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Groups > comp.lang.javascript > #21709

Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions

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Michael Haufe (TNO) wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> So that is _not_ the reason why I sent you an e-mail, too.  The reason is
>> very simple: Misunderstandings can usually be resolved easier between two
>> people than in public.  Which is why the newsgroup is the *public* part
>> of Usenet, and e-mail is the *private* part.  (IOW, do not mung address
>> header fields; you are hurting helpful people *and* yourself, _not_ the
>> spammers.)
> 
> I'm not aware that I did. Another casualty of GG if this occured.

You did not; it was a general side note because there are people who do that 
and are not aware of the consequences.

>> Besides, even if your submission got noticed (I honestly cannot tell), it
>> is also _not_ an error if a submission was not implemented (yet).  Have
>> you considered also that other submissions might be more important than
>> yours? When one has a lot of different things to do, and particularly if
>> one does them alone, one has to prioritize.  Of the possible submissions
>> that you have mentioned here, I have no problem realizing that
>> submissions of greater importance might have taken precedence over them:
>> 
>> - AFAIK, "\v" is almost never used.  And “older JScript implementations”
>>   (you mean _versions_)?  Give me a break, please.  In order to be
>>   useful, the ES Matrix must focus on *used* ECMAScript implementations,
>>   not on>>   detailing ancient history.  AISB, it might not even be
>>   possible to write backwards-compatible testing code.  The line has to
>>   be drawn somewhere, and I am drawing it where the costs (in free time)
>>   exceed the possible benefits (in completeness).
> 
> No, I meant implementations. If I had said _versions_ you would have
> probably made the contrary statement that I should have said
> _implementations_ as that seems to be your habit IME.

There are no JScript implementations; JScript *is* an implementation of 
ECMAScript.  There are _versions_ of JScript.

> Besides, I would argue that the matrix wouldn't have much value if it
> primarily focused on the obvious aspects of support; No one would need
> bother to look it up...

The primary value of the Matrix is to detail the features that versions of 
implementations or implementations in general have in common; that are, in 
Matrix lingo, “safe”; those are the features that can probably be used 
without any extra code to accommodate for differences simply because there 
are none (known).  The secondary value is to detail the differences.
 
> IRT *used*: note that you have KJS listed, but imply an IE8 JScript
> discrepancy doesn't belong. For testing: '\v' == 'v'

That is unfortunate, but *where is the use-case*?  Do you see my problem 
with attaching that much importance to this quirk (enough importance to 
warrant this subthread?)
 
> Also, if detailing ancient history isn't your goal,

It is not my *primary* goal, and never has been, and I am quite certain that 
my target audience looks at it the same way.  I thought I had made that 
clear by now.

> then why bother with:
> <http://pointedears.de/scripts/test/es-matrix/#timeline>?

In my thesis – which, again, you can *read online*, albeit not in English 
yet – I have had to come to the conclusion that maybe not all features can 
be tested *automatically* and *reliably*.  (Formerly, test results were 
added *manually*.)  So in rewriting the Matrix while writing my thesis, my 
goals regarding the Matrix have had to shift.  It is a lot easier to add new 
features and test cases now than it is to rewrite test code in a backwards-
compatible way.
 
>>   And it is actually a *DOM*
>>   feature in disguise, making it suitable for the yet unpublished _DOM_
>>   Support Matrix, not the *ES* Matrix (if anyone even cares about it
>>   anymore).
> 
> I'm not so sure about that. It works in wsf as well:
> 
> <job>
> <object progid="ordersystem.clsorder" id="myorder" events="true"/>
> <script language="jscript">
> function myorder::onNew(){
> WScript.Echo("new order received from myorder")
> }
> myorder.neworder(1)
> </script>
> </job>

If it *still* works, then it is more important and easier to test than if it 
only had worked once.  Regardless, it is a syntactical *extension* to 
ECMAScript and therefore of lower priority.
 
>> - Same for “sharp variables” in JavaScript up to 1.8.5.  That was Firefox
>>   4 and earlier; versions that have met their end-of-life more than two
>>   years ago and literally SHOULD NOT be in use anywhere now.
> 
> yes?

I do not understand that question.

> […]
> From the ES-Matrix page:
> 
> "This overview – the ECMAScript Support Matrix – began as a comparison of
> different “JavaScript” features and, as time passed and understanding
> grew, evolved into a comparison between the major ECMAScript
> implementations, detailing the differences, the quirks and the bugs. It
> has been serving its author (and its dedicated readers) for years in
> writing client-side scripts that work cross-browser, and has been helping
> to see the distinction between core language features, and APIs with
> language binding, like the DOM. (The features of the latter API will be
> compared in another Matrix.)"
> 
> I must have misunderstood the "detailing the differences,
> the quirks and the bugs." part

Apparently so, because “cross-browser” implies commonalities.  I might have 
to reword that paragraph for clarification.  The thesis wording is clearer.

