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Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about"

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  Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-10-24 20:41 +0000
    Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-24 23:57 +0300
      Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-10-25 01:55 +0000
        Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-10-26 19:23 +0000
      Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-10-27 22:17 +0200
        Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-27 22:56 +0200
          Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2014-10-28 11:27 +0000
        Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" "D.D." <usenet.xyzzyx@spamgourmet.com> - 2014-10-28 04:34 -0700
          Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-10-31 19:04 +0200
            Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-31 19:51 +0200
              Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-10-31 14:55 -0400
                Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-31 23:48 +0200
                  Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-10-31 18:58 -0400
                    Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-01 01:23 +0200
                      Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-10-31 21:50 -0400
                        Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-01 09:14 +0200
                          Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-01 10:15 -0400
                            Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-01 16:26 +0200
                              Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-01 10:40 -0400
                                Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-11-01 16:07 +0100
                                  Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-01 13:20 -0400
                                    Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-11-01 23:48 +0100
                                      Re: systemd documentation Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-01 19:53 -0400
                                        Re: systemd documentation Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-11-02 01:11 +0100
                                          Re: systemd documentation Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-01 21:25 -0400
                                      Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-02 10:37 +0200
                                        Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-02 10:13 -0500
                                Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-01 18:09 +0200
                                  Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-01 13:16 -0400
                                    Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-01 22:05 +0200
                                      Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2014-11-01 19:39 -0400
                                        Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-02 10:57 +0200
          Re: Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about" Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-11-14 20:21 +0200

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#5429 — Lunduke says "lxde desktop is nothing to write home about"

From the «trollbait is trollbait» department:
Title: Lunduke says the LXDE Desktop is "Nothing to write home about"
Author: zafiro17@pipedot.org
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 17:02:36 -0400
Link: http://pipedot.org/story/2014-10-24/lunduke-says-the-lxde-desktop-is-nothing-to-write-home-about

Somebody just go ahead and call this article a troll. That's essentially what
it is. But heck, maybe it will get some discussion going. Linux pundit Bryan
Lunduke over at Network World has spent some time using the LXDE desktop and
writes, I've used LXDE for weeks, and I'm still having trouble finding much to
say about it. That's not a good sign.[1] What the hell, man?

I feel like, after all this time, I should have something interesting to talk
about. But I just plain don’t.It’s fast, blisteringly fast. And it’s damned
lightweight too. After that, things get pretty boring. LXDE is built on GTK+,
which means GTK-based apps are right at home. So that’s a plus, I suppose.
Though that really isn’t a problem on any desktop environment I’ve tried so
far. But… you know… it’s something that I can write down about it. After
that, things get average and mundane… in a hurry.

I'm not sure what the issue is: in my opinion, LXDE is simple, intuitive, and
stays the heck out of your way so you can work. How can that possible be a
negative? So, go ahead: insult the author. Then the guy who submitted this
article (me) and posted it (me again). Then discuss. I'm verklempt[2].

Links:
[1]: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2838326/opensource-subnet/the-linux-desktop-a-week-review-lxde.html (link)
[2]: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=verklempt (link)

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#5431

RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:

> I'm not sure what the issue is: in my opinion, LXDE is simple, intuitive, and
> stays the heck out of your way so you can work.

LXDE is what I use at home and in the office. I'm happy with it. Here's
the killer features:

 * the focus follow the mouse (because I configured it so)

 * the window close button is in the upper left-hand corner (because I
   configured it so)

 * the middle button maximizes the window vertically (out of the box)

 * you don't have to have one application hog the whole screen


Marko

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#5434

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:

> > I'm not sure what the issue is: in my opinion, LXDE is simple, intuitive, and
> > stays the heck out of your way so you can work.

> LXDE is what I use at home and in the office. I'm happy with it. Here's
> the killer features:

>  * the focus follow the mouse (because I configured it so)

Fvwm - 1995-1996 timeframe - check.  Been using focus follow mouse
since.  Also no click-to-raise so I can type into a window underneath
the current one without having to lift it first.

>  * the window close button is in the upper left-hand corner (because I
>    configured it so)

Don't even have a window close button on my Fvwm2 titlebars - because I
configured it so.  Can put up to ten total buttons (five left side,
five right side), can connect anything from mouse clicks to full blown
menu heirarcies to them.  

>  * the middle button maximizes the window vertically (out of the box)

Don't have that configured.  Middle button is paste instead.

>  * you don't have to have one application hog the whole screen

21 years or so of using X windows systems.  Very very few windows ever
get to be full screen.  And those that do get blown up to full screen
now and then don't stay that way for long.  And usually it's a photo
program when it does happen (xv or gimp).

