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Java 10

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  Java 10 Knute Johnson <nospam@rabbitbrush.frazmtn.com> - 2018-03-22 15:37 -0500
    Re: Java 10 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-22 13:43 -0700
      Re: Java 10 Uniqua Lykerd <uniqualykerd@protonmail.com> - 2018-03-30 16:56 -0400
    Re: Java 10 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 05:21 -0700
      Re: Java 10 Knute Johnson <nospam@rabbitbrush.frazmtn.com> - 2018-03-23 13:12 -0500
        Re: Java 10 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-23 14:26 -0400
          Re: Java 10 Knute Johnson <nospam@rabbitbrush.frazmtn.com> - 2018-03-23 14:36 -0500
            Re: Java 10 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-24 11:27 -0400
              Re: Java 10 Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-03-24 17:13 +0100
                Re: Java 10 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-24 12:33 -0400
                  Re: Java 10 Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-03-24 17:17 +0000
                  Re: Java 10 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 06:00 -0700
                    Re: Java 10 Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-03-26 16:18 +0000
                      Re: Java 10 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-26 13:25 -0400
                      Re: Java 10 Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2018-03-26 22:50 +0200
          Re: Java 10 Ian Pilcher <arequipeno@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 15:36 -0500
            Re: Java 10 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-24 11:30 -0400
        Re: Java 10 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 12:23 -0700

#38194 — Java 10

Just in case nobody has noticed, Java 10 is out.

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#38195

On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 4:38:02 PM UTC-4, Knute Johnson wrote:
> Just in case nobody has noticed, Java 10 is out.

I noticed that a few days ago, which is the source of my problems.  I saw there's an update for Eclipse for Java 10 support and I don't know how to update this thing properly.

I was going to ask if anyone's actually using this Java 9-10 stuff or we're all staying on 8 for awhile.

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#38221

Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
> On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 4:38:02 PM UTC-4, Knute Johnson wrote:
>> Just in case nobody has noticed, Java 10 is out.
> 
> I noticed that a few days ago, which is the source of my problems.  I saw there's an update for Eclipse for Java 10 support and I don't know how to update this thing properly.
> 
> I was going to ask if anyone's actually using this Java 9-10 stuff or we're all staying on 8 for awhile.
> 

I don't even have time to switch over. 
-- 


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

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#38197

On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 4:38:02 PM UTC-4, Knute Johnson wrote:
> Just in case nobody has noticed, Java 10 is out.

Seems Java 9-10 is just for practice.  Most will likely upgrade when 11 comes out.

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#38198

On 3/23/2018 7:21 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 4:38:02 PM UTC-4, Knute Johnson wrote:
>> Just in case nobody has noticed, Java 10 is out.
> 
> Seems Java 9-10 is just for practice.  Most will likely upgrade when 11 comes out.
> 

I've got a client that is probably going to be using 8 until the end. 
They are in a closed environment with very stable code so it doesn't 
really matter for them. I've got their code compilable on 10 so we could 
transition them if we had to.

9 added one really good fix to Swing and that is an adjustment for high 
DPI monitors.

Anything new I write will use the up to date JDK.

I need to learn some new tech though since it looks like the end of Java 
on the desktop is coming.

knute...

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#38199

On 3/23/2018 2:12 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
> I need to learn some new tech though since it looks like the end of Java 
> on the desktop is coming.

Java was never that big on the desktop.

Yes - they did say that the long term want to drop
support for AWT/Swing (will be supported in Java 11
until 2026) and JavaFX (will be supported in Java 8
until 2022).

But they also said that they were investigating options.

A model with a basic JDK/JRE as a bottom layer and then
having various silos on top of that:
* Java EE
* Java desktop
* etc.
could in my opinion be a good model.

Question is whether there is sufficient interest for
desktop to make it happen.

Arne

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#38201

On 3/23/2018 1:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 3/23/2018 2:12 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
>> I need to learn some new tech though since it looks like the end of 
>> Java on the desktop is coming.
> 
> Java was never that big on the desktop.

It's been really good to me.

> 
> Yes - they did say that the long term want to drop
> support for AWT/Swing (will be supported in Java 11
> until 2026) and JavaFX (will be supported in Java 8
> until 2022).

