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The lure of retro computing

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  The lure of retro computing RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-05-06 18:40 +0000
    Re: The lure of retro computing Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-06 19:41 +0000
    Re: The lure of retro computing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-06 22:59 +0300
      Re: The lure of retro computing despen@verizon.net (Dan.Espen) - 2014-05-06 16:19 -0400
        Re: The lure of retro computing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-07 00:19 +0300
      Re: The lure of retro computing "G. Paul Ziemba" <paul+usenet@w6yx.stanford.edu> - 2014-05-07 06:06 +0000
      Re: The lure of retro computing Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-05-07 07:10 +0000
      Re: The lure of retro computing David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2014-05-08 20:38 -0700
        Re: The lure of retro computing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-09 10:28 +0300
        Re: The lure of retro computing Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-09 10:08 +0100
    Re: The lure of retro computing Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2014-05-06 21:09 +0000
    Re: The lure of retro computing Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-06 22:29 +0000
    Re: The lure of retro computing Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2014-05-07 06:39 -0700
    Re: The lure of retro computing Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-08 18:14 +0000
      Re: The lure of retro computing Stephen Thomas Cole <usenet@stephenthomascole.com> - 2014-05-09 13:34 +0000
        Re: The lure of retro computing Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-09 14:39 +0000
        Re: The lure of retro computing Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-09 14:40 +0000

#2656 — The lure of retro computing

From the «8 bits are good enough for anybody» department:
Title: The Lure of Retro Computing
Author: zafiro17@pipedot.org
Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 21:12:09 -0400
Link: http://pipedot.org/story/2014-05-06/the-lure-of-retro-computing

What's the best computer you ever owned? Step aside with your Core Duo, son,
and make some room for the gentleman who wants to tell you about his
Commodore 64[1] . Or Sinclair ZX[2] . Or DEC Terminal[3] .Retro computing is
hotter than ever, attracting the interest of a whole new generation who takes
interest in the machines of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. You may have missed the
Retro Computing Fair[4] in East Philadelphia last month, but that doesn't
mean you're out of luck. Roswell, Georgia is hosting a Vintage Computing
Festival[5] next month, and museums dedicated to classic hardware are
springing up everywhere, like this one[6] in Ramsgate, UK. Most of them are
the product of their passionate founders who have opened up their personal
collections.Can't make it anywhere? It's still not too late to play some
classic Commodore 64 games[7] courtesy of a Raspberry Pi and some clever
emulation.That's the thing about bits. Eight of 'em should've been enough for
anybody.

Links:
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64 (link)
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_ZX81 (link)
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100 (link)
[4]: http://articles.philly.com/2014-04-06/news/48891140_1_computers-vintage-car-show-antique-cars (link)
[5]: http://www.northfulton.com/Articles-COMMUNITY-NEWS-c-2014-05-01-203603.114126-sub-Computer-museum-unveils-new-exhibit.html (link)
[6]: http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/New-Micro-Museum-opens-Ramsgate/story-21046799-detail/story.html (link)
[7]: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/miss-8-bit-gaming-revive-80s-commodore-64-computer-using-raspberry-pi-1444753 (link)

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#2658

On Tue, 06 May 2014 18:40:08 +0000, RS Wood wrote:

> What's the best computer you ever owned? Step aside with your Core Duo,
> son,
> and make some room for the gentleman who wants to tell you about his
> Commodore 64[1] . Or Sinclair ZX[2] . Or DEC Terminal[3] .Retro
> computing is hotter than ever, attracting the interest of a whole new
> generation who takes interest in the machines of the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
> You may have missed the Retro Computing Fair[4] in East Philadelphia
> last month, but that doesn't mean you're out of luck. Roswell, Georgia
> is hosting a Vintage Computing Festival[5] next month, and museums
> dedicated to classic hardware are springing up everywhere, like this
> one[6] in Ramsgate, UK.

Just heard about that. About 20 minutes' drive so I shall go!

