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A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]

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  A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024] Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-05-27 19:58 +0200
    Re: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024] Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-05-27 20:01 +0200
    Scryer Prolog is dead now? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-20 11:35 +0200
      What about the Holy Grail? (Was: Scryer Prolog is dead now?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-21 17:29 +0200
        Is Rust the culprit? (Was: What about the Holy Grail?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-22 22:16 +0200
          Re: Is Rust the culprit? (Was: What about the Holy Grail?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-22 22:26 +0200
            Re: Is Rust the culprit? (Was: What about the Holy Grail?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-22 22:38 +0200
          Night Train to Lisbon (Re: Is Rust the culprit?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-10-18 01:35 +0200
            Prolog System running on JS/Bun ? (Was: Night Train to Lisbon) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-20 14:20 +0100
          Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment (Was: Is Rust the culprit?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-10-26 17:43 +0200
            Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 03:16 +0100
              Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 03:24 +0100
                Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 03:28 +0100
                  Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 03:54 +0100
              they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 16:47 +0100
                Re: they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 17:00 +0100
                  Re: they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 17:11 +0100
                    Re: they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-11-15 18:00 +0100
    Can we trust the Scryer Prolog Gurus? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… ) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 00:27 +0200
      Re: Can we trust the Scryer Prolog Gurus? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… ) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 00:30 +0200
        Re: Can we trust the Scryer Prolog Gurus? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… ) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 00:42 +0200
    The longest pregnancy in the history of Prolog ~~> DCGs (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 09:51 +0200
      Re: The longest pregnancy in the history of Prolog ~~> DCGs (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 09:52 +0200
        Re: The longest pregnancy in the history of Prolog ~~> DCGs (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 10:18 +0200
          Re: The longest pregnancy in the history of Prolog ~~> DCGs (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 10:20 +0200
            Re: The longest pregnancy in the history of Prolog ~~> DCGs (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 16:38 +0200
    Is Scryer Prolog the Air Guitar of Prolog? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 21:56 +0200
      Re: Is Scryer Prolog the Air Guitar of Prolog? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-23 23:49 +0200
        Re: Is Scryer Prolog the Air Guitar of Prolog? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-24 22:21 +0200
    Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-26 15:38 +0200
      Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-26 15:41 +0200
        Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-27 11:27 +0200
          Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-27 11:36 +0200
            Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-27 11:52 +0200
              Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-27 11:56 +0200
                Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-27 12:04 +0200
                  Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-27 12:09 +0200
                    Re: Did Lifeware Kill Scryer Prolog CLP(Z) ? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2024-07-27 12:54 +0200

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#14035 — A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… [FORTRAN / TIOBE Index for May 2024]

Especially since good old FORTRAN has
made a new appearance:

TIOBE Index for May 2024
I have received a lot of questions why Fortran entered the top 10
again after more than 20 years. The TIOBE index just publishes
what has been measured.
https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

Why Fortran is back in TIOBE’s top 10
First, Fortran is especially good at numerical analysis and
computational mathematics. Numerical and mathematical
computing is growing because interest in artificial intelligence
is growing, Jansen told TechRepublic in an email.
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/tiobe-index-may-2024/

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#14036

Time to dig out Colmerauers/Russells original Prolog
implementation in FORTRAN from the 1970's?

 > The first interpreter was written in Algol-W (1972),
with later interpreters written in FORTRAN (1973)! and
Pascal (1976). Though the Marseilles group and the
Edinburgh group collaborated until the mid-1970's,
they subequently went their own ways, leading to the
development of two families of Prolog dialects, each
with its own syntax. The Mareseilles dialect has
become largely extinct, though.
https://www.cs.gordon.edu/courses/cs323/PROLOG/prolog.html

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Especially since good old FORTRAN has
> made a new appearance:
> 
> TIOBE Index for May 2024
> I have received a lot of questions why Fortran entered the top 10
> again after more than 20 years. The TIOBE index just publishes
> what has been measured.
> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
> 
> Why Fortran is back in TIOBE’s top 10
> First, Fortran is especially good at numerical analysis and
> computational mathematics. Numerical and mathematical
> computing is growing because interest in artificial intelligence
> is growing, Jansen told TechRepublic in an email.
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/tiobe-index-may-2024/

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#14068 — Scryer Prolog is dead now? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now…)

Anybody tried to combine raylib with SWI-Prolog.
Like programming snake or something? Like here:

Raylib bindings to Scryer Prolog using library(ffi)
https://github.com/aarroyoc/raylib-prolog

Strange: Somehow I have the feeling Scryer Prolog is
in a hybernation now, they sit on 270 issues and there

are no code changes anymore? Is it dead now?

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Especially since good old FORTRAN has
> made a new appearance:
> 
> TIOBE Index for May 2024
> I have received a lot of questions why Fortran entered the top 10
> again after more than 20 years. The TIOBE index just publishes
> what has been measured.
> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
> 
> Why Fortran is back in TIOBE’s top 10
> First, Fortran is especially good at numerical analysis and
> computational mathematics. Numerical and mathematical
> computing is growing because interest in artificial intelligence
> is growing, Jansen told TechRepublic in an email.
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/tiobe-index-may-2024/

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#14072 — What about the Holy Grail? (Was: Scryer Prolog is dead now?)

