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creating a new language

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  creating a new language mcheung63@gmail.com - 2013-07-20 22:06 -0700
    Re: creating a new language "Keith D. Lee" <keithdlee2012@gmail.com> - 2013-07-21 10:31 +0000
      Re: creating a new language mcheung63@gmail.com - 2013-07-22 02:33 -0700
    Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-07-21 09:27 -0400
      Re: creating a new language mcheung63@gmail.com - 2013-07-22 02:34 -0700
    Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-22 11:42 +0200
      Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-07-22 21:51 -0400
        Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-23 09:06 +0200
          Re: creating a new language Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2013-07-23 14:36 -0700
            Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-24 00:57 +0200
              Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-24 01:05 +0200
                Re: creating a new language Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-07-24 13:00 +0200
          Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-07-24 18:49 -0400
            Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-25 04:54 +0200
              Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-25 04:57 +0200
                Re: creating a new language Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-07-24 22:01 -0700
                  Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-25 08:16 +0200
              Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-07-25 19:44 -0400
                Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-26 10:22 +0200
                  Re: creating a new language Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2013-07-26 10:38 +0200
                    Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-02 22:21 -0400
                  Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-02 22:19 -0400
                Re: creating a new language Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-07-26 12:53 +0200
                  Re: creating a new language Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-07-26 19:32 -0300
                  Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-08-02 22:26 -0400
        Re: creating a new language Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2013-08-14 14:34 +0000
          Re: creating a new language Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-08-14 11:20 -0400
    Re: creating a new language Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-07-24 01:24 -0700
      Re: creating a new language Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-07-24 13:03 +0200
        Re: creating a new language Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-07-24 19:47 +0000
      Re: creating a new language Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-07-24 15:10 -0700
        Re: creating a new language Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-07-24 16:47 -0700
          Re: creating a new language Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-07-24 16:55 -0700
          Re: creating a new language Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-07-25 12:03 +0200
        Re: creating a new language Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-07-25 17:43 -0300
          Re: creating a new language Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-07-25 22:53 +0200
          Re: creating a new language Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-07-25 17:30 -0400
          Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-07-25 19:47 -0400
      Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-07-24 18:50 -0400
        Re: creating a new language Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2013-07-24 20:54 -0400
          Re: creating a new language Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-07-25 11:51 +0200
            Re: creating a new language Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-07-25 20:01 +0000
              Re: creating a new language Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-07-25 19:46 -0400
                Re: creating a new language Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-08-13 23:58 +0000

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#24887

On 7/26/2013 4:38 AM, Jan Burse wrote:
> Jan Burse schrieb:
>> To have a good score on your evaluation, the
>> engineering department is responsible. Or
>> at an early stage the research & development
>> department.
>
> In some product classes there is anyway the issue
> that the engineering department is unimportant.
> Since it is always possible to make top score
> in important criterias. Take for example fruit
> juice, they will all be handled hygienic, so
> in the end marketing department is the most
> important.
>
> We will soon also see an end of the engineering
> department for programming language design.
> There will be enough powerful meta languages
> around, including JIT chains, so that programming
> languages are nothing else then DSLs. It will
> be harder and harder to find differentiating
> criterias.
>
> So basically modern programming language design
> will address the taste of end-users similar
> like fruit juice does. And some end-users have
> this taste and others have this taste. Today
> you can basically launch a new language with
> 1 language engineer and 10 web designers who
> make fancy websites, blogs, etc.. about the
> new language.

Given that UI's in most cases look identical
to the end users no matter what programming
language is used, then I find that very hard
to believe.

Arne

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#24886

On 7/26/2013 4:22 AM, Jan Burse wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>> But I don't use the same process for those two scenarios.
>
> I guess you feel professionally intimitdated
> by the picture of psychological effects in decision
> making. So you herald the romantic picture of
> informed engineering decision making.

In fact I do.

> The informeed decision making where one makes
> a long weighted list of criterias, then looks
> at each product and takes the product with the
> best total score.

It can be done less or more formalized.

> But how do you choose the products for evaluation
> in the first place? There is huge noise of
> products out there. And some names will stick
> to your memory and you will consider these
> products.

Actually not.

If we look at the matrix:

                       characteristics       characteristics
                       suited for problem    not suited for problem
remember name                 A                     B
not remember name             C                     D

Then I will not consider A+B but A+C.

