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(nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ?

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  (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> - 2019-08-26 10:20 +0200
    Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2019-08-26 11:38 +0200
      Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> - 2019-08-26 13:02 +0200
        Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2019-08-26 11:43 -0400
          Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> - 2019-08-26 18:33 +0200
            Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2019-08-26 16:05 -0400
              Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> - 2019-08-27 10:44 +0200
                Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-08-27 13:47 +0100
                  Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> - 2019-08-27 18:07 +0200
                Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2019-08-28 12:31 -0400
                  Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> - 2019-08-28 21:33 +0200
                    Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2019-08-29 13:51 -0400
                      Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? "R.Wieser" <address@not.available> - 2019-08-29 21:20 +0200
                        Re: (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2019-08-30 10:00 -0400

#18049 — (nntp.)aioe.org doesn't reach (all) other servers ?

Hello all,

A few times now I have posted replies (in this and other newsgroups) to see 
them "ignored", only to see the same advice pop up later on in the thread 
(as in "Beginner question on using PHP and POST").

As such I get the feeling that my posts on aioe.org might simply not be 
visible on all other nntp servers (even though theirs are visible on 
aioe.org!).   Can anybody confirm this ?   And if so which other free 
newsserver could I use instead ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18050

R.Wieser wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> A few times now I have posted replies (in this and other newsgroups) to see 
> them "ignored", only to see the same advice pop up later on in the thread 
> (as in "Beginner question on using PHP and POST").
> 
> As such I get the feeling that my posts on aioe.org might simply not be 
> visible on all other nntp servers (even though theirs are visible on 
> aioe.org!).   Can anybody confirm this ?   And if so which other free 
> newsserver could I use instead ?


It's known as Warnock's dilemma. ;-)

Jeroen Belleman

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#18051

Jeroen,

> It's known as Warnock's dilemma. ;-)

:-) I wish that where true.

But as I already said, the info I gave is being reposted a bit later on by 
somebody else.  And sometimes even acknowledged as useful (not.(yet) in this 
case though).

Ofcourse, it is possible that the other(s) just posted their stuff without 
having read the other replies first ....

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18052

On 8/26/2019 7:02 AM, R.Wieser wrote:
> Jeroen,
> 
>> It's known as Warnock's dilemma. ;-)
> 
> :-) I wish that where true.
> 
> But as I already said, the info I gave is being reposted a bit later on by
> somebody else.  And sometimes even acknowledged as useful (not.(yet) in this
> case though).
> 
> Ofcourse, it is possible that the other(s) just posted their stuff without
> having read the other replies first ....
> 
> Regards,
> Rudy Wieser
> 
> 

That happens a lot.  People look at the question and post without 
looking at the answers.

For free servers I use eternal-september.org.  They have a few 
restrictions - mainly no binary attachments or groups, but that's never 
been a problem for me.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#18053

Jerry,

>> Ofcourse, it is possible that the other(s) just posted their stuff 
>> without having read the other replies first ....
...
> That happens a lot.  People look at the question and post without looking 
> at the answers.

Indeed, that happens.  Though it became a bit remarkable (of sorts) when I 
saw an OP respond to the later posts, but not mine.   Hence my "they did not 
see it" feeling.

> For free servers I use eternal-september.org.

I've heard about them before.  It doesn't hurt to have another look, even 
though I don't really like bogus* "sign up" procedures (you got me, I 
already took a peek. :-) ).

*if all I need to provide is an email addres which is alive long enough to 
receive a password (and a(ny) random username) than I consider the whole 
thing to be bogus - as new email adresses (let alone usernames) are a dime a 
dozen.

> They have a few restrictions - mainly no binary attachments or groups, but 
> that's never been a problem for me.

There was a short time in my life I thought that having binary attachments 
was a neccessity - like ZIP files containing program code.   But over the 
years I've seldom had use for them.

A question though: You specifically mention no /binary/ attachments.   Are 
text attachments generally allowed on nntp servers (and if so, are Base64 
encoded attachments considered to be binary or text ? :-) ).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18054

