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Do you like the current design of python.org?

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  Do you like the current design of python.org? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-12-04 18:09 +0100
    Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-05 21:43 +1100
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? "Fetchinson ." <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2014-12-05 12:30 +0100
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2014-12-05 09:11 -0500
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-12-05 18:04 -0700
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-12-05 18:05 -0700
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-12-08 23:31 -0800
        Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-12-09 10:07 +0100
          Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-12-09 01:29 -0800
        Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-12-09 16:53 +0200
        Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? "Fetchinson ." <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2014-12-09 16:58 +0100
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-12-09 12:24 -0800
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-12-09 13:37 -0700
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? "Fetchinson ." <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2014-12-09 22:13 +0100
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? "Fetchinson ." <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2014-12-09 22:16 +0100
        Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-10 11:19 +1100
      Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-10 08:21 +1100
        Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-10 11:16 +1100
          Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-10 11:27 +1100
            Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? "Christoph M. Becker" <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-12-10 01:43 +0100
              Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-10 11:52 +1100
              Re: Do you like the current design of python.org? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-12-10 15:08 +1100

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#81921 — Do you like the current design of python.org?

Did you ever hit the "Socialize" button? Are you eager to see the latest 
tweets when you are reading a PEP? Do you run away screaming from a page 
where nothing moves without you hitting a button? Do you appreciate the 
choice between ten or so links to the documentation?

You can probably guess my opinion -- konqueror just crashed on the PEP index 
and for some reason I'm more annoyed about the page than about the browser.


PS: Is there a twitter.com something that I can block to trade black friday 
and cyber monkey sales for a box with a good old error message?

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#81995

Peter Otten wrote:

> Did you ever hit the "Socialize" button? Are you eager to see the latest
> tweets when you are reading a PEP? Do you run away screaming from a page
> where nothing moves without you hitting a button? Do you appreciate the
> choice between ten or so links to the documentation?

I dislike the new design of python.org.

The formatting of long text essays get completely mangled towards the bottom
of the page, e.g.:

https://www.python.org/download/releases/2.2/descrintro

Many links are broken. When you click on the broken link, it says that it
has been reported and will be fixed, but weeks later it remains broken,
e.g.: 

https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py


It requires Javascript or else basic functionality fails. With Javascript,
basic functionality fails too, but in a much more entertaining and exciting
way, as in "I'm trying to click a button on that menu, why does the screen
keep refreshing and hiding the menu before I can click?".

I'm not terribly impressed by the design or the colour scheme, it's way
too "web 2.0", i.e. simultaneously pretentious and dumbed down.

But most of all, I despise the menus that pop up covering what I am trying
to read the page just because I happened to move the mouse over a button. I
loathe the practice of stuffing content into menus instead of using links
to individual web pages. And I hold nothing but scorn for the fact that the
main page has a slideshow.

But none of that even gets close to the spitting fury I feel when I see
the "Socialise" links. With the possible exception of the link to
http://irc.freenode.net/ which at least has the vague excuse that there is
a #python channel, not that a visitor to the python.org website has any way
to learn this.

Oh, I've just discovered that when you click in the search box, a perfectly
serviceable search box, it automatically expands by about 20%, just
because. Urge to kill rising...

 
> You can probably guess my opinion -- konqueror just crashed on the PEP
> index and for some reason I'm more annoyed about the page than about the
> browser.
> 
> 
> PS: Is there a twitter.com something that I can block to trade black
> friday and cyber monkey sales for a box with a good old error message?

I love konquorer as a file manager, but I've come to the conclusion that
Firefox is the absolute worst web browser available, except for all the
rest. Firefox has a wonderful plugin, No Script, which lets you block
Javascript and other nonsense on a per-site basis.

I love me my No Script. Browsing the web is so painful without it.




-- 
Steven

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#81997

>> Did you ever hit the "Socialize" button?

No, but it doesn't bother me.

>> Are you eager to see the latest
>> tweets when you are reading a PEP?

No, but it doesn't bother me either. You can easily block twitter
related things by a number of ways, firewalls, /etc/hosts, etc.

