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Re: lectures about "programming methodology"

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  Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-05-05 19:48 -0400
    Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-05-06 06:07 -0300
      Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-05-06 12:00 +0200
      Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-05-06 21:38 -0400
    Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 11:25 -0700
    Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-05-06 19:20 +0000
    Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-05-06 15:42 -0400
      Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-05-06 21:25 -0400
        Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-05-06 23:19 -0400
          Re: lectures about "programming methodology" Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-05-07 21:36 -0400
          Re: lectures about "programming methodology" "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-05-08 14:44 +0100

#23844 — Re: lectures about "programming methodology"

On 5/5/2013 2:37 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>    I decided to watch lecture videos from the Stanford
>    University about »programming methodology«, which actually
>    teach Java.
>
>    I was somewhat surprised that the lectures of the renowned
>    Stanford university do not have such a high overall
>    quality at all.
>
>    For example, the lecturer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meh
>    r*n_S*h*mi, where *=a) wrote on the blackboard
>
>        »off by one error«,
>
>    but what he meant clearly was an
>
>        »off-by-one error«.

That is just to keep Lew away.

:-)

>    . Regarding Java, he explained the import statement as if
>    this was required to make a class »available«, while it does
>    nothing more than to provide a simple name for a class
>    instead of its fully qualified name. (To make a class
>    available, the »-cp« option of java(c) is used.)
>
>    He also explained that Java programs were linked by creating
>    a JAR archive for them. (While in fact the creation of a JAR
>    archive is not necessary and the linking [that is, replacing
>    symbolic references by their referents] takes place when the
>    classes are loaded by the JVM, independently of whether they
>    come from class files or JAR files.)

First, even the best universities can have some teachers that are
not so good.

Second, I believe that Harvard is more known for Law, Medicine,
Business, Economics than for IT.

Third, some say that the actual education (at bachelor and
masters level - PhD level may be different) is not that much
better at the famous universities than at lesser know
universities and that the benefits of joining is more
about the prestige and the connections one get. As I have never
seen the inside of an American university, then I can not
say if it is true or not.

Arne

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#23846

On 05/05/2013 08:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
[ SNIP ]

>
> Third, some say that the actual education (at bachelor and
> masters level - PhD level may be different) is not that much
> better at the famous universities than at lesser know
> universities and that the benefits of joining is more
> about the prestige and the connections one get. As I have never
> seen the inside of an American university, then I can not
> say if it is true or not.
>
> Arne

That's pretty much true almost anywhere. It obviously depends on the 
specific discipline, whether the eventual focus is research as a career 
or practical application, and so forth.

But for IT specifically, for preparing students for real work, I've seen 
two-year vocational/business schools or community colleges often do a 
better job of providing some programming language training and a dollop 
of useful software engineering than 4-year CS programs at name universities.

I don't know why anyone would even expect a programming language course, 
online or otherwise, offered by any school and typically taught by a 
faculty member or TA with less time in real-world programming experience 
than hundreds of thousands of professional programmers have, to either 
be particularly noteworthy or to be better than the dozens of good or 
excellent tutorials that have been on the Web for years.

I think it's pointless to pay $$$ to learn programming languages. What 
*is* a good idea to pay money for is some courses in software 
engineering, but CS programs don't often offer quality courses in that. 
Failing that option, again, no shortage of quality books on the 
subject...and simply OJT.

If I were aspiring to a career in IT, which does benefit for HR reasons 
if nothing else from a bachelor's degree minimum, I'd take a quality 
degree in almost anything except CS.

AHS

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#23847

On Mon, 06 May 2013 06:07:34 -0300, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

> But for IT specifically, for preparing students for real work, I've seen 
> two-year vocational/business schools or community colleges often do a 
> better job of providing some programming language training and a dollop 
> of useful software engineering than 4-year CS programs at name universities.

> I don't know why anyone would even expect a programming language course, 
> online or otherwise, offered by any school and typically taught by a 
> faculty member or TA with less time in real-world programming experience 
> than hundreds of thousands of professional programmers have, to either 
> be particularly noteworthy or to be better than the dozens of good or 
> excellent tutorials that have been on the Web for years.

> I think it's pointless to pay $$$ to learn programming languages. What 
> *is* a good idea to pay money for is some courses in software 
> engineering, but CS programs don't often offer quality courses in that. 
> Failing that option, again, no shortage of quality books on the 
> subject...and simply OJT.