Have never been able to figure out how people work with everything
maximized.  Or then again, maybe they don't seem to get much done
most times....

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#5449

On 2014-10-25, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>> RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:

> 21 years or so of using X windows systems.  Very very few windows ever
> get to be full screen.  And those that do get blown up to full screen
> now and then don't stay that way for long.  And usually it's a photo
> program when it does happen (xv or gimp).
>
> Have never been able to figure out how people work with everything
> maximized.  Or then again, maybe they don't seem to get much done most
> times....
>
Sounds like I probably work a lot the way you do, and for me Windowmaker
or the virtual console windows are usually the sweet spot (does a
virtual console qualify as 'full screen interface'? /grin).  I still
mess with KDE4 a bit but really the simpler interfaces do everything I
want.  LXDE is great in that regard - works great on low power hardware
and still offers a pretty intuitive interface, virtual desktops, an
Alt-F2 run interface, and a file manager (PCman or Thunar), both of
which work perfectly well.  I struggle to discren what else the fuller
desktops offer by way of benefit above that.

This guy Lunduke is an ass-clown.

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#5456

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>
>> I'm not sure what the issue is: in my opinion, LXDE is simple, intuitive, and
>> stays the heck out of your way so you can work.
>
> LXDE is what I use at home and in the office. I'm happy with it. Here's
> the killer features:
>
>  * the focus follow the mouse (because I configured it so)
>
>  * the window close button is in the upper left-hand corner (because I
>    configured it so)
>
>  * the middle button maximizes the window vertically (out of the box)
>
>  * you don't have to have one application hog the whole screen

Seems pretty basic but focus and max-in-vert are things I like to tweak
too, the latter usually via a double click on the title bar. Couldn't
see a way to config that in LXDE, is it just one of those things you do
in a config file somewhere? Not really into that any more these days,
too many computers to fiddle with config files... I also like to turn
caps lock into control, can LXDE do that? And I don't mean with xmodmap.

What about some laptop stuff? Does power management work in LXDE? As in,
laptop goes to sleep on timer when it's configured to do that? One
annoyance with KDE is that sometimes it won't.

KDE has some issues, I'm not really happy with it. I do like some eye
candy so I use things like transparency and wobbly windows so that's
good but... The system goes to sleep on timer mostly but not
always. Logging out of KDE usually results in a bunch of app crash
notifications, usually kmix and baloo file, whatever that is. The imap
handlers kmail depends on seem to hang sometimes and quit fetching
mail... It's like basic stuff still isn't working right in KDE 4 and KDE
5 is now coming.

Other laptop stuff I usually use is bluetooth support (mouse, keyboard,
file transfers) and network management support including a 3g
modem. When I tried LXDE it showed a wired and wireless connection,
nothing about the modem. Bluetooth apparently is workable with Bluewave.
I guess I can use NetworkManager in LXDE just as well?

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#5457

Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi>:

> Seems pretty basic but focus and max-in-vert are things I like to tweak
> too, the latter usually via a double click on the title bar. Couldn't
> see a way to config that in LXDE, is it just one of those things you do
> in a config file somewhere?

Just middle-click on the maximize icon on the title bar.

> Not really into that any more these days, too many computers to fiddle
> with config files... I also like to turn caps lock into control, can
> LXDE do that? And I don't mean with xmodmap.

Well, I don't think there's a better way to define your keyboard than
xmodmap. My keyboard layout supports Finnish, Swedish, Esperanto,
Spanish and Hebrew, and I have moved {, }, [, ], \ and | to more central
places. LXDE doesn't have support for that built in.

> What about some laptop stuff? Does power management work in LXDE?

When I close the lid, the laptop goes to sleep.

> As in, laptop goes to sleep on timer when it's configured to do that?

Don't know. Never tried. I don't even know if that's the responsibility
of LXDE (or the X server or the window manager or the kernel).

> Other laptop stuff I usually use is bluetooth support (mouse,
> keyboard, file transfers) and network management support including a
> 3g modem. When I tried LXDE it showed a wired and wireless connection,
> nothing about the modem. Bluetooth apparently is workable with
> Bluewave. I guess I can use NetworkManager in LXDE just as well?

My LXDE setup (Fedora 20) is integrated with NetworkManager. What I hate
about NetworkManager is that it needs a GUI to do its work. No way to
use it with headless VMs, for example.