On 8/26/2019 12:33 PM, R.Wieser wrote:
> Jerry,
> 
>>> Ofcourse, it is possible that the other(s) just posted their stuff
>>> without having read the other replies first ....
> ...
>> That happens a lot.  People look at the question and post without looking
>> at the answers.
> 
> Indeed, that happens.  Though it became a bit remarkable (of sorts) when I
> saw an OP respond to the later posts, but not mine.   Hence my "they did not
> see it" feeling.
> 
>> For free servers I use eternal-september.org.
> 
> I've heard about them before.  It doesn't hurt to have another look, even
> though I don't really like bogus* "sign up" procedures (you got me, I
> already took a peek. :-) ).
> 
> *if all I need to provide is an email addres which is alive long enough to
> receive a password (and a(ny) random username) than I consider the whole
> thing to be bogus - as new email adresses (let alone usernames) are a dime a
> dozen.
> 
>> They have a few restrictions - mainly no binary attachments or groups, but
>> that's never been a problem for me.
> 
> There was a short time in my life I thought that having binary attachments
> was a neccessity - like ZIP files containing program code.   But over the
> years I've seldom had use for them.
> 
> A question though: You specifically mention no /binary/ attachments.   Are
> text attachments generally allowed on nntp servers (and if so, are Base64
> encoded attachments considered to be binary or text ? :-) ).
> 
> Regards,
> Rudy Wieser
> 
> 

I've been using them for several years and have received maybe 3-4 
emails from them, all directly relating to their service.  They do not 
spam you with all kinds of junk.

You can use text attachments, although not all servers may accept them. 
   Binary attachments would automatically be base64 encoded/decoded by 
your news reader software.  But if you do it yourself, it would go over 
as text and would have to be manually decoded on the receiving end.  But 
if I need to send a text attachment I'll generally post it to 
pastebin.com and reference it in my message.

If I ever do need to send some binary information I'll do it via email, 
and I'll never accept a binary file via usenet.  Just too many ways to 
get infected.  So their limitation doesn't bother me in the least.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#18055

Jerry,

> I've been using them for several years and have received maybe 3-4 emails 
> from them, all directly relating to their service.  They do not spam you 
> with all kinds of junk.

:-)  Short-lived email adresses will ofcourse also cut any spammer short.

But thats not it:  If someone locks a door and requires you to have a key, 
but you know that you can just grab /any/ key and it will open it, why do 
they require a key to begin with ?

> You can use text attachments, although not all servers may accept them.

I take it that also means that they might disappear when the message gets 
propagated to other nntp servers. :-\

>   Binary attachments would automatically be base64 encoded/decoded by your 
> news reader software.

:-p  I was joking there.

> But if you do it yourself, it would go over as text and would have to be 
> manually decoded on the receiving end

I'm not so sure if a client would not notice the blob already being base64 
encoded, and as a result just insert the blob without encoding it again ....

And I actually fully expect the server to catch such envelope-in-envelope 
construction, and scan the inner content regardless.

... though the extra action required by the user of having to decode the 
inner envelope (with external software) will ofcourse protect the "if its 
clickable than click it" crowd.

> But if I need to send a text attachment I'll generally post it to 
> pastebin.com and reference it in my message.

Alas, that road became unpassable for me when those fileservers started to 
require the usage of JS.   You mentioned "never accept a binary file via 
usenet" ?   I do not accept JS for pretty-much the same reason: random 
programs that I cannot even vet before they are executed.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser 

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#18056

"R.Wieser" <address@not.available> writes:

> Jerry,
>
>> I've been using them for several years and have received maybe 3-4 emails 
>> from them, all directly relating to their service.  They do not spam you 
>> with all kinds of junk.
>
> :-)  Short-lived email adresses will ofcourse also cut any spammer short.
>
> But thats not it:  If someone locks a door and requires you to have a key, 
> but you know that you can just grab /any/ key and it will open it, why do 
> they require a key to begin with ?

I don't follow.  ES (as they are often known) want to know what account
to close if you use their service inappropriately and so that readers
can link posts together.  Whilst you can cut the key yourself (you pick
the email address and the password) you have to use that key once cut.
The sign-up is deliberately non-trivial so you don't post with a new
identity every time.

<cut>
>> But if I need to send a text attachment I'll generally post it to 
>> pastebin.com and reference it in my message.
>
> Alas, that road became unpassable for me when those fileservers started to 
> require the usage of JS.   You mentioned "never accept a binary file via 
> usenet" ?   I do not accept JS for pretty-much the same reason: random 
> programs that I cannot even vet before they are executed.

It does not have to be pastebin.com.  I usually upload files to my
hosting account and put up a link to that.

-- 
Ben.

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#18057

Ben,

> ES (as they are often known) want to know what account
> to close if you use their service inappropriately

What good does that do if you can pick up a new key with little to no effort 
?

Its like taking a kookie away from your kid, but leaving the jar in easy 
reach - actually giving off the wrong signal.

> The sign-up is deliberately non-trivial so you don't post with
> a new identity every time.

I beg to differ.   Picking up a new, or even just a (very) temporary email 
address is peanuts.   Heck, even though my ISP makes me go thru multiple 
webpages its far from a complex procedure.   Using a web service for a very 
temporary one is even easier.