Somebody wondered on SWI discourse:

 > Prolog and the holy grail :+1:

This slogan didn’t grow in my backyard. See for example here:

Constraint Programming: In Pursuit of the Holy Grail
Roman Barták - 1999
https://ktiml.mff.cuni.cz/~bartak/downloads/WDS99.pdf

But now that Scryer Prolog is dead, some of their 270 GitHub
issues deals with performance problems(*) of their various CLPs,

I guess they need new a fresh start.

(*) Example:
https://github.com/mthom/scryer-prolog/issues/1730


Mild Shock schrieb:
> Anybody tried to combine raylib with SWI-Prolog.
> Like programming snake or something? Like here:
> 
> Raylib bindings to Scryer Prolog using library(ffi)
> https://github.com/aarroyoc/raylib-prolog
> 
> Strange: Somehow I have the feeling Scryer Prolog is
> in a hybernation now, they sit on 270 issues and there
> 
> are no code changes anymore? Is it dead now?
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Especially since good old FORTRAN has
>> made a new appearance:
>>
>> TIOBE Index for May 2024
>> I have received a lot of questions why Fortran entered the top 10
>> again after more than 20 years. The TIOBE index just publishes
>> what has been measured.
>> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
>>
>> Why Fortran is back in TIOBE’s top 10
>> First, Fortran is especially good at numerical analysis and
>> computational mathematics. Numerical and mathematical
>> computing is growing because interest in artificial intelligence
>> is growing, Jansen told TechRepublic in an email.
>> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/tiobe-index-may-2024/
> 

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#14075 — Is Rust the culprit? (Was: What about the Holy Grail?)

Maybe Scryer Prolog is a failure, because Rust
is a failure. Building Scryer Prolog on my machine,
after a git pull of a small change, did just

take this much time:

$ time cargo build --release
[...]
real    6m52.663s
user    7m39.043s
sys     0m3.241s

What did Rust do? And this tabling test case,
2000 shuttle, hangs:

/* Scryer Prolog 0.9.4-107 */
?- use_module(library(tabling)).
    true.
?- [user].
:- table c/1.
c(X) :- c(Y), 0 =< Y, Y < 20000, X is -Y-1.
c(X) :- c(Y), -20000 < Y, Y =< 0, X is -Y+1.
c(0).

?- time(c(_)).
%%% hangs ? %%%

It is solved in a blink in SWI-Prolog:

/* SWI-Prolog 9.3.8 */
?- time(c(_)).
% 540,077 inferences, 0.047 CPU in 0.051 seconds (92% CPU, 11521643 Lips)
true .

The test case is from here:

https://github.com/JanWielemaker/tabling_benchmarks/tree/master

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#14076 — Re: Is Rust the culprit? (Was: What about the Holy Grail?)

If Rust is the culprit, I guess it isn't
due to this speculation:

Imagine Rust failed, why did it fail?
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/c93upr/imagine_rust_failed_why_did_it_fail/

"climate change causes massively increased methane
offgassing in the Arctic, causing a runaway greenhouse
effect that eventually turns Earth into Venus,
destroying the biosphere before rust
can gain widespread adoption"

There are other signs that Rust is a failure, like here:

Why Rust is Making You Fail. --> 1.1k Claps
https://medium.com/@ChadJohnsonOfficial/why-rust-is-stopping-your-success-use-c-and-c-instead-586dc7e2edbc

And here:

Should we call Rust a failed programming language? --> 10.5 views
https://www.quora.com/Should-we-call-Rust-a-failed-programming-language

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Maybe Scryer Prolog is a failure, because Rust
> is a failure. Building Scryer Prolog on my machine,
> after a git pull of a small change, did just
> 
> take this much time:
> 
> $ time cargo build --release
> [...]
> real    6m52.663s
> user    7m39.043s
> sys     0m3.241s
> 
> What did Rust do? And this tabling test case,
> 2000 shuttle, hangs:
> 
> /* Scryer Prolog 0.9.4-107 */
> ?- use_module(library(tabling)).
>     true.
> ?- [user].
> :- table c/1.
> c(X) :- c(Y), 0 =< Y, Y < 20000, X is -Y-1.
> c(X) :- c(Y), -20000 < Y, Y =< 0, X is -Y+1.
> c(0).
> 
> ?- time(c(_)).
> %%% hangs ? %%%
> 
> It is solved in a blink in SWI-Prolog:
> 
> /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.8 */
> ?- time(c(_)).
> % 540,077 inferences, 0.047 CPU in 0.051 seconds (92% CPU, 11521643 Lips)
> true .
> 
> The test case is from here:
> 
> https://github.com/JanWielemaker/tabling_benchmarks/tree/master

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#14077 — Re: Is Rust the culprit? (Was: What about the Holy Grail?)

Most likely Rust has not high performance computing
on its mind. This here looks horrible, and is the
same nightmare as in Go:

https://jondot.medium.com/errors-in-rust-a-formula-1e3e9a37d207

I would never port or realize a Prolog system on a
programming language and runtime, that doesn't offer
clever and efficient exception handling.

