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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #27043 > unrolled thread

ORMs comparisons/complaints.

Started byDaniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net>
First post2013-12-22 11:05 -0800
Last post2014-01-03 15:43 -0500
Articles 3 on this page of 163 — 27 participants

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Contents

  ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-22 11:05 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 14:46 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:17 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 15:38 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:47 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:04 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:09 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:20 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:34 -0500
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2013-12-22 22:45 +0100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-22 17:33 -0800
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 12:54 +1100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:34 -0500
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-24 12:28 +0100
                        c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-24 08:49 -0500
                          Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 09:35 +1100
                            Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-24 19:35 -0500
                              Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-25 00:08 -0500
                                Re: c lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-25 09:07 +0000
                                  Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 20:41 +1100
                                    [EOD] Re: c Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-25 11:15 +0100
                                      Re: [EOD] Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 23:29 +1100
                                        Re: [EOD] Re: c The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-25 12:48 +0000
                              Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 17:46 +1100
                                Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-25 09:24 -0500
                          Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:51 -0500
                            Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:03 -0500
                              Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:40 -0500
                                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:46 -0500
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:48 -0500
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 17:38 +1100
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:57 -0500
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 10:11 +1100
                            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 19:59 -0500
                              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 12:14 +1100
                              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:02 -0500
                                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:40 +1100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-12-22 20:48 -0800
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:46 -0500
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 14:54 +1100
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:06 -0500
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:21 +1100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:04 -0500
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:32 -0500
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:47 -0500
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 08:23 +1100
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> - 2013-12-30 19:45 +0000
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Ricardo Palomaes <rpmdisguise-java@nowhere.com> - 2013-12-30 19:20 +0100
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 18:34 +0000
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 14:27 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-22 22:26 +0100
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:17 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 11:12 +0100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:35 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2014-01-06 22:19 +0100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-07 23:33 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-08 00:37 -0600
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:03 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 15:30 +0100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 03:57 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-02 21:00 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 01:34 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:56 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 01:15 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:45 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 03:59 -0400
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 15:51 -0500
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-05 23:53 +0000
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 20:00 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:38 +0000
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:41 +0000
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 12:27 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:49 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:39 +0000
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-12-22 16:11 -0800
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:08 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:36 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 22:13 +0000
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 22:09 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:30 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-31 08:11 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-01 14:20 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:05 -0500
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 14:48 +1100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:57 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:04 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:39 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:10 -0400
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-03 20:10 +0100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:34 -0400
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-04 07:02 +0100
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-01-04 14:12 +0100
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 13:53 -0500
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2014-01-08 11:48 +0200
                            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-08 14:27 -0400
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 17:17 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:54 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:09 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:54 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:18 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:45 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-23 13:25 +0100
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:27 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-30 14:38 +0100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-30 09:36 -0800
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-31 01:26 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:23 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:19 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 12:36 +0100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2014-01-02 09:36 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 21:06 +0100
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:48 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:59 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:07 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:10 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 09:44 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-23 07:22 -0600
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:20 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-25 13:56 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 10:52 -0600
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Evan Platt <evan@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:50 -0800
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 17:54 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 19:33 -0600
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 17:37 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:46 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-02 19:34 +1100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 10:02 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 23:09 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 12:22 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:06 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:17 +0000
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-04 00:41 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-03 06:41 -0600
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:56 +0000
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 12:12 -0400
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 19:30 +0000
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:04 -0400
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 22:30 +0000
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 23:44 -0400
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:28 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:08 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:22 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 00:29 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:08 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 10:18 -0400
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:24 +0000
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:10 -0400
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 10:02 +0000
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 16:02 +0000
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 17:27 +0000
                            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 12:46 -0500
                            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 19:51 +0000
                              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 19:24 -0500
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:08 -0500
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:39 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:43 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:19 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:23 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 11:34 -0400
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:58 +0000
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:01 -0500
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:44 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 15:43 -0500

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#27214

FromArne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
Date2014-01-03 16:01 -0500
Message-ID<52c7252c$0$303$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#27206
On 1/3/2014 10:58 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 03/01/14 15:34, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> I may sound a bit like the kid who claimed that the emperor had no
>> clothes, but let's be real: the object model is *not* broken when you
>> deal with relational.
>
> Bollocks, and I mean that most sincerely, If you *really* think about it
> and you're *really* honest with yourself can you think of one single
> time when you designed a system that you *knew beforehand would persist
> it's data in an RDBMS* where this knowledge didn't in some way, however
> sub-consciously impact the decisions you made when you were designing
> that system?