Really, LXDE is just a handful of utilities. I'm not lying much if I say
that LXDE is lxpanel plus lxterminal.


Marko

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#5461

2014-10-27, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Really, LXDE is just a handful of utilities. I'm not lying much if I say
> that LXDE is lxpanel plus lxterminal.

True. I've always thought of it as pre-tweaked and somewhat enhanced
Openbox setup.

-- 
:q!

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#5462

Anssi Saari wrote:
> KDE has some issues, I'm not really happy with it. I do like some eye
> candy so I use things like transparency and wobbly windows so that's
> good but... The system goes to sleep on timer mostly but not
> always. Logging out of KDE usually results in a bunch of app crash
> notifications, usually kmix and baloo file, whatever that is. The imap
> handlers kmail depends on seem to hang sometimes and quit fetching
> mail... It's like basic stuff still isn't working right in KDE 4 and KDE
> 5 is now coming.

My experience has been that how well any particular DE works on my computers is 
heavily influenced by the distro I'm running it on and (separately) whether it 
uses systemd.  If you haven't tried KDE under other unrelated distros with & 
without systemd, I'd recommend doing so ­— you might find that's a big part of 
the problem.

That said, recent releases of KDE are starting to making me unhappy enough that 
I'm starting to feel very tempted to switch to Trinity/KDE 3.x or MATE/GNOME 2. 
  I'm referring to things like Plasma 5's 'add widgets' forced into a vertical 
left-side bar, 4.14's version of Dolphin having a non-removable "Recently 
Accessed" sidebar & no way to hide the "Places" sidebar label, and the GUI for 5 
using flat monochrome SVG icons (which will make it a pain to find/make 
alternatives).

Before anyone suggests it: I don't go with LXDE or Xfce because they don't have 
the customization options I want or need, like transparency with/without 
blurring and full control over window/text colors.  :-p

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#5477

"D.D." <usenet.xyzzyx@spamgourmet.com> writes:

> My experience has been that how well any particular DE works on my
> computers is heavily influenced by the distro I'm running it on and
> (separately) whether it uses systemd.  If you haven't tried KDE under
> other unrelated distros with & without systemd, I'd recommend doing so
> ­— you might find that's a big part of the problem.

Interesting point about systemd. I'm currently running Gentoo-derived
Sabayon but they don't support running without systemd as I recall even
though Gentoo does. I actually grabbed a Ubuntu live CD from Trinity but
with a quick try had no idea how to actually start Trinity... Oh well.

OTOH, Kubuntu 14.10 live ran fine with none of the issues I've been
having with Sabayon. So maybe I'm joining the "systemd is evil"
camp... Looks like I'll be doing some partition gymnastics and
installing Kubuntu on my laptop this weekend.

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#5478

Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi>:

> So maybe I'm joining the "systemd is evil" camp...

I have *strong* doubts concerning systemd, but I'm willing to give a day
in court.

It's very difficult to find information on it, though. We have known the
standard laundry list of writing a UNIX daemon for 40 years (eg, <URL:
http://www.netzmafia.de/skripten/unix/linux-daemon-howto.html>). I want
to know how to write a systemd-aware daemon.

I would imagine a how-to for daemon developers would be the *first*
thing to go public with. Is it buried somewhere here: <URL:
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/>.


Marko

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#5479

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi>:
>
>> So maybe I'm joining the "systemd is evil" camp...
>
> I have *strong* doubts concerning systemd, but I'm willing to give a day
> in court.

So below you say you don't have information.
But you have strong doubts...

> It's very difficult to find information on it, though. We have known the
> standard laundry list of writing a UNIX daemon for 40 years (eg, <URL:
> http://www.netzmafia.de/skripten/unix/linux-daemon-howto.html>). I want
> to know how to write a systemd-aware daemon.

Very easy to find.

> I would imagine a how-to for daemon developers would be the *first*
> thing to go public with. Is it buried somewhere here: <URL:
> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/>.

You found it.
Not buried very deeply.
Looks clear enough to me.
Some likely places for developers:

#3: How Do I Convert A SysV Init Script Into A systemd Service File?
#11: Converting inetd Services
Writing syslog Daemons Which Cooperate Nicely With systemd
The systemd for Developers Series (Parts 1-3)

Today Slashdot discusses the good parts of systemd.
A lot more sensible than "I think I may not like it,
but I don't know what it is.".

-- 
Dan Espen

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#5481

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:

> Some likely places for developers:
>
> #3: How Do I Convert A SysV Init Script Into A systemd Service File?