12 comes out this time next year, we should know for sure then :-)

> 
> But they also said that they were investigating options.
> 
> A model with a basic JDK/JRE as a bottom layer and then
> having various silos on top of that:
> * Java EE
> * Java desktop
> * etc.
> could in my opinion be a good model.

I think you are right on that score.

> 
> Question is whether there is sufficient interest for
> desktop to make it happen.
> 
> Arne

It's really nice being able to write one set of code and run it on three 
different desktops.  It has allowed us on one occasion to make the OS 
decision after the software was well along.  You think they'll keep it 
going if I ask nicely :-)

k

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#38203

On 3/23/2018 3:36 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
> On 3/23/2018 1:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> But they also said that they were investigating options.
>>
>> A model with a basic JDK/JRE as a bottom layer and then
>> having various silos on top of that:
>> * Java EE
>> * Java desktop
>> * etc.
>> could in my opinion be a good model.
> 
> I think you are right on that score.
> 
>> Question is whether there is sufficient interest for
>> desktop to make it happen.
> 
> It's really nice being able to write one set of code and run it on three 
> different desktops.  It has allowed us on one occasion to make the OS 
> decision after the software was well along.

Yes. Java made WORA a reality.

>                                             You think they'll keep it 
> going if I ask nicely :-)

Nope.

But if one day a separate Eclipse project "Java Desktop" opens up, then
it may not hurt to show some interest.

Arne

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#38205

On 2018-03-24 16:27, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 3/23/2018 3:36 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
>> On 3/23/2018 1:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> But they also said that they were investigating options.
>>>
>>> A model with a basic JDK/JRE as a bottom layer and then
>>> having various silos on top of that:
>>> * Java EE
>>> * Java desktop
>>> * etc.
>>> could in my opinion be a good model.
>>
>> I think you are right on that score.
>>
>>> Question is whether there is sufficient interest for
>>> desktop to make it happen.
>>
>> It's really nice being able to write one set of code and run it on
>> three different desktops.  It has allowed us on one occasion to make
>> the OS decision after the software was well along.
> 
> Yes. Java made WORA a reality.
> 
>>                                             You think they'll keep it
>> going if I ask nicely :-)
> 
> Nope.
> 
> But if one day a separate Eclipse project "Java Desktop" opens up, then
> it may not hurt to show some interest.

Do you guys include mobile when you say "desktop"? 'Cause there's still
Android, which is likely to be around for a while. I saw that Gluon,
which apparently took over JavaFX's Scene Builder development,
advertises uniform GUIs for both desktop sensu strictu and mobile
(Android as well as iOS).

If that is, or were to become, a working reality, it would likely make
Java GUIs a longer term thing.

-- 
DF.

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#38206

On 3/24/2018 12:13 PM, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> On 2018-03-24 16:27, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 3/23/2018 3:36 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>                                              You think they'll keep it
>>> going if I ask nicely :-)
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> But if one day a separate Eclipse project "Java Desktop" opens up, then
>> it may not hurt to show some interest.
> 
> Do you guys include mobile when you say "desktop"?

No.

>                                                      'Cause there's still
> Android, which is likely to be around for a while.

Yes. Millions of apps.

But it is Google not Oracle. And it is its own GUI framework not
AWT/Swing/JavaFX.

One could of course wonder whether a new Java desktop should
simply just take the Android GUI framework.

:-)

Arne

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#38207

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 12:33:05 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 3/24/2018 12:13 PM, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
>> On 2018-03-24 16:27, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 3/23/2018 3:36 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
>>>>                                              You
>>>>                                              think
>>>>                                              they'll
>>>>                                              keep
>>>>                                              it
>>>> going if I ask nicely :-)
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> But if one day a separate Eclipse project "Java Desktop" opens up,
>>> then it may not hurt to show some interest.
>> 
>> Do you guys include mobile when you say "desktop"?
> 
> No.
> 
>>                                                      'Cause there's
>>                                                      still
>> Android, which is likely to be around for a while.
> 
> Yes. Millions of apps.
> 
> But it is Google not Oracle. And it is its own GUI framework not
> AWT/Swing/JavaFX.
> 
> One could of course wonder whether a new Java desktop should simply just
> take the Android GUI framework.
> 
> :-)
> 
But it needs to be in addition to awt, Swing, FZ, whatever *OR* to 
include a translator if it is to replace the others.
 