>> This is as far as I want to discuss the ES Matrix in this thread. 
>> Comparing the *private* and *from-scratch* pet project of the ES Matrix
>> (regardless how useful it may have become to others) with a FAQ that is
>> intended to be the *replacement* of an *existing* *public* FAQ is just
>> comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> So it seems. It is apparent to me now that the former is far more
> stringent in more ways than one.

You mean the latter (the FAQ) because it has a wider audience, do you not?
 
>> And here is what is relevant about all that to FAQ maintenance:
>> The same misconception would be that as a FAQ editor I would read every
>> posting in this newsgroup that contains "FAQ".  I just cannot do that,
>> none of the previous FAQ editors promised to do anything of the sort, and
>> AFAIK no publishing editor works that way either.  So it is not going to
>> happen regardless who does the job – unless they have nothing else to do,
>> and AISB then they are probably not the best person for the job.  (Notice
>> that I am using the term “editor” instead of “maintainer” with purpose. 
>> It is not enough to just keep the FAQ running; it has to be *edited*,
>> *improved*.)
> 
> Wasn't there a searchable convention in the past of suggesting entries?

There was, but a) I do not have the code (or must have missed it), b) people 
could forget to write the tags, and c) it does not solve the GG/Web problem.

>>  Making better submissions, and sending friendly reminders if
>> necessary, does.  After all, if one considers one’s submission *that*
>> important, sending a reminder is not too much to ask for.
> 
> I think it's obvious by now I don't think it's important, either implicity
> by how little I've bothered you about it or explicitly by my statements
> this week. I'm more curious to if you really are asking?

I do not understand that question.

>> Finally, *that* submissions get easily lost in newsgroup discussions is
>> *precisely* the reason why I have suggested and requested for the FAQ for
>> comp.lang.javascript that submissions be sent via e-mail (I am
>> considering something easy to remember and to filter into folders, like
>> faq@PointedEars.de – what do you think?).
> 
> I find that acceptable.

Thanks.
 
>> If you do not want to do just that, at least Cc: me (as an exception to
>> the rule in my sig).  It is simply too much to ask for to read each and
>> every posting; particularly, to read (and not filter out) all postings
>> injected via Google Groups, considering the low S/N ratio and violation
>> of Internet standards there (that few Google Groups posters realize).
> 
> Maybe we're all hiding from the NSA in the noise (and just don't know it).

I do not understand that answer.
 
>> > I still believe my description of submissions disappearing into the
>> > ether is valid from my point of view though since neither a positive or
>> > negative response is given after a significant period of time. If past
>> > submissions I've forgotten about by now are sitting in an inbox
>> > somewhere and you are aware of them, fine; I am content.
>> 
>> OK.  Just a friendly reminder on how it works: If *you* claim to have
>> made submissions that – for whatever reason – were not considered, *you*
>> have to substantiate that claim.  And *extraordinary* claims require
>> *extraordinary* evidence.
> 
> I didn't realize email/tweet/GG submissions were extraordinary events;

They are if they are used (by you) to show a potential problem with my 
approach to maintenance, and that problem apparently warrants this 
subthread.

> But at any rate, since neither of us care to dig up history

AISB, I will search my e-mails.  There is little more that I can do.
Google Groups search is not realiable anymore.

> and seem to rather prefer this time consuming ...discussion, I'll make at
> least a minor effort to curtail it.

OK.

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not Cc: me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> - 2013-10-06 12:37 -0700
  Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 12:55 +0000
    Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-10-07 14:02 +0100
  Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Dr J R Stockton <reply1300@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2013-10-07 19:56 +0100
    Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer dhtml <dhtmlkitchen@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 23:37 -0700
      Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2013-10-16 22:44 +0200
        Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2013-10-16 14:34 -0700
          Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-10-17 00:32 +0200
            Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2013-10-16 18:13 -0700
              [ES Matrix] Suggestions (was: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-10-17 04:20 +0200
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions (was: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer) "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2013-10-16 22:04 -0700
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions (was: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-10-17 10:08 +0200
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions (was: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer) "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2013-10-17 07:38 -0700
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-10-19 03:50 +0200
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2013-10-21 20:54 -0700
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2013-10-23 21:27 +0200
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions (was: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer) Dr J R Stockton <reply1300@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2013-10-18 20:43 +0100
                Re: [ES Matrix] Suggestions Mike Duffy <md_002@videotron.ca> - 2013-10-18 21:39 -0400
  Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2013-10-16 20:45 +0200
  Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-10-17 09:13 +1100
  Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Adam Silver <adambsilver@gmail.com> - 2013-10-17 00:57 -0700
    Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer "Mel Smith" <med_cutout_syntel@aol.com> - 2013-10-17 08:30 -0600
      Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2013-10-17 20:53 +0300
        Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-10-17 18:57 +0100
        Re: Crowdfunding for FAQ Maintainer Ed Jay <edMbj@aes-intl.com> - 2013-10-17 12:20 -0700

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