You don't get clever and efficient exception handling if you
shuffel around tuples. Althoug some of recent nodeJS
async programming had a similar flavor.

But still JavaScript has solid exception handling,
and so does Java and Python.

Mild Shock schrieb:
> If Rust is the culprit, I guess it isn't
> due to this speculation:
> 
> Imagine Rust failed, why did it fail?
> https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/c93upr/imagine_rust_failed_why_did_it_fail/ 
> 
> 
> "climate change causes massively increased methane
> offgassing in the Arctic, causing a runaway greenhouse
> effect that eventually turns Earth into Venus,
> destroying the biosphere before rust
> can gain widespread adoption"
> 
> There are other signs that Rust is a failure, like here:
> 
> Why Rust is Making You Fail. --> 1.1k Claps
> https://medium.com/@ChadJohnsonOfficial/why-rust-is-stopping-your-success-use-c-and-c-instead-586dc7e2edbc 
> 
> 
> And here:
> 
> Should we call Rust a failed programming language? --> 10.5 views
> https://www.quora.com/Should-we-call-Rust-a-failed-programming-language
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Maybe Scryer Prolog is a failure, because Rust
>> is a failure. Building Scryer Prolog on my machine,
>> after a git pull of a small change, did just
>>
>> take this much time:
>>
>> $ time cargo build --release
>> [...]
>> real    6m52.663s
>> user    7m39.043s
>> sys     0m3.241s
>>
>> What did Rust do? And this tabling test case,
>> 2000 shuttle, hangs:
>>
>> /* Scryer Prolog 0.9.4-107 */
>> ?- use_module(library(tabling)).
>>     true.
>> ?- [user].
>> :- table c/1.
>> c(X) :- c(Y), 0 =< Y, Y < 20000, X is -Y-1.
>> c(X) :- c(Y), -20000 < Y, Y =< 0, X is -Y+1.
>> c(0).
>>
>> ?- time(c(_)).
>> %%% hangs ? %%%
>>
>> It is solved in a blink in SWI-Prolog:
>>
>> /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.8 */
>> ?- time(c(_)).
>> % 540,077 inferences, 0.047 CPU in 0.051 seconds (92% CPU, 11521643 Lips)
>> true .
>>
>> The test case is from here:
>>
>> https://github.com/JanWielemaker/tabling_benchmarks/tree/master
> 

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#14240 — Night Train to Lisbon (Re: Is Rust the culprit?)

Hi,

what is wrong with rust and linux????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2OKdv4SPdQ

Pure souls are getting purrified to become even purer.

Bye

P.S.: Zig moves to fast for the kernel?
https://ziglang.org/learn/overview/

How about a new Prolog system written in Zip?

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Maybe Scryer Prolog is a failure, because Rust
> is a failure. Building Scryer Prolog on my machine,
> after a git pull of a small change, did just
> 
> take this much time:
> 
> $ time cargo build --release
> [...]
> real    6m52.663s
> user    7m39.043s
> sys     0m3.241s
> 
> What did Rust do? And this tabling test case,
> 2000 shuttle, hangs:
> 
> /* Scryer Prolog 0.9.4-107 */
> ?- use_module(library(tabling)).
>     true.
> ?- [user].
> :- table c/1.
> c(X) :- c(Y), 0 =< Y, Y < 20000, X is -Y-1.
> c(X) :- c(Y), -20000 < Y, Y =< 0, X is -Y+1.
> c(0).
> 
> ?- time(c(_)).
> %%% hangs ? %%%
> 
> It is solved in a blink in SWI-Prolog:
> 
> /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.8 */
> ?- time(c(_)).
> % 540,077 inferences, 0.047 CPU in 0.051 seconds (92% CPU, 11521643 Lips)
> true .
> 
> The test case is from here:
> 
> https://github.com/JanWielemaker/tabling_benchmarks/tree/master

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14304 — Prolog System running on JS/Bun ? (Was: Night Train to Lisbon)

Hi,

Strange things happen in the Zig world:

Bun is a JavaScript runtime, package manager,
test runner and bundler built from scratch using
the Zig programming language. It was designed by
Jarred Sumner as a drop-in replacement for Node.js.
Bun uses WebKit's JavaScriptCore as the JavaScript
engine, unlike Node.js and Deno, which both use V8.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bun_(software)

Should give a try via Dogelog Player for JavaScript.