> games[7] courtesy of a Raspberry Pi and some clever emulation.That's the
> thing about bits. Eight of 'em should've been enough for anybody.

My favourite has to be the PDP-8. I always wanted to play with one but 
was never allowed.

Now I have two SBC-6120 replicas!

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#2659

RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:

> What's the best computer you ever owned?

I did a lot of fun stuff with my father's office computer: a Xerox
desktop computer with 64 kB of RAM, two 8" floppy-disk drives, a Z80
processor running at 4 MHz IIRC, the CP/M OS, a CRT display with
memory-mapped character display (ASCII + graphics characters) with a
scroll register for super-fast scrolling, a Diablo 630 daisy wheel
printer.

I learned Z80 assembly, dynamic debugging, BIOS listings, sorting
algorithms, Pascal programming and producing polyphonic choral music by
controlling the speaker's coil directly.

Still, the modern computer with Linux, the Internet and the gamut of
programming languages is far more rewarding. Only I feel sorry for the
young programmers who have to jump straight to the complexities without
having the luxury of understanding *everything* of a small
microcomputer.


Marko

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#2661

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Only I feel sorry for the
> young programmers who have to jump straight to the complexities without
> having the luxury of understanding *everything* of a small
> microcomputer.

Micros are one thing, but I started with an IBM 1401.
Enlightened users avoided IBM's attempts at an OS and
programmed the machine without an OS in the way.
The manuals gave instruction timings, and the machine
made it's registers easily accessible.

Of course you don't need an OS for read a card, print a line,
read a tape record.  But the machines came with disks too.
You did your own record deblocking, disk file allocation,
invented your own access methods.

You really did know _everything_ going on in the machine.
But I'm not drawn to those machines, time has passed.
I can live without compiles taking minutes to hours.

I remember when computers first started dealing with
lower case.  I wasn't in favor.  Seemed to me, we had
way too many characters already.  You can communicate
fine without lower case.

Then people wanted proportional characters.  I felt the
same way, a crap load of computing just to stick a few
more characters on a line, and simple formatting using
spaces no longer worked.

Now computers even support left to right languages mixed
in with right to left in the same document.

Sometimes we are just too clever.  I had always hoped some
things would be too complex for computers and we'd
simplify our language(s) to deal with it.  Oh well.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#2663

despen@verizon.net (Dan.Espen):

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>
>> Only I feel sorry for the young programmers who have to jump straight
>> to the complexities without having the luxury of understanding
>> *everything* of a small microcomputer.
>
> [...]
>
> You really did know _everything_ going on in the machine. But I'm not
> drawn to those machines, time has passed. I can live without compiles
> taking minutes to hours.

What I mean is that today's Java programmer might be in the dark about
what's going on on the inside of the computer. For all he knows, there's
a small gnome inside the box executing the bytecode. You develop
superstitious taboos around object synchronization, which may or may not
make your code thread-safe.


Marko

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#2666

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>> What's the best computer you ever owned?
>I did a lot of fun stuff with my father's office computer: a Xerox
>desktop computer with 64 kB of RAM, two 8" floppy-disk drives, a Z80
>processor running at 4 MHz IIRC, the CP/M OS, a CRT display with
>memory-mapped character display (ASCII + graphics characters) with a
>scroll register for super-fast scrolling, a Diablo 630 daisy wheel
>printer.

This sounds like a Xerox 820. Sometime around 1984, Xerox began
selling the motherboards and related components (e.g., 8-inch floppy
drives) through their surplus outlet.

I was a poor college student at the time, and could not afford a real
"IBM PC" or even a clone. However, I could afford these boards, and
cobbled a few systems together. Bob Clements disassembled the Xerox
roms (which apparently had no copyright notice), and quite a community
of hackers learned to augment them based on his well-commented listings. 

I used a couple of these systems for the next several years in
grad school as terminals, modem dialback controllers, morse code
keyboard, etc., all programmed in Z80 assembler (which was roughly
8085 assembler + block instructions).

