localhost (which won't help 
if someone steals the laptop without active lock-screen), sometimes with 
a second user session (which helps better, since screen is locked 
whenever I switch to another session.)

BTW: How should I sign usenet-posts? Including the signature, or 
excluding? If I include the signature, the separator is messed up somehow 
("-- " -> "- -- "), if I exclude the signature, it might increase the 
risk that my GPG signature is unneccesarily quoted in followups.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)

iJwEAQECAAYFAlL78MYACgkQ4XLZ2XZQJ8DUQwP9HXgxZU8kTwUGfhSkbi8HyECg
jgjYDlmGWrswNA4cweexUdslbKFV/PG7EFlC4wKY5yRDM12qi9ZfhEMNc0yDH9B0
mC5WndEa+XSHZOBQfAMkpzm0mowP3/qAGpoz0tEEj8LxqnxEqL8SKcBMOkkHgOoI
VEmdjARt9CyLft5H6IE=
=TIkz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Trolling is a art!

My public-key is available on http://tinyurl.com/ps9r99y

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#320

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:02:28 PM UTC-5, TrueSatan wrote:
> Moreover a user without root privileges can add a driver for, say, a printer or a camera without having to bother a sysadmin...not of interest to a home user but in an enterprise/corporate environment potentially quite a boon

It could be a protocol handler too, one that might be using various libraries that might have a wide range of capabilities but that aren't needed otherwise. It would likely be good for system reliability and security to have those things halt, cleanup and closeout resources (files, ports, etc.), and unload completely when they're not needed.

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