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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #53455 > unrolled thread
| Started by | awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-12-21 01:19 +0100 |
| Last post | 2017-01-08 16:55 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 266 — 26 participants |
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"Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-21 01:19 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-24 05:40 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 06:01 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-25 19:27 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-26 18:16 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-27 14:27 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-27 14:29 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-27 14:27 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-28 11:35 +1100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-12-27 17:38 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-29 10:11 +1100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-29 17:06 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-28 05:39 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-27 22:37 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package crc <charles.childers@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 05:40 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-28 23:03 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-30 20:54 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 20:17 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package mhx@iae.nl - 2017-01-02 12:22 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-02 22:08 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 21:40 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-03 13:51 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 21:51 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-06 19:36 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-07 14:55 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-07 19:01 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-01-08 12:06 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-08 16:46 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2017-01-03 15:59 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-27 23:12 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-30 20:54 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-28 04:57 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-28 11:23 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-28 23:16 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-30 16:31 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2016-12-30 15:21 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-01-05 12:00 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-05 13:30 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-05 17:32 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-06 02:50 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-05 18:20 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-06 17:58 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-07 14:55 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-05 16:15 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-01-10 08:43 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-30 14:37 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-30 15:57 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-30 17:19 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-30 21:10 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-30 12:44 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 15:43 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-31 00:09 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-03 17:25 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-30 22:47 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-31 03:31 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-30 15:46 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 15:05 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-31 00:26 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-31 11:49 +1100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-30 15:21 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-01-02 11:11 +1100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-02 00:28 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 17:45 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-01 20:57 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 06:55 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-02 10:44 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 07:01 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-02 15:46 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package john <anon@example.com> - 2017-01-02 16:54 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 10:23 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 10:06 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-02 19:13 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 14:08 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package mhx@iae.nl - 2017-01-02 14:46 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-02 17:10 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-02 21:58 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-03 15:54 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-01-04 06:21 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-04 11:19 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-04 22:34 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-04 14:44 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-01-04 15:13 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-05 08:18 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-04 23:17 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-05 04:15 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package mhx@iae.nl - 2017-01-08 01:18 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-08 15:52 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-08 21:00 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 15:58 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-09 17:39 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-09 18:53 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-12 06:27 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-12 13:44 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-12 17:36 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-13 03:17 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-13 14:44 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-13 14:43 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-14 00:23 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-14 11:52 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-14 16:00 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-14 11:51 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-14 15:06 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-15 14:54 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-15 13:33 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-13 16:06 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-14 00:25 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-13 18:00 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-13 22:17 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-13 16:04 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-13 15:08 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-13 17:21 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-14 11:26 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-13 18:21 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-13 18:30 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-13 22:20 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-14 10:43 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-14 15:47 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-14 17:30 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-14 18:16 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 13:53 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-15 14:09 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 15:48 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-15 16:00 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-15 12:48 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-14 10:10 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-15 17:56 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 17:05 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-15 17:35 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-15 19:20 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-01-15 23:51 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-15 19:22 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-18 16:24 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-01-18 18:40 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-19 06:46 +0200
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-18 23:25 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-19 09:47 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-19 02:44 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-19 06:16 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-19 07:43 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-19 11:07 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-19 14:58 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-20 03:48 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-20 06:54 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-20 09:11 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-20 07:30 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-20 12:12 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-20 16:27 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-21 03:24 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 12:47 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-22 14:41 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 15:57 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-23 04:05 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-23 10:47 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-01-24 01:02 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-24 01:12 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 16:28 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-01-24 01:06 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-24 03:22 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-24 14:19 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-24 03:13 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-24 08:08 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-24 14:23 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-24 09:10 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-24 15:35 +0000
Persitent memory (was Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-24 14:19 -0500
Re: Persitent memory (was Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-24 15:00 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-24 14:49 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-25 03:26 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-26 04:27 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-26 08:35 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-21 14:19 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 12:55 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-19 15:28 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-19 14:44 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-01-19 20:30 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-20 18:21 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-20 03:52 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-20 06:58 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-20 12:57 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-20 16:31 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-20 17:31 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-19 08:48 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-19 17:18 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package alex@rivadpm.com - 2017-01-19 11:01 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-19 14:51 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-19 13:07 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-19 14:26 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-16 09:03 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-15 15:08 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 17:23 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-01-15 22:18 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-16 09:08 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-18 06:56 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-14 09:31 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-15 17:33 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-10 09:55 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-09 04:05 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 16:00 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-10 04:13 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-12 06:40 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 21:07 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-03 04:46 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-03 16:11 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-04 04:27 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-04 14:26 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-04 23:09 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-05 00:02 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-05 02:19 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-05 05:56 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-05 06:33 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-05 16:56 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-05 19:03 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-06 06:45 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-05 04:27 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-05 06:22 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-05 09:10 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-04 23:05 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 22:05 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-04 13:44 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-01 20:53 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-01 19:55 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-01 21:13 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 07:14 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-02 07:42 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-03 02:00 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-01-03 00:13 -0500
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-02 22:02 -1000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-03 11:19 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 21:37 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 21:55 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-03 11:26 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-02 10:47 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 20:57 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 18:35 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-31 04:29 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-31 10:19 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-02 17:08 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-01-06 13:39 +1100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-05 19:13 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-27 23:57 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2016-12-30 20:54 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-29 19:05 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-29 19:38 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-30 15:24 +1100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-30 16:01 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 14:33 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-29 16:04 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-30 12:42 +1100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-30 07:24 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 12:50 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-30 21:43 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 14:38 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-31 10:31 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 07:04 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 07:07 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-31 07:46 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 08:28 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-30 16:53 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-06 20:49 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-01-06 23:28 -0600
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-06 22:22 -0800
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-07 14:55 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-07 21:20 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2017-01-07 22:57 +0100
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-08 17:02 +0000
Re: "Hello world" using Hughs novice package hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-08 16:55 -0800
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-04 14:44 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <ac38a18f-1d4d-4ee5-82a6-823e3f048d62@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53730 |
> Dear Ilya, what you want to achieve? This is elementary - if I have something to say, I need to test this. This should lead to corrections of my position of corrections to my agruments or style of representing ideas. Without this, one will face the same during conversation with real customer. Do you need to reveal your weaknesses when contract is ready to sign? > THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE GROUP TO THE STANDARDS GROUP, which means people might have good ideas - but are not interested to contribute, have it judged and integrated as part of the Forth Standard - or not. Or form another group. Try to visit www.fforum.winglion.ru There are 300 subscribers in Russia, and I know many forthera are not there. I have no ideas about China or India. Related to Russia, there are professional progammers who don't want to contribute due to Standard Group politics. > There are loads of moaners and trolls here, many of them would get a well deserved kick in the teeth if met in person, as they are wasting our time and are sometimes rather aggressive and insulting - they would never dare to show the same behavior in personal meetings - as the reactions of the others are very predictable. This is not a solution indeed. Explain to troll, for example, why HDMI + USB 3.0 is not a major achievement for Forth. When ignore stupid questions. Conflict escalation is for weak persons. > So what do you want? 1. Positive result - Forth is driving forward after comparing and aligning approaches. 2. Neutral result - you are not interested and I understand why. 3. Negative result - I see non-adequate reaction and note there is nothing to catch here. Your choice.
