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Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood

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  Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-06-15 18:23 +0100
    Re: Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-16 11:51 +1000
      Re: Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-16 13:29 +1000
      Re: Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-06-16 13:03 +0100
        Re: Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-16 23:02 +1000
          Re: Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-06-16 20:29 +0100

#3686 — Vanadium: The metal that may soon be powering your neighbourhood

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27829874>

For those who aren't impressed by the iron flow battery mentioned
recently.

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

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#3695

On 16/06/2014 3:23 AM, Whiskers wrote:
> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27829874>
>
> For those who aren't impressed by the iron flow battery mentioned
> recently.
>

The Wikipedia article for the vanadium redox battery indicates that you 
need two atoms of vanadium for each electron. Thus 100g of Vanadium 
gives approximately 6 * 10^23 electrons, or about 10^5 Coulombs.

The open cell potential is about 1 volt, so our 100g of Vanadium gives 
at most 10^5 Joules. One tonne of Vanadium thus give us 10^9 Joules, or 
about 280 kWh.

The world's known vanadium reserves are about 13 million tonnes.

http://vanitec.org/vanadium/vanadium-sources-producers/

So if it were all used in vanadium redox batteries, we'd have a capacity 
of 13 * 10^6 * 280 kWh, or about 3640 GWh.

Wikipedia indicates that the world electricity consumption is 
19,320,360,620 MWh per year, or about 53 GWh per day.

The point of using the batteries is to balance supply and demand, yet it 
is clear from the above numbers that the scope for using vanadium redox 
batteries in this role is going to be very limited if for no other 
reason than there isn't enough vanadium.

Sylvia

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#3697

On 16/06/2014 11:51 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:

> Wikipedia indicates that the world electricity consumption is
> 19,320,360,620 MWh per year, or about 53 GWh per day.

Er, that is 53,000 GWh per day.

Sylvia.

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#3702

On 2014-06-16, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
> On 16/06/2014 3:23 AM, Whiskers wrote:
>> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27829874>
>>
>> For those who aren't impressed by the iron flow battery mentioned
>> recently.
>>
>
> The Wikipedia article for the vanadium redox battery indicates that you 
> need two atoms of vanadium for each electron. Thus 100g of Vanadium 
> gives approximately 6 * 10^23 electrons, or about 10^5 Coulombs.
>
> The open cell potential is about 1 volt, so our 100g of Vanadium gives 
> at most 10^5 Joules. One tonne of Vanadium thus give us 10^9 Joules, or 
> about 280 kWh.
>
> The world's known vanadium reserves are about 13 million tonnes.
>
> http://vanitec.org/vanadium/vanadium-sources-producers/

"Vanadium is the 22nd most abundant element in the earth’s crust,
occurring more than 65 minerals"

"Vanadium resources globally are estimated at 63 million metric tons"

"With current vanadium consumption at about 61,000 metric tons V per
year, known resources represent approximately 1,000 years supply."

"World vanadium reserves (that part of the identified vanadium resource
that meets specified minimum physical and chemical criteria related to
current mining and production practices) are estimated at 13 million
metric tons V, or about 200 years supply at current consumption rates."

"Titaniferous magnetite is the most important source for vanadium
presently accounting about 85% of the current world V2O5 production.
This iron ore typically contains 1.0% to 1.5% V2O5."

In other words, there's so much of the stuff that no-one is bothered to
look for it; instead, they estimate the "known reserves" by projecting
current usage from the sources already being worked.  If that works out
to be "200 years supply at current consumption" there's no point looking
for more of it.  

It's a by-product of iron ore smelting - if you want some, you extract
it from the slag.  If consumption of vanadium increases, more slag-heaps
will be assayed, abandoned mines will reopen, and new mines will be dug.

> So if it were all used in vanadium redox batteries, we'd have a capacity 
> of 13 * 10^6 * 280 kWh, or about 3640 GWh.
>
> Wikipedia indicates that the world electricity consumption is 
> 19,320,360,620 MWh per year, or about 53 GWh per day.
>
> The point of using the batteries is to balance supply and demand, yet it 
> is clear from the above numbers that the scope for using vanadium redox 
> batteries in this role is going to be very limited if for no other 
> reason than there isn't enough vanadium.
>
> Sylvia

There is no shortage of vanadium.  At present, we can't use it fast
enough to keep up with what we dig up anyway to get other stuff.