>> Do you run away screaming from a page
>> where nothing moves without you hitting a button? Do you appreciate the
>> choice between ten or so links to the documentation?

No, but it doesn't bother me at all.

> I dislike the new design of python.org.

I actually love it a lot! Big improvement over the previous site I think.

> The formatting of long text essays get completely mangled towards the
> bottom
> of the page, e.g.:
>
> https://www.python.org/download/releases/2.2/descrintro

It doesn't look mangled to me (firefox 22).

> Many links are broken. When you click on the broken link, it says that it
> has been reported and will be fixed, but weeks later it remains broken,
> e.g.:
>
> https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py

What makes you think that this page is ought to return actual content?

> It requires Javascript or else basic functionality fails. With Javascript,
> basic functionality fails too, but in a much more entertaining and exciting
> way, as in "I'm trying to click a button on that menu, why does the screen
> keep refreshing and hiding the menu before I can click?".

I never encountered screen refreshings that I did not trigger myself.

> I'm not terribly impressed by the design or the colour scheme, it's way
> too "web 2.0", i.e. simultaneously pretentious and dumbed down.

I think it looks great! We agree to disagree I guess; see more below.

> But most of all, I despise the menus that pop up covering what I am trying
> to read the page just because I happened to move the mouse over a button. I
> loathe the practice of stuffing content into menus instead of using links
> to individual web pages. And I hold nothing but scorn for the fact that the
> main page has a slideshow.

And what would you estimate, how many standard deviations are you away
from the average viewer of python.org in terms of these metrics (where
the metrics are like/dislike of menus, like/dislike of mouse moving,
like/dislike of unexpected browser behavior, like/dislike of links,
like/dislike of slide shows, etc.)?

> But none of that even gets close to the spitting fury I feel when I see
> the "Socialise" links. With the possible exception of the link to
> http://irc.freenode.net/ which at least has the vague excuse that there is
> a #python channel, not that a visitor to the python.org website has any way
> to learn this.

And what would you estimate, how many standard deviations are you away
from the average viewer of python.org in terms of these metrics (where
now the metrics are like/dislike of social links, social websites,
etc.)?

> Oh, I've just discovered that when you click in the search box, a perfectly
> serviceable search box, it automatically expands by about 20%, just
> because.

And that is a problem because?

> Urge to kill rising...

I didn't see the disclaimer "No living thing was harmed while typing
this email." below your message so I'm kinda worried!

Cheers,
Daniel


>> You can probably guess my opinion -- konqueror just crashed on the PEP
>> index and for some reason I'm more annoyed about the page than about the
>> browser.
>>
>>
>> PS: Is there a twitter.com something that I can block to trade black
>> friday and cyber monkey sales for a box with a good old error message?
>
> I love konquorer as a file manager, but I've come to the conclusion that
> Firefox is the absolute worst web browser available, except for all the
> rest. Firefox has a wonderful plugin, No Script, which lets you block
> Javascript and other nonsense on a per-site basis.
>
> I love me my No Script. Browsing the web is so painful without it.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Steven
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


-- 
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown

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#82004

> On Dec 5, 2014, at 5:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> Peter Otten wrote:
> 
>> Did you ever hit the "Socialize" button? Are you eager to see the latest
>> tweets when you are reading a PEP? Do you run away screaming from a page
>> where nothing moves without you hitting a button? Do you appreciate the
>> choice between ten or so links to the documentation?
> 
> I dislike the new design of python.org.
> 
> The formatting of long text essays get completely mangled towards the bottom
> of the page, e.g.:
> 
> https://www.python.org/download/releases/2.2/descrintro

I’m not sure what you are referring to here.  That page looks fine all the way to the bottom of the footer on my system, looking at it with either Firefox or Safari.

-Bill

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#82029

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On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:30 AM, Fetchinson . <fetchinson@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> > The formatting of long text essays get completely mangled towards the
> > bottom
> > of the page, e.g.:
> >
> > https://www.python.org/download/releases/2.2/descrintro
>
> It doesn't look mangled to me (firefox 22).

That's quite old at this point, considering that the current extended
support release is 31 and the previous one was 24. You should consider
upgrading for security fixes if nothing else.