Python/PyPy (2.288s)
Js/Node (1.595s)
C/clang -O0 (1.566s)
Go (1.528s)
Js/Bun (1.434s)
1 Billion nested loop iterations
https://benjdd.com/loops2/

The above is a micro benchmark, might not give an
indicative whether Bun will choke or not. Lets see.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> what is wrong with rust and linux????
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2OKdv4SPdQ
> 
> Pure souls are getting purrified to become even purer.
> 
> Bye
> 
> P.S.: Zig moves to fast for the kernel?
> https://ziglang.org/learn/overview/
> 
> How about a new Prolog system written in Zip?
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Maybe Scryer Prolog is a failure, because Rust
>> is a failure. Building Scryer Prolog on my machine,
>> after a git pull of a small change, did just
>>
>> take this much time:
>>
>> $ time cargo build --release
>> [...]
>> real    6m52.663s
>> user    7m39.043s
>> sys     0m3.241s
>>
>> What did Rust do? And this tabling test case,
>> 2000 shuttle, hangs:
>>
>> /* Scryer Prolog 0.9.4-107 */
>> ?- use_module(library(tabling)).
>>     true.
>> ?- [user].
>> :- table c/1.
>> c(X) :- c(Y), 0 =< Y, Y < 20000, X is -Y-1.
>> c(X) :- c(Y), -20000 < Y, Y =< 0, X is -Y+1.
>> c(0).
>>
>> ?- time(c(_)).
>> %%% hangs ? %%%
>>
>> It is solved in a blink in SWI-Prolog:
>>
>> /* SWI-Prolog 9.3.8 */
>> ?- time(c(_)).
>> % 540,077 inferences, 0.047 CPU in 0.051 seconds (92% CPU, 11521643 Lips)
>> true .
>>
>> The test case is from here:
>>
>> https://github.com/JanWielemaker/tabling_benchmarks/tree/master
> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14246 — Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment (Was: Is Rust the culprit?)

Hey folks, please take note:

"Rust is the last programming language made for humans
that we'll need. Future languages will be optimized for
machines, where AI handles all the coding"
https://twitter.com/nath_simard/status/1816147809608851830

Sounds like utter bullshit to me. Must be a
stupid AI, that cannot do the the safety precautions
of Rust. Why would I need rust, if I have an AI?

For this exampe, the AI might generate:

#include <stdio.h>

int main(int argc, char* argv[]) {
    printf("Hello %s\n", argv[0]);
}

Which might indeed generate a segfault. In
case there are zero arguments, argv[0] might
hafve the value NULL.
https://www.tu-chemnitz.de/urz/archiv/kursunterlagen/C/kap3/argmain.htm

So why blame the target language, and not the AI?
This is a red herring argument in favor of Rust.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14291 — Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment)

Hi,

The cest pool of bit rot is finally gone:

(Bit rot, because they did everything in a
facist way ignoring your copyright to prevent
you from deleting you own out dated stuff)

CoincidenceIDontThinkSo
https://9gag.com/gag/abAG4oE

The Fall of Stack Overflow
https://observablehq.com/@ayhanfuat/the-fall-of-stack-overflow

The downfall is related to the appearance of
ChatGPT. I feel pitty for Ulrich Neumerkel false
and others who spammed stackoverflow for years

with their infinite dif/2 nonsense.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hey folks, please take note:
> 
> "Rust is the last programming language made for humans
> that we'll need. Future languages will be optimized for
> machines, where AI handles all the coding"
> https://twitter.com/nath_simard/status/1816147809608851830
> 
> Sounds like utter bullshit to me. Must be a
> stupid AI, that cannot do the the safety precautions
> of Rust. Why would I need rust, if I have an AI?
> 
> For this exampe, the AI might generate:
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> 
> int main(int argc, char* argv[]) {
>     printf("Hello %s\n", argv[0]);
> }
> 
> Which might indeed generate a segfault. In
> case there are zero arguments, argv[0] might
> hafve the value NULL.
> https://www.tu-chemnitz.de/urz/archiv/kursunterlagen/C/kap3/argmain.htm
> 
> So why blame the target language, and not the AI?
> This is a red herring argument in favor of Rust.
> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14292 — Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment)

But ChatGPT has still to learn a lot, it
cannot make the link from Prolog to
lambda-Prolog to natural deduction.

Somehow after some questioning ChatGPT
presented me this Prolog code:

likes(john, pizza).
likes(mary, sushi).
likes(sam, burgers).

friend(john, mary).
friend(mary, sam).

likes_what_friends_like(Person, Thing) :-
     friend(Person, Friend),
     likes(Friend, Thing).

I then asked for a Prolog query that
solves the following question:

"who should john befriend so that we
can assume he likes burgers"

Interestingly ChatGPT strated using
Prolog and natural deduction on the meta
level, mentioning modus ponense, and answering

Proof via Natural Deduction:
Assumption: Assume friend(john, X) (where X = sam).

Apply the Rule: Since friend(john, sam) is true, and likes(sam, burgers) 
is also true, we apply the rule likes_what_friends_like(john, Thing) and 
infer likes_what_friends_like(john, burgers).

Conclusion: Therefore, likes_what_friends_like(john, burgers) holds, 
which implies that John would like burgers if he befriends Sam.


Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> The cest pool of bit rot is finally gone:
> 
> (Bit rot, because they did everything in a
> facist way ignoring your copyright to prevent
> you from deleting you own out dated stuff)
> 
> CoincidenceIDontThinkSo
> https://9gag.com/gag/abAG4oE
> 
> The Fall of Stack Overflow
> https://observablehq.com/@ayhanfuat/the-fall-of-stack-overflow
> 
> The downfall is related to the appearance of
> ChatGPT. I feel pitty for Ulrich Neumerkel false
> and others who spammed stackoverflow for years
> 
> with their infinite dif/2 nonsense.
> 
> Bye

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14293 — Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment)

My objection was then that Prolog didn't do
the proof only ChatGPT did it.