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| From | JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-04 15:13 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <7df45164-b784-4731-bc18-efeb15dfa761@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53736 |
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 10:44:46 PM UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > Dear Ilya, what you want to achieve? > > This is elementary - if I have something to say, I need to test this. This should lead to corrections of my position of corrections to my agruments or style of representing ideas. Without this, one will face the same during conversation with real customer. Do you need to reveal your weaknesses when contract is ready to sign? > > > THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE GROUP TO THE STANDARDS GROUP, which means people might have good ideas - but are not interested to contribute, have it judged and integrated as part of the Forth Standard - or not. Or form another group. > > Try to visit www.fforum.winglion.ru There are 300 subscribers in Russia, and I know many forthera are not there. I have no ideas about China or India. Related to Russia, there are professional progammers who don't want to contribute due to Standard Group politics. > > > There are loads of moaners and trolls here, many of them would get a well deserved kick in the teeth if met in person, as they are wasting our time and are sometimes rather aggressive and insulting - they would never dare to show the same behavior in personal meetings - as the reactions of the others are very predictable. > > This is not a solution indeed. Explain to troll, for example, why HDMI + USB 3.0 is not a major achievement for Forth. When ignore stupid questions. Conflict escalation is for weak persons. > > > So what do you want? > > 1. Positive result - Forth is driving forward after comparing and aligning approaches. > 2. Neutral result - you are not interested and I understand why. > 3. Negative result - I see non-adequate reaction and note there is nothing to catch here. > > Your choice. Dear Ilya, I was trying to be positive and your answers are supporting this - thank you. It is a bit late in the UK now, and enjoying your answers; I would like to take a bit more time tomorrow to read and answer. Yes I agree, there is a world of Forth programmers and I do not know about it like Russia, India, China and others but probably more than we know about - they unfortunately have not spoken much. But I would like to understand their interests and contributions more. Over the last few years I tried to start a Forth eBook Library at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM and got further than I had expected - and this is what I tried to express - contribute to the group and help rather than only critizise as many have done. Like ANS - it is unfortunately the best we have until there is a better solution. Thanks again for your feedback - much appreciated - and any critisism ok.
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-05 08:18 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <9bd823d5-dc3a-4cf6-a4f1-322af3a381b1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53741 |
> Dear Ilya, I was trying to be positive and your answers are supporting this - thank you. > It is a bit late in the UK now, and enjoying your answers; I would like to take a bit more time tomorrow to read and answer. > Yes I agree, there is a world of Forth programmers and I do not know about it like Russia, India, China and others but probably more than we know about > - they unfortunately have not spoken much. > But I would like to understand their interests and contributions more. This is really actual (and hard) problem to solve. If things are going not so good, there is a time to non-trivial action. I'm not interested on explaining how DUP works and why Forth use postfix notation. I suppose you are don't have a plans to do the same too. Extending the area of conversation should lead to finding a real common things, which may be shared between forthers worldwide without any discomfort. I'm agreed this is not easy process, with mutual critics and risk of personal insults. However, I strictly prefer to hear all critics from persons rather than meet the same problem in my program/hardware. So I'm ready to conversation about things 'as is'. > Over the last few years I tried to start a Forth eBook Library at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM > and got further than I had expected This looks impressive. Writing technical books is a good way to improve skill, when you are professional. Content organization is a very intresting question however. This is a perspective question to discuss :) Just for minimazing further questions: http://www.techbook.ru/book_list.php?str_author=%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%20%D0%98.%D0%95. > - and this is what I tried to express - contribute to the group and help rather than only critizise as many have done. > Like ANS - it is unfortunately the best we have until there is a better solution. > Thanks again for your feedback - much appreciated - and any critisism ok. Critics is a base and absolutely required process for science (and professional engineering activity too). This must not be interpreted as insulting or attempts to deface. This is a simple rule - solve a problem now in theory, or you will must solve the same for the real project.
