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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #29282 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700 |
| Last post | 2014-04-29 22:52 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 374 — 32 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
Epic Fail Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-04 12:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail forthisit@gmail.com - 2014-04-04 11:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-04 22:09 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:44 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 09:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 10:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-05 15:25 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:29 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 12:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 15:54 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-09 16:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 13:00 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 21:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 15:17 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 00:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-09 22:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 00:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-10 16:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:35 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-10 17:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 21:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-11 23:10 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:18 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:23 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-12 20:14 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 19:21 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:25 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 16:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 09:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-12 10:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 13:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 00:25 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 10:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-14 02:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 17:59 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 02:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 18:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 14:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 21:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 12:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:02 -0700
Automatic scoping of locals (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 03:04 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 21:42 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-11 16:13 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 22:15 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 16:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 18:42 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-13 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 04:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 11:56 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 14:53 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 07:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 21:21 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-15 04:07 -0500
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-14 09:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-14 22:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 04:10 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 02:40 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 06:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:20 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-15 12:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-15 20:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 23:50 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-15 21:31 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-16 14:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-16 06:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-19 17:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 00:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-16 22:45 -0400
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 13:07 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-23 20:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-23 14:41 -1000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-24 17:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-24 15:14 -0400
@ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:40 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 06:13 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 15:26 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 09:03 -0700
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:45 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 11:15 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:22 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:38 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 11:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 14:35 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 09:59 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:14 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:30 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:05 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:39 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 18:07 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 13:00 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 11:18 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:12 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 03:52 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 03:09 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 09:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 08:36 -1000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 10:21 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 15:41 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 12:26 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:17 +0200
Re: @ and optimization stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:21 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:20 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:02 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 20:55 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:28 -0500
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:31 +0000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:23 +0000
Re: @ and optimization hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:32 -0700
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 08:50 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-26 22:52 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 20:33 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-27 11:53 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 01:05 -0400
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 21:34 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 13:37 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 22:03 +0100
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:24 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:48 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:09 +0100
Re: @ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-24 19:17 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:27 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-25 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-26 14:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 15:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 09:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 10:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 05:06 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-26 03:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 14:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:58 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:46 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 00:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:17 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 13:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 09:11 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:45 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 21:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:31 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-27 13:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 22:19 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-14 22:02 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 18:57 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-15 05:05 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 22:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:34 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-14 13:22 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-14 11:59 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-17 16:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-17 15:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-17 23:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-18 04:38 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-18 09:17 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:44 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:41 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 16:55 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-18 19:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 12:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:36 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-20 08:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-21 10:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-21 19:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-22 20:47 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-19 11:34 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-19 16:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 12:38 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 12:11 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-21 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 04:58 