> It does not have to be pastebin.com.

Ofcourse not.   Though most similar services also demand JS to be enabled.

> I usually upload files to my hosting account and put up a link to that.

If you actually have something to host than being able to serve a few files 
from there is an additional benefit.

I haven't got anything to host though, and can probably count the "hmmm, 
would be nice if I would have had it" on the fingers of a single hand - in 
over two decades.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18058

On 8/27/2019 4:44 AM, R.Wieser wrote:
> Jerry,
> 
>> I've been using them for several years and have received maybe 3-4 emails
>> from them, all directly relating to their service.  They do not spam you
>> with all kinds of junk.
> 
> :-)  Short-lived email adresses will ofcourse also cut any spammer short.
> 
> But thats not it:  If someone locks a door and requires you to have a key,
> but you know that you can just grab /any/ key and it will open it, why do
> they require a key to begin with ?
>

They want to be able to contact you in the event there is a problem with 
your posts or the service.  And no, you CAN'T just get "any email 
account".  Most free domains like gmail, hotmail and others are 
prohibited.

>> You can use text attachments, although not all servers may accept them.
> 
> I take it that also means that they might disappear when the message gets
> propagated to other nntp servers. :-\
> 

Yes.

>>    Binary attachments would automatically be base64 encoded/decoded by your
>> news reader software.
> 
> :-p  I was joking there.
> 
>> But if you do it yourself, it would go over as text and would have to be
>> manually decoded on the receiving end
> 
> I'm not so sure if a client would not notice the blob already being base64
> encoded, and as a result just insert the blob without encoding it again ....
> 

It all goes back to the mime type of the attachment.

> And I actually fully expect the server to catch such envelope-in-envelope
> construction, and scan the inner content regardless.
> 
> ... though the extra action required by the user of having to decode the
> inner envelope (with external software) will ofcourse protect the "if its
> clickable than click it" crowd.
> 
>> But if I need to send a text attachment I'll generally post it to
>> pastebin.com and reference it in my message.
> 
> Alas, that road became unpassable for me when those fileservers started to
> require the usage of JS.   You mentioned "never accept a binary file via
> usenet" ?   I do not accept JS for pretty-much the same reason: random
> programs that I cannot even vet before they are executed.
> 
> Regards,
> Rudy Wieser
> 
> 

I find almost every site nowadays requires javascript for something or 
other.  I don't find it to be that much of a problem.  Some sketchy 
sites will use it to try to prevent you from leaving the site or opening 
dozens of windows, but I just stay away from those sites.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#18059

Jerry,

> They want to be able to contact you in the event there is a problem with 
> your posts or the service.

:-) I've been using email & newsgroups by the same ISP for about two 
decades, and have /never/ gotten a single email from them about either.   I 
don't think that ES will do better/worse in that regard.

> And no, you CAN'T just get "any email account".  Most free domains like 
> gmail, hotmail and others are prohibited.

You are correct, and at the same time obnoxiously pedantic.  You do realize 
that, do you ? :-(

Somehow I don't think that removing those domains you mentioned "and others" 
will make a dent in the number of available adresses.

>> I take it that also means that they might disappear when the message gets 
>> propagated to other nntp servers. :-\
>
> Yes.

Which is a good reason not to even try.

> It all goes back to the mime type of the attachment.

I don't think so.   That can indicate something quite different than what 
the contents actually are (remember the debacle of an executable mime-typed 
as a bit of music ?  Instant pownage) .

Besides, the contents (provided to the client as an attachment) could easily 
be encoded in something the email client doesn't recognise, and must give a 
"unknown blob" indication for.   In short, it would be rather unusable for 
determining, by the server, what the next (second, third, etc) decoding 
should be.

> I find almost every site nowadays requires javascript for something or 
> other.

Not really.   /Most/ work well enough without it.  Only a select few 
absolutily refuse to work without it.

And those ?   "I just stay away from those sites". :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18060

On 8/28/2019 3:33 PM, R.Wieser wrote:
> Jerry,
> 
>> They want to be able to contact you in the event there is a problem with
>> your posts or the service.
> 
> :-) I've been using email & newsgroups by the same ISP for about two
> decades, and have /never/ gotten a single email from them about either.   I
> don't think that ES will do better/worse in that regard.
> 
>> And no, you CAN'T just get "any email account".  Most free domains like
>> gmail, hotmail and others are prohibited.
> 
> You are correct, and at the same time obnoxiously pedantic.  You do realize
> that, do you ? :-(
> 
> Somehow I don't think that removing those domains you mentioned "and others"
> will make a dent in the number of available adresses.
>

It means you need an email issued by your ISP, your company, your own 
domain or similar.  The free email accounts won't work.