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| From | Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-04 23:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <o4jvnt$3gp$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #53736 |
On 1/4/2017 22:44, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > Related to Russia, there are professional progammers who don't want > to contribute due to Standard Group politics. Who are these people, and what politics are you referring to? (It's at this point and having read your last 5 or so posts, that I'm begiining to think that you're making stuff up.) -- Alex
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-05 04:15 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <-fGdnQZ9XqQ0gfPFnZ2dnUU7-XednZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #53736 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > 1. Positive result - Forth is driving forward after comparing and > aligning approaches. > 2. Neutral result - you are not interested and I understand why. > 3. Negative result - I see non-adequate reaction and note there is > nothing to catch here. > > Your choice. It's your choice too. It takes two people to have a conversation. Andrew.
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| From | mhx@iae.nl |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-08 01:18 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <6a231c43-a8e9-422b-b18c-2be7cda20e45@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53719 |
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 12:55:00 AM UTC+1, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > Sorry, you know nothing about the ANS Forth process. Over a 6-year > > period, with meetings 4x/year, we developed strategy, methodology, and > > worked very hard to ensure operational compatibility with existing > > Forth83 systems and applications while removing constraints (such as the > > 16-bit requirement) to enable implementation freedom with > > application-level stability. > > You already post it here, I remember it. > When I point to disadvantages of methodology > carrying on, Ertl suggest me to write an overview > of current situation. This kind of document usually > appears as a result of researchers team work, with at > least several months of efforts and many drafts. Moreover, > single man cannot overview all kinds of programming > languages and cannot estimate all applicable area > domains. Don't write about stuff you have no idea about, limit yourself to what you think is valid Forth and find the falsifiable arguments and facts that prove this. History, technical matters, observed common practice, but not just beliefs and "opinions". The committee consists of experts that can properly weigh your concern, once they know what is, and add context or enhance with additional detail. Your write-up is on a standardization matter, it is not a technical proposal for a unique new feature or a non-existing or non-proven extension. -marcel
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-08 15:52 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <8dcad420-06a8-47d9-a05f-5767a588c7ee@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53846 |
> Don't write about stuff you have no idea about, limit yourself Why do you think I have no idea about such kind of things? :) > "opinions". The committee consists of experts that can properly No, don't mix expert level for RL and so-called experts of small community. There is a set of objective markers, indicating real level of technical direction. Now I see: 1. Elizabeth Rather states Forth Inc has 2 programmers for full time. I'm not sure she was serious, since this is pity. 2. I cannot get an answer what bright project was completed by any of 'experts' last time. I mean a value of total income, quantity of copies sold etc. I understand a programmer stubborn enough may use Forth just to approve he is smart Forth programmer, but what about new users? 3. Several years ago Forth was at ~35 line in TIOBE rating. Currently it is not listed in top50. Show me another rating, if you think it is more representative. 4. Anyone who involved in scientific activity should be able to discuss strategic matters, which are common for most areas of science, including computer science. Simple questions, such as 'what is your goal', 'what list of tasks you want to solve', 'what kind of features/disadvantages you can describe', 'what problems are most important in this area' must be answered, at least briefly. I was surprised Ertl is a PhD. I want to see how he names any Professor in his university a frustrated troll when asked similar questions :) Finally, I can't agrees thigs are going well now. I can't dictate a time when to start makes it better, it is a choice of any interested person. However, strong efforts in right direction makes people happy when they becomes successful. This is better when criyng and waiting for hundreds of new users.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-08 21:00 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <soudncYAMOe2qO7FnZ2dnUU7-YnNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #53872 |
On 1/8/17 1:52 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >> Don't write about stuff you have no idea about, limit yourself > > Why do you think I have no idea about such kind of things? :) > >> "opinions". The committee consists of experts that can properly > > No, don't mix expert level for RL and so-called experts of small > community. There is a set of objective markers, indicating real > level of technical direction. Now I see: > 1. Elizabeth Rather states Forth Inc has 2 programmers for full time. > I'm not sure she was serious, since this is pity. I waffled because I have been retired for 10 years and am not sure how many staff Leon Wagner, who has been President of FORTH, Inc. since I left, has. I suspect the number varies depending upon what projects are current at any one time, and also includes contractors. > 2. I cannot get an answer what bright project was completed by any of > 'experts' last time. I mean a value of total income, quantity of copies > sold etc. I understand a programmer stubborn enough may use Forth just > to approve he is smart Forth programmer, but what about new users? Featured Forth applications: https://www.forth.com/resources/forth-apps/ > 3. Several years ago Forth was at ~35 line in TIOBE rating. Currently > it is not listed in top50. Show me another rating, if you think it is > more representative. I have no idea how those ratings are developed or what they are based on, since in my experience companies rarely advertise what language was used in their projects. > 4. Anyone who involved in scientific activity should be able to discuss > strategic matters, which are common for most areas of science, including > computer science. Simple questions, such as 'what is your goal', 'what > list of tasks you want to solve', 'what kind of features/disadvantages > you can describe', 'what problems are most important in this area' must > be answered, at least briefly. I was surprised Ertl is a PhD. I want to > see how he names any Professor in his university a frustrated troll when > asked similar questions :) The problem is that the answers depend on each specific project. Each of the projects described in the link I posted above has its own set of answers, which are the responsibility of the project manager involved. > Finally, I can't agrees thigs are going well now. I can't dictate a > time when to start makes it better, it is a choice of any interested > person. However, strong efforts in right direction makes people happy > when they becomes successful. This is better when criyng and waitin > for hundreds of new users. By all means, take it on as a project. We look forward to seeing your results. Cheers, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth R. Conklin FORTH, Inc. 6080 Center Drive, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90045 USA
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-09 15:58 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <6407572c-2a0e-4747-b151-07077b5a0ee8@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53888 |