For C I will just need to google the characteristics to find
the name,

> And marketing is happy when it can manage to
> sneak into your mind at this early stage. For
> the evaluation process later there is no
> responsibility of the marketing department.

That is how it works for laundry detergent, canned soup etc..

But it is not how it works for programming languages.

For a couple of reasons:
* decisions are not made impulsive but after analysis
* very few programming languages has a marketing department

Arne

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#24845

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 19:44:28 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> Unless you can show that programming language names and
> business names share characteristica then I do not see
> the point.

> I can tell you that I have never tried how easy a programming
> language is too google as part of deciding what programming language
> to use for a project.

> And I would like to hear somebody say that they have. It does
> not make any sense at all.

That's because you think about it from the wrong end. Sure, once you
decided you might want to use a language, its name wont matter much. But if
you look into a language, and have a lot of trouble finding documentation,
examples and other resources on Google, you might decide that the language
is not worth the trouble of having no easy access to information, without
ever even getting to the point of promoting that language to be an actual
choice.

God knows one of the reasons I appreciate Java so much is because it is so
very easy and convenient to find whatever I want to know about it on
Google.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#24847

On 07/26/2013 07:53 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 19:44:28 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> Unless you can show that programming language names and
>> business names share characteristica then I do not see
>> the point.
>
>> I can tell you that I have never tried how easy a programming
>> language is too google as part of deciding what programming language
>> to use for a project.
>
>> And I would like to hear somebody say that they have. It does
>> not make any sense at all.
>
> That's because you think about it from the wrong end. Sure, once you
> decided you might want to use a language, its name wont matter much. But if
> you look into a language, and have a lot of trouble finding documentation,
> examples and other resources on Google, you might decide that the language
> is not worth the trouble of having no easy access to information, without
> ever even getting to the point of promoting that language to be an actual
> choice.
>
> God knows one of the reasons I appreciate Java so much is because it is so
> very easy and convenient to find whatever I want to know about it on
> Google.
>
> Liebe Gruesse,
> 		Joerg
>
The programming languages J and K, both based off APL, suffer from this 
because they are niche, albeit powerful and capable. You pretty much 
have to add "programming" or similar as a keyword.

R, on the other hand, even though it's also a single letter, has no 
problems on Google, because so many people use it.

In a way a seemingly poor name doesn't matter much on Google. In early 
stages of adoption few people locate a language through Google, because 
they don't know about it - they find out via other mechanisms. Once they 
are interested (the early adopters) they do use Google, with refined 
searches, and that generates the hits that make sure that a single-name 
search by follow-on enthusiasts does start to percolate toward the first 
few search pages. Assuming the language gets popular.

One of the problems with Java and Google is that you find so much dreck. 
There is a happy medium.

AHS
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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#24888

On 7/26/2013 6:53 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 19:44:28 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> Unless you can show that programming language names and
>> business names share characteristica then I do not see
>> the point.
>
>> I can tell you that I have never tried how easy a programming
>> language is too google as part of deciding what programming language
>> to use for a project.
>
>> And I would like to hear somebody say that they have. It does
>> not make any sense at all.
>
> That's because you think about it from the wrong end. Sure, once you
> decided you might want to use a language, its name wont matter much. But if
> you look into a language, and have a lot of trouble finding documentation,
> examples and other resources on Google, you might decide that the language
> is not worth the trouble of having no easy access to information, without
> ever even getting to the point of promoting that language to be an actual
> choice.

Lack of documentation etc. would certainly be a negative for a
programming language.

But if it is there then one can find it whether the name is
unique or not.

> God knows one of the reasons I appreciate Java so much is because it is so
> very easy and convenient to find whatever I want to know about it on
> Google.

Exactly.

Java is not a google friendly name for a programming language
as there are lots of things called Java:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_%28disambiguation%29

But in reality that is not a problem. We can easily find the
documentation etc. we need anyway. Because the other search
words we use tell Google what Java it is.

Arne

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#24974

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote [about vowel ratio in langs' names]:
> Oberon - 43%

huh?