Let's not forget that good teaching is about more than JUST the syllabus,
and the best teacher is unlikely to be the one with an autistic level to
detail, and while it would certainly be desireable to have zero mistakes in
the entire course, I would definitely not put it as the #1 priority.

Frankly, if a student trusts that their teacher is the final authority on
the subject matter, they probably aren't ever going to be on a level where
a 100% error free course would make a difference in the first place.

As grating as a teacher making a mistake may be to an outside observer,
what influences whether the students will become adept at the subject
matter is usually a lot less easily defineable.

For example, something I would rate infinitely above "Teacher never makes
any mistakes" would be "Teacher responds well to factual criticism and
repeated my correction in the next lecture".

That being said, I only found the error about linking to be substantial
enough to be worth mentioned at all.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#23872

On 5/6/2013 5:07 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 05/05/2013 08:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> [ SNIP ]
>> Third, some say that the actual education (at bachelor and
>> masters level - PhD level may be different) is not that much
>> better at the famous universities than at lesser know
>> universities and that the benefits of joining is more
>> about the prestige and the connections one get. As I have never
>> seen the inside of an American university, then I can not
>> say if it is true or not.
>
> That's pretty much true almost anywhere. It obviously depends on the
> specific discipline, whether the eventual focus is research as a career
> or practical application, and so forth.
>
> But for IT specifically, for preparing students for real work, I've seen
> two-year vocational/business schools or community colleges often do a
> better job of providing some programming language training and a dollop
> of useful software engineering than 4-year CS programs at name
> universities.
>
> I don't know why anyone would even expect a programming language course,
> online or otherwise, offered by any school and typically taught by a
> faculty member or TA with less time in real-world programming experience
> than hundreds of thousands of professional programmers have, to either
> be particularly noteworthy or to be better than the dozens of good or
> excellent tutorials that have been on the Web for years.

They should not.

Programming at a university should not be seen as a primary
goal but as an illustration for the theory being taught.

> I think it's pointless to pay $$$ to learn programming languages. What
> *is* a good idea to pay money for is some courses in software
> engineering, but CS programs don't often offer quality courses in that.
> Failing that option, again, no shortage of quality books on the
> subject...and simply OJT.

Theory need to be backed by some practical usage for students to
get the point.

Java/C#/C++ is OK for that in my opinion. OCAML/Haskell/Eiffel may
be more "in" in CS circles, but ...

I am sure that it varies, but some universities do try to teach about
software engineering.

Maybe not as good as you may want, but it is a very difficult topic.

And to make a quote from a movie: "Some lessons can't be taught. They
must be lived to be understood.". I don't think even the best possible
course can replace experience for something like that.

> If I were aspiring to a career in IT, which does benefit for HR reasons
> if nothing else from a bachelor's degree minimum, I'd take a quality
> degree in almost anything except CS.

I think CS is OK.

The success of non-CS people with degrees in other natural sciences
and engineering disciplines do show that the way of thinking is a very
big part of what is gained.

Arne

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#23861

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Stefan Ram wrote:
>>    I decided to watch lecture videos from the Stanford
>>    University about �programming methodology�, which actually
>>    teach Java.
> 
>>    I was somewhat surprised that the lectures of the renowned
>>    Stanford university do not have such a high overall
>>    quality at all.
>>
>>    For example, the lecturer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meh
>>    r*n_S*h*mi, where *=a) wrote on the blackboard
>>
>>        �off by one error�,
>>
>>    but what he meant clearly was an
>>
>>        �off-by-one error�.
>
>That is just to keep Lew away.

Speaking correct information is never a bad idea.

-- 
Lew

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#23863

On Sun, 05 May 2013 19:48:00 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> First, even the best universities can have some teachers that are not so
> good.
>
Yes.
 
> Second, I believe that Harvard is more known for Law, Medicine,
> Business, Economics than for IT.
>
A surprising number of the early computers were developed at Harvard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Mark_I

> Third, some say that the actual education (at bachelor and masters level
> - PhD level may be different) is not that much better at the famous
> universities than at lesser know universities and that the benefits of
> joining is more about the prestige and the connections one get. As I
> have never seen the inside of an American university, then I can not say
> if it is true or not.
>
Well, I sincerely hope all American computing degrees have vastly 
improved since the mid '70s. I was working with a guy with a BS in 
computer science from one of the lesser NYC schools. He was a good bright 
guy, really useful and very capable of learning on the job and 
*thinking*. Just as well, too because it turned out that his degree 
course had covered little more than COBOL programming and a bit of 
elementary systems analysis.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#23864

On 5/5/2013 7:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 2:37 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>    I decided to watch lecture videos from the Stanford
>>    University[...]
>
> Second, I believe that Harvard is more known for Law, Medicine,
> Business, Economics than for IT. [...]

