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  Sandbox sanjayrathod273@gmail.com - 2013-07-05 04:38 -0700
    Re: Sandbox Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-07-05 08:25 -0400
      Re: Sandbox "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-07-05 18:24 +0200
        Re: Sandbox Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-07-05 12:53 -0400
          Re: Sandbox "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-07-05 19:33 +0200
            Re: Sandbox Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 18:23 +0000
            Re: Sandbox Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-07-05 15:07 -0400
              Re: Sandbox "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-07-05 21:20 +0200

#10029 — Sandbox

HEy guys Help me

I want to use sandbox for my site's security. below is the link of method which i want to use http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php.

but when i am run the code of that page it says sandbox class not defined.
so anyone can guide me through this step by step.
Please help me my site has down due to hacking. i want to use for this site
http://web.guru99.com/demo-editor-php/

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#10030

On 7/5/2013 7:38 AM, sanjayrathod273@gmail.com wrote:
> HEy guys Help me
>
> I want to use sandbox for my site's security. below is the link of method which i want to use http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php.
>
> but when i am run the code of that page it says sandbox class not defined.
> so anyone can guide me through this step by step.
> Please help me my site has down due to hacking. i want to use for this site
> http://web.guru99.com/demo-editor-php/
>

Look at the documentation - you need the runkit PECL class.  But that 
has not been updated for seven years and will not compile with PHP 
versions > 5.2.  It looks like you're out of luck.

But then while I think what you're trying to do is admirable, I don't 
think you'll be able to stop hacking without pretty much crippling your 
users.  Anyone developing (or learning) PHP should have their own 
development environment, anyway.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#10031

On 05/07/13 14:25, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 7/5/2013 7:38 AM, sanjayrathod273@gmail.com wrote:
>> HEy guys Help me
>>
>> I want to use sandbox for my site's security. below is the link of
>> method which i want to use http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php.
>>
>> but when i am run the code of that page it says sandbox class not
>> defined.
>> so anyone can guide me through this step by step.
>> Please help me my site has down due to hacking. i want to use for this
>> site
>> http://web.guru99.com/demo-editor-php/
>>
>
> Look at the documentation - you need the runkit PECL class.  But that
> has not been updated for seven years and will not compile with PHP
> versions > 5.2.  It looks like you're out of luck.
>
> But then while I think what you're trying to do is admirable, I don't
> think you'll be able to stop hacking without pretty much crippling your
> users.  Anyone developing (or learning) PHP should have their own
> development environment, anyway.
>

There are other options to "sandbox" the users, suExec will give you 
some capabilities and then on you can also run the apache in a chroot 
environment. This way you can limit the access through the webserver to 
the rest of the server environment and limit the sites from accessing 
each others data. I usually apply the suhosin to the php and set a bit 
limitation that way too. Doing all that you need of course a Linux/Unix 
server.

-- 

  //Aho

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#10032

On 7/5/2013 12:24 PM, J.O. Aho wrote:
> On 05/07/13 14:25, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 7/5/2013 7:38 AM, sanjayrathod273@gmail.com wrote:
>>> HEy guys Help me
>>>
>>> I want to use sandbox for my site's security. below is the link of
>>> method which i want to use http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php.
>>>
>>> but when i am run the code of that page it says sandbox class not
>>> defined.
>>> so anyone can guide me through this step by step.
>>> Please help me my site has down due to hacking. i want to use for this
>>> site
>>> http://web.guru99.com/demo-editor-php/
>>>
>>
>> Look at the documentation - you need the runkit PECL class.  But that
>> has not been updated for seven years and will not compile with PHP
>> versions > 5.2.  It looks like you're out of luck.
>>
>> But then while I think what you're trying to do is admirable, I don't
>> think you'll be able to stop hacking without pretty much crippling your
>> users.  Anyone developing (or learning) PHP should have their own
>> development environment, anyway.
>>
>
> There are other options to "sandbox" the users, suExec will give you
> some capabilities and then on you can also run the apache in a chroot
> environment. This way you can limit the access through the webserver to
> the rest of the server environment and limit the sites from accessing
> each others data. I usually apply the suhosin to the php and set a bit
> limitation that way too. Doing all that you need of course a Linux/Unix
> server.
>

Yes, but look at his site.  He's trying to create an online PHP executor 
for people to use.  Your suggestions won't help there - it's impossible 
to use them to limit access to the files from user-developed code 
(evidently executed with eval()) while still making it available to the 
installed code.