> > 1. Elizabeth Rather states Forth Inc has 2 programmers for full time. > > I'm not sure she was serious, since this is pity. > > I waffled because I have been retired for 10 years and am not sure how > many staff Leon Wagner, who has been President of FORTH, Inc. since I > left, has. I suspect the number varies depending upon what projects are > current at any one time, and also includes contractors. So it is a group of peoples working together when they have a customer? For being a worldwide industry leader (even for small community), this looks insufficient, isn't it? > > 2. I cannot get an answer what bright project was completed by any of > > 'experts' last time. I mean a value of total income, quantity of copies > > sold etc. I understand a programmer stubborn enough may use Forth just > > to approve he is smart Forth programmer, but what about new users? > > Featured Forth applications: https://www.forth.com/resources/forth-apps/ Yes, this looks nice. Again, I suppose they have a customer for each project, and Forth is used 'because they can' rather 'because it is the best solution, measured independently'. What exactly uniqie Forth feature was used as a winning technology? > > 3. Several years ago Forth was at ~35 line in TIOBE rating. Currently > > it is not listed in top50. Show me another rating, if you think it is > > more representative. > > I have no idea how those ratings are developed or what they are based > on, since in my experience companies rarely advertise what language was > used in their projects. I'm too. This is why I suggest to show another rating, if it is applicable. This is not an absolute argument, just a marker, so 'five more point' means nothing, but when most ratings goes down, this is a reason to think deeply. > > 4. Anyone who involved in scientific activity should be able to discuss > > strategic matters, which are common for most areas of science, including > > computer science. Simple questions, such as 'what is your goal', 'what > > list of tasks you want to solve', 'what kind of features/disadvantages > > you can describe', 'what problems are most important in this area' must > > be answered, at least briefly. I was surprised Ertl is a PhD. I want to > > see how he names any Professor in his university a frustrated troll when > > asked similar questions :) > > The problem is that the answers depend on each specific project. Each of > the projects described in the link I posted above has its own set of > answers, which are the responsibility of the project manager involved. Forth itself is a project too, at the each stage of evolution. If somebody plan to lead programmers, he certainly need to know, where he want to be. This is not my wish to create a Standard (I think now is a time to observe and collect requirements and success stories, if any), but when I ask, where are goals/tasks/tradeoffs, this leads to a kind of local disaster here :) > By all means, take it on as a project. We look forward to seeing your > results. I have my own, of course. I don't see, how anybody can 'jump in my running train', since I have a different priorities and experience. Do you think I'm alone can boost ANS committee despite on their protests? :)
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-09 17:39 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <87h957zoad.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #53909 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> writes: > Yes, this looks nice. Again, I suppose they have a customer for each > project, and Forth is used 'because they can' rather 'because it is > the best solution, measured independently'. What exactly uniqie Forth > feature was used as a winning technology? I expect they use Forth because they like it and are used to it. There's also a saying that "Forth is an amplifier", but even if the reality is that "Forth is a high-pass filter", you have to be pretty good to get anything done in Forth at all. So a group of Forth programmers is likely to simply be more skilful than a group of C programmers, and therefore more able to get projects done, independently of (or in spite of) the language that they use.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-09 18:53 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <GL2dnYAhVb8m9enFnZ2dnUU7-W_NnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #53909 |
On 1/9/17 1:58 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> 1. Elizabeth Rather states Forth Inc has 2 programmers for full time. >>> I'm not sure she was serious, since this is pity. >> >> I waffled because I have been retired for 10 years and am not sure how >> many staff Leon Wagner, who has been President of FORTH, Inc. since I >> left, has. I suspect the number varies depending upon what projects are >> current at any one time, and also includes contractors. > > So it is a group of peoples working together when they have a customer? > For being a worldwide industry leader (even for small community), this > looks insufficient, isn't it? We have a core staff and add contractors when necessary. It has worked well for us. >>> 2. I cannot get an answer what bright project was completed by any of >>> 'experts' last time. I mean a value of total income, quantity of copies >>> sold etc. I understand a programmer stubborn enough may use Forth just >>> to approve he is smart Forth programmer, but what about new users? >> >> Featured Forth applications: https://www.forth.com/resources/forth-apps/ > > Yes, this looks nice. Again, I suppose they have a customer for each project, > and Forth is used 'because they can' rather 'because it is the best solution, > measured independently'. What exactly uniqie Forth feature was used as a > winning technology? Yes, companies have had various motivations for using Forth in projects, but the primary one has been that they can get the work done far quicker and less expensively. We typically give quotes (time and cost) about 1/4 that of competing bids. Sometimes management is too unfamiliar with Forth to believe we can deliver as promised, but some (such as NASA) have worked with us for many years and know what we can do. We usually involve programmers in the customer company in the project, so they can maintain the system ongoing. Sometimes these programmers migrate to other projects and bring Forth with them, based on their experience with its power. >>> 3. Several years ago Forth was at ~35 line in TIOBE rating. Currently >>> it is not listed in top50. Show me another rating, if you think it is >>> more representative. >> >> I have no idea how those ratings are developed or what they are based >> on, since in my experience companies rarely advertise what language was >> used in their projects. > > I'm too. This is why I suggest to show another rating, if it is applicable. > This is not an absolute argument, just a marker, so 'five more point' > means nothing, but when most ratings goes down, this is a reason to think deeply. I don't actually know of any external ratings that are believable. >>> 4. Anyone who involved in scientific activity should be able to discuss >>> strategic matters, which are common for most areas of science, including >>> computer science. Simple questions, such as 'what is your goal', 'what >>> list of tasks you want to solve', 'what kind of features/disadvantages >>> you can describe', 'what problems are most important in this area' must >>> be answered, at least briefly. I was surprised Ertl is a PhD. I want to >>> see how he names any Professor in his university a frustrated troll when >>> asked similar questions :) >> >> The problem is that the answers depend on each specific project. Each of >> the projects described in the link I posted above has its own set of >> answers, which are the responsibility of the project manager involved. > > Forth itself is a project too, at the each stage of evolution. If somebody > plan to lead programmers, he certainly need to know, where he want to be. > This is not my wish to create a Standard (I think now is a time to observe > and collect requirements and success stories, if