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

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#3704

On 16/06/2014 10:03 PM, Whiskers wrote:
> On 2014-06-16, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
>> On 16/06/2014 3:23 AM, Whiskers wrote:
>>> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27829874>
>>>
>>> For those who aren't impressed by the iron flow battery mentioned
>>> recently.
>>>
>>
>> The Wikipedia article for the vanadium redox battery indicates that you
>> need two atoms of vanadium for each electron. Thus 100g of Vanadium
>> gives approximately 6 * 10^23 electrons, or about 10^5 Coulombs.
>>
>> The open cell potential is about 1 volt, so our 100g of Vanadium gives
>> at most 10^5 Joules. One tonne of Vanadium thus give us 10^9 Joules, or
>> about 280 kWh.
>>
>> The world's known vanadium reserves are about 13 million tonnes.
>>
>> http://vanitec.org/vanadium/vanadium-sources-producers/
>
> "Vanadium is the 22nd most abundant element in the earth’s crust,
> occurring more than 65 minerals"
>
> "Vanadium resources globally are estimated at 63 million metric tons"
>
> "With current vanadium consumption at about 61,000 metric tons V per
> year, known resources represent approximately 1,000 years supply."
>
> "World vanadium reserves (that part of the identified vanadium resource
> that meets specified minimum physical and chemical criteria related to
> current mining and production practices) are estimated at 13 million
> metric tons V, or about 200 years supply at current consumption rates."
>
> "Titaniferous magnetite is the most important source for vanadium
> presently accounting about 85% of the current world V2O5 production.
> This iron ore typically contains 1.0% to 1.5% V2O5."
>
> In other words, there's so much of the stuff that no-one is bothered to
> look for it; instead, they estimate the "known reserves" by projecting
> current usage from the sources already being worked.  If that works out
> to be "200 years supply at current consumption" there's no point looking
> for more of it.
>
> It's a by-product of iron ore smelting - if you want some, you extract
> it from the slag.  If consumption of vanadium increases, more slag-heaps
> will be assayed, abandoned mines will reopen, and new mines will be dug.
>
>> So if it were all used in vanadium redox batteries, we'd have a capacity
>> of 13 * 10^6 * 280 kWh, or about 3640 GWh.
>>
>> Wikipedia indicates that the world electricity consumption is
>> 19,320,360,620 MWh per year, or about 53 GWh per day.
>>
>> The point of using the batteries is to balance supply and demand, yet it
>> is clear from the above numbers that the scope for using vanadium redox
>> batteries in this role is going to be very limited if for no other
>> reason than there isn't enough vanadium.
>>
>> Sylvia
>
> There is no shortage of vanadium.  At present, we can't use it fast
> enough to keep up with what we dig up anyway to get other stuff.
>

That doesn't seem entirely consistent with its price variation.

Though I diverge here from my main point, it would not be economic to 
mine iron ore just to extract the vanadium.

Sylvia.

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#3714

On 2014-06-16, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
> On 16/06/2014 10:03 PM, Whiskers wrote:
>> On 2014-06-16, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
>>> On 16/06/2014 3:23 AM, Whiskers wrote:

[...]

>> There is no shortage of vanadium.  At present, we can't use it fast
>> enough to keep up with what we dig up anyway to get other stuff.
>
> That doesn't seem entirely consistent with its price variation.

Why not?  Demand fluctuates, more rapidly than supply does; when demand
goes up, it becomes worthwhile to build more extraction facilities, thus
increasing supply and causing prices to fall.  When demand goes down,
the price falls further and some of the extraction facilities are
decommissioned.  

> Though I diverge here from my main point, it would not be economic to 
> mine iron ore just to extract the vanadium.

That depends on the relative prices, which in turn depend on demand.
It's not unusual for a former by-product or contaminant to become the
main source of profit.

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

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