And limiting things like file functions in his php.ini file will not 
only limit the functions for user-developed code, but for the code on 
the site itself.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#10033

On 05/07/13 18:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 7/5/2013 12:24 PM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>> On 05/07/13 14:25, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 7/5/2013 7:38 AM, sanjayrathod273@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> HEy guys Help me
>>>>
>>>> I want to use sandbox for my site's security. below is the link of
>>>> method which i want to use http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php.
>>>>
>>>> but when i am run the code of that page it says sandbox class not
>>>> defined.
>>>> so anyone can guide me through this step by step.
>>>> Please help me my site has down due to hacking. i want to use for this
>>>> site
>>>> http://web.guru99.com/demo-editor-php/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Look at the documentation - you need the runkit PECL class.  But that
>>> has not been updated for seven years and will not compile with PHP
>>> versions > 5.2.  It looks like you're out of luck.
>>>
>>> But then while I think what you're trying to do is admirable, I don't
>>> think you'll be able to stop hacking without pretty much crippling your
>>> users.  Anyone developing (or learning) PHP should have their own
>>> development environment, anyway.
>>>
>>
>> There are other options to "sandbox" the users, suExec will give you
>> some capabilities and then on you can also run the apache in a chroot
>> environment. This way you can limit the access through the webserver to
>> the rest of the server environment and limit the sites from accessing
>> each others data. I usually apply the suhosin to the php and set a bit
>> limitation that way too. Doing all that you need of course a Linux/Unix
>> server.
>>
>
> Yes, but look at his site.  He's trying to create an online PHP executor
> for people to use.  Your suggestions won't help there - it's impossible
> to use them to limit access to the files from user-developed code
> (evidently executed with eval()) while still making it available to the
> installed code.

*nods*

> And limiting things like file functions in his php.ini file will not
> only limit the functions for user-developed code, but for the code on
> the site itself.

yeah, you are right, but just let us play things a little bit before 
giving up.

1. If we start with running the apache in a chroot, we eliminate the 
access to system files.

2. Then we run the suExec for the site and php with suhosin, to make 
things a little bit safer in the environment which will be "executing 
the code".

3. Instead of using eval to run the user imputed code, we use fpm to 
execute it and set the fpm to use another php.ini than the suExec 
environment Running the fpm in it's own nested chroot, will prevent it 
from accessing those files in the general apache chroot.

Of course this would require a custom made PHP page to handle a such 
setup, but could in theory work, but should be well tested before 
releasing to the wide world web.

Any thoughts about this, or do you see a flaw in my thought?

-- 

  //Aho

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#10034

On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:33:30 +0200, J.O. Aho wrote:

> Any thoughts about this, or do you see a flaw in my thought?

I don't know enough to comment generally on your suggestions - but I go 
with Jerry's premise that anyone developing php should have their own dev 
platform, it's not that hard to set up wamp / lamp out of the box on your 
system, or in a vm, or for that matter on a free aws host (although the 
memory limit on the latter might be an issue?).