No, I mean, when do I fork or should I? When do I call _exit() and
what's the meaning of the exit code. Are there other communication
channels from the daemon to systemd? If so what are the policies? Does
systemd define states for the daemon to be in? Should the daemon start a
new process group? session?


Marko

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#5482

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:
>
>> Some likely places for developers:
>>
>> #3: How Do I Convert A SysV Init Script Into A systemd Service File?
>
> No, I mean, when do I fork or should I? When do I call _exit() and
> what's the meaning of the exit code. Are there other communication
> channels from the daemon to systemd? If so what are the policies? Does
> systemd define states for the daemon to be in? Should the daemon start a
> new process group? session?

What makes you think the answers to those questions are not there?

I tried a search using 'systemd daemon fork' and found:

http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html

Type=

    Configures the process  start-up type for this service  unit. One of
    simple, forking, oneshot, dbus, notify or idle.

Looks like you can fork or do a range of other things.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#5483

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:

> What makes you think the answers to those questions are not there?

No need for that attitude. Just give the answers if you have them.

> I tried a search using 'systemd daemon fork' and found:
>
> http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html
>
> Type=
>
>     Configures the process  start-up type for this service  unit. One of
>     simple, forking, oneshot, dbus, notify or idle.
>
> Looks like you can fork or do a range of other things.

That looks to me like just some sysadmin stuff.

Is a native systemd family daemon written any differently from a classic
linux/unix daemon? How does systemd know a service is up and running? A
zero exit code from the daemon foreground process? Or is the daemon
supposed to call some D-Bus facility?

What are the different interactions between systemd and the daemon?


Marko

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#5486

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:
>
>> What makes you think the answers to those questions are not there?
>
> No need for that attitude. Just give the answers if you have them.
>
>> I tried a search using 'systemd daemon fork' and found:
>>
>> http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html
>>
>> Type=
>>
>>     Configures the process  start-up type for this service  unit. One of
>>     simple, forking, oneshot, dbus, notify or idle.
>>
>> Looks like you can fork or do a range of other things.
>
> That looks to me like just some sysadmin stuff.

The original page clearly identifies it's audience.
There was quite of bit of info for developers.

> Is a native systemd family daemon written any differently from a classic
> linux/unix daemon? How does systemd know a service is up and running? A
> zero exit code from the daemon foreground process? Or is the daemon
> supposed to call some D-Bus facility?
>
> What are the different interactions between systemd and the daemon?

How much of the documentation do you want me to read to you?

-- 
Dan Espen

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#5495

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:

> How much of the documentation do you want me to read to you?

You could write a tiny systemd-compliant toy daemon in C or Python, say,
and post it here. Alternatively, you could post a link to such an
example on the Web.


Marko

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#5498

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:
>
>> How much of the documentation do you want me to read to you?
>
> You could write a tiny systemd-compliant toy daemon in C or Python, say,
> and post it here. Alternatively, you could post a link to such an
> example on the Web.

Have fun:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Services

-- 
Dan Espen

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#5499

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>> You could write a tiny systemd-compliant toy daemon in C or Python,
>> say, and post it here. Alternatively, you could post a link to such
>> an example on the Web.
>
> Have fun:
>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Services

Thanks, but there's not a single line of daemon source code there.


Marko

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#5500

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:
>
>> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>>> You could write a tiny systemd-compliant toy daemon in C or Python,
>>> say, and post it here. Alternatively, you could post a link to such
>>> an example on the Web.
>>
>> Have fun:
>>
>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Services
>
> Thanks, but there's not a single line of daemon source code there.

Are you looking at the links I post?

At least one of those daemons is xautolock.
Tell me you don't know how to find the source code for xautolock.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#5501

Hallöchen!

Dan Espen writes:

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>:
>>
>>> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> You could write a tiny systemd-compliant toy daemon in C or
>>>> Python, say, and post it here. Alternatively, you could post a
>>>> link to such an example on the Web.
>>>
>>> Have fun:
>>>
>>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Services
>>
>> Thanks, but there's not a single line of daemon source code there.
>
> Are you looking at the links I post?
>
> At least one of those daemons is xautolock.
> Tell me you don't know how to find the source code for xautolock.

I wouldn't call this sensible documentation nevertheless.

Tschö,
Torsten.

-- 
Torsten Bronger    Jabber ID: torsten.bronger@jabber.rwth-aachen.de
                                  or http://bronger-jmp.appspot.com

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