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Re: updates and so on

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  Re: updates and so on Thomas Richter <thor@math.tu-berlin.de> - 2013-11-21 20:47 +0100
    Re: updates and so on "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-11-22 09:47 +1100
      Re: updates and so on Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-11-21 18:37 -0500
        Re: updates and so on "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-11-22 10:44 +1100
          Re: updates and so on Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-11-21 19:13 -0500
            Re: updates and so on "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-11-22 14:00 +1100
              Re: updates and so on Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-11-21 22:29 -0500
            Re: updates and so on Nigel Wade <nmw@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2013-11-22 13:32 +0000
              Re: updates and so on Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-11-22 20:08 -0500
      Re: updates and so on Thomas Richter <thor@math.tu-berlin.de> - 2013-11-22 09:57 +0100
        Re: updates and so on "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-11-22 20:01 +1100
          Re: updates and so on Thomas Richter <thor@math.tu-berlin.de> - 2013-11-22 10:30 +0100
            Re: updates and so on Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-09 21:15 -0500
          Re: updates and so on Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-11-24 20:14 +0000
            Re: updates and so on Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-11-24 21:33 +0100
            Re: updates and so on "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-11-25 21:21 +1100
            Re: updates and so on Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-09 21:18 -0500

#26554 — Re: updates and so on

On 21.11.2013 02:54, Stefan Ram wrote:
>    Recently, Java had to be upgraded often due to several
>    security issues and also the procedure used to update Java
>    on the clients was subject to discussions. I just read this
>    text that was written about 1995 or 1996 in an early Java
>    whitepaper:
>
>        »Operating on multiple platforms in heterogeneous
>        networks invalidates the traditional schemes of binary
>        distribution, release, upgrade, patch, and so on. To
>        survive in this jungle, the Java language must be
>        architecture-neutral, portable, and dynamically adaptable.«
>
>    But it seems that Java today still relies on that same
>    »traditional schemes of binary distribution, release,
>    upgrade, patch, and so on«. (The »jungle« of course was part
>    of a text that often is given as the source for the choice
>    of the name »Java«.)

To my understanding, two different things are meant here: a) How the 
language core and language runtime are updated, and b) how the programs 
running on this core are updated.

a) is still the same old stuff, for the same reasons binary programs 
require updating anyhow.

b) could be done in a more elegant way with java, though java programs 
are no longer "distributed" in the way envisioned back then. Nowadays, 
java programs are server-side, and not client side as envisioned, and 
thus the "dynamical update mechanism" is - as a tool for software 
deployment - not really needed. What is left from this is the very 
dynamic binding java offers, i.e. the injection of code at run time, 
server side. Though not for distribution purposes, but rather as part of 
the normal program flow, or debugging.

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#26555

"Thomas Richter"  wrote in message 
news:l6lnvr$v5g$1@news2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...

[snip]

> Nowadays, java programs are server-side, and not client side as 
> envisioned, and
thus the "dynamical update mechanism" is - as a tool for software
deployment - not really needed.

WTF? Have you not heard of Swing, Applets, Java Web Start, SWT, AWT or 
JavaFX?  Have you not heard of embedded Java or The Internet of Things?

Java is on far more platforms and devices than ever and Oracle is very 
deliberately pushing Java to be the "technology of choice" for embedded 
platforms and the IoT.  Many of these platforms require GUIs and of course 
need to be updated.

The notion that "java (sic) programs are server-side" is utter nonsense.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#26556

On 11/21/2013 5:47 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Thomas Richter"  wrote in message
> news:l6lnvr$v5g$1@news2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...
> [snip]
>> Nowadays, java programs are server-side, and not client side as
>> envisioned, and
>> thus the "dynamical update mechanism" is - as a tool for software
>> deployment - not really needed.
>
> WTF? Have you not heard of Swing, Applets, Java Web Start, SWT, AWT or
> JavaFX?  Have you not heard of embedded Java or The Internet of Things?
>
> Java is on far more platforms and devices than ever and Oracle is very
> deliberately pushing Java to be the "technology of choice" for embedded
> platforms and the IoT.  Many of these platforms require GUIs and of
> course need to be updated.
>
> The notion that "java (sic) programs are server-side" is utter nonsense.