any), but when I ask, > where are goals/tasks/tradeoffs, this leads to a kind of local disaster > here :) Each project has its own goals and tradeoffs, including the Standards body, whose goals and standards are articulated in the standards. Forth94 and Forth2012, describe it this way: "The purpose of this Standard is to promote the portability of Forth programs for use on a wide variety of computing systems, to facilitate the communication of programs, programming techniques, and ideas among Forth programmers, and to serve as a basis for the future evolution of the Forth language." >> By all means, take it on as a project. We look forward to seeing your >> results. > > I have my own, of course. I don't see, how anybody can 'jump in my > running train', since I have a different priorities and experience. > Do you think I'm alone can boost ANS committee despite on their protests? :) If you have different priorities and interests, which is perfectly reasonable, then it is not helpful to sit on the side and complain. People who complain should be prepared to help. Cheers, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth R. Conklin FORTH, Inc. 6080 Center Drive, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90045 USA
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-12 06:27 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <e5fc479f-e2e4-4fda-9d0a-a3b7c7a75400@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53916 |
> > So it is a group of peoples working together when they have a customer? > > For being a worldwide industry leader (even for small community), this > > looks insufficient, isn't it? > > We have a core staff and add contractors when necessary. It has worked > well for us. I'm very glad to see this. Any successe supports the idea Forth is effective language. Another question - if Forth Inc. can use Forth, which part of their methodology is universal? I'm afraid it is based mainly on the fact they already have forthers. If you want to write a standard to involve more programmers, it needs to be focused on the new users, maybe with strong programming experience, not on complete newbies who are ready to accept any rules. > Yes, companies have had various motivations for using Forth in projects, > but the primary one has been that they can get the work done far quicker > and less expensively. We typically give quotes (time and cost) about 1/4 > that of competing bids. Sometimes management is too unfamiliar with I can see this in our projects too. However, you need to highlight features, leading to this effect, not just list current set of words. > > This is not an absolute argument, just a marker, so 'five more point' > > means nothing, but when most ratings goes down, this is a reason to think deeply. > > I don't actually know of any external ratings that are believable. So most forthers who claims themselves as a researchers are in danger. It is easy to think they are experts without any counterarguments (or with agressive discarding any critics). There is no way to find an absolute proven solution, but auxiliary markers may be applied. Number of publications, their impact factor, total grants income, conference statistics are markers of this kind. Of course, if no innatural actions are made for demonstrating better results. Also, if research activity is based on the Forth, overall process becomes too close and self-driving, up to the kind of technical cult. > Each project has its own goals and tradeoffs, including the Standards > body, whose goals and standards are articulated in the standards. > Forth94 and Forth2012, describe it this way: "The purpose of this > Standard is to promote the portability of Forth programs for use on a > wide variety of computing systems, to facilitate the communication of > programs, programming techniques, and ideas among Forth programmers, and > to serve as a basis for the future evolution of the Forth language." Looks too neutral. How we can test any action to conforming these statements? By voting in workgroup? This means programmer must propose new feature and wait for the next committee meeting, maybe with personal relations involved. This is boring. It is easier to write a completely new Forth system than wait for proposal acceptance. Also, without actual overview, no adequate decision can be made. in fact, any committee must not _decide_, but only _fix_ situation, revealing by proposals (in ideal case). Committee members not rule, but only describe and summarize. So, if the world will go, for example, to 256-bit CPUs, committee must fix this and propose a way to support 256-bit systems, not meets to decide, it is conforming to Forth phylosophy or not. If you think I'm wrong, just show me a statistics by Forth systems, programmers, project, articles, income etc. Is there any major growing point, indicating committee activity results? Again, I don't mean internal mutual approvements, just worldwide results, showing many independent programmers are agreed and ready to use Standard. > If you have different priorities and interests, which is perfectly > reasonable, then it is not helpful to sit on the side and complain. > People who complain should be prepared to help. I'm ready, why not? But what is your expectations - should I write a letter with 2-3 new words, which I want to see? This is not a most critical point to fix.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-12 13:44 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <tqSdnbDn4-FcieXFnZ2dnUU7-LfNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #53955 |
On 1/12/17 4:27 AM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> So it is a group of peoples working together when they have a customer? >>> For being a worldwide industry leader (even for small community), this >>> looks insufficient, isn't it? >> >> We have a core staff and add contractors when necessary. It has worked >> well for us. > > I'm very glad to see this. Any successe supports the idea Forth is effective > language. Another question - if Forth Inc. can use Forth, which part of > their methodology is universal? I'm afraid it is based mainly on the fact > they already have forthers. If you want to write a standard to involve more > programmers, it needs to be focused on the new users, maybe with strong > programming experience, not on complete newbies who are ready to accept > any rules. > >> Yes, companies have had various motivations for using Forth in projects, >> but the primary one has been that they can get the work done far quicker >> and less expensively. We typically give quotes (time and cost) about 1/4 >> that of competing bids. Sometimes management is too unfamiliar with > > I can see this in our projects too. However, you need to highlight features, > leading to this effect, not just list current set of words. That is marketing, which is not the mission of a standard. A standard is neither promotion nor tutorial for novices. Language standards are intended as rules for achieving portability and a common understanding of the technology being standardized. >>> This is not an absolute argument, just a marker, so 'five more point' >>> means nothing, but when most ratings goes down, this is a reason to think deeply. >> >> I don't actually know of any external ratings that are believable. > > So most forthers who claims themselves as a researchers are in danger. > It is easy to think they are experts without any counterarguments (or > with agressive discarding any critics). There is no way to find an > absolute proven solution, but auxiliary markers may be applied. Number > of publications, their impact factor, total grants income, conference > statistics are markers of this kind. Of course, if no innatural actions > are made for demonstrating better results. I don't see the logic here. Various organizations (magazines, industry groups, etc.) attempt to estimate language usage based on things like publications, but they attempt to be neutral. I don't see this has a bearing on whether Forth users are researchers or "in danger". > Also, if research activity is based on the Forth, overall process becomes > too close and self-driving, up to the