Other folks used them for all sorts of projects. One guy I worked
with set up an 820 system to drive an 8-foot satellite dish to scan
the sky for TV broadcast signals and record their positions for later
automatic tuning.
-- 
G. Paul Ziemba
FreeBSD unix:
11:06PM  up 101 days, 5 mins, 26 users, load averages: 2.55, 2.43, 2.31

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#2669

On 2014-05-06, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>
>> What's the best computer you ever owned?
>
> I did a lot of fun stuff with my father's office computer: a Xerox
> desktop computer with 64 kB of RAM, two 8" floppy-disk drives, a Z80
> processor running at 4 MHz IIRC, the CP/M OS, a CRT display with
> memory-mapped character display (ASCII + graphics characters) with a
> scroll register for super-fast scrolling, a Diablo 630 daisy wheel
> printer.

That'll be a Xerox 820, then.

-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 54th day of Discord in the YOLD 3180
“Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime;
 the sentence is death. There is no appeal, and execution is carried out
                 automatically and without pity.”

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#2718

On Tue, 06 May 2014 22:59:18 +0300 in comp.misc, Marko Rauhamaa
<marko@pacujo.net> wrote,
> Only I feel sorry for the
>young programmers who have to jump straight to the complexities without
>having the luxury of understanding *everything* of a small
>microcomputer.

Nobody has to do that.  It's only a couple of bucks for a
microcomputer chip or a few more for a development board on which 
you can go as low-level as you feel like going.  It's easier 
than ever before.

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#2720

David Harmon <source@netcom.com>:

> Nobody has to do that. It's only a couple of bucks for a microcomputer
> chip or a few more for a development board on which you can go as
> low-level as you feel like going. It's easier than ever before.

The closest I want to get to hardware is the keyboard. I've tried
touching other hardware before but it always turns to dust in my hands
(or under my power drill). I've gotten smoke out of a CRT monitor
without even touching it.


Marko

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#2722

In article <AuqdnW58YLEr0PHOnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@earthlink.com>, David
Harmon <source@netcom.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 06 May 2014 22:59:18 +0300 in comp.misc, Marko Rauhamaa
> <marko@pacujo.net> wrote,
> > Only I feel sorry for the
> >young programmers who have to jump straight to the complexities without
> >having the luxury of understanding *everything* of a small
> >microcomputer.
> 
> Nobody has to do that.  It's only a couple of bucks for a
> microcomputer chip or a few more for a development board on which 
> you can go as low-level as you feel like going.  It's easier 
> than ever before.

I spent a little more and bought a 68000 SBC, having had a yen to try
programming one since the early 80s. At that time in passing at work I
wired up and debugged some Z80 SBCs, but decided that programming 8-bit
processors is too much of a faff to be interesting, and the 8086 too
revolting.

I was able to write a nice little multi-tasking monitor in assembler
for the 68000, using my Mac Mini as a development platform, but decided
that even on a decent processor, assembler is a bit dull, so I'll be
sticking with PHP and javaScript. I also found that I'm losing the fine
motor coordination needed for inserting chips without breaking their
little legs.

The results are at http://www.clothears.org.uk if anyone's interested.

-- 
"People don't buy Microsoft for quality, they buy it for compatibility
with what Bob in accounting bought last year. Trace it back - they buy
Microsoft because the IBM Selectric didn't suck much" - P Seebach, afc

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#2662

On 2014-05-06, RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> What's the best computer you ever owned?

DEC Pro-350, basically a PDP-11 in a desktop case. Mine ran Venix,
a Unix variant, didn't care much for the available DEC OSes such as RSTS
(the Real Sh*tty Timesharing System). I think it came with a whopping
10 Megabyte hard drive.