As to the subject at hand, the page also looks fine to me in Chrome 39.

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#82030

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On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> It requires Javascript or else basic functionality fails.

In what way does basic functionality fail? I just tried loading the page
with Javascript disabled and it seemed fine.

> With Javascript,
> basic functionality fails too, but in a much more entertaining and
exciting
> way, as in "I'm trying to click a button on that menu, why does the screen
> keep refreshing and hiding the menu before I can click?".

I've not encountered this myself.

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#82187

On Friday, December 5, 2014 4:13:27 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> But most of all, I despise the menus that pop up covering what I am trying
> to read the page just because I happened to move the mouse over a button. I
> loathe the practice of stuffing content into menus instead of using links
> to individual web pages. And I hold nothing but scorn for the fact that the
> main page has a slideshow.

I thought I'd argue against this (and the general tenor of these complaints)
Tried to click on the > in what looked like a console session

and for the last 5 minutes I am staring at
Loading console ...

with the L in a different color...

Pretty... but not exactly what I expect in an interactive console.

Lest it seem like I am agreeing with these complaints, I'd like to say:
Either python goes this way or the way of Fortran and Cobol.

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#82189

Rustom Mody wrote:

> On Friday, December 5, 2014 4:13:27 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> But most of all, I despise the menus that pop up covering what I am
>> trying to read the page just because I happened to move the mouse over a
>> button. I loathe the practice of stuffing content into menus instead of
>> using links to individual web pages. And I hold nothing but scorn for the
>> fact that the main page has a slideshow.
> 
> I thought I'd argue against this (and the general tenor of these
> complaints) Tried to click on the > in what looked like a console session
> 
> and for the last 5 minutes I am staring at
> Loading console ...
> 
> with the L in a different color...
> 
> Pretty... but not exactly what I expect in an interactive console.
> 
> Lest it seem like I am agreeing with these complaints, I'd like to say:
> Either python goes this way or the way of Fortran and Cobol.

You mean if Cobol had a shiny but disfunctional website we'd be using that 
instead of Python? That python.org is fear-driven design? 

OK, let's make an appearance on Myspace then...

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#82190

On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 2:37:59 PM UTC+5:30, Peter Otten wrote:
> Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> > On Friday, December 5, 2014 4:13:27 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >> But most of all, I despise the menus that pop up covering what I am
> >> trying to read the page just because I happened to move the mouse over a
> >> button. I loathe the practice of stuffing content into menus instead of
> >> using links to individual web pages. And I hold nothing but scorn for the
> >> fact that the main page has a slideshow.
> > 
> > I thought I'd argue against this (and the general tenor of these
> > complaints) Tried to click on the > in what looked like a console session
> > 
> > and for the last 5 minutes I am staring at
> > Loading console ...
> > 
> > with the L in a different color...
> > 
> > Pretty... but not exactly what I expect in an interactive console.
> > 
> > Lest it seem like I am agreeing with these complaints, I'd like to say:
> > Either python goes this way or the way of Fortran and Cobol.
> 
> You mean if Cobol had a shiny but disfunctional website we'd be using that 
> instead of Python? That python.org is fear-driven design? 

Among other things I mean...
1. 'Dysfunctional' can mean one of
  a. Intrinsically terrible idea
  b. Teething troubles
  c. Some linear combination of the above
  d. More likely non-linear 

2. In our field, success correlates poorly with technical excellence.
For examples you may consider
  a. A certain large Redmond company
  b. JS vs python on (???) metric

[This must be somebody-or-others' law -- dunno who. Sturgeon's law is the closest I can get]

3. The rheostat can slide on many points between fear-driven and passion/innovation-driven design.

> 
> OK, let's make an appearance on Myspace then...

Heh! [Also see 3 above]

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#82200

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> Pretty... but not exactly what I expect in an interactive console.

I have to agree although the console works for me. But shame on the site
maintainers though, the interactive console comes up with Python 3.3.6
instead of current 3.4.2 (and IPython 2.10, also not the latest).