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#24975

On 8/14/2013 10:34 AM, Andreas Leitgeb wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote [about vowel ratio in langs' names]:
>> Oberon - 43%

     Three vowels, three consonants, one parity letter (not shown).

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#24814

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:06:24 -0700 (PDT), mcheung63@gmail.com wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>   creating a new language, i want to call it Titan.

It is easy to pronounce, but it already has two meanings -- the moon
and the giants of Greek mythology.  It might also get confused with
Titian the artist.

For google, you want a unique spelling.

A cloud language might be named with a modification of some Latin word
for a type of cloud. e.g. cir, cumu

-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
Getting information off the Internet is 
like taking a drink from a fire hydrant.
~ Mitch Kapor 1950-11-01

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#24816

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 01:24:07 -0700, Roedy Green wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:06:24 -0700 (PDT), mcheung63@gmail.com wrote,
> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>   creating a new language, i want to call it Titan.
> It is easy to pronounce, but it already has two meanings -- the moon
> and the giants of Greek mythology.  It might also get confused with
> Titian the artist.

The moon is of course named after the mythology, as are a LOT of other
things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan

Who knew there was a SUNFLOWER type named Titan ? You learn something new
every day.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#24817

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:03:51 +0200, Joerg Meier wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 01:24:07 -0700, Roedy Green wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:06:24 -0700 (PDT), mcheung63@gmail.com wrote,
>> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>>   creating a new language, i want to call it Titan.
>> It is easy to pronounce, but it already has two meanings -- the moon
>> and the giants of Greek mythology.  It might also get confused with
>> Titian the artist.
> 
> The moon is of course named after the mythology, as are a LOT of other
> things:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan
>
...and notice that there are *already* six computer-related meanings for 
Titan. Another name would seem more appropriate, especially as the major 
connotations of Titan are strength and stamina rather than elegance or 
problem solving ability.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#24823

Roedy Green wrote:
> mcheung63 wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>   creating a new language, i [sic] want to call it Titan.

> It is easy to pronounce, but it already has two meanings -- the moon
> and the giants of Greek mythology. 

The moon is named after the Greek myth, so that really isn't two things, exactly.

"Titan" is also a general word meaning "large presence", as in "he is a titan of industry".

All three of those things might well be desirable associations for this new language. They 
sure don't seem like negatives or reasons to avoid the name.

> It might also get confused with Titian the artist.

Not a chance. Most people aren't as erudite as you. Those who might think you mean 
"Titian" are the sort likely to be aware that it is not the same as "Titan".

> For google, you want a unique spelling.

Not really, at least not inherently. For example, if you are interested in Java 'for' loops, 
obviously you don't search for "for", but for "Java for loop". You cannot second-guess others' 
google-fu to come up with your own name.

> A cloud language might be named with a modification of some Latin word
> for a type of cloud. e.g. cir, cumu

Ok, "cumu" is an awful name for a product. "Cumulo", maybe. "Nimbus" or some variant, surely.
"Stratus" makes sense, and so does "Cirrus".

OTOH, a cloud language (what *is* a "cloud language"?) might not be named with a variant 
of some Latin word for a type of cloud.

-- 
Lew

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#24826

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>
>The moon is named after the Greek myth, so that really isn't two things, exactly.

From the point of view of looking things up, it is two quite different
things.  Sometimes you want the moon, sometimes the mythology.  The
mythological connection is most of the time irrelevant and just a
nuisance when you google "Titan".

In a similar way "orange" the colour and "orange" the fruit are two
different things even though they are logically related.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
Truth is much too complicated to allow anything but approximations. 
 ~ John von Neumann (born: 1903-12-28 died: 1957-02-08 at age: 53)

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#24827

Roedy Green wrote:
> Lew wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>The moon is named after the Greek myth, so that really isn't two things, exactly.
> 
> From the point of view of looking things up, it is two quite different
> things.  Sometimes you want the moon, sometimes the mythology.  The

And then you add "moon" or "myth" to your search terms.

> mythological connection is most of the time irrelevant and just a
> nuisance when you google "Titan".

Anyone who just googles "Titan" doesn't know how to do online searches.

> In a similar way "orange" the colour and "orange" the fruit are two
> different things even though they are logically related.

So by your logic we should change one of those in order to make it easier to search.

