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Anyone have experience with any php debuggers?

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  Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? BobMCT <r.mariotti@fdcx.net> - 2013-01-02 21:50 -0500
    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-01-02 23:15 -0500
    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-01-03 10:25 +0100
      Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? bill <william@TechServSys.com> - 2013-01-03 06:52 -0500
        Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-01-03 14:18 +0100
          Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? bill <william@TechServSys.com> - 2013-01-04 07:06 -0500
            Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-01-04 08:52 -0500
              Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? "Peter H. Coffin" <hellsop@ninehells.com> - 2013-01-04 10:50 -0600
                Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-04 18:13 +0000
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-01-04 14:40 -0500
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Martin Leese <please@see.Web.for.e-mail.INVALID> - 2013-01-05 11:13 -0700
                      Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-05 18:31 +0000
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? "Twayne" <nobody@devnull.spamcop.net> - 2013-01-04 15:19 -0500
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-04 20:21 +0000
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? "Peter H. Coffin" <hellsop@ninehells.com> - 2013-01-04 21:39 -0600
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-05 04:32 +0000
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-01-05 09:45 +0100
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2013-01-05 10:47 +0100
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-05 12:59 +0000
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-01-15 11:36 +0100
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-15 13:28 +0000
                      Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-01-15 15:48 +0100
                        Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-15 15:05 +0000
                        Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-01-15 18:55 +0000
                Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-01-04 19:25 +0100
              Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-01-05 04:01 -0700
                Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-01-05 08:35 -0500
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-01-05 12:07 -0700
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-01-05 14:51 -0500
                Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> - 2013-01-05 15:47 +0000
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-01-05 15:59 +0000
                    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2013-01-05 18:51 +0100
                      Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-05 18:30 +0000
                        Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-01-05 18:44 +0000
                      Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-01-05 18:42 +0000
                        Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2013-01-05 19:47 +0100
                          Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-01-05 14:52 -0500
                          Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-06 12:11 +0000
                            Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2013-01-06 13:41 +0100
                              Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-01-06 08:23 -0500
                              Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-06 13:53 +0000
                  Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-05 18:25 +0000
            Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2013-01-04 15:22 +0100
              Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-01-04 15:40 +0100
              Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-01-05 04:06 -0700
                Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2013-01-06 01:56 +0100
              Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-01-05 13:55 +0000
                Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-01-05 17:51 +0100
    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2013-01-04 22:30 +0000
    Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? Scott Johnson <noonehome@chalupasworld.com> - 2013-01-05 09:51 -0800

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#7993 — Anyone have experience with any php debuggers?

I've introduced an elusive bug into a rather large PHP program.  I've
been debugging it my usual ways for several weeks now without success.

I would like to "watch" certain vairables to see when they are altered
and where as well as to what.  I've installed xdebug on my server and
netbeans IDE on my Windoze desktop.  I can't figure out how to "watch"
a variable.  Otherwise I've got the IDE working.

I've also tried installing phpbuglost as a debugger.  Looks promising
but I can't get it to work.  I also found debugConsole but that seems
to be defunt.

So, I'm asking for suggestions and, regarding the phpbuglost, how did
anyone get it working?

I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
good/useful php debuggers.

Thanks all. 

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#7994

On 1/2/2013 9:50 PM, BobMCT wrote:
> I've introduced an elusive bug into a rather large PHP program.  I've
> been debugging it my usual ways for several weeks now without success.
>
> I would like to "watch" certain vairables to see when they are altered
> and where as well as to what.  I've installed xdebug on my server and
> netbeans IDE on my Windoze desktop.  I can't figure out how to "watch"
> a variable.  Otherwise I've got the IDE working.
>
> I've also tried installing phpbuglost as a debugger.  Looks promising
> but I can't get it to work.  I also found debugConsole but that seems
> to be defunt.
>
> So, I'm asking for suggestions and, regarding the phpbuglost, how did
> anyone get it working?
>
> I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
> good/useful php debuggers.
>
> Thanks all.
>

Bob,

I use xdebug with eclipse IDE.  It works well.  Haven't tried netbeans.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#7995

Am 03.01.2013 03:50, schrieb BobMCT:
> I've introduced an elusive bug into a rather large PHP program.  I've
> been debugging it my usual ways for several weeks now without success.
> 
> I would like to "watch" certain vairables to see when they are altered
> and where as well as to what.  I've installed xdebug on my server and
> netbeans IDE on my Windoze desktop.  I can't figure out how to "watch"
> a variable.  Otherwise I've got the IDE working.
> 
> I've also tried installing phpbuglost as a debugger.  Looks promising
> but I can't get it to work.  I also found debugConsole but that seems
> to be defunt.
> 
> So, I'm asking for suggestions and, regarding the phpbuglost, how did
> anyone get it working?
> 
> I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
> good/useful php debuggers.

A programmer must be able to configure his debugger.

Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.