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#82203

>> Lest it seem like I am agreeing with these complaints, I'd like to say:
>> Either python goes this way or the way of Fortran and Cobol.
>
> You mean if Cobol had a shiny but disfunctional website we'd be using that
> instead of Python?

Why would he mean that?

If !A implies !B, it does *not* follow that A implies B.

Here A = "shiny website" and B = "success".

Cheers,
Daniel


-- 
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown

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#82236

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 12/05/2014 03:30 AM, Fetchinson responded to
> Steven D'Aprano's rant of:
>> 
>> Many links are broken. When you click on the broken link, it says that it
>> has been reported and will be fixed, but weeks later it remains broken,
>> e.g.:
>>
>> https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py
> 
> What makes you think that this page is ought to return actual content?

Could you rephrase that question?  The way it's worded at the moment is like going to a restaurant, ordering some food,
having the plate of food put in front of you, trying to eat the food and getting nothing but air, and then having the
waiter say, "What makes you think there would be actual substance?"


> And what would you estimate, how many standard deviations are you away
> from the average viewer of python.org in terms of these metrics (where
> the metrics are like/dislike of menus, like/dislike of mouse moving,
> like/dislike of unexpected browser behavior, like/dislike of links,
> like/dislike of slide shows, etc.)?

I am reminded of the quote by Edsger W. Dijkstra:

  Simplicity and elegance are unpopular because they require
  hard work and discipline to achieve and education to be
  appreciated.

--
~Ethan~

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#82237

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:30 AM, Fetchinson . <fetchinson@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> > Many links are broken. When you click on the broken link, it says that
it
> > has been reported and will be fixed, but weeks later it remains broken,
> > e.g.:
> >
> > https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py
>
> What makes you think that this page is ought to return actual content?

The page at https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/ links to it. The
fact that something on the same site links to it is a good indication that
there ought to be something at the other end of the link.

The content that is expected to be found there can still be found at the
legacy site: http://legacy.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py

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#82238

>> > Many links are broken. When you click on the broken link, it says that
> it
>> > has been reported and will be fixed, but weeks later it remains broken,
>> > e.g.:
>> >
>> > https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py
>>
>> What makes you think that this page is ought to return actual content?
>
> The page at https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/ links to it. The
> fact that something on the same site links to it is a good indication that
> there ought to be something at the other end of the link.

I see, thanks, this was the missing piece of information, I didn't
know there are links to that page.

Cheers,
Daniel


> The content that is expected to be found there can still be found at the
> legacy site: http://legacy.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py
>


-- 
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown

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#82239

On 12/9/14, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 12/05/2014 03:30 AM, Fetchinson responded to
>> Steven D'Aprano's rant of:
>>>
>>> Many links are broken. When you click on the broken link, it says that
>>> it
>>> has been reported and will be fixed, but weeks later it remains broken,
>>> e.g.:
>>>
>>> https://www.python.org/doc/essays/metaclasses/Eiffel.py
>>
>> What makes you think that this page is ought to return actual content?
>
> Could you rephrase that question?  The way it's worded at the moment is like
> going to a restaurant, ordering some food,
> having the plate of food put in front of you, trying to eat the food and
> getting nothing but air, and then having the
> waiter say, "What makes you think there would be actual substance?"

As Ian pointed out in another message in this thread there is a link
on python.org that points to the above page. I did not know this. So
when I read that a link is broken, to me it sounded like, hey, there
isn't any content at https://python.org/some/bla/bla/bla/random/stuff
which made me ask why does the OP think there should be anything. If
there are no links to it, it's fine, if there is one (or more) then of
course it's not fine. Apparently the case is the latter.

Cheers,
Daniel


>
>> And what would you estimate, how many standard deviations are you away
>> from the average viewer of python.org in terms of these metrics (where
>> the metrics are like/dislike of menus, like/dislike of mouse moving,
>> like/dislike of unexpected browser behavior, like/dislike of links,
>> like/dislike of slide shows, etc.)?
>
> I am reminded of the quote by Edsger W. Dijkstra:
>
>   Simplicity and elegance are unpopular because they require
>   hard work and discipline to achieve and education to be
>   appreciated.
>
> --
> ~Ethan~
>
>


-- 
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown

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#82246

Fetchinson . wrote:

> So
> when I read that a link is broken, to me it sounded like, hey, there
> isn't any content at https://python.org/some/bla/bla/bla/random/stuff
> which made me ask why does the OP think there should be anything.