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:05 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-20 19:47 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 05:03 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 11:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 08:28 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 15:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 13:23 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-22 19:19 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Todd Hughes <noemail@dontemailme.org> - 2014-04-10 11:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 06:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-10 15:50 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 11:02 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:31 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-11 03:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:08 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 17:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 18:59 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 19:11 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-11 12:05 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 22:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 20:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Epic Fail visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-04-11 14:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2014-04-12 01:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 16:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-04 23:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 16:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 06:37 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 01:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-04 17:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-05 02:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-04-04 17:46 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:59 -1000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-05 08:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-05 14:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-05 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 19:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 10:46 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 13:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 19:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 12:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-06 16:40 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-06 22:04 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 23:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 23:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:34 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:29 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:33 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 19:33 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 20:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:23 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 03:24 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:20 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 14:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 08:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 20:27 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 02:57 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:00 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 16:10 +0200
Re: Epic Fail m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-04-07 07:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-07 01:02 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:49 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 19:01 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:13 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 20:34 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:04 -0700
[OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 00:42 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:14 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:15 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:10 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:35 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:48 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-04-07 11:26 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-07 17:54 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 12:14 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 09:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 12:53 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 00:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-06 13:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 07:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:18 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 08:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 22:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-06 12:08 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 22:03 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-07 01:29 -0700
locals in nested definitions (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-07 11:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 14:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 21:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-07 19:33 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-08 09:07 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 12:35 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 16:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 16:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 23:41 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 22:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 10:43 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 07:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 08:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:02 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 23:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 15:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 17:46 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 01:06 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 02:56 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:24 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-09 02:22 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 17:07 +0300
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 03:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 07:17 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 03:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:45 -0700
Re: Epic Fail kerdezixe@gmail.com - 2014-04-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 11:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:46 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:27 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:13 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 02:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-04-29 20:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:09 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 09:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 11:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 22:52 -0700
Page 16 of 19 — ← Prev page 1 … 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 Next page →
| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 18:35 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail |
| Message-ID | <7xioqj709s.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29474 |
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > because .&. returns Int and I have to convert it to Bool. Something wrong with just comparing it to 0?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 03:17 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail |
| Message-ID | <li273j$2tq$3@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29475 |
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:35:27 -0700 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > > because .&. returns Int and I have to convert it to Bool. > > Something wrong with just comparing it to 0? No ;) -- Click OK to continue...
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 16:48 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <XoWdnaEsF74qVtzOnZ2dnUVZ8u2dnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #29330 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> writes: >> However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C >> was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was >> introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. > > I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except > maybe in some context like embedded development. I don't see why. There is no law that says programming languages used and taught in academia have to be very high-level, abstract and/or slow. For example, B, C's immediate ancestor, was developed by Martin Richards of Cambridge University. I know that was a long time ago, but surely academia can still use practical languages as well as theoretically neat ones. Here's the Cambridge tripos of today, and it looks quite down-to-earth: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1213/CST/CST.html > The MIT SICP (Scheme-based) curriculum was popular in the > 1980's-1990's and now MIT is using Python while CMU is using ML. > The ML approach sounded like it was working well: > > https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ > > "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory > curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its > very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new > course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the > sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." Oh dear. Andrew.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 15:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x61mmozv8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29336 |
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: > Here's the Cambridge tripos of today, and it looks quite > down-to-earth: > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1213/CST/CST.html Interesting. There's quite a wide variety of topics in there. It mentions C and C++ but I'd still be surprised if those are used in classroom instruction at Cambridge. It may be that the student is supposed to pick them up by him/herself or by working with tutors. The intro course lists mentions ML and Java: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1314/part1a-cst.html