-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38208

On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 12:33:27 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > Do you guys include mobile when you say "desktop"?
> 
> No.
> 
> >                                                      'Cause there's still
> > Android, which is likely to be around for a while.
> 
> Yes. Millions of apps.
> 
> But it is Google not Oracle. And it is its own GUI framework not
> AWT/Swing/JavaFX.
> 
> One could of course wonder whether a new Java desktop should
> simply just take the Android GUI framework.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Arne

The JRE only installs on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS, which is surely why most Java programming positions want someone who knows web technology.  They're trying to do the client side in universal ways, which could mean app but likely means browser as they want to support iOS and android clients.

No one can agree on screen size so there's practically a device for every size now, 4", 5", 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18 just for phone/tablet/laptop then the desktop is likely larger.  The screen could be the lowest or highest resolution available.  tvs and now some pcs have gotten to this 4k resolution and higher ones are coming.  Everything has to scale well.

I wrote a custom framework for my application using classes which extend Swing classes.  I use fixed size windows with fixed size and location of controls to make it easy for users, so the application just requires Windows or Linux or MacOS (though we currently just run it in house using Windows) and requires a minimum resolution which everyone has by now.  Most users don't need to scale but we set up a conference PC to use a tv for a monitor, which is larger than our desktop monitors so I tried to scale that, so I had to customize the JCheckBox because Swing was just using an icon for the box and not adjusting it for scale.

I have spent 10 years developing a very versatile, efficient framework on top of Swing so I'm not in a rush to replace it with the next thing which may be obsolete in a couple years.  Maybe the large companies with 100+ developers don't see that as a big deal, but to the small company with 1-2 developers it is.

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#38209

On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 06:00:23 -0700, Eric Douglas wrote:

> The JRE only installs on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS, which is surely why
> most Java programming positions want someone who knows web technology. 
> They're trying to do the client side in universal ways, which could mean
> app but likely means browser as they want to support iOS and android
> clients.
>
I think there are a few others as well: Solaris for the Oracle JVM.

The IBM JVM runs on the IBM i-series Power chips, and also in AIX and Z 
series machines under OS/400, MVS and z/OS. 

And, I suppoer the Android port shouldn't be ignored.

Finally, there seem to be 17 actively supported ports of the OpenJava JVM 
to a variety of hardware and OSen and 30 inactive ports. There are also 
10 active proprietary JVM implementations and maybe twice that number of 
inactive and lesser known ones.

> No one can agree on screen size so there's practically a device for
> every size now, 4", 5", 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18 just
> for phone/tablet/laptop then the desktop is likely larger.  The screen
> could be the lowest or highest resolution available.  tvs and now some
> pcs have gotten to this 4k resolution and higher ones are coming. 
> Everything has to scale well.
>
As I already said, the screen size in pixels is more important that 
physical measurements and, since there's a ToolKit class with a method 
that returns the screen size in pixels, its quite easy to write any app 
to be self-scaling, e.g. by specifying window and font size constants as 
a percentage of the screen size and creating a one liner static method 
for converting this into a size in pixels. It works well: I have apps 
written this way that run well on three different screen sizes with no 
tweaks of recompilation needed.

> I wrote a custom framework for my application using classes which extend
> Swing classes.  I use fixed size windows with fixed size and location of
> controls to make it easy for users, so the application just requires
> Windows or Linux or MacOS (though we currently just run it in house
> using Windows) and requires a minimum resolution which everyone has by
> now.  Most users don't need to scale but we set up a conference PC to
> use a tv for a monitor, which is larger than our desktop monitors so I
> tried to scale that, so I had to customize the JCheckBox because Swing
> was just using an icon for the box and not adjusting it for scale.
>
That would most likely be easy to adapt to automatic screen resizing as 
described above.
 