Pretty much any search based on just one word is a stupidly framed search, so none of 
that argument is relevant.

-- 
Lew

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#24834

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:47:54 -0700, Roedy Green wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>The moon is named after the Greek myth, so that really isn't two things, exactly.
> From the point of view of looking things up, it is two quite different
> things.  Sometimes you want the moon, sometimes the mythology.  The
> mythological connection is most of the time irrelevant and just a
> nuisance when you google "Titan".

What Lew (and I) is trying to say is that the moon is named after the
mythological Titans, as are many other things. Saying Titan has two
meanings, and picking out the moon out of those dozens if not hundreds of
other things named after the mythology makes no sense.

Try to put yourself on the other side: if you had seen me proclaim that
Mars meant two things: the god of war, and a sugary treat, would you have
not felt like correcting that statement as well ?

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#24836

On 07/24/2013 07:10 PM, Lew wrote:
[ SNIP ]

> OTOH, a cloud language (what *is* a "cloud language"?) might not be named with a variant
> of some Latin word for a type of cloud.
>
I'm trying to wrap my head around that too, as in "what *is* a 'cloud 
language'"? In terms of being "cloud-aware", this is achievable in many 
current languages, you just need to code differently: things like not 
localizing storage, using location services, supporting horizontal 
scaleability etc.

AHS

-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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#24837

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 17:43:48 -0300, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

> On 07/24/2013 07:10 PM, Lew wrote:
> [ SNIP ]
>> OTOH, a cloud language (what *is* a "cloud language"?) might not be named with a variant
>> of some Latin word for a type of cloud.
> I'm trying to wrap my head around that too, as in "what *is* a 'cloud 
> language'"? In terms of being "cloud-aware", this is achievable in many 
> current languages, you just need to code differently: things like not 
> localizing storage, using location services, supporting horizontal 
> scaleability etc.

My guess was that it was a language designed to write applications that run
in a distributed way such as SETI@Home.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#24838

On 7/25/2013 4:43 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 07/24/2013 07:10 PM, Lew wrote:
> [ SNIP ]
>
>> OTOH, a cloud language (what *is* a "cloud language"?) might not be
>> named with a variant
>> of some Latin word for a type of cloud.
>>
> I'm trying to wrap my head around that too, as in "what *is* a 'cloud
> language'"?[...]

     A cloud language is any language used in vaporware.  That is,
any language.

     (When vaporware is loudly promoted and unusually destructive,
it's thunderware.)

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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#24842

On 7/25/2013 4:43 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 07/24/2013 07:10 PM, Lew wrote:
> [ SNIP ]
>
>> OTOH, a cloud language (what *is* a "cloud language"?) might not be
>> named with a variant
>> of some Latin word for a type of cloud.
>>
> I'm trying to wrap my head around that too, as in "what *is* a 'cloud
> language'"? In terms of being "cloud-aware", this is achievable in many
> current languages, you just need to code differently: things like not
> localizing storage, using location services, supporting horizontal
> scaleability etc.

Good question.

Languages with PaaS available??

Arne

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#24825

On 7/24/2013 4:24 AM, Roedy Green wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:06:24 -0700 (PDT), mcheung63@gmail.com wrote,
> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>>    creating a new language, i want to call it Titan.
>
> It is easy to pronounce, but it already has two meanings -- the moon
> and the giants of Greek mythology.  It might also get confused with
> Titian the artist.
>
> For google, you want a unique spelling.

So Java is doomed because there is an island with that name.

And C# is doomed because that is used in music.

I don't think so.

Arne

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#24828

On 7/24/2013 6:50 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/24/2013 4:24 AM, Roedy Green wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 22:06:24 -0700 (PDT), mcheung63@gmail.com wrote,
>> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>
>>>    creating a new language, i want to call it Titan.
>>
>> It is easy to pronounce, but it already has two meanings -- the moon
>> and the giants of Greek mythology.  It might also get confused with
>> Titian the artist.
>>
>> For google, you want a unique spelling.
>
> So Java is doomed because there is an island with that name.
>
> And C# is doomed because that is used in music.
>
> I don't think so.

     He could try "hiybbprqag" ...

-- 
Eric Sosman
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid

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