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[Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco

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  [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-05-01 16:43 +0000
    Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2019-05-01 20:16 +0300
      Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2019-05-01 17:37 -0400
        Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-05-01 22:57 +0000
          Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2019-05-04 15:43 -0400
            Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-05-07 01:00 +0000
        Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-05-01 21:08 -0400
          Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco arnold@skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins) - 2019-05-02 10:01 +0000
            Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-19 16:26 +0000
          Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-05-02 15:56 +0000
            Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-05-02 20:49 -0400
              Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-05-03 15:51 +0000
              Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2019-05-03 10:14 +0300
          Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2019-05-02 20:19 +0000
            Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-05-02 20:50 -0400
              Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2019-05-03 23:16 -0500
            Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2019-05-03 08:16 +0100
    Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2019-05-01 13:59 -0400
      Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-05-01 18:23 +0000
        Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2019-05-01 17:14 -0400
    Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-05-01 15:55 -0400
      Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2019-05-01 20:28 +0000
        Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2019-05-01 21:49 -0300
        Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Steve555 <Steve555@bogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-15 19:55 +0000
          Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2019-06-17 16:49 +0000
            Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-19 16:43 +0000
              Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2019-06-19 20:17 +0000
      Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-05-01 21:18 +0000
      Re: [Link Posting] Systemd invasion into Linux Server space - RHEL 7 as Red Hat fiasco not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2019-05-02 23:31 +0000

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#17909

On Wed, 01 May 2019 16:43:07 +0000 (UTC)
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> >  Systemd represents an alarming, but pretty understandable trend in linux
> >  world -- 

Ladies, gents, FreeBSD is right over here --->

If you prefer the classic approach to Unix, that's what FreeBSD (still)
provides.  Lots of complicated init scripts and all!  I happen to like
Linux on my laptop, but love FreeBSD on my server.

The word "fiasco" in the title gives this one away as clickbait, I'd
say.  If you want a fiasco, look no further than American government.
Systemd is just tech.

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#17910

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 May 2019 16:43:07 +0000 (UTC)
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> >  Systemd represents an alarming, but pretty understandable trend in linux
>> >  world -- 
> 
> Ladies, gents, FreeBSD is right over here --->
> 
> If you prefer the classic approach to Unix, that's what FreeBSD (still)
> provides.  Lots of complicated init scripts and all!  I happen to like
> Linux on my laptop, but love FreeBSD on my server.
> 
> The word "fiasco" in the title gives this one away as clickbait, I'd
> say.  If you want a fiasco, look no further than American government.
> Systemd is just tech.

Or Slackware which uses sysvinit but BSD style scripts for the most
part.

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#17917

Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> writes:

> [Others wrote:]
>
> [systemd yadda yadda]
>
> Or Slackware which uses sysvinit but BSD style scripts for the most
> part.

Waves hand from back row. (Slackware on 6 assorted boxen, exclusively
since 1999)

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#18214

On 2019-05-01, Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> wrote:
> RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 May 2019 16:43:07 +0000 (UTC)
>> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> >  Systemd represents an alarming, but pretty understandable trend in linux
>>> >  world -- 
>> 
>> Ladies, gents, FreeBSD is right over here --->
>> 
>> If you prefer the classic approach to Unix, that's what FreeBSD (still)
>> provides.  Lots of complicated init scripts and all!  I happen to like
>> Linux on my laptop, but love FreeBSD on my server.
>> 
>> The word "fiasco" in the title gives this one away as clickbait, I'd
>> say.  If you want a fiasco, look no further than American government.
>> Systemd is just tech.
>
> Or Slackware which uses sysvinit but BSD style scripts for the most
> part.
>
Slackware here too :-)  Using windowmaker as the desktop, and xterm as
the primary interface.  I love wmaker; I think it's very underrated.
I also run FreeBSD, again with windowmaker.  
After reading this thread, I'm going to try out devuan some time.

My primary objection to systemd is the 'monolithic' breakage of unix 
design philosoply, and the power it gives to redhat over the future 
direction of linux, through lock-in.

The systemd lock-in is extended to gnome 3 applications.  If you 
write for gnome 3, you automatically create a dependency on systemd.
That software becomes much harder to port to a non-systemd linux.  If users
want to use those programs, they must switch to a distro that uses systemd.

AFAIK kde plasma is still independent of systemd, although I could be wrong.

Steve555

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#18228

In article <qe3ifu$1jf$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Steve555  <Steve555@bogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>The systemd lock-in is extended to gnome 3 applications.  If you 
>write for gnome 3, you automatically create a dependency on systemd.
>That software becomes much harder to port to a non-systemd linux.  If users
>want to use those programs, they must switch to a distro that uses systemd.
>
>AFAIK kde plasma is still independent of systemd, although I could be wrong.

If I'm not mistaken, GNOME 3 can now run on Gentoo without installing
systemd:

https://blogs.gentoo.org/leio/2019/03/26/gnome-3-30/

It does this by reimplementing the bits of systemd used by GNOME in a way
that's compatible with the default OpenRC (or probably whatever other init
daemon you might want to use).

FWIW, I've been using KDE all along...never cared much for the GNOME
aesthetic.