"But Prolog is supposed to search for proofs.
What is the proof?"

It then continued with attempts like:

what_if_befriend(Person, Friend, Goal) :-
     assert(friend(Person, Friend)),  % Assert the new friendship
     Goal,  % Check the goal with the new friendship
     retract(friend(Person, Friend)).  % Retract after checking the goal

Only the above will not work, since
assert/1 cannot return a variable binding.

So what is the magic behind lambda-Prolog
and hypothetical reasoning? lambda-Prolog
not being in the scope of ChatGPT?

Mild Shock schrieb:
> But ChatGPT has still to learn a lot, it
> cannot make the link from Prolog to
> lambda-Prolog to natural deduction.
> 
> Somehow after some questioning ChatGPT
> presented me this Prolog code:
> 
> likes(john, pizza).
> likes(mary, sushi).
> likes(sam, burgers).
> 
> friend(john, mary).
> friend(mary, sam).
> 
> likes_what_friends_like(Person, Thing) :-
>      friend(Person, Friend),
>      likes(Friend, Thing).
> 
> I then asked for a Prolog query that
> solves the following question:
> 
> "who should john befriend so that we
> can assume he likes burgers"
> 
> Interestingly ChatGPT strated using
> Prolog and natural deduction on the meta
> level, mentioning modus ponense, and answering
> 
> Proof via Natural Deduction:
> Assumption: Assume friend(john, X) (where X = sam).
> 
> Apply the Rule: Since friend(john, sam) is true, and likes(sam, burgers) 
> is also true, we apply the rule likes_what_friends_like(john, Thing) and 
> infer likes_what_friends_like(john, burgers).
> 
> Conclusion: Therefore, likes_what_friends_like(john, burgers) holds, 
> which implies that John would like burgers if he befriends Sam.
> 
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The cest pool of bit rot is finally gone:
>>
>> (Bit rot, because they did everything in a
>> facist way ignoring your copyright to prevent
>> you from deleting you own out dated stuff)
>>
>> CoincidenceIDontThinkSo
>> https://9gag.com/gag/abAG4oE
>>
>> The Fall of Stack Overflow
>> https://observablehq.com/@ayhanfuat/the-fall-of-stack-overflow
>>
>> The downfall is related to the appearance of
>> ChatGPT. I feel pitty for Ulrich Neumerkel false
>> and others who spammed stackoverflow for years
>>
>> with their infinite dif/2 nonsense.
>>
>> Bye

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14294 — Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow (Was: Highly bred Hackers: Wallowing in enlightenment)

How it started:

An exciting day! @spolsky called me and let me
know. Today's sale of Stack Overflow, most importantly,
lets Stack Overflow continue as an independent site --
and also mints 61 new millionaires.
Jeff Atwood - 6:47 PM · Jun 2, 2021
https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1400132013068218370

How its going:

Stack Overflow cuts 28% of its staff
https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/17/stack-overflow-cuts-28-of-its-staff/

Mild Shock schrieb:
> My objection was then that Prolog didn't do
> the proof only ChatGPT did it.
> 
> "But Prolog is supposed to search for proofs.
> What is the proof?"
> 
> It then continued with attempts like:
> 
> what_if_befriend(Person, Friend, Goal) :-
>      assert(friend(Person, Friend)),  % Assert the new friendship
>      Goal,  % Check the goal with the new friendship
>      retract(friend(Person, Friend)).  % Retract after checking the goal
> 
> Only the above will not work, since
> assert/1 cannot return a variable binding.
> 
> So what is the magic behind lambda-Prolog
> and hypothetical reasoning? lambda-Prolog
> not being in the scope of ChatGPT?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14296 — they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow)

Hi,

Yes exactly, they shoot themselves into the foot.
They adopted the academic closed world attitute,
as can be seen here, not noticing that the John

Doe programmers are not necessarily a theoretical
computer science titanic A-class member:

As an example, consider this question – invented, but not far-fetched:
"Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?"
This is a low-quality question, in my view.
https://codeblog.jonskeet.uk/2018/03/17/stack-overflow-culture/

Now try the same with ChatGPT:

Q: Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?

A: It sounds like your Random object might not be
re-seeded, which could cause it to generate the same
sequence of numbers every time you run your program.
By default, Random is seeded with the current time in
  milliseconds, but if you create it multiple times in
quick succession, it might receive the same seed and
generate the same numbers.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> The cest pool of bit rot is finally gone:
> 
> (Bit rot, because they did everything in a
> facist way ignoring your copyright to prevent
> you from deleting you own out dated stuff)
> 
> CoincidenceIDontThinkSo
> https://9gag.com/gag/abAG4oE
> 
> The Fall of Stack Overflow
> https://observablehq.com/@ayhanfuat/the-fall-of-stack-overflow
> 
> The downfall is related to the appearance of
> ChatGPT. I feel pitty for Ulrich Neumerkel false
> and others who spammed stackoverflow for years
> 
> with their infinite dif/2 nonsense.
> 
> Bye

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14297 — Re: they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow)

Hi,

I personally like that ChatGPT tolerates all my
sloppiness, since I am always in a hurry, don't
have time for some bullshit.