kind of technical cult. Sorry, I don't understand this sentence at all. >> Each project has its own goals and tradeoffs, including the Standards >> body, whose goals and standards are articulated in the standards. >> Forth94 and Forth2012, describe it this way: "The purpose of this >> Standard is to promote the portability of Forth programs for use on a >> wide variety of computing systems, to facilitate the communication of >> programs, programming techniques, and ideas among Forth programmers, and >> to serve as a basis for the future evolution of the Forth language." > > Looks too neutral. How we can test any action to conforming these statements? > By voting in workgroup? This means programmer must propose new feature and > wait for the next committee meeting, maybe with personal relations involved. > This is boring. It is easier to write a completely new Forth system than wait > for proposal acceptance. It is certainly possible to assess whether Forth programs are more portable today than in 1993. > Also, without actual overview, no adequate decision can be made. in fact, > any committee must not _decide_, but only _fix_ situation, revealing by > proposals (in ideal case). Committee members not rule, but only describe > and summarize. So, if the world will go, for example, to 256-bit CPUs, > committee must fix this and propose a way to support 256-bit systems, > not meets to decide, it is conforming to Forth phylosophy or not. If you > think I'm wrong, just show me a statistics by Forth systems, programmers > project, articles, income etc. Is there any major growing point, indicating > committee activity results? Again, I don't mean internal mutual approvements, > just worldwide results, showing many independent programmers are agreed > and ready to use Standard. The process of developing the next incarnation of a standard is deliberately slow; ANSI, for example, expects each release to last for about 5 years. During this time, proposed changes can be actually implemented by team members or the public and generate feedback, which can be evaluated by the committee. The practice is to release draft standards for a public review period of several months, to allow as much review and consideration as possible. >> If you have different priorities and interests, which is perfectly >> reasonable, then it is not helpful to sit on the side and complain. >> People who complain should be prepared to help. > > I'm ready, why not? But what is your expectations - should I write > a letter with 2-3 new words, which I want to see? This is not a most > critical point to fix. The most effective proposal is focused on a single issue or word. If you have multiple issues, you should write one proposal for each. Read some existing proposals to get a feel for the style. Cheers, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth R. Conklin FORTH, Inc. 6080 Center Drive, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90045 USA
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-12 17:36 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <06a74b79-a7af-46cd-9167-983d3dd6304f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53962 |
> > I can see this in our projects too. However, you need to highlight features, > > leading to this effect, not just list current set of words. > > That is marketing, which is not the mission of a standard. A standard is > neither promotion nor tutorial for novices. Language standards are > intended as rules for achieving portability and a common understanding > of the technology being standardized. For common understanding, you should highlight effects, not just write a set of rules. Your statement may be 100% correct, but I can see results. And it is not 100% correct, because standard is a tool and it is not alone. There is an ecosystem of Forth, including forthers, products, companies, books, success stories etc. If there is a lack of common understanding, standard should be corrected according to overall goals. Now it looks like an instruction how to breath at 10-th kilometer of run, targeting fat lazy fastfood eaters. Maybe it's good, but they can't run even 1 km, don't want to run at all, and you can't test your advices :) > I don't see the logic here. Various organizations (magazines, industry > groups, etc.) attempt to estimate language usage based on things like > publications, but they attempt to be neutral. I don't see this has a > bearing on whether Forth users are researchers or "in danger". Unfortunately, this is a common 'hideout' to think 'I'm forther and it is rare and elite skill, so nobody can understand me'. After this, most quaestions or critics will be discarded with explanation 'you are just a Forth-hater!'. How do you plan to separate haters from constructive critics without a comprehensive knowledge base? With expert evaluations only? Experts, which are involved in Forth and tends to replace real skills to so-called authority in the limited group? This is a direct way to degrade, because 'authority' will be self-replenished and any shadow of doubt will be agressively eliminated. > It is certainly possible to assess whether Forth programs are more > portable today than in 1993. Forth was far more actual in 1993! Who cares about portability, if most programmers don't hear about Forth and the rest thinks it is a geek's toy? Ok, you can lock the door from them, but how this fix situation? > The process of developing the next incarnation of a standard is > deliberately slow; ANSI, for example, expects each release to last for > about 5 years. During this time, proposed changes can be actually > implemented by team members or the public and generate feedback, which > can be evaluated by the committee. The practice is to release draft > standards for a public review period of several months, to allow as much > review and consideration as possible. Several companies can cooperate without ANS, and with no goal to involve other programmers this is just an attempt to play the same game like big companies. > > I'm ready, why not? But what is your expectations - should I write > > a letter with 2-3 new words, which I want to see? This is not a most > > critical point to fix. > > The most effective proposal is focused on a single issue or word. If you > have multiple issues, you should write one proposal for each. Read some > existing proposals to get a feel for the style. I can predict the result :) Any proposal will be discarded to show me there is my place in the Forth hierarchy. I met the same situations several times. Unfortunately, these companies cancel their Forth activity (one is a bankrupt). I seriously suspect this happens because of their ambitions to be 'true forthers' and dictating to their non-Forth customers what to do with their brilliant toy. An attempt to dictate to other forthers was a kind of 'last song' from their side. I'm afraid, ANS committee is going to something like this, if no strategic review will be taken.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-13 03:17 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <7Lednf9bvojcBuXFnZ2dnUU7-anNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #53963 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> The most effective proposal is focused on a single issue or word. If you >> have multiple issues, you should write one proposal for each. Read some >> existing proposals to get a feel for the style. > > I can predict the result :) Any proposal will be discarded to show > me there is my place in the Forth hierarchy. I met the same > situations several times. Most proposals for standardization fail, and that is exactly as it should be: there is a very high bar for inclusion. Words have to prove that they are worthwhile, and standardization is not an appropriate way to fast-track designs into wider acceptance. People still try, though. Here's the right way to do it: first persuade people to use your design, and only then think about standardization. With a decently long time interval to allow any disadvantages to be revealed. But of course we'll never get to find out what any of your ideas are, so all of this is moot anyway. Andrew.