You should have the courtesy of assuming I'm not a total idiot. Why would I
think that https://python.org/some/bla/bla/bla/random/stuff would do
anything but give a 404? Even YouTube commentators know that you can't try
random stuff into a URL and expect a useful page to appear.



-- 
Steven

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#82241

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 8:16 AM, Fetchinson . <fetchinson@googlemail.com> wrote:
> As Ian pointed out in another message in this thread there is a link
> on python.org that points to the above page. I did not know this. So
> when I read that a link is broken, to me it sounded like, hey, there
> isn't any content at https://python.org/some/bla/bla/bla/random/stuff
> which made me ask why does the OP think there should be anything. If
> there are no links to it, it's fine, if there is one (or more) then of
> course it's not fine. Apparently the case is the latter.
>

I believe this is a bug, not a design flaw. There've been a few others
like it (PEPs with missing images, for instance), and the best thing
to do is raise an issue on the github project page:

https://github.com/python/pythondotorg

ChrisA

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#82245

Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 8:16 AM, Fetchinson . <fetchinson@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>> As Ian pointed out in another message in this thread there is a link
>> on python.org that points to the above page. I did not know this. So
>> when I read that a link is broken, to me it sounded like, hey, there
>> isn't any content at https://python.org/some/bla/bla/bla/random/stuff
>> which made me ask why does the OP think there should be anything. If
>> there are no links to it, it's fine, if there is one (or more) then of
>> course it's not fine. Apparently the case is the latter.
>>
> 
> I believe this is a bug, not a design flaw. There've been a few others
> like it (PEPs with missing images, for instance), and the best thing
> to do is raise an issue on the github project page:
> 
> https://github.com/python/pythondotorg


The flaw is that when you get a 404, it claims that the maintainers have
been notified, but they apparently don't do anything about it. They should
be fixing broken links without waiting for somebody to raise an issue.
Otherwise, what's the point of being notified?

It's actually worse than that. By telling the end user that the maintainers
have been notified, they *discourage* people from raising an issue. Why
raise an issue for something that is already being attended too?



-- 
Steven

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#82249

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> The flaw is that when you get a 404, it claims that the maintainers have
> been notified, but they apparently don't do anything about it. They should
> be fixing broken links without waiting for somebody to raise an issue.
> Otherwise, what's the point of being notified?
>
> It's actually worse than that. By telling the end user that the maintainers
> have been notified, they *discourage* people from raising an issue. Why
> raise an issue for something that is already being attended too?

Okay, *that* is a design flaw. Though personally, I never believe
those "maintainers have been notified" pages. I mean, anyone can go
looking at their server error logs, but how many people *get
notified*?? And when does it *ever* result in prompt fixing of errors?

So even if this is the one site on the entire internet where that's
true, I'd be inclined to drop that text, because it's pretty much
useless.

ChrisA

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#82250

Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> The flaw is that when you get a 404, it claims that the maintainers have
>> been notified, but they apparently don't do anything about it. They should
>> be fixing broken links without waiting for somebody to raise an issue.
>> Otherwise, what's the point of being notified?
>>
>> It's actually worse than that. By telling the end user that the maintainers
>> have been notified, they *discourage* people from raising an issue. Why
>> raise an issue for something that is already being attended too?
> 
> Okay, *that* is a design flaw. Though personally, I never believe
> those "maintainers have been notified" pages. I mean, anyone can go
> looking at their server error logs, but how many people *get
> notified*?? And when does it *ever* result in prompt fixing of errors?
> 
> So even if this is the one site on the entire internet where that's
> true, I'd be inclined to drop that text, because it's pretty much
> useless.

It seems to me that text can't be useless.  Either it is useful (because
it conveys correct information) or it is harmful (because it keeps
visitors from submitting an explicit bug report).

-- 
Christoph M. Becker

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