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#18262

On 2019-06-17, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
> In article <qe3ifu$1jf$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Steve555  <Steve555@bogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>>The systemd lock-in is extended to gnome 3 applications.  If you 
>>write for gnome 3, you automatically create a dependency on systemd.
>>That software becomes much harder to port to a non-systemd linux.  If users
>>want to use those programs, they must switch to a distro that uses systemd.
>>
>>AFAIK kde plasma is still independent of systemd, although I could be wrong.
>
> If I'm not mistaken, GNOME 3 can now run on Gentoo without installing
> systemd:
>
> https://blogs.gentoo.org/leio/2019/03/26/gnome-3-30/
>
> It does this by reimplementing the bits of systemd used by GNOME in a way
> that's compatible with the default OpenRC (or probably whatever other init
> daemon you might want to use).
>
> FWIW, I've been using KDE all along...never cared much for the GNOME
> aesthetic.
>
>   _/_
>  / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
> (IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
>  \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
>
Interesting... I wasnt aware of that.  I also used kde plasma for a while,
it's very good, lots of eye candy, but just too big and complex for my 
taste at the end of the day.  I like thin and light windowmanagers like like 
fvwm or wmaker.  And I like using xterm and some of the other original X 
programs.  I tried fluxbox, jwm, etc but prefer the older progs.  
I tried dwm but couldn't get on with it.  I keep meaning to try openbox but
never got round to it.  I hope that doesn't make me a luddite! ;-)

-- 
  Gnd  -|o----|- Vcc      Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
 trig  -| 555 |- dschrg   $ finger o:sydney@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
  o/p  -|     |- thrsh
  rst  -|-----|- cntrl    Steve555

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#18266

On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 16:43:33 +0000, Steve555 wrote:

> On 2019-06-17, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
>> In article <qe3ifu$1jf$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> Steve555  <Steve555@bogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>>>The systemd lock-in is extended to gnome 3 applications.  If you write
>>>for gnome 3, you automatically create a dependency on systemd.
>>>That software becomes much harder to port to a non-systemd linux.  If
>>>users want to use those programs, they must switch to a distro that
>>>uses systemd.
>>>
>>>AFAIK kde plasma is still independent of systemd, although I could be
>>>wrong.
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken, GNOME 3 can now run on Gentoo without installing
>> systemd:
>>
>> https://blogs.gentoo.org/leio/2019/03/26/gnome-3-30/
>>
>> It does this by reimplementing the bits of systemd used by GNOME in a
>> way that's compatible with the default OpenRC (or probably whatever
>> other init daemon you might want to use).
>>
>> FWIW, I've been using KDE all along...never cared much for the GNOME
>> aesthetic.
>>
>>   _/_
>>  / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
>> (IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
>>  \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on
>>  Usenet?
>>
> Interesting... I wasnt aware of that.  I also used kde plasma for a
> while, it's very good, lots of eye candy, but just too big and complex
> for my taste at the end of the day.  I like thin and light
> windowmanagers like like fvwm or wmaker.  And I like using xterm and
> some of the other original X programs.  I tried fluxbox, jwm, etc but
> prefer the older progs.
> I tried dwm but couldn't get on with it.  I keep meaning to try openbox
> but never got round to it.  I hope that doesn't make me a luddite! ;-)

I used to use KDE because at the time it provided an easy transition from 
OS/2. But it got bigger, heavier, and you seemed to have to buy into the 
whole thing.

I used LXDE for a while, but it was incomplete and badly documented.

Now using XFCE and very happy. xterm is a bit too basic for me, and given 
that the terminal program I did use became abandonware, I now use termit. 
It is tabbed, and very configurable (although you have to use a bit of 
lua).



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#17914

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 May 2019 16:43:07 +0000 (UTC)
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> >  Systemd represents an alarming, but pretty understandable trend 
>> >  in linux world --
> 
> Ladies, gents, FreeBSD is right over here --->
> 
> If you prefer the classic approach to Unix, that's what FreeBSD 
> (still) provides.  Lots of complicated init scripts and all!  I 
> happen to like Linux on my laptop, but love FreeBSD on my server.

You can have parts of both worlds with Slackware.  You get Linux, and 
you get BSD style init scripts.

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#17927

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 01 May 2019 16:43:07 +0000 (UTC)
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> >  Systemd represents an alarming, but pretty understandable trend in linux
>> >  world -- 
> 
> Ladies, gents, FreeBSD is right over here --->
> 
> If you prefer the classic approach to Unix, that's what FreeBSD (still)
> provides.  Lots of complicated init scripts and all!  I happen to like
> Linux on my laptop, but love FreeBSD on my server.

And plenty of alternatives still in Linux too. That's why I resist
joining the anti-Systemd chorus - all that I could ask for is that
the option not to use it remains, and it has. Granted it would be
nice if it didn't dictate one's choice of distro, but as with all
free software, you get what you're given.

> The word "fiasco" in the title gives this one away as clickbait, I'd
> say.

I found some of the history parts interesting to read, though it's
too long and I didn't get through all of it.

> If you want a fiasco, look no further than American government.
> Systemd is just tech.

Both seem to matter more than they should do for this non Systemd
using Australian.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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