And I pay the bill by myself, if ChatGPT doesn't
understand me. I don't need some moderator to
force some ideal into my throat, anyway

most of the time ChatGPT understands me
nevertheless. Has probably to do how
the artificial intelligenc of ChatGPT works:

Attention Is All You Need
https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

But stack overflow gets also drained by other
developments like for example:

- Thousends of tutorial web sites:
   There is a real cottage industry, of
   commercial web sites, that explain you
   web programming etc.. They are commercial
   since they show banner ads.

- Thousends of tutorial videos:
   There is a similar cottage industry
   for videos. Also commercial because
   the show ads. Even google search
   doesn't show stack overflow as first
   result anymore.

- Declining Business Model Job Search
   With "low code", the number of programmer
   jobs as we know it will go down. A website
   specialized on job advertising will automatically
   loose revenue:

https://stackoverflow.co/advertising/

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> Yes exactly, they shoot themselves into the foot.
> They adopted the academic closed world attitute,
> as can be seen here, not noticing that the John
> 
> Doe programmers are not necessarily a theoretical
> computer science titanic A-class member:
> 
> As an example, consider this question – invented, but not far-fetched:
> "Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?"
> This is a low-quality question, in my view.
> https://codeblog.jonskeet.uk/2018/03/17/stack-overflow-culture/
> 
> Now try the same with ChatGPT:
> 
> Q: Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?
> 
> A: It sounds like your Random object might not be
> re-seeded, which could cause it to generate the same
> sequence of numbers every time you run your program.
> By default, Random is seeded with the current time in
>   milliseconds, but if you create it multiple times in
> quick succession, it might receive the same seed and
> generate the same numbers.
> 
> Bye
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The cest pool of bit rot is finally gone:
>>
>> (Bit rot, because they did everything in a
>> facist way ignoring your copyright to prevent
>> you from deleting you own out dated stuff)
>>
>> CoincidenceIDontThinkSo
>> https://9gag.com/gag/abAG4oE
>>
>> The Fall of Stack Overflow
>> https://observablehq.com/@ayhanfuat/the-fall-of-stack-overflow
>>
>> The downfall is related to the appearance of
>> ChatGPT. I feel pitty for Ulrich Neumerkel false
>> and others who spammed stackoverflow for years
>>
>> with their infinite dif/2 nonsense.
>>
>> Bye

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14298 — Re: they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow)

Hi,

Also Stack Overflow is very bad in reading
the signs of the times:

Generative AI is now integral to the
technologist workflow, yet many developers
are still skeptical. According to our 2024
#Developer Survey, 79% of respondents cited
misinformation as their primary ethical
concern regarding AI.
https://x.com/stackoverflow/

The survey is not so bad:
https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2024/ai

So they have it right in front of their
nose that they should shut down

their grammar nazi nonsense and find
new ways, alternative ways to harness

and curate knowlegde?

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> I personally like that ChatGPT tolerates all my
> sloppiness, since I am always in a hurry, don't
> have time for some bullshit.
> 
> And I pay the bill by myself, if ChatGPT doesn't
> understand me. I don't need some moderator to
> force some ideal into my throat, anyway
> 
> most of the time ChatGPT understands me
> nevertheless. Has probably to do how
> the artificial intelligenc of ChatGPT works:
> 
> Attention Is All You Need
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762
> 
> But stack overflow gets also drained by other
> developments like for example:
> 
> - Thousends of tutorial web sites:
>    There is a real cottage industry, of
>    commercial web sites, that explain you
>    web programming etc.. They are commercial
>    since they show banner ads.
> 
> - Thousends of tutorial videos:
>    There is a similar cottage industry
>    for videos. Also commercial because
>    the show ads. Even google search
>    doesn't show stack overflow as first
>    result anymore.
> 
> - Declining Business Model Job Search
>    With "low code", the number of programmer
>    jobs as we know it will go down. A website
>    specialized on job advertising will automatically
>    loose revenue:
> 
> https://stackoverflow.co/advertising/
> 
> Bye
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Yes exactly, they shoot themselves into the foot.
>> They adopted the academic closed world attitute,
>> as can be seen here, not noticing that the John
>>
>> Doe programmers are not necessarily a theoretical
>> computer science titanic A-class member:
>>
>> As an example, consider this question – invented, but not far-fetched:
>> "Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?"
>> This is a low-quality question, in my view.
>> https://codeblog.jonskeet.uk/2018/03/17/stack-overflow-culture/
>>
>> Now try the same with ChatGPT:
>>
>> Q: Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?
>>
>> A: It sounds like your Random object might not be
>> re-seeded, which could cause it to generate the same
>> sequence of numbers every time you run your program.
>> By default, Random is seeded with the current time in
>>   milliseconds, but if you create it multiple times in
>> quick succession, it might receive the same seed and
>> generate the same numbers.
>>
>> Bye
>>
>> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> The cest pool of bit rot is finally gone:
>>>
>>> (Bit rot, because they did everything in a
>>> facist way ignoring your copyright to prevent
>>> you from deleting you own out dated stuff)
>>>
>>> CoincidenceIDontThinkSo
>>> https://9gag.com/gag/abAG4oE
>>>
>>> The Fall of Stack Overflow
>>> https://observablehq.com/@ayhanfuat/the-fall-of-stack-overflow
>>>
>>> The downfall is related to the appearance of
>>> ChatGPT. I feel pitty for Ulrich Neumerkel false
>>> and others who spammed stackoverflow for years
>>>
>>> with their infinite dif/2 nonsense.
>>>
>>> Bye
> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14299 — Re: they shoot themselves into the foot (Re: Good Bye Stack-Overflow)