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| From | Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 11:26 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <85wqf1h4np.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> |
| In reply to | #29336 |
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: > B [...] was developed by Martin Richards of Cambridge University. I think that was BCPL.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 05:21 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <o-mdnU-4H5Ou4d_OnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #29365 |
Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> wrote: > Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >> B [...] was developed by Martin Richards of Cambridge University. > > I think that was BCPL. Oh, duh. :-) Thanks, Andrew.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 17:54 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <lhul8k$ct1$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29336 |
on 06/04/2014 22:48:43, Andrew Haley wrote: > Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: >> Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> writes: >>> However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C >>> was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was >>> introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. >> >> I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except >> maybe in some context like embedded development. > > I don't see why. There is no law that says programming languages used > and taught in academia have to be very high-level, abstract and/or > slow. For example, B, C's immediate ancestor, was developed by Martin > Richards of Cambridge University. I know that was a long time ago, but > surely academia can still use practical languages as well as > theoretically neat ones. > > Here's the Cambridge tripos of today, and it looks quite > down-to-earth: > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1213/CST/CST.html > >> The MIT SICP (Scheme-based) curriculum was popular in the >> 1980's-1990's and now MIT is using Python while CMU is using ML. >> The ML approach sounded like it was working well: >> >> https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ >> >> "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory >> curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its >> very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new >> course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the >> sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." > > Oh dear. > > Andrew. Knowing (to some high degree of certainty) that you are a Brit, I can't work out if that "Oh dear" is meant to indicate disappointed surprise that MIT might do such a thing, or a touching sympathy that the poster might feel excluded from some percieved educational advantage that you know is not worth having. So; do you think it a mistake or not to reserve object-oriented design methodology to sophomores only?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 12:14 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <a7-dnT3jsoSdQN_OnZ2dnUVZ8uudnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #29381 |
Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> wrote: > on 06/04/2014 22:48:43, Andrew Haley wrote: >> Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: >>> Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> writes: >>>> However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C >>>> was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was >>>> introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. >>> >>> I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except >>> maybe in some context like embedded development. >> >> I don't see why. There is no law that says programming languages used >> and taught in academia have to be very high-level, abstract and/or >> slow. For example, B, C's immediate ancestor, was developed by Martin >> Richards of Cambridge University. I know that was a long time ago, but >> surely academia can still use practical languages as well as >> theoretically neat ones. >> >> Here's the Cambridge tripos of today, and it looks quite >> down-to-earth: >> >> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1213/CST/CST.html >> >>> The MIT SICP (Scheme-based) curriculum was popular in the >>> 1980's-1990's and now MIT is using Python while CMU is using ML. >>> The ML approach sounded like it was working well: >>> >>> https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ >>> >>> "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory >>> curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its >>> very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new >>> course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the >>> sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." >> >> Oh dear. > > Knowing (to some high degree of certainty) that you are a Brit, I > can't work out if that "Oh dear" is meant to indicate disappointed > surprise that MIT might do such a thing, or a touching sympathy that > the poster might feel excluded from some percieved educational > advantage that you know is not worth having. So; do you think it a > mistake or not to reserve object-oriented design methodology to > sophomores only? I think it's insane to make any decision based on the breathtaking misconception that object-oriented programming is anti-modular and anti-parallel. It's also a mistake to restrict OO to a subset of students. Andrew.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 16:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2014Apr7.184906@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #29336 |
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>For example, B, C's immediate ancestor, was developed by Martin
>Richards of Cambridge University.
Martin Richards developed BCPL, Ken Thompson reduced it to B, and
Dennis Ritchie extended B to C.
>I know that was a long time ago,
>but surely academia can still use practical languages as well as
>theoretically neat ones.
Unfortunately, C, as understood by the current bunch of C compiler
maintainers, is neither.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2013: http://www.euroforth.org/ef13/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 09:37 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <534271ec$0$24914$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29330 |
In article <7x7g72w93a.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: >Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> writes: >> However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C >> was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was >> introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. > >I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except >maybe in some context like embedded development. The MIT SICP >(Scheme-based) curriculum was popular in the 1980's-1990's and now MIT >is using Python while CMU is using ML. The ML approach sounded >like it was working well: > >https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ > >"Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory >curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its >very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new >course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the >sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." When working with the transputers I investigated the combination of processes and objects. (There is even a paper about it in 1994 Eurosim conference "Massively Parallel Processing".) If you map an object to a process, and work with real messages that are sent over channels, and realize that classes don't really exist, only objects exist, you can get pretty far. I'd say it would be pretty suitable for an embedded application too. This goes back to the original paradigm of objects: independant parts of a program with minimal interaction. That Java c.s has gone the opposite direction is another story. So while the decision may be correct, I'm not happy with the wording of it. Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | hughaguilar96@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 08:43 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <856803cc-625b-4d2d-bcfc-f9b372e21dd1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29318 |
On Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:46:49 AM UTC-7, Assad Ebrahim wrote: > On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 19:22:09 -0700 (PDT), hughaguilar96@yahoo.com > wrote: > >On Saturday, April 5, 2014 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > > >I think that the reason why Java replaced Pascal as the standard language taught in college, was because of its much-touted security features --- buggy or malicious programs can't wreak havoc outside of the sandbox. > > I don't think Java was competing with Pascal for airtime in > introductory courses. > > Java was competing with C. > > For a while C was the standard language being taught in Computer > Science 101. > > But C has those pesky pointers. ... I think that academia really wants a "clean" language, that doesn't have pointers or any other real-world complications --- so programming can be taught as an abstract pseudo-mathematical "science." Pascal was originally like this, which is why it was embraced by academia. Over time however, the students complained too much that learning Pascal was a waste of time, and industry complained too much that the college graduates were unprepared for real-world programming. Because of this, C was taught in college for a while, to appease the complainers. This was only a temporary solution however, because the professors hated C and wanted a clean language. It was at this time that Java was introduced. Java was a big step up from Pascal because it can be used in the real-world, while yet being a clean (and sandboxed) language that the college professors could embrace. This doesn't at all imply that Java is a good language for real-world programming --- it is a compromise between the real-world and academia. I don't have a college degree though, so I don't give a rat's elbow what academia wants!