Java is not only server side.

But if we look at the amount of Java code being written and the
number of people employed to write the code, then Java EE aka
"server side" is certainly by far the biggest share. Android, desktop
apps, applets, embedded etc. being far behind.

Arne

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#26557

"Arne Vajhøj"  wrote in message 
news:528e9928$0$293$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...

[snip]

> Java is not only server side.
>
> But if we look at the amount of Java code being written and the
> number of people employed to write the code, then Java EE aka
> "server side" is certainly by far the biggest share. Android, desktop
> apps, applets, embedded etc. being far behind.

This is undoubtedly correct.  I am merely rejecting Thomas's (implied) 
notion that we no longer need to address the issues raised by Stefan because 
Java only ever gets deployed to servers.  Again, that is utter nonsense.

BTW I made no reference to Android/Dalvik because that is not officially 
Java.  However, JavaFX will be running on iOS and Android phones and tablets 
sometime in 2014.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#26558

On 11/21/2013 6:44 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Arne Vajhøj"  wrote in message
> news:528e9928$0$293$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Java is not only server side.
>>
>> But if we look at the amount of Java code being written and the
>> number of people employed to write the code, then Java EE aka
>> "server side" is certainly by far the biggest share. Android, desktop
>> apps, applets, embedded etc. being far behind.
>
> This is undoubtedly correct.  I am merely rejecting Thomas's (implied)
> notion that we no longer need to address the issues raised by Stefan
> because Java only ever gets deployed to servers.  Again, that is utter
> nonsense.
>
> BTW I made no reference to Android/Dalvik because that is not officially
> Java.  However, JavaFX will be running on iOS and Android phones and
> tablets sometime in 2014.

Android is officially not Java.

But "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, 
then ...".

:-)

Arne

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#26562

"Arne Vajhøj"  wrote in message 
news:528ea1b0$0$297$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...

> Android is officially not Java.
>
> But "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, 
> then ...".

Don't get me started!  Of course it *is* Java (same class names, methods 
etc.) but will never be *called* Java for obvious legal reasons.

But it doesn't matter because, as I mentioned, JavaFX (and thereby Java 
itself) will soon be running on both iOS and Android.  The point is Java is 
or soon will be deployed to millions of devices which are NOT servers.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#26564

On 11/21/2013 10:00 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Arne Vajhøj"  wrote in message
> news:528ea1b0$0$297$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
>
>> Android is officially not Java.
>>
>> But "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a
>> duck, then ...".
>
> Don't get me started!  Of course it *is* Java (same class names, methods
> etc.) but will never be *called* Java for obvious legal reasons.
>
> But it doesn't matter because, as I mentioned, JavaFX (and thereby Java
> itself) will soon be running on both iOS and Android.  The point is Java
> is or soon will be deployed to millions of devices which are NOT servers.

Will be available for deployment or actually deployed?

That is a big difference!

Arne

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#26574

On 22/11/13 00:13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Android is officially not Java.
>
> But "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then ...".

You're going to get sued? ;-)

-- 
Nigel Wade

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#26587

On 11/22/2013 8:32 AM, Nigel Wade wrote:
> On 22/11/13 00:13, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Android is officially not Java.
>>
>> But "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a
>> duck, then ...".
>
> You're going to get sued? ;-)

By the ducks?

:-)

Arne

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#26568

Am 21.11.2013 23:47, schrieb Qu0ll:
> "Thomas Richter" wrote in message
> news:l6lnvr$v5g$1@news2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Nowadays, java programs are server-side, and not client side as
>> envisioned, and
> thus the "dynamical update mechanism" is - as a tool for software
> deployment - not really needed.
>
> WTF? Have you not heard of Swing, Applets, Java Web Start, SWT, AWT or
> JavaFX? Have you not heard of embedded Java or The Internet of Things?

Yes. And this application of java is dead. Oracle killed it 
successfully. Once you require from your users to "click" on an applet 
to start it, or to click on scary security warnings, the user is gone.
If it does not run on mobile devices nowadays, the user is gone, too.

Nice idea, but ridden by problem. Too late to fix, this ship sailed away 
quite a while ago.