The xdebug ini looks like this:

zend_extension=/whatever/your/path/to/usr/lib/php5/20100525/xdebug.so
xdebug.remote_enable = On
xdebug.remote_host   = 192.168.0.111
xdebug.idekey        = ohmy

Start your IDE, configure "listen for debugger connections on port 9000".

Go to your browser, enter your URL like this:
http://mysite.example.com/index.html?XDEBUG_SESSION_START=ohmy

Now your IDE pops up a message, and on it goes in debug mode. You get at least:

buttons for single step, step over procedure, return from procedure, and run (to the
end), display areas where you see all variables of the current step scope, and a
display area for globals and superglobals.

EVERY PHP PROGRAMMER SHOULD HAVE THIS.

/Str.

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#7997

>
> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.

Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?

bill

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#7998

Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
> 
>>
>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
> 
> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
> 

I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org, but it was in
alpha state.

You can dump execution traces.

But why worry? A developer has an IDE.

/Str.

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#8000

On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>
>>>
>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>
>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>
>
> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org, but it was in
> alpha state.
>
> You can dump execution traces.
>
> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>
> /Str.
>

I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
bill

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#8001

On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>
>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>
>>
>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>> but it was in
>> alpha state.
>>
>> You can dump execution traces.
>>
>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>
>> /Str.
>>
>
> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
> bill

Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#8004

On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>> but it was in
>>> alpha state.
>>>
>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>
>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>
>>> /Str.
>>>
>>
>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>> bill
>
> Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.

A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;

-- 
8. After I kidnap the beautiful princess, we will be married 
   immediately in a quiet civil ceremony, not a lavish spectacle in 
   three weeks' time during which the final phase of my plan will be 
   carried out.  --Peter Anspach's Evil Overlord list

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#8005

On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>>> but it was in
>>>> alpha state.
>>>>
>>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>>
>>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>>
>>>> /Str.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>> bill
>>
>> Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.
>
> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>
Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer 
thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.

And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.

Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with 
hand tools.

I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the 
EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have 
enough ICES to go round.

BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that 
the chances of a bug were very very low.

Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next 
day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that 
make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.

The youth of today...

-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8007

On 1/4/2013 1:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>>>> but it was in
>>>>> alpha state.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>>>
>>>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Str.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>>> bill
>>>
>>> Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>
> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>
> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>
> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
> hand tools.
>
> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
> enough ICES to go round.
>
> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>
> The youth of today...
>

I started writing code using paper tapes and punch cards.  Every job was 
a batch run - submit the program and get the printout back (in college 
that meant typically a 24 hour turnaround).  Debug your code, make the 
corrections (easier with punch cards than tape!) and resubmit the job.

That doesn't mean I'm still doing it.  Good programmers learn better 
ways of doing things.  Others just complain about "the youth of today".

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#8025

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> I started writing code using paper tapes and punch cards.

Luxury.

-- 
Regards,
Martin Leese
E-mail: please@see.Web.for.e-mail.INVALID
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/

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#8028

On 05/01/13 18:13, Martin Leese wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> I started writing code using paper tapes and punch cards.
>
> Luxury.
>
So did I and it was so appalling I didn't write code for another ten years.


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8008

...

> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in
> such a way that the chances of a bug were very very low.

No, what you actually dd was learn PHP well enough over time to avoid many 
of its pitfalls. It's also likely PHP was kinder and easier to work with in 
those days and you simply grew with it.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then
> spend the next day bodging it until it works, simply
> because they have the tools that make debugging easier
> than writing proper code in the first place.

An IDE does not mean you don't have to know PHP. An IDE is a tool and only a 
tool and what it can actually do is help make coding more efficient and 
faster for time to production. I've found an IDE is also a good way to learn 
about degugging, too. I tried a few IDE's but eventually tossed the out ni 
favor of NotePad ++ and NoteTab 6. One is sxcellent for highlighting and 
lets you write your own clips to use and the other allows a single-click to 
send my work to my local on-machine server. They both monitor the file 
worked on and if one gets out of step from the other, it knows it and allows 
you to reload the most current state of the file/s (or not, depending). And 
a lot more. These indeed help a lot with writing PHP or most any other 
language; it includes clips for several languages you might use.
>
> The youth of today...

My mind might still be "young" but my body's about out of fuel and nearing 
70.

HTH,

Twayne`

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#8009

On 04/01/13 20:19, Twayne wrote:
> ...
>
>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in
>> such a way that the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> No, what you actually dd was learn PHP well enough over time to avoid many
> of its pitfalls. It's also likely PHP was kinder and easier to work with in
> those days and you simply grew with it.

Er no that wasnt PHP. That was mainly micro assembler. where comments 
were the only thing that made it comprehensible.