Special mention goes to the Digicomp-I, which was the *first* computer
I ever owned. There is a company selling reproductions:

  http://www.mindsontoys.com/kits.htm?dc1_main.htm

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#2665

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> From the «8 bits are good enough for anybody» department:
> Title: The Lure of Retro Computing
> Author: zafiro17@pipedot.org
> Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 21:12:09 -0400
> Link: http://pipedot.org/story/2014-05-06/the-lure-of-retro-computing
> 
> What's the best computer you ever owned? Step aside with your Core Duo, son,
> and make some room for the gentleman who wants to tell you about his
> Commodore 64[1] . Or Sinclair ZX[2] . Or DEC Terminal[3] .Retro computing is
> hotter than ever, attracting the interest of a whole new generation who takes
> interest in the machines of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. You may have missed the
> Retro Computing Fair[4] in East Philadelphia last month, but that doesn't
> mean you're out of luck. Roswell, Georgia is hosting a Vintage Computing
> Festival[5] next month, and museums dedicated to classic hardware are
> springing up everywhere, like this one[6] in Ramsgate, UK. Most of them are
> the product of their passionate founders who have opened up their personal
> collections.Can't make it anywhere? It's still not too late to play some
> classic Commodore 64 games[7] courtesy of a Raspberry Pi and some clever
> emulation.That's the thing about bits. Eight of 'em should've been enough for
> anybody.
> 
> Links:
> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64 (link)
> [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_ZX81 (link)
> [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100 (link)
> [4]:
> http://articles.philly.com/2014-04-06/news/48891140_1_computers-vintage-car-show-antique-cars
> (link)
> [5]:
> http://www.northfulton.com/Articles-COMMUNITY-NEWS-c-2014-05-01-203603.114126-sub-Computer-museum-unveils-new-exhibit.html
> (link)
> [6]:
> http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/New-Micro-Museum-opens-Ramsgate/story-21046799-detail/story.html
> (link)
> [7]:
> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/miss-8-bit-gaming-revive-80s-commodore-64-computer-using-raspberry-pi-1444753
> (link)

For my birthday this year, I asked my mom to box up my IIGS and mail it to
me.  It is maxed out with a staggering 8 megabytes of RAM.  I am going to
buy an Apple II Pi to go with it.  This was my first computer, and I still
use the original keyboard (best keyboard ever made incidentally) with a USB
to ADB converter.

Once I trick it out it will be even more awesome.  I am hoping to find a
VGA card for it some day.  Suck it NSA - no vPro / iAMT backdoors in that
hardware!

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#2675

Apple 2s for my callow ant days.


On 5/6/2014 11:40 AM PT, RS Wood typed:

>  From the «8 bits are good enough for anybody» department:
> Title: The Lure of Retro Computing
> Author: zafiro17@pipedot.org
> Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 21:12:09 -0400
> Link: http://pipedot.org/story/2014-05-06/the-lure-of-retro-computing
>
> What's the best computer you ever owned? Step aside with your Core Duo, son,
> and make some room for the gentleman who wants to tell you about his
> Commodore 64[1] . Or Sinclair ZX[2] . Or DEC Terminal[3] .Retro computing is
> hotter than ever, attracting the interest of a whole new generation who takes
> interest in the machines of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. You may have missed the
> Retro Computing Fair[4] in East Philadelphia last month, but that doesn't
> mean you're out of luck. Roswell, Georgia is hosting a Vintage Computing
> Festival[5] next month, and museums dedicated to classic hardware are
> springing up everywhere, like this one[6] in Ramsgate, UK. Most of them are
> the product of their passionate founders who have opened up their personal
> collections.Can't make it anywhere? It's still not too late to play some
> classic Commodore 64 games[7] courtesy of a Raspberry Pi and some clever
> emulation.That's the thing about bits. Eight of 'em should've been enough for
> anybody.
>
> Links:
> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64 (link)
> [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_ZX81 (link)
> [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100 (link)
> [4]: http://articles.philly.com/2014-04-06/news/48891140_1_computers-vintage-car-show-antique-cars (link)
> [5]: http://www.northfulton.com/Articles-COMMUNITY-NEWS-c-2014-05-01-203603.114126-sub-Computer-museum-unveils-new-exhibit.html (link)
> [6]: http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/New-Micro-Museum-opens-Ramsgate/story-21046799-detail/story.html (link)
> [7]: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/miss-8-bit-gaming-revive-80s-commodore-64-computer-using-raspberry-pi-1444753 (link)
>