I think this may be a very good example of the type of argument that
Arved was thinking about.

1) There is really nothing sub-consciously flowing. If you do code
    first, then you do the object model exactly like you would if it
    were not to be persisted - there really is not any room for
    influence from persistence - attributes and associations are
    given by the problem domain. If you do database first, then
    the object model is completely and very consciously determined
    by the relational model.
2) Even in the cases where the relational model do impact the object
    model, then that does not mean that the object model is broken.
3) And even if the object model were broken, then that would not
    be any different with plain JDBC than ORM.

Arne

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#27219

FromArved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca>
Date2014-01-03 17:44 -0400
Message-ID<lbGxu.286254$6F.84948@fx03.iad>
In reply to#27214
On 01/03/2014 05:01 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/3/2014 10:58 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 03/01/14 15:34, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>> I may sound a bit like the kid who claimed that the emperor had no
>>> clothes, but let's be real: the object model is *not* broken when you
>>> deal with relational.
>>
>> Bollocks, and I mean that most sincerely, If you *really* think about it
>> and you're *really* honest with yourself can you think of one single
>> time when you designed a system that you *knew beforehand would persist
>> it's data in an RDBMS* where this knowledge didn't in some way, however
>> sub-consciously impact the decisions you made when you were designing
>> that system?
>
> I think this may be a very good example of the type of argument that
> Arved was thinking about.
>
> 1) There is really nothing sub-consciously flowing. If you do code
>     first, then you do the object model exactly like you would if it
>     were not to be persisted - there really is not any room for
>     influence from persistence - attributes and associations are
>     given by the problem domain. If you do database first, then
>     the object model is completely and very consciously determined
>     by the relational model.
> 2) Even in the cases where the relational model do impact the object
>     model, then that does not mean that the object model is broken.
> 3) And even if the object model were broken, then that would not
>     be any different with plain JDBC than ORM.
>
> Arne
>
Thank you, Arne, you just summarized my thinking much better than I 
myself did. As you pointed out better and more succinctly than I did, 
use of an ORM, as opposed to JDBC and SQL, cannot have less or more of 
an influence on object design.

AHS
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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#27213

FromArne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
Date2014-01-03 15:43 -0500
Message-ID<52c7210e$0$302$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
In reply to#27191
On 1/3/2014 4:19 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
>> On 1/2/2014 3:34 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
>>> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>> Let us say that you need to add a field.
>>>>
>>>> With an ORM you only need to update:
>>>> * one dataclass
>>>> * one mapping of data
>>>>
>>>> With plain JDBC you need to change:
>>>> * one data class
>>>> * N SQL statements
>>>> * N places in the Java code
>>>
>>> I don't understand this so I fear I must be doing something wrong in
>>> my Java programs. If someone wants to add a field in a database why do
>>> I have to alter anything in my program other than adding, for example,
>>> getString(String columnLabel) if I want to actually use the new field
>>> at that point in the program.
>>
>> The context is that the class is persisted in a relational
>> database.
>
> Thank you, it seems my fears are well founded. Does that mean that
> real Java programmers go to the trouble of breaking the relational
> model in order to maintain the object model?

????

If you use an object oriented language and a relational
database, then you will have both an object model and a
relational model.

Neither model need to be broken.

And it is not something special for Java.

The only thing special for Java may be that using an ORM instead
of a lot of handwritten code when moving data between the two models
is much more common than in many other languages.

Arne

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