And why am I "obnoxiously pedantic" for saying so?

>>> I take it that also means that they might disappear when the message gets
>>> propagated to other nntp servers. :-\
>>
>> Yes.
> 
> Which is a good reason not to even try.
> 
>> It all goes back to the mime type of the attachment.
> 
> I don't think so.   That can indicate something quite different than what
> the contents actually are (remember the debacle of an executable mime-typed
> as a bit of music ?  Instant pownage) .
> 

Yes, it does.  While you can falsify the mime type, whether a news 
server accepts the attachment or not is based on the mime type.  For 
instance, if you attach an image it will be base64 encoded and labeled 
the appropriate image type.  But if you base64 encode it before 
attaching it would be attached as a text file.  If you try to attach it 
as an image it will be base64 encoded a second time.

> Besides, the contents (provided to the client as an attachment) could easily
> be encoded in something the email client doesn't recognise, and must give a
> "unknown blob" indication for.   In short, it would be rather unusable for
> determining, by the server, what the next (second, third, etc) decoding
> should be.
> 

It wouldn't be an email client - it would be a news reader (which may 
also double as an email client but does not have to be).  And if you did 
try to mark it as an unknown mime type the attachment will be rejected 
by most news servers.

>> I find almost every site nowadays requires javascript for something or
>> other.
> 
> Not really.   /Most/ work well enough without it.  Only a select few
> absolutily refuse to work without it.
> 
> And those ?   "I just stay away from those sites". :-)
> 

I've found many of the companies I deal with in my business require 
javascript.  No real way to stay away fro them.

And more and more sites are requiring it nowadays.  If you don't have it 
enabled you're losing a lot of functionality.  But that's up to you.


> Regards,
> Rudy Wieser
> 
> 



-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#18061

Jerry,

> It means you need an email issued by your ISP, your company, your own 
> domain or similar.

Bullshit.  And you know that as well as I do.

:-) Pray tell: How can/does ES check if a certain email address is from any 
of those ?

> The free email accounts won't work.

The *known* (by ES) free email accounts you mean.

And even if you remove /all/ of those from the available range than there is 
a rather good chance that there are still a few left, don't you think ?

> It means you need an email issued by your ISP, your company, your own 
> domain or similar.  The free email accounts won't work.
>
> And why am I "obnoxiously pedantic" for saying so?

In the above you have taken something from your current reply, and try to 
make it sound as if my "obnoxious" remark was about it.    Bad show kiddo, 
bad show.

Also, I already explained why I think your statement it was actually aimed 
at was just pedantry.   But obviously you have missed that too ...

Thats too many "mistakes" in just a few lines to my liking.  So, Goodbye.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18062

On 8/29/2019 3:20 PM, R.Wieser wrote:
> Jerry,
> 
>> It means you need an email issued by your ISP, your company, your own
>> domain or similar.
> 
> Bullshit.  And you know that as well as I do.
> 
> :-) Pray tell: How can/does ES check if a certain email address is from any
> of those ?
> 

Pretty simple, actually.  If the domain is gmail.com, hotmail.com or any 
of a number of others, it's not allowed.

There are people who have put together lists of all of the known free 
email services around the world.  The owner of eternal-september is very 
open about using these lists.

The lists may not be 100% complete - but any not on the list is going to 
be very obscure.

>> The free email accounts won't work.
> 
> The *known* (by ES) free email accounts you mean.
> 
> And even if you remove /all/ of those from the available range than there is
> a rather good chance that there are still a few left, don't you think ?
> 

See above.

>> It means you need an email issued by your ISP, your company, your own
>> domain or similar.  The free email accounts won't work.
>>
>> And why am I "obnoxiously pedantic" for saying so?
> 
> In the above you have taken something from your current reply, and try to
> make it sound as if my "obnoxious" remark was about it.    Bad show kiddo,
> bad show.
> 
> Also, I already explained why I think your statement it was actually aimed
> at was just pedantry.   But obviously you have missed that too ...
> 
> Thats too many "mistakes" in just a few lines to my liking.  So, Goodbye.
> 
> Regards,
> Rudy Wieser
> 
> 

So you don't like being told you're wrong (about free email accounts) so 
you call my posts "obnoxiously pedantic".

Here's a clue - I'm not the one being obnoxiously pedantic in this 
conversation.  But you'll never admit you are.

But that's OK.  As Socrates said "When the debate is lost, slander 
becomes the tool of the losers."

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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