Or just give up Q&A sites all together. They
live in a bubble that they sit on a treasure.

Any clue why? Simply because text will pretty soon
not be mandatory anymore for training of Chat bots:

Early 2000s: Automatic transcription services were
rudimentary, relying on basic speech recognition
software with limited accuracy.

2010s: The technology began to improve significantly
with the development of deep learning and neural
networks. Platforms like YouTube introduced automatic
captions in 2006, but they were often unreliable
and required manual corrections.

2016–2018: Major tech companies, including Google and
Microsoft, launched more advanced speech-to-text
services. These platforms utilized machine learning
algorithms and large datasets to provide more
  accurate transcriptions.

2020–2023: With advancements in AI and natural language
processing (NLP), transcription services became much
more accurate and widely available. Companies like Rev,
Otter.ai, and others began offering services with high
accuracy and specialized features (such as speaker
identification, real-time transcription, and more).

But ChatGPT isn't there yet?

Although ChatGPT itself is not directly trained
on video data, multimodal models (such as GPT-4's
ability to process images) are paving the way for
broader applications of video-based learning in AI.

So the cottage industry of training videos
will be the next target of knowledge harvesting?
Directly incorporating your professors lectures?

LoL

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> Also Stack Overflow is very bad in reading
> the signs of the times:
> 
> Generative AI is now integral to the
> technologist workflow, yet many developers
> are still skeptical. According to our 2024
> #Developer Survey, 79% of respondents cited
> misinformation as their primary ethical
> concern regarding AI.
> https://x.com/stackoverflow/
> 
> The survey is not so bad:
> https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2024/ai
> 
> So they have it right in front of their
> nose that they should shut down
> 
> their grammar nazi nonsense and find
> new ways, alternative ways to harness
> 
> and curate knowlegde?
> 
> Bye
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I personally like that ChatGPT tolerates all my
>> sloppiness, since I am always in a hurry, don't
>> have time for some bullshit.
>>
>> And I pay the bill by myself, if ChatGPT doesn't
>> understand me. I don't need some moderator to
>> force some ideal into my throat, anyway
>>
>> most of the time ChatGPT understands me
>> nevertheless. Has probably to do how
>> the artificial intelligenc of ChatGPT works:
>>
>> Attention Is All You Need
>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762
>>
>> But stack overflow gets also drained by other
>> developments like for example:
>>
>> - Thousends of tutorial web sites:
>>    There is a real cottage industry, of
>>    commercial web sites, that explain you
>>    web programming etc.. They are commercial
>>    since they show banner ads.
>>
>> - Thousends of tutorial videos:
>>    There is a similar cottage industry
>>    for videos. Also commercial because
>>    the show ads. Even google search
>>    doesn't show stack overflow as first
>>    result anymore.
>>
>> - Declining Business Model Job Search
>>    With "low code", the number of programmer
>>    jobs as we know it will go down. A website
>>    specialized on job advertising will automatically
>>    loose revenue:
>>
>> https://stackoverflow.co/advertising/
>>
>> Bye
>>
>> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Yes exactly, they shoot themselves into the foot.
>>> They adopted the academic closed world attitute,
>>> as can be seen here, not noticing that the John
>>>
>>> Doe programmers are not necessarily a theoretical
>>> computer science titanic A-class member:
>>>
>>> As an example, consider this question – invented, but not far-fetched:
>>> "Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?"
>>> This is a low-quality question, in my view.
>>> https://codeblog.jonskeet.uk/2018/03/17/stack-overflow-culture/
>>>
>>> Now try the same with ChatGPT:
>>>
>>> Q: Random keeps giving me the same numbers. Is it broken?
>>>
>>> A: It sounds like your Random object might not be
>>> re-seeded, which could cause it to generate the same
>>> sequence of numbers every time you run your program.
>>> By default, Random is seeded with the current time in
>>>   milliseconds, but if you create it multiple times in
>>> quick succession, it might receive the same seed and
>>> generate the same numbers.
>>>
>>> Bye
>>>
>>> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> The cest pool of bit rot is finally gone:
>>>>
>>>> (Bit rot, because they did everything in a
>>>> facist way ignoring your copyright to prevent
>>>> you from deleting you own out dated stuff)
>>>>
>>>> CoincidenceIDontThinkSo
>>>> https://9gag.com/gag/abAG4oE
>>>>
>>>> The Fall of Stack Overflow
>>>> https://observablehq.com/@ayhanfuat/the-fall-of-stack-overflow
>>>>
>>>> The downfall is related to the appearance of
>>>> ChatGPT. I feel pitty for Ulrich Neumerkel false
>>>> and others who spammed stackoverflow for years
>>>>
>>>> with their infinite dif/2 nonsense.
>>>>
>>>> Bye
>>
> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14078 — Can we trust the Scryer Prolog Gurus? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… )

For example one Guru claimed?