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon@gmail.com

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#10035

On 7/5/2013 1:33 PM, J.O. Aho wrote:
> On 05/07/13 18:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 7/5/2013 12:24 PM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>>> On 05/07/13 14:25, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 7/5/2013 7:38 AM, sanjayrathod273@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> HEy guys Help me
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to use sandbox for my site's security. below is the link of
>>>>> method which i want to use
>>>>> http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php.
>>>>>
>>>>> but when i am run the code of that page it says sandbox class not
>>>>> defined.
>>>>> so anyone can guide me through this step by step.
>>>>> Please help me my site has down due to hacking. i want to use for this
>>>>> site
>>>>> http://web.guru99.com/demo-editor-php/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Look at the documentation - you need the runkit PECL class.  But that
>>>> has not been updated for seven years and will not compile with PHP
>>>> versions > 5.2.  It looks like you're out of luck.
>>>>
>>>> But then while I think what you're trying to do is admirable, I don't
>>>> think you'll be able to stop hacking without pretty much crippling your
>>>> users.  Anyone developing (or learning) PHP should have their own
>>>> development environment, anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are other options to "sandbox" the users, suExec will give you
>>> some capabilities and then on you can also run the apache in a chroot
>>> environment. This way you can limit the access through the webserver to
>>> the rest of the server environment and limit the sites from accessing
>>> each others data. I usually apply the suhosin to the php and set a bit
>>> limitation that way too. Doing all that you need of course a Linux/Unix
>>> server.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but look at his site.  He's trying to create an online PHP executor
>> for people to use.  Your suggestions won't help there - it's impossible
>> to use them to limit access to the files from user-developed code
>> (evidently executed with eval()) while still making it available to the
>> installed code.
>
> *nods*
>
>> And limiting things like file functions in his php.ini file will not
>> only limit the functions for user-developed code, but for the code on
>> the site itself.
>
> yeah, you are right, but just let us play things a little bit before
> giving up.
>
> 1. If we start with running the apache in a chroot, we eliminate the
> access to system files.
>

True, but giving the Apache user very limited rights by itself would 
prevent access to system files (but not other website files, of course).

> 2. Then we run the suExec for the site and php with suhosin, to make
> things a little bit safer in the environment which will be "executing
> the code".
>

This would definitely make things a lot safer.  But you'd still have to 
have at least the PHP script being executed available.  There doesn't 
need to be a lot in that page, however, and careful programming (i.e. no 
passwords, no other file accesses, etc.) would make it safe even if the 
code was exposed.

> 3. Instead of using eval to run the user imputed code, we use fpm to
> execute it and set the fpm to use another php.ini than the suExec
> environment Running the fpm in it's own nested chroot, will prevent it
> from accessing those files in the general apache chroot.
>

Hadn't though about this.  It could easily work - i.e. create a page on 
the fly from the user's code then execute that page.  Permissions might 
be a problem, but could be worked out, I guess.

> Of course this would require a custom made PHP page to handle a such
> setup, but could in theory work, but should be well tested before
> releasing to the wide world web.
>
> Any thoughts about this, or do you see a flaw in my thought?
>

No obvious flaws, anyway.  I guess the biggest part would be he'd need 
his own server or VPS as these would require changes to the PHP 
executable which a shared host wouldn't be interested in making.

Offhand, I'd say it could work, but I'd have to think about it a lot 
more, and play with it.  But it's not interesting enough to me to spend 
a lot of time on it.