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#26569

"Thomas Richter"  wrote in message 
news:l6n693$bas$1@news2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...

> Yes. And this application of java is dead. Oracle killed it successfully. 
> Once you require from your users to "click" on an applet to start it, or 
> to click on scary security warnings, the user is gone.
> If it does not run on mobile devices nowadays, the user is gone, too.
>
> Nice idea, but ridden by problem. Too late to fix, this ship sailed away 
> quite a while ago.

Well at least you got one thing right - applets are most definitely dead. 
But for some reason you ignored all of the other "non-server" deployment 
methods I mentioned.

The future of Java (other than the obvious server-side usages) is IoT.  And, 
I also believe that JavaFX (and hence Java) can be a big player in mobile 
and tablet space when iOS and Android support is viable next year.  It's 
being worked on by both Oracle and the JavaFX community and *will* be viable 
in the short term.

Do you still want to hang-on to your "only server" stance Thomas?

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#26570

Am 22.11.2013 10:01, schrieb Qu0ll:
> "Thomas Richter" wrote in message
> news:l6n693$bas$1@news2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...
>
>> Yes. And this application of java is dead. Oracle killed it
>> successfully. Once you require from your users to "click" on an applet
>> to start it, or to click on scary security warnings, the user is gone.
>> If it does not run on mobile devices nowadays, the user is gone, too.
>>
>> Nice idea, but ridden by problem. Too late to fix, this ship sailed
>> away quite a while ago.
>
> Well at least you got one thing right - applets are most definitely
> dead. But for some reason you ignored all of the other "non-server"
> deployment methods I mentioned.
>
> The future of Java (other than the obvious server-side usages) is IoT.
> And, I also believe that JavaFX (and hence Java) can be a big player in
> mobile and tablet space when iOS and Android support is viable next
> year. It's being worked on by both Oracle and the JavaFX community and
> *will* be viable in the short term.

I don't believe it will.

> Do you still want to hang-on to your "only server" stance Thomas?

Yup. We'll talk in a year.

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#26816

On 11/22/2013 4:30 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
> Am 22.11.2013 10:01, schrieb Qu0ll:
>> "Thomas Richter" wrote in message
>> news:l6n693$bas$1@news2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...
>>
>>> Yes. And this application of java is dead. Oracle killed it
>>> successfully. Once you require from your users to "click" on an applet
>>> to start it, or to click on scary security warnings, the user is gone.
>>> If it does not run on mobile devices nowadays, the user is gone, too.
>>>
>>> Nice idea, but ridden by problem. Too late to fix, this ship sailed
>>> away quite a while ago.
>>
>> Well at least you got one thing right - applets are most definitely
>> dead. But for some reason you ignored all of the other "non-server"
>> deployment methods I mentioned.
>>
>> The future of Java (other than the obvious server-side usages) is IoT.
>> And, I also believe that JavaFX (and hence Java) can be a big player in
>> mobile and tablet space when iOS and Android support is viable next
>> year. It's being worked on by both Oracle and the JavaFX community and
>> *will* be viable in the short term.
>
> I don't believe it will.
>
>> Do you still want to hang-on to your "only server" stance Thomas?
>
> Yup. We'll talk in a year.

We can.

But I am pretty sure that Android is not dead in a year.

Arne

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#26595

In <sv6dnQ3PC8z0gBLPnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au> Qu0ll wrote:
 
>  The future of Java [...] is IoT.  And, I also believe that JavaFX
>  (and hence Java) can be a big player in mobile and tablet space when
>  iOS and Android support is viable next year.  It's being worked on by
>  both Oracle and the JavaFX community[...]

I really don't see that happening - i.e. Oracle gaining serious momentum
with Java FX on Android or Apple devices.

Both Google and Apple have a firm grip on their mobile development
offerings. And the developers enjoy the raw power you get with native
development, a power you never had with Java ME. Would developers really
want to trade that for cross platform development bundled in a
proprietary offering controlled by Oracle?

And the users, would they accept going back to the least common
denominator-based UX reasoning that once dominated Java ME applications?
I understand that Java FX is not Java ME, but besides the possibility of
WORA, what other advantage would FX offer Android or IOS developers?