 > Prolog were invented today, I think there would
 > be at least two significant differences:
 >
 > First, the type-testing predicates like atom/1,
 > integer/1 and compound/1 would (and should) throw
 > instantiation errors if their arguments are not
 > sufficiently instantiated.
 >
 > This is also what the original versions of Prolog
 > did. However, DEC 10 Prolog chose to replace instantiation
 > errors by silent failures, and this has been
 > perpetuated in the Edinburgh tradition for type tests
 > including the ISO standard.
https://www.quora.com/If-prolog-were-being-invented-today-with-no-concern-for-backward-compatibility-or-the-existing-standardization-how-would-it-differ-from-standard-prolog

I cannot verify any of the above nonsense.

First of all the term "DEC-10 Prolog" is ambigious:

DEC 10 Prolog 1975
https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/prolog/prolog/edinburgh/doc/Warren-Epilog_400_400-1975.pdf

DEC 10 Prolog 1982
https://userweb.fct.unl.pt/~lmp/publications/online-papers/DECsystem-10%20PROLOG%20USER%27S%20MANUAL.pdf

The DEC 10 Prolog 1975 looks very close to Prolog 0
with its french predicate names. There is not a simgle
atom/1, integer/1 equivalent that would throw an

instantiation error. Actually Prolog 0 didn't even
have some sort of exceptions, right?

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Especially since good old FORTRAN has
> made a new appearance:
> 
> TIOBE Index for May 2024
> I have received a lot of questions why Fortran entered the top 10
> again after more than 20 years. The TIOBE index just publishes
> what has been measured.
> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
> 
> Why Fortran is back in TIOBE’s top 10
> First, Fortran is especially good at numerical analysis and
> computational mathematics. Numerical and mathematical
> computing is growing because interest in artificial intelligence
> is growing, Jansen told TechRepublic in an email.
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/tiobe-index-may-2024/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#14079 — Re: Can we trust the Scryer Prolog Gurus? (Was: A harsh wind is blowing into the face of Prolog now… )

That the DEC 10 Prolog 1975 is close to Prolog 0,
can be verified by reading the Prolog 0 manual:

MANUEL DE REFE RE NeE ET D'UTILISATION - PROLOG
ROUSSEL Ph. (1975)
http://alain.colmerauer.free.fr/alcol/ArchivesPublications/ManuelProlog/Pr.pdf

So at that same year there was already an
English rip-off. If I read the french, I also
don't find some atom/1, integer/1 equivalent

that would throw an instantiation error. Problem
is again, what would have been an exception in Prolog 0?

Mild Shock schrieb:
> For example one Guru claimed?
> 
>  > Prolog were invented today, I think there would
>  > be at least two significant differences:
>  >
>  > First, the type-testing predicates like atom/1,
>  > integer/1 and compound/1 would (and should) throw
>  > instantiation errors if their arguments are not
>  > sufficiently instantiated.
>  >
>  > This is also what the original versions of Prolog
>  > did. However, DEC 10 Prolog chose to replace instantiation
>  > errors by silent failures, and this has been
>  > perpetuated in the Edinburgh tradition for type tests
>  > including the ISO standard.
> https://www.quora.com/If-prolog-were-being-invented-today-with-no-concern-for-backward-compatibility-or-the-existing-standardization-how-would-it-differ-from-standard-prolog 
> 
> 
> I cannot verify any of the above nonsense.
> 
> First of all the term "DEC-10 Prolog" is ambigious:
> 
> DEC 10 Prolog 1975
> https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/prolog/prolog/edinburgh/doc/Warren-Epilog_400_400-1975.pdf 
> 
> 
> DEC 10 Prolog 1982
> https://userweb.fct.unl.pt/~lmp/publications/online-papers/DECsystem-10%20PROLOG%20USER%27S%20MANUAL.pdf 
> 
> 
> The DEC 10 Prolog 1975 looks very close to Prolog 0
> with its french predicate names. There is not a simgle
> atom/1, integer/1 equivalent that would throw an
> 
> instantiation error. Actually Prolog 0 didn't even
> have some sort of exceptions, right?
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Especially since good old FORTRAN has
>> made a new appearance:
>>
>> TIOBE Index for May 2024
>> I have received a lot of questions why Fortran entered the top 10
>> again after more than 20 years. The TIOBE index just publishes
>> what has been measured.
>> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
>>
>> Why Fortran is back in TIOBE’s top 10
>> First, Fortran is especially good at numerical analysis and
>> computational mathematics. Numerical and mathematical
>> computing is growing because interest in artificial intelligence
>> is growing, Jansen told TechRepublic in an email.
>> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/tiobe-index-may-2024/
> 

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