]
>>
>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then
>> spend the next day bodging it until it works, simply
>> because they have the tools that make debugging easier
>> than writing proper code in the first place.
>
> An IDE does not mean you don't have to know PHP. An IDE is a tool and only a
> tool and what it can actually do is help make coding more efficient and
> faster for time to production. I've found an IDE is also a good way to learn
> about degugging, too. I tried a few IDE's but eventually tossed the out ni
> favor of NotePad ++ and NoteTab 6. One is sxcellent for highlighting and
> lets you write your own clips to use and the other allows a single-click to
> send my work to my local on-machine server. They both monitor the file
> worked on and if one gets out of step from the other, it knows it and allows
> you to reload the most current state of the file/s (or not, depending). And
> a lot more. These indeed help a lot with writing PHP or most any other
> language; it includes clips for several languages you might use.
>>
>> The youth of today...
>
> My mind might still be "young" but my body's about out of fuel and nearing
> 70.
>
> HTH,
>
> Twayne`
>
>


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8011

On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:13:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>
> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer 
> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>
> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>
> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with 
> hand tools.

Good grief. I get enough hassle about people not being able to tell if
I'm joking without marking up humor with emoticons and you're not
willing to take something as humorous even with? That can't be good for
your health, man...

-- 
Cunningham's Third Law:
The reliability of a complex system is inversely proportional to the
contactability of the person who knows most about it.

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#8012

On 05/01/13 03:39, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:13:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.
>>>
>>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>>
>> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
>> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>>
>> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>>
>> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
>> hand tools.
>
> Good grief. I get enough hassle about people not being able to tell if
> I'm joking without marking up humor with emoticons and you're not
> willing to take something as humorous even with? That can't be good for
> your health, man...
>
My response was really to Stucklehead, but he's in my killfile.


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#8013

Peter H. Coffin wrote:

> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:13:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.
>>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
>> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>>
>> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>>
>> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
>> hand tools.
> 
> Good grief. I get enough hassle about people not being able to tell if
> I'm joking without marking up humor with emoticons and you're not
> willing to take something as humorous even with? That can't be good for
> your health, man...

Perhaps some need smileys looking the other way ;-)


PointedEars
-- 
> If you get a bunch of authors […] that state the same "best practices"
> in any programming language, then you can bet who is wrong or right...
Not with javascript. Nonsense propagates like wildfire in this field.
  -- Richard Cornford, comp.lang.javascript, 2011-11-14

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#8014

Am 2013-01-04 19:13, The Natural Philosopher meinte:

> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs.

Naturally.

> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.

So you'd suggest that professional developers stick to vi (and vi 
alone)? Professional developers don't need debuggers, unit tests, 
automated versioning, automated documentation generation, deployment tools?

> The youth of today...

IIRC I wrote my first program 29 years ago (in BASIC on a ZX Spectrum) 
and I prefer a decent IDE for most jobs - do I qualify as youngling?

Gregor

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#8017

On 05/01/13 09:47, Gregor Kofler wrote:
> Am 2013-01-04 19:13, The Natural Philosopher meinte:
>
>> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs.
>
> Naturally.
>
>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
>> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>>
>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
>> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
>> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>
> So you'd suggest that professional developers stick to vi (and vi
> alone)? Professional developers don't need debuggers, unit tests,
> automated versioning, automated documentation generation, deployment tools?
>

Not at all.

I just maintain that you don't judge a workman by his tools.

But by results.

And buying fancy tools doesn't turn a bad coder into a professional.


>> The youth of today...
>
> IIRC I wrote my first program 29 years ago (in BASIC on a ZX Spectrum)
> and I prefer a decent IDE for most jobs - do I qualify as youngling?
>

dunno.

I dont write large code projects these days. And if I do I tend to use C 
anyway. Php is a small shim, to work the user interface mostly. The 
grunt work is in C. Modular code and the same style I have always used: 
keep subroutines short, well documented, put debug code in when it 
doesn't work, take it out again afterwards..think before you code..think 
twice and write it down before you construct any SQL table...

The majority of errors are syntax. Compilers pick those up quickly. I 
hate it in PHP that if I mistype a variable it accepts it anyway. In C 
it tells me its undeclared.

If I write code thats so complex I cant spot the subtle bug, I rewrite 
it in simpler form,. Its bad code practice to write stuff even YOU dont 
understand.

That's the difference between professional coders and Stuckle. Pro 
coders use what tools they have and do the best they can. All stuckle 
can think about is that he's got a better tool than you, so he must be a 
better coder.


> Gregor


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8081

Am 04.01.2013 19:13, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
[...]
>>>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Str.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>>> bill
>>>
>>> Sorry, I agree.  A DEVELOPER has an IDE.  A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>
> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>
> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>
> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
> hand tools.
>
> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
> enough ICES to go round.
[...]

The had the first IDEs including source level debuggers in the late 
1980s long before Windows or Linux became popular as they are today (and 
when i started software development, Windows 3.1 didn't even exist) - 
and yes, i really liked the opportunity to have "projects" and 
debugging. Just because it is technically possible to do something 
without a special tool it does not mean that using better tools is not wise.

BTW: The GNU Debugger was created in 1986.

> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.

I doubt that you ever did projects with thousands line of code from 
scratch and more than one person working on the same project this way.


-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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