There are already a few cross platform efforts - f.x. Apache Cordova and
Xamarin - but so far I have seen none that are really gaining momentum.
Neither Microsoft or any other up and coming alternatives, like Firefox
OS, seem really interested in reviving the Java ME train or anything
like it again, and the manufacturers that used Java ME have moved on to
Android a long time ago.

Besides, isn't various Linux based platform complemented with scripting
languages, like Python, Lua, Javascript, or perhaps compiled Go, a more
likely solution for the part of IoT that is not phones and tablets?

-- 
Fredrik Jonson

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#26596

On 24 Nov 2013 20:14:44 GMT, Fredrik Jonson wrote:

> Would developers really
> want to trade that for cross platform development bundled in a
> proprietary offering controlled by Oracle?

What is more is that Android and iOS have very different interface
metaphors, and apps that try to have the same interface will look out of
place on one, and sometimes even both platforms, and be perceived as low
quality.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#26602

"Fredrik Jonson"  wrote in message 
news:slrnl94nhk.1dm.fredrik@biggles.jonson.org...

Reply at end (sorry for lack of indentation)...

In <sv6dnQ3PC8z0gBLPnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au> Qu0ll wrote:

>  The future of Java [...] is IoT.  And, I also believe that JavaFX
>  (and hence Java) can be a big player in mobile and tablet space when
>  iOS and Android support is viable next year.  It's being worked on by
>  both Oracle and the JavaFX community[...]

I really don't see that happening - i.e. Oracle gaining serious momentum
with Java FX on Android or Apple devices.

Both Google and Apple have a firm grip on their mobile development
offerings. And the developers enjoy the raw power you get with native
development, a power you never had with Java ME. Would developers really
want to trade that for cross platform development bundled in a
proprietary offering controlled by Oracle?

And the users, would they accept going back to the least common
denominator-based UX reasoning that once dominated Java ME applications?
I understand that Java FX is not Java ME, but besides the possibility of
WORA, what other advantage would FX offer Android or IOS developers?

There are already a few cross platform efforts - f.x. Apache Cordova and
Xamarin - but so far I have seen none that are really gaining momentum.
Neither Microsoft or any other up and coming alternatives, like Firefox
OS, seem really interested in reviving the Java ME train or anything
like it again, and the manufacturers that used Java ME have moved on to
Android a long time ago.

Besides, isn't various Linux based platform complemented with scripting
languages, like Python, Lua, JavaScript, or perhaps compiled Go, a more
likely solution for the part of IoT that is not phones and tablets?

------------------------------

Well, like you hinted at, JavaFX is not your grandpa's JavaME.  In fact, a 
port of JavaFX to iOS and Android will not use JIT or a traditional JVM but 
instead will use an AOT compiled application.  In this sense (and in terms 
of performance), it will be no different from any other "native" 
application.

Your point about lowest common denominator is valid however.  JavaFX apps 
would have to either emulate the native look and feel (a la Swing) or mix 
native controls and lightweight controls which is indeed possible and 
currently being worked on.  With the use of JNI as well, I think you will be 
able to build true native apps with JavaFX with the added benefit and power 
of any lightweight control you like.  It's the best of both worlds and could 
be a real competitor to traditional "native" applications developed using 
Objective-C and Android's "Java".

As for IoT, why would "Linux based platform complemented with scripting 
languages, like Python, Lua, JavaScript, or perhaps compiled Go" be any 
better than Java embedded?  Surely Java and the Java platform would provide 
a much more advanced and feature-rich API/platform than those?  And you 
would be able to reuse all your domain objects and other libraries/classes 
from your existing server and client applications.  Sounds like a real 
win-win to me!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#26817

On 11/24/2013 3:14 PM, Fredrik Jonson wrote:
> And the users, would they accept going back to the least common
> denominator-based UX reasoning that once dominated Java ME applications?

Besides the web L&F: not likely.

> There are already a few cross platform efforts - f.x. Apache Cordova and
> Xamarin - but so far I have seen none that are really gaining momentum.

Cordova/PhoneGap is actually rather widely used. But that is web
technology which benefits from synergies with web.

Arne

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