A great idea, though.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#10036

On 05/07/13 21:07, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 7/5/2013 1:33 PM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>> On 05/07/13 18:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 7/5/2013 12:24 PM, J.O. Aho wrote:
>>>> On 05/07/13 14:25, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>> On 7/5/2013 7:38 AM, sanjayrathod273@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> HEy guys Help me
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to use sandbox for my site's security. below is the link of
>>>>>> method which i want to use
>>>>>> http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but when i am run the code of that page it says sandbox class not
>>>>>> defined.
>>>>>> so anyone can guide me through this step by step.
>>>>>> Please help me my site has down due to hacking. i want to use for
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> site
>>>>>> http://web.guru99.com/demo-editor-php/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Look at the documentation - you need the runkit PECL class.  But that
>>>>> has not been updated for seven years and will not compile with PHP
>>>>> versions > 5.2.  It looks like you're out of luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> But then while I think what you're trying to do is admirable, I don't
>>>>> think you'll be able to stop hacking without pretty much crippling
>>>>> your
>>>>> users.  Anyone developing (or learning) PHP should have their own
>>>>> development environment, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are other options to "sandbox" the users, suExec will give you
>>>> some capabilities and then on you can also run the apache in a chroot
>>>> environment. This way you can limit the access through the webserver to
>>>> the rest of the server environment and limit the sites from accessing
>>>> each others data. I usually apply the suhosin to the php and set a bit
>>>> limitation that way too. Doing all that you need of course a Linux/Unix
>>>> server.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but look at his site.  He's trying to create an online PHP executor
>>> for people to use.  Your suggestions won't help there - it's impossible
>>> to use them to limit access to the files from user-developed code
>>> (evidently executed with eval()) while still making it available to the
>>> installed code.
>>
>> *nods*
>>
>>> And limiting things like file functions in his php.ini file will not
>>> only limit the functions for user-developed code, but for the code on
>>> the site itself.
>>
>> yeah, you are right, but just let us play things a little bit before
>> giving up.
>>
>> 1. If we start with running the apache in a chroot, we eliminate the
>> access to system files.
>>
>
> True, but giving the Apache user very limited rights by itself would
> prevent access to system files (but not other website files, of course).
>
>> 2. Then we run the suExec for the site and php with suhosin, to make
>> things a little bit safer in the environment which will be "executing
>> the code".
>>
>
> This would definitely make things a lot safer.  But you'd still have to
> have at least the PHP script being executed available.  There doesn't
> need to be a lot in that page, however, and careful programming (i.e. no
> passwords, no other file accesses, etc.) would make it safe even if the
> code was exposed.
>
>> 3. Instead of using eval to run the user imputed code, we use fpm to
>> execute it and set the fpm to use another php.ini than the suExec
>> environment Running the fpm in it's own nested chroot, will prevent it
>> from accessing those files in the general apache chroot.
>>
>
> Hadn't though about this.  It could easily work - i.e. create a page on
> the fly from the user's code then execute that page.  Permissions might
> be a problem, but could be worked out, I guess.
>
>> Of course this would require a custom made PHP page to handle a such
>> setup, but could in theory work, but should be well tested before
>> releasing to the wide world web.
>>
>> Any thoughts about this, or do you see a flaw in my thought?
>>
>
> No obvious flaws, anyway.  I guess the biggest part would be he'd need
> his own server or VPS as these would require changes to the PHP
> executable which a shared host wouldn't be interested in making.

Of course, and if there would be a shared host who would be prepared to 
do so much for a customer, I think I would switch to another safe one, 
for I think a shared host who does as all their customers want would 
have a lot of security issues.


> Offhand, I'd say it could work, but I'd have to think about it a lot
> more, and play with it.  But it's not interesting enough to me to spend
> a lot of time on it.

Same for me, just a theoretical though of a possibility to do it.

> A great idea, though.

Thanks :)


On 05/07/13 20:23, Denis McMahon wrote:
 > On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:33:30 +0200, J.O. Aho wrote:
 >> Any thoughts about this, or do you see a flaw in my thought?
 >
 > I don't know enough to comment generally on your suggestions - but I
 > go with Jerry's premise that anyone developing php should have their
 > own dev platform, it's not that hard to set up wamp / lamp out of the
 > box on your system, or in a vm, or for that matter on a free aws host
 > (although the memory limit on the latter might be an issue?).

If you are going with Suhosin, then wamp is out of the question, it only 
works on Linux/Unix, don't think it even works on aamp. The other parts 
may. Memory print shouldn't be much more than for a standard setup, but 
sure the fpm would take up some of the memory and make less things left 
for the users script.


-- 

  //Aho

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