     Hey, Arne: What school did you attend, and what's its
reputation for geography?

    ;-)

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#23870

On 5/6/2013 3:42 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 7:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/5/2013 2:37 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>    I decided to watch lecture videos from the Stanford
>>>    University[...]
>>
>> Second, I believe that Harvard is more known for Law, Medicine,
>> Business, Economics than for IT. [...]
>
>      Hey, Arne: What school did you attend, and what's its
> reputation for geography?

Oh shit.

That was about 3000 miles off.

:-(

Arne

PS: They don't teach geography there at all, but I don't think I
     can use that as an excuse - I must take the blame for that one.

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#23878

On 5/6/2013 9:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 5/6/2013 3:42 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 5/5/2013 7:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 5/5/2013 2:37 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>    I decided to watch lecture videos from the Stanford
>>>>    University[...]
>>>
>>> Second, I believe that Harvard is more known for Law, Medicine,
>>> Business, Economics than for IT. [...]
>>
>>      Hey, Arne: What school did you attend, and what's its
>> reputation for geography?
>
> Oh shit.
>
> That was about 3000 miles off.
>
> :-(

     Hey, well, I'm sure glad *I* never make silly misteaks!  ;-)

     FWIW,

     - Andrew Yao received his first PhD from Harvard.

     - Leslie Valiant taught at Harvard.

     - Christos Papadimitriou taught at Harvard.

     - Michael O. Rabin teaches at Harvard.

     - Kenneth E. Iverson received a Masters degree from Harvard
       and taught there for half a decade.

     - Stephen Cook received Masters and PhD degrees from Harvard.

     - Dennis M. Ritchie received undergraduate and PhD degrees
       from Harvard.

     - Ivan Sutherland taught at Harvard.

     - Butler Lampson did his undergraduate work at Harvard.

     - Fred Brooks received the PhD from Harvard.

     - Edmund M. Clarke taught at Harvard.

     - E. Allen Emerson earned his PhD from Harvard.

     If these names seem unfamiliar, look up "Turing Award" and
"Knuth Prize."

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#23914

On 5/6/2013 11:19 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 5/6/2013 9:25 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 5/6/2013 3:42 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>> On 5/5/2013 7:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 5/5/2013 2:37 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>>    I decided to watch lecture videos from the Stanford
>>>>>    University[...]
>>>>
>>>> Second, I believe that Harvard is more known for Law, Medicine,
>>>> Business, Economics than for IT. [...]
>>>
>>>      Hey, Arne: What school did you attend, and what's its
>>> reputation for geography?
>>
>> Oh shit.
>>
>> That was about 3000 miles off.
>>
>> :-(
>
>      Hey, well, I'm sure glad *I* never make silly misteaks!  ;-)
>
>      FWIW,
>
>      - Andrew Yao received his first PhD from Harvard.
>
>      - Leslie Valiant taught at Harvard.
>
>      - Christos Papadimitriou taught at Harvard.
>
>      - Michael O. Rabin teaches at Harvard.
>
>      - Kenneth E. Iverson received a Masters degree from Harvard
>        and taught there for half a decade.
>
>      - Stephen Cook received Masters and PhD degrees from Harvard.
>
>      - Dennis M. Ritchie received undergraduate and PhD degrees
>        from Harvard.
>
>      - Ivan Sutherland taught at Harvard.
>
>      - Butler Lampson did his undergraduate work at Harvard.
>
>      - Fred Brooks received the PhD from Harvard.
>
>      - Edmund M. Clarke taught at Harvard.
>
>      - E. Allen Emerson earned his PhD from Harvard.

What can I say.

Why make one mistake when it is possible to make two in the
same sentence.

:-)

Arne

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#23923

Eric Sosman wrote:
>     - Andrew Yao received his first PhD from Harvard.
>
>     - Leslie Valiant taught at Harvard.
>
>     [snip...] at Harvard [...snip]
>
>     - E. Allen Emerson earned his PhD from Harvard.
>
>     If these names seem unfamiliar, look up "Turing Award" and
> "Knuth Prize."

More than slightly disconcerting to realise how many of those names are /not/ 
familiar to me.  Study called for!

Or maybe it's just 'cos they're from Harvard ;-)

    -- chris 

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