-- 
"I got worms! That's what we're going to call it. We're going to 
specialize in selling worm farms. You know like ant farms. What's the 
matter, a little tense about the flight?" --Lloyd Christmas (Dumb and 
Dumber movie)
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )         If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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#2709

On Tue, 06 May 2014 18:40:08 +0000, RS Wood wrote:

>  and museums dedicated to classic hardware are
> springing up everywhere, like this one[6] in Ramsgate, UK.

> [6]:
> http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/New-Micro-Museum-opens-Ramsgate/
> story-21046799-detail/story.html

I went along today. Quite small, but very interesting. He has a lot more 
in storage, ut if it takes off he will probably move to larger premises. 
He's particularly interested in educating younger people about the 
history of what they now use.

He has a small part going back to Babbage, etc. Worth a visit if you are 
in the area.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#2724

Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Tue, 06 May 2014 18:40:08 +0000, RS Wood wrote:
> 
>>  and museums dedicated to classic hardware are
>> springing up everywhere, like this one[6] in Ramsgate, UK.
> 
>> [6]:
>> http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/New-Micro-Museum-opens-Ramsgate/
>> story-21046799-detail/story.html
> 
> I went along today. Quite small, but very interesting. He has a lot more 
> in storage, ut if it takes off he will probably move to larger premises. 
> He's particularly interested in educating younger people about the 
> history of what they now use.
> 
> He has a small part going back to Babbage, etc. Worth a visit if you are 
> in the area.
> 
> 

I intend to have a jaunt down to Ramsgate and Margate with my little boy
soon, will likely swing by here. What systems does he have up and running
and playable on?

-- 
Stephen Thomas Cole // Sent from my iPhone

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#2725

On Fri, 09 May 2014 13:34:32 +0000, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

> Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 May 2014 18:40:08 +0000, RS Wood wrote:
>> 
>>>  and museums dedicated to classic hardware are
>>> springing up everywhere, like this one[6] in Ramsgate, UK.
>> 
>>> [6]: http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/New-Micro-Museum-opens-Ramsgate/
>>> story-21046799-detail/story.html
>> 
>> I went along today. Quite small, but very interesting. He has a lot
>> more in storage, ut if it takes off he will probably move to larger
>> premises.
>> He's particularly interested in educating younger people about the
>> history of what they now use.
>> 
>> He has a small part going back to Babbage, etc. Worth a visit if you
>> are in the area.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> I intend to have a jaunt down to Ramsgate and Margate with my little boy
> soon, will likely swing by here. What systems does he have up and
> running and playable on?

Various things...PS2, a Sega thing, some lovely little 3D portable 
things, various consoles I didn't recognise, etc.

Sorry...not much of a gamer!



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#2726

On Fri, 09 May 2014 13:34:32 +0000, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

> Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 May 2014 18:40:08 +0000, RS Wood wrote:
>> 
>>>  and museums dedicated to classic hardware are
>>> springing up everywhere, like this one[6] in Ramsgate, UK.
>> 
>>> [6]: http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/New-Micro-Museum-opens-Ramsgate/
>>> story-21046799-detail/story.html
>> 
>> I went along today. Quite small, but very interesting. He has a lot
>> more in storage, ut if it takes off he will probably move to larger
>> premises.
>> He's particularly interested in educating younger people about the
>> history of what they now use.
>> 
>> He has a small part going back to Babbage, etc. Worth a visit if you
>> are in the area.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> I intend to have a jaunt down to Ramsgate and Margate with my little boy
> soon, will likely swing by here. What systems does he have up and
> running and playable on?

If you want to make a day of it, the Hornby Visitor Centre is a couple of 
miles up the road...



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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