-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38210

On 3/26/2018 12:18 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 06:00:23 -0700, Eric Douglas wrote:
>> The JRE only installs on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS, which is surely why
>> most Java programming positions want someone who knows web technology.
>> They're trying to do the client side in universal ways, which could mean
>> app but likely means browser as they want to support iOS and android
>> clients.
>>
> I think there are a few others as well: Solaris for the Oracle JVM.
> 
> The IBM JVM runs on the IBM i-series Power chips, and also in AIX and Z
> series machines under OS/400, MVS and z/OS.
> 
> And, I suppoer the Android port shouldn't be ignored.

Oracle Java : Windows, Linux, MacOS X, Solaris

IBM Java : z/OS, i/OS, AIX, Linux (and available for Windows in bundled 
configs but not standalone)

OpenJDK : Windows, Linux, MacOS X (and supposedly more informally also *BSD)

Azul Zulu (really OpenJDK) : Windows, Linux, MacOS X

Azul Zing : Linux

Eclipse OpenJ9 (OpenJDK with J9 JVM) : Linux, AIX (and supposedly more 
informally also Windows and MacOS X)

HP : OpenVMS (moving to VSI), HP-UX

And probably more.

Arne

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#38211

On 26-03-18 18:18, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> As I already said, the screen size in pixels is more important that
> physical measurements and, since there's a ToolKit class with a method
> that returns the screen size in pixels, its quite easy to write any app
> to be self-scaling, e.g. by specifying window and font size constants as
> a percentage of the screen size and creating a one liner static method
> for converting this into a size in pixels. It works well: I have apps
> written this way that run well on three different screen sizes with no
> tweaks of recompilation needed.

You are wrong again on this topic. Pixel size is totally irrelevant and 
scaling a fixed grid-layout UI to a screen is NOT a viable solution.

If there is a generally usable screen unit than it is the em from CSS. I 
have a three year old smart phone with a screen of 1440x2560 pixels. But 
it can display no more than 25x40 readable characters.

There is no user friendly way you can scale a desktop UI to that screen, 
not even if you put it in landscape orientation.

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#38202

On 03/23/2018 01:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Java was never that big on the desktop.

Not big on the desktop, but it has a certain niche in things like
network device management tools, remote console viewers, etc.  I'm
certainly not looking forward to regressing to needing a Windows VM
for these sorts of things.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno@gmail.com
-------- "I grew up before Mark Zuckerberg invented friendship" --------
========================================================================

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#38204

On 3/23/2018 4:36 PM, Ian Pilcher wrote:
> On 03/23/2018 01:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Java was never that big on the desktop.
> 
> Not big on the desktop, but it has a certain niche in things like
> network device management tools, remote console viewers, etc.  I'm
> certainly not looking forward to regressing to needing a Windows VM
> for these sorts of things.

Database admin tools.

Design (UML, ER meaning of the word) tools.

Etc..

I believe there are even a few popular consumer
applications.

So there is definitely some usage.

But it is far from mainstream.

Arne

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#38200

On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 2:12:50 PM UTC-4, Knute Johnson wrote:
> I've got a client that is probably going to be using 8 until the end. 
> They are in a closed environment with very stable code so it doesn't 
> really matter for them. I've got their code compilable on 10 so we could 
> transition them if we had to.
> 

The application I maintain is only for my domain and I can determine what Java versions get installed so probably good with 8 for as long as I need.

> 9 added one really good fix to Swing and that is an adjustment for high 
> DPI monitors.
> 
> Anything new I write will use the up to date JDK.
> 
> I need to learn some new tech though since it looks like the end of Java 
> on the desktop is coming.
> 
> knute...

I believe I mentioned that before.  I wrote a Java Swing application, no technology beyond Java needed, Java server with Java client, currently using webstart.  We have the server talk directly to the client over sockets, you can also do Java client server over the web with servlets.  However I've tried searching Java Programmer job openings and they all want someone who knows webby things like Javascript and jQuery, Tomcat, AJAX, etc.  I can only guess that means the web browser is commonly the client GUI interface.

For my next project I want to create a chart, but I haven't found a Java API that looks flexible enough to show the information I need to show in the format I think makes sense.  A quick search looks like there is a Javascript library that should handle it, so it might make sense to put this piece in a web browser.  If that works well it could be a starting point for shifting more of my application to the browser.

It looks like I do need to learn at least some of that 'new tech' to qualify for a different programmer job.  Until then I think I'm pretty well qualified for a systems analyst job.

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