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| From | Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-13 14:44 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <o5ap24$nfe$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #53967 |
On 1/13/2017 09:17, Andrew Haley wrote: > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> The most effective proposal is focused on a single issue or word. If you >>> have multiple issues, you should write one proposal for each. Read some >>> existing proposals to get a feel for the style. >> >> I can predict the result :) Any proposal will be discarded to show >> me there is my place in the Forth hierarchy. I met the same >> situations several times. > > Most proposals for standardization fail, and that is exactly as it > should be: there is a very high bar for inclusion. Words have to > prove that they are worthwhile, and standardization is not an > appropriate way to fast-track designs into wider acceptance. People > still try, though. > > Here's the right way to do it: first persuade people to use your > design, and only then think about standardization. With a decently > long time interval to allow any disadvantages to be revealed. > > But of course we'll never get to find out what any of your ideas are, > so all of this is moot anyway. > > Andrew. > Look how long it as taken to *not* standardise quotations. They are a simple concept, and there are more than a few Forths that provide & use them, but it's still being discussed. Perhaps I was lucky with TRAVERSE-WORDLIST, but even that took a lot of time & many revisions. IETF RFC 7530 took from the year 1995 (RFC 1813 on NFSv3) to 2015 to document & ratify NFSv4 as a standard. Two decades. Would Ilya have the patience? I doubt it. -- Alex
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-13 14:43 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <85374c75-a092-4b76-8de2-6de7f9d1e870@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #53971 |
On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 7:44:53 AM UTC-7, Alex wrote:
> On 1/13/2017 09:17, Andrew Haley wrote:
> > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The most effective proposal is focused on a single issue or word. If you
> >>> have multiple issues, you should write one proposal for each. Read some
> >>> existing proposals to get a feel for the style.
This is the incremental approach --- it is predicated on the idea that Elizabeth Rather's toy language is a meaningful standard --- Andrew Haley (employee of Elizabeth Rather) wants to propose adding little tiny improvements.
This is destined to fail because it is not addressing the major flaws in ANS-Forth, including a massive infection of ambiguity.
> >> I can predict the result :) Any proposal will be discarded to show
> >> me there is my place in the Forth hierarchy. I met the same
> >> situations several times.
Ilya is right. It is a waste of time to be involved with Forth-200x because Forth-200x is mandated (by Elizabeth Rather, who appointed all of the Forth-200x committee members) to be 100% compatible with ANS-Forth.
> > Most proposals for standardization fail, and that is exactly as it
> > should be: there is a very high bar for inclusion. Words have to
> > prove that they are worthwhile, and standardization is not an
> > appropriate way to fast-track designs into wider acceptance. People
> > still try, though.
> >
> > Here's the right way to do it: first persuade people to use your
> > design, and only then think about standardization. With a decently
> > long time interval to allow any disadvantages to be revealed.
Andrew Haley is telling everybody that they have to brown-nose Elizabeth Rather for years (as he has done) before the Forth-200x committee members (including himself) will listen to any opinion that they may have.
The bar for getting proposals accepted isn't very high though. These are Leon Wagner's criteria for accepting a proposal:
1.) It must take less than 10 minutes of his time to implement the code.
2.) It must be simple enough to be documented in one short paragraph such that anybody with one week of Forth experience can understand it in less than 10 minutes.
3.) It must not affect any SwiftForth code that has been written.
4.) It must not affect any SwiftForth code that may be written in the future using the typical Forth Inc. style.
Basically, if your proposal is crap, then it can be added to the ever-growing pile which is Forth-200x --- but if you have anything to say that isn't just brown-nosing, then the Forth-200x committee will ignore you.
> Look how long it as taken to *not* standardise quotations. They are a
> simple concept, and there are more than a few Forths that provide & use
> them, but it's still being discussed.
I take credit for killing the quotations proposal. :-D The entire proposal was predicated on the idea that it is impossible to support quotations that have access to the parent function's local variables. I refer to the Forth-200x committee as the "Committee of Can't" because they are focused on telling Forthers what they can't do, and claiming that doing things in a way that is useful is "impossible."
I wrote code to support quotations that have access to the parent function's local variables. This isn't ANS-Forth, but I have versions for both VFX and SwiftForth, and I expect that my technique can easily be implemented under any Forth system.
This is my code that does the impossible:
\ in the stack-picture comments, R is a continuation (a vector to a quotation)
VFX? SwiftForth? or [if]
\ My code ( VFX or SwiftForth only) requires that the HOF does have local variables.