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 12:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <53429fdf$0$24922$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29309 |
In article <228fb0b6-f8af-4fd5-800d-b84a91d8aaa7@googlegroups.com>, <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote: > >In the old days, Pascal was the standard language taught in college. A >problem with Pascal however, is that each programmer on a multi-user >computer doesn't get his own "sandbox." This is a big problem because >the students tend to write buggy programs that can bring the whole >system down. Also, the smarter ones tend to write programs that snoop >into other users' space --- definitely a problem if the teacher has his >stuff (like the homework answers, or the upcoming exam) on the same >computer that the students are using. I was there in the old days. The idea that the one supercomputer the university owned could be brought down by a faulty Pascal program is ludicrous in the extreme. FORTRAN programs might end in a crash, (*not* bringing the system down!) and I got a dump (at the time fully incomprehensible to me) with register values in hexadecimal. Pascal, algol xx and Simula programs all ended with messages in a style like we see now in Python: array index out of bounds at line 137 in procedure aaax, called from line 13 in procedure bbbbx ... called from line 3 in procedure main. Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | mhx@iae.nl |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 00:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <917ac327-53fc-4a88-9966-89677c338f12@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29305 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes Re: Epic Fail [..] > People want two things from a language: > 1) Given a blank screen and a problem to solve, they want to be able to > bang out a solution quickly. > 2) Given a large existing program and a bug report (that might be an > enhancement request), they again want to be able to bang out a solution > quickly, WITHOUT requiring having the existing codebase in their head > before they start. > Most Forth success stories I've heard are about desire #1. Those kinds > of successes are of course perfectly great. It seems to me that Forth > was designed for #1 but has various aspects (lack of a type system, > roll-your-own everything) that aren't so great for #2. Can you elaborate on #2, *why* you think Forth is not great there (but Java is)? I am currently looking into the SPICE 3f5 codebase, and I certainly wish it would have been written in Forth (by competent programmers). In its present state it is nearly unmaintainable and cannot be improved (without extreme effort). What seems to happen is that contributors "patch on" small enhancements, and, for fear that something else will break, write all their own routines by copy-and-paste with tiny undocumented modifications. Reading this type of code *really* shows one why factoring is such a great concept. -marcel
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 13:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <534152b7$0$25039$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29317 |
In article <917ac327-53fc-4a88-9966-89677c338f12@googlegroups.com>, <mhx@iae.nl> wrote: >Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes Re: Epic Fail >[..] >> People want two things from a language: > >> 1) Given a blank screen and a problem to solve, they want to be able to >> bang out a solution quickly. > >> 2) Given a large existing program and a bug report (that might be an >> enhancement request), they again want to be able to bang out a solution >> quickly, WITHOUT requiring having the existing codebase in their head >> before they start. > >> Most Forth success stories I've heard are about desire #1. Those kinds >> of successes are of course perfectly great. It seems to me that Forth >> was designed for #1 but has various aspects (lack of a type system, >> roll-your-own everything) that aren't so great for #2. I must thank you, Paul, for yet another insightful comment. > >Can you elaborate on #2, *why* you think Forth is not great there >(but Java is)? > >I am currently looking into the SPICE 3f5 codebase, and I certainly >wish it would have been written in Forth (by competent programmers). >In its present state it is nearly unmaintainable and cannot be improved >(without extreme effort). What seems to happen is that contributors >"patch on" small enhancements, and, for fear that something else will >break, write all their own routines by copy-and-paste with tiny >undocumented modifications. >Reading this type of code *really* shows one why factoring is such >a great concept. I can elaborate on 2. Surely you will admit that manx was written by a competent programmer. I'm one of those that are in the camp of joel http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html Things you never should do: "rewrite a working software package from scratch". Still I gave up on manx. I couldn't transform it in a program that had proper instrument drivers, and would handle multiple instruments on the same parallel port. This was after at least a month effort. Then I started a rewrite. After about a week I had a program that wasn't perfect but had the proper isolation of timings and instruments and that I could understand better. I've done a lot of perfective maintenance in my time. In those non-Forth project I've never been in a situation that I wasn't able to totally transform a lousy program to a maintainable state. Or for that matter, address a problem and solve it without jeopardizing the architecture. Another example is the colorforth development system of GA144. Leon and I had the parallel prime counting program (parpi) running on the old development kit Seaforth. We had to make some small modifications to the tools, regards routing i.a. With the new version of the development system, we had such a hard time retrofitting our modifications, that we all but have given up on it. Even after we forced the development system into source control (which was no small feat), we didn't manage. It blends with the remarks about Chuck's Moore style. Experiment until you have the design in your head. Then write the whole program anew and in one go. This relates to those who saw him work: "He didn't (need) spend time on debugging". The interesting thing is of course that now I'm of the opinion that it is pretty easy to do type 2 things to the manx2 program. For example I've added an organ instrument that requires a permanent relay current. Shortly I will modify that to use an initial long pulse and then PWM modulated hold current, without having to disturb the architecture of manx2. (This will save us a couple of dozen 2500 uF condensers.) > >-marcel Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | mhx@iae.nl |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 07:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4342ab89-37af-422b-a119-af4fe9c6136b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29320 |
albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes Re: Epic Fail [..] >>Can you elaborate on #2, *why* you think Forth is not great there >>(but Java is)? [..] > I can elaborate on 2. Surely you will admit that manx was written by a > competent programmer. I'm one of those that are in the camp of joel > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html > Things you never should do: > "rewrite a working software package from scratch". A single programmer can't rewrite SPICE. Life is too short. It would be possible to forge SPICE into something useful to do just what I need. But I already have/did that, and need SPICE to cater for those other people in the world that want to do what I can do, but on top of regular SPICE. > Still I gave up on manx. I couldn't transform it in a program that > had proper instrument drivers, and would handle multiple instruments > on the same parallel port. This was after at least a month effort. Funny you should say that. I wrote manx to hide as much of the internal details as possible (because it was in vogue to think like that, and I wanted to see if it would work). My conclusion was that I would *never* structure my programs like that anymore, and that they should always be introspective. [..] > The interesting thing is of course that now I'm of the opinion > that it is pretty easy to do type 2 things to the manx2 program. Yes, because you rewrote it yourself from scratch. I probably wouldn't be able to understand a word of the code as it is now :-) But that is surely not true in general, and I am interested in the opinion Paul has formed on this (and especially: how). -marcel
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 10:18 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <53427b64$0$24914$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29323 |
In article <4342ab89-37af-422b-a119-af4fe9c6136b@googlegroups.com>, <mhx@iae.nl> wrote: >albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes Re: Epic Fail >[..] >>>Can you elaborate on #2, *why* you think Forth is not great there >>>(but Java is)? >[..] >> I can elaborate on 2. Surely you will admit that manx was written by a >> competent programmer. I'm one of those that are in the camp of joel >> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html >> Things you never should do: >> "rewrite a working software package from scratch". > >A single programmer can't rewrite SPICE. Life is too short. >It would be possible to forge SPICE into something useful to do >just what I need. But I already have/did that, and need SPICE to cater >for those other people in the world that want to do what I can >do, but on top of regular SPICE. > >> Still I gave up on manx. I couldn't transform it in a program that >> had proper instrument drivers, and would handle multiple instruments >> on the same parallel port. This was after at least a month effort. > >Funny you should say that. I wrote manx to hide as much of the internal >details as possible (because it was in vogue to think like that, and I >wanted to see if it would work). My conclusion was that I would *never* >structure my programs like that anymore, and that they should always be >introspective. You consider it a failed experiment then. That make is all the more interesting to see what you think of manx as it is now. It leans on midi, as there are two parts, generating midi and executing midi, and the only connection is midi. (I could make two Forth programs working through a pipe, and then replace one program with the midi sound system of Linux.) So data hiding is an important design goal. midi is an excellent abstraction, and of course it is invented by people who where experts in the field of music. > >[..] > >> The interesting thing is of course that now I'm of the opinion >> that it is pretty easy to do type 2 things to the manx2 program. > >Yes, because you rewrote it yourself from scratch. I probably wouldn't >be able to understand a word of the code as it is now :-) You (and everybody) can get a crack at that. The source are available at manx.html at the site below. > >But that is surely not true in general, and I am interested in the >opinion Paul has formed on this (and especially: how). > >-marcel -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 08:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x38hqmqjz.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29317 |
mhx@iae.nl writes: > Can you elaborate on #2, *why* you think Forth is not great there > (but Java is)? I don't know that Java is so great at #2 either, but it made serious efforts that were considered credible in the 1990's, though in retrospect were not 100% successful. The most obvious things: 1) memory safety makes testing more effective and debugging much simpler 2) static type system immediately catches lots of errors caused by incomplete understanding of how the program is organized. It also aids refactoring by letting compiler globally find errors introduced by locally changing something's type signature. 3) data encapsulation and interfaces further refine the above 4) garbage collection localizes most concerns about object lifetimes. You don't have to worry about what distant parts of the program do with an object after you have made it. 5) library ecosystem puts several layers of the program into common knowledge (shared across programs and part of the programmer's skillset). Forth programs do everything from scratch, differently in every program > I am currently looking into the SPICE 3f5 codebase, That is written in C, which has most of the same problems as Forth.
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| From | hughaguilar96@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 08:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d5c7fb0c-5e3b-4ca9-adc9-a53f79724195@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29325 |
On Sunday, April 6, 2014 8:21:52 AM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > 5) library ecosystem puts several layers of the program into common > knowledge (shared across programs and part of the programmer's > skillset). Forth programs do everything from scratch, differently > in every program This is not a failure of Forth (the language), this is a failure of ANS-Forth (which is really just SwiftForth). I really see no reason why Forth can't have quotations (I mean real quotations that have access to the creator function's local variables, not Payson-faked quotations that are just :NONAME with some syntactic sugar). If Forth had quotations, then it would be possible to have libraries of "containers" and the programmer could apply a quotation to every node (or some subset of the nodes) in the container. It is grossly wrong to say: "Forth programs do everything from scratch, differently in every program" --- this is Elizabeth Rather's philosophy --- nobody with any common sense should ever say such a thing!