: rexit ( -- ) rdrop ;
: (r:) ( -- r ) r@ 5 + ; \ 5 is the size of a JMP instruction in 32-bit x86
: r[ ( -- r ) postpone (r:) postpone ahead ; immediate
: ]r ( -- ) postpone rexit postpone then ; immediate
VFX? [if]
code rex ( r -- ) \ HumptyDumpty called this RCALL
push edi \ this is the HOF's LF which won't be used by the quotation
mov edi, 0 [edi] \ this is the parent's LF which will be used by the quotation
mov eax, ebx
mov ebx, 0 [ebp] lea ebp, w [ebp]
call eax
pop edi \ restore HOF's LF
next, end-code
[then]
SwiftForth? [if]
156 constant lf-offset \ this is the offset for the local-frame in the user-variables (ESI is the user-variable base)
code rex ( r -- ) \ HumptyDumpty called this RCALL
lf-offset [esi] edx mov
edx push \ this is the HOF's LF which won't be used by the quotation
-4 [edx] eax mov \ this is the old ESP
0 [eax] eax mov \ this is the parent's LF which will be used by the quotation
eax lf-offset [esi] mov
ebx eax mov [drop]
eax call
lf-offset [esi] pop \ restore HOF's LF
ret end-code
[then]
[else] \ this was written by HumptyDumpty and works on gForth, SwiftForth and VFX
: rexit ( -- ) RDROP ;
: (r:) ( -- r ) R@ 0 ;
: r[ ( -- r ) postpone (r:) postpone IF ; immediate
: ]r ( -- ) postpone REXIT postpone THEN ; immediate
: rex ( r -- ) >R -1 ; \ HumptyDumpty called this RCALL
\ HumptyDumpty's code requires that the HOF does not have local variables.
[then]
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| From | Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-14 00:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <o5bquu$p9r$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #53980 |
On 1/13/2017 22:43, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
[Sub-Trump guff snipped]
>> Look how long it as taken to *not* standardise quotations. They are
>> a simple concept, and there are more than a few Forths that provide
>> & use them, but it's still being discussed.
>
> I take credit for killing the quotations proposal. :-D The entire
> proposal was predicated on the idea that it is impossible to support
> quotations that have access to the parent function's local variables.
No, it's not predicated on it being impossible.
It's a simple proposal and it's easy to implement. It has many use cases.
Supporting outer locals adds complexity to the compiler for no benefit;
and it introduces a dependency on the optional locals wordset. This
could be overcome by splitting the proposal, much in the way FIND has
two definitions in the standard, but you haven't proposed that.
Quotations without outer local support has some limited practise; but
yours has none since no-one's Forth cares to support it.
> I wrote code to support quotations that have access to the parent
> function's local variables. This isn't ANS-Forth, but I have versions
> for both VFX and SwiftForth, and I expect that my technique can
> easily be implemented under any Forth system.
>
> This is my code that does the impossible:
Of course it's not impossible. But I haven't seen you provide a
convincing use case for it.
http://www.forth200x.org/quotations.txt
<quote>
Locals
A quotation may not be able to access the locals of the outer word
because it has no knowledge of when it might be executed and hence
whether outer locals are still alive. It does permit defining and
accessing its own locals. Note that this means that both the
quotation and the containing definition may define locals.
: foo ... [: {: a b :} a b + ;] ... ; \ unambiguous
: bar {: a b :} ... [: a b + ;] ... ; \ ambiguous
: bla {: a ;} ... [: {: b ;} ... b ... ;] ... a ... ; \ unambiguous
The present proposal does not propose that a quotation can access the
locals of a containing definition, because the implementation would be
relatively complex, impose a run-time overhead, and the lifetime of
the locals would be restricted (unless we are willing to accept
further complexity). While there are a number of people who are very
keen to have such a feature, it is not clear how much it would be
used. System implementors are encouraged to provide support for
accessing outer locals on an experimental basis so that programmers
can explore the usefulness of this feature, possibly resulting in a
proposal for this feature in the future.
--
Alex
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-14 11:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2017Jan14.125218@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #53985 |
Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> writes:
>Supporting outer locals adds complexity to the compiler for no benefit;
There is a benefit: You can use certain idioms, and if you put no
restrictions on the lifetime of the locals, you can use the idioms
that you see in books on functional programming. Without that feature
you have to do it in some other way. The question is if Forth system
implementors consider that benefit enough to accept the implementation
cost.
Given that some don't even accept the rather low implementation cost
of quotations without outer locals, I doubt that they consider the
benefit of outer locals sufficient for standardization in the medium
term.
If anybody asks what the benefit of quotations without outer locals
is: One is that, in many cases of return address manipulation (leading
to complaints about "optimizations" like inlining or tail-call
optimization), one can point the programmers to quotations as an
alternative.
>and it introduces a dependency on the optional locals wordset.
Not in the standard text (unless you phrase it in that way). Of
course, if you use quotations with outer locals in a program, you
would have a dependency on both quotations and locals (and on the
outer-locals feature if that is a separate feature) in your program.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/
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| From | Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-14 16:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <o5dhsi$718$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #53998 |
On 1/14/2017 11:52, Anton Ertl wrote: > Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> writes: >> Supporting outer locals adds complexity to the compiler for no >> benefit; > > There is a benefit: You can use certain idioms, and if you put no > restrictions on the lifetime of the locals, you can use the idioms > that you see in books on functional programming. Without that > feature you have to do it in some other way. The question is if > Forth system implementors consider that benefit enough to accept the > implementation cost. > > Given that some don't even accept the rather low implementation cost > of quotations without outer locals, I doubt that they consider the > benefit of outer locals sufficient for standardization in the medium > term. > Global locals lifetime is not Hugh's proposal (and in that case I would rather see it described as a closure, not a quotation). The benefit of supporting outer locals with a lifetime that's limited to the execution lifetime of the containing word is small to none. -- Alex
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