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 22:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhscft$url$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #29325 |
Paul Rubin wrote: > 5) library ecosystem puts several layers of the program into common > knowledge (shared across programs and part of the programmer's > skillset). Forth programs do everything from scratch, differently > in every program That's vastly overstating it. Forth programmers usually have a toolbox they carry around with them, but different Forth programmers have different toolboxes, because they can't agree on the tools. The problem with reusable components has been illustrated by Fred Books, with his "9 times the effort" conclusion. Most programs end up at the "works for me" quality level, which is much easier to achieve. However, that's true for Java software, as well. Example: When I started Gforth on Android, I used the NativeActivity. This is a Java class (plus C++ code), which loads a library and allows you to write native code. The quality of the NativeActivity is clearly in the "works for me" region, as there are many bugs (like e.g. the keyboard is limited to ASCII), and despite it is constantly changing from one Android version to the next, the number of bugs is not even going down (sometimes even going up). Resulting decision: Throw it away and do it myself. Took a few days, and the result fixed all the bugs the NativeActivity had, *and* was much less source-code. And it works from Android 2.3 to 4.4 without a single version- dependent change. The result is also way more maintainable - for me. So why didn't Google do it my way? One possibility is that they are stupid (and the fact that they don't get NativeActivity bug-free supports that assertion). However: my solution is a "works for me" solution. Certainly, my constraints are quite different, e.g. "works for me" means I can input non-ASCII characters; let them be German or Chinese. However, the original idea of NativeActivity is that you don't need any Java. My approach requires that you use JNI to call Java even for simple things like to extract the characters from a keyboard message (yes, that fixes the bug). Fortunately, in Forth, it is possible to create a JNI interface that integrates well - in C, this is way more difficult to achieve (that's due to Forth's extensibility). However, when you think about maintainability: The biggest Forth program, CCS, is a million lines of code. It is developed by a team, not by a single person. It has been growing for over a decade or two. I.e. it's in constant maintenance. It has its own OOP system, and I don't know what else it has; for sure, it has all the infrastructure it needs (which is a lot). There's a rule for most parts of its code-base and that is "no guru code allowed". That means I wouldn't like what I see when I would look at it. It is highly competitive; you would think that this kind of business planning/financial application would best be done in Java, because most people do this kind of stuff in Java - and not in Forth, which is usually used for embedded stuff. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 12:08 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <7tOdnYTX6eabSdzOnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #29331 |
On 4/6/2014 10:12 AM, Bernd Paysan wrote: > Paul Rubin wrote: >> 5) library ecosystem puts several layers of the program into common >> knowledge (shared across programs and part of the programmer's >> skillset). Forth programs do everything from scratch, differently >> in every program > > That's vastly overstating it. Forth programmers usually have a toolbox they > carry around with them, but different Forth programmers have different > toolboxes, because they can't agree on the tools. I think the problem isn't so much a lack of agreement as differing needs. Programmers build toolboxes in response to needs they encounter in the applications they work on. Teams working on an application generally agree on a team toolbox. It's part of seeing Forth as an "application-oriented language". > The problem with reusable components has been illustrated by Fred Books, > with his "9 times the effort" conclusion. Most programs end up at the "works > for me" quality level, which is much easier to achieve. However, that's > true for Java software, as well. It's also often true that once a facility has been generalized enough to be used in a lot of situations it's bloated and less appropriate for each one. ... > > However, when you think about maintainability: The biggest Forth program, > CCS, is a million lines of code. It is developed by a team, not by a single > person. It has been growing for over a decade or two. I.e. it's in > constant maintenance. It has its own OOP system, and I don't know what else > it has; for sure, it has all the infrastructure it needs (which is a lot). > There's a rule for most parts of its code-base and that is "no guru code > allowed". That means I wouldn't like what I see when I would look at it. > It is highly competitive; you would think that this kind of business > planning/financial application would best be done in Java, because most > people do this kind of stuff in Java - and not in Forth, which is usually > used for embedded stuff. We have numerous customers who have maintained Forth applications over many years, many generations of the products or systems they control, and even generations of programmers doing the maintaining. The oldest I am aware of has been operating since the late 70's. It is quite possible to write maintainable Forth code, at least as possible as with any other language I know. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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