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Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors

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  Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors General Van Ryberg <vvdleun@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-16 12:15 -0700
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-09-16 20:39 +0100
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors voidvolker@gmail.com - 2013-09-16 12:50 -0700
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-16 11:02 -1000
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-17 00:50 +0200
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-16 20:35 -0700
      Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-17 00:39 -0400
        Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors josv@planet.nl - 2013-09-27 09:34 -0700
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-17 10:57 +0000
      Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-17 17:49 +0200
        Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-17 17:05 +0000
          Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-17 22:17 +0200
            Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-18 10:38 +0000
          Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 00:15 +0100
            Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-18 09:37 +0200
              Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-18 08:46 +0000
              Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 17:44 +0100
                Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-18 23:36 +0200
                  Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 11:53 +0100
            Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-18 08:54 +0000
              Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 13:19 +0100
              Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 11:41 +0100
                Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors no.top.post@gmail.com - 2013-10-02 00:56 +0000
            Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-18 10:40 +0000
              Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 17:36 +0100
      Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 21:50 -0700
        Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-18 08:39 +0000
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-09-18 10:39 -0700
      Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-09-18 10:43 -0700
    Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors General Van Ryberg <vvdleun@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-21 00:32 -0700

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#25759

> I tried Eclipse when wanting to demonstrate an IDE when teaching a
> Java course last semester.  After spending a quarter-hour without
> getting anywhere, I gave up and demonstrated an IDE with Java Beans.
> 
> Anyway, the Emacs Forth mode by Goran Rydquist (on which gforth.el is
> based) has such a feature, and it works (or worked) without taking the
> hands off the keyboard, but I found having a shell in a separate
> window preferable (even though it means that I have to grab the mouse
> to switch windows).
> 
> - anton

Having a Touch Screen on my normal machine means I don't need to use the 
mouse to switch windows. I can just point at the one I want in focus.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#25807

On 18/09/2013 09:54, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
>> On 17/09/2013 18:05, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>> Ctrl-D Cursor-up Enter
>>>
>>
>> How laborious, using Eclipse a double mouse click suffices to run
>> whichever Forth is being used, compiling source code file(s) and running
>> associated test file(s).
>
> I tried Eclipse when wanting to demonstrate an IDE when teaching a
> Java course last semester.  After spending a quarter-hour without
> getting anywhere, I gave up and demonstrated an IDE with Java Beans.
>

It takes a bit of time to learn to use a complex IDE like Eclipse and 
discarding it after 15 minutes is a bit hasty IMHO. I've used it for a 
few years now and can't remember how much time it took to get started. I 
think I started quite simply and without much difficulty, using it to 
edit and manage forth source files for different projects and gradually 
learned how to use other features as and when needed. When you mention 
"an IDE with Java Beans" do you mean Netbeans? Anyway as I've never used 
that I've no idea how it compares with Eclipse.

-- 
Gerry

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#26089

In article <l1ekd9$3tp$1@dont-email.me>, Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> wrote: 

> On 18/09/2013 09:54, Anton Ertl wrote:
> > Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
> >> On 17/09/2013 18:05, Anton Ertl wrote:
> >>> Ctrl-D Cursor-up Enter
> >>>
> >>
> >> How laborious, using Eclipse a double mouse click suffices to run
> >> whichever Forth is being used, compiling source code file(s) and running
> >> associated test file(s).
> >
> > I tried Eclipse when wanting to demonstrate an IDE when teaching a
> > Java course last semester.  After spending a quarter-hour without
> > getting anywhere, I gave up and demonstrated an IDE with Java Beans.
> >
> 
> It takes a bit of time to learn to use a complex IDE like Eclipse and 
> discarding it after 15 minutes is a bit hasty IMHO. I've used it for a 
> few years now and can't remember how much time it took to get started. I 
> think I started quite simply and without much difficulty, using it to 
> edit and manage forth source files for different projects and gradually 
> learned how to use other features as and when needed. When you mention 
> "an IDE with Java Beans" do you mean Netbeans? Anyway as I've never used 
> that I've no idea how it compares with Eclipse.
> 
This thread vividly demonstartes that computing is no longer about
computing: bits, bytes, registers..technology.
It's about woman/kiddies' stuff: psychology..fashion, habit..

How could I Possibly prefer :
 * to move my heavy arm around to touch a screen
 rather than just gaze at the screen and automagically
 ALLOW my wrist move the cursor [effortlessly from border
 to border] and have chording facilities at the same time;
 * to type-in REMBERED strings, when I can just RECOGNISE them
   and, by a single klik, select those required. The whole touch-typing
   myth, is invalidated by the need for heavily used extra-keys 
   <Fn..Ctl, Alt..> ?

How does your editor :
 move 
   the text in the sentence starting with the 2nd occurance
   of "happy" up to the end of the 4th occurance of "happy",
 over to: 
   immediately after 2nd sentence containing "immediately".
 See solution below.

 But of course those who DO prefer the methods that I hate,
 have got their valid reasons.  I hate having to look up & down
 between keybrd & screen. 
 
 We techies won't discuss/analyse psychological factors: 
  maximum of 3 items to remember,
  the value of confirming feed-back, ...etc.
We just write "I do / like /feel / prefer..." without trying
to analyse the reasons.

As an example of analysis that needs to be STATED:
 a major attraction/advantage of forth is that the 
 programmer can use the evolutionary method,
 instead of the punishing-method of go-back-to-zero,
 several times.
 
Evolution: proceeding from where you ARE, is a lazy,
undisciplined method; but requires continual confirmation
of 'where you are', ie. feedback.
Visual feedback, is what effective IDEs give you.

*nix's `mc`: the descendant/clone of the '70's M$
Norton Commander is an example of a classical design.
Since I use it all the time, I had to think deeply why many
people hate it. Perhaps they have learned-sequences-of
steps to various targets, which they just want to spill-out
as a single-chunk, without being diverted during the
single-chunk delivery.

I suspect that Eclipse would be a good investment of
effort for many users, because I've come to admit that
Debian's <ExpertSystem inspire> `aptitude` is an attempt
to handle the 'matching' of their mass of programs.
But, so far I hate aptitude. 

The opposite approach to having a magic all-purpose tool,
like `mc`, is the *nix tool-box method, where the Forth-like
piping of processes through N stages allows you to economically
evolve programs, where importantly: if the product is OK at
stage 5, you never need to go back, before stage-5, and lose
all your effort.

By far, my favourite heavy-artillery [for complex tasks] is [the
amazingly light-weight] ETHOberon - I use the *nix based version.

Plan9, which AFAIK was designed by the boys who did the original
unix, copied ETHO with `acme`. I've got the pubic domain `wily`
which tries to match ETHO's:
* multiple text frames per screen, in [possibly]2 colums: 66% + 33%
* Text ANYwhere is LIVE. Eg. <kluxing> a word can do various
actions; where the <kluxing vocabulary> consists of the possible
chords of the 3-button mouse.

So eg. if I see 'ET.Do' ANYwhere;
*klux1 with the cursor on 'ET.Do' could: Open the file:ET.Do
in a heuristically determined place [or where I <F1>-ed]
*klux2 with the cursor on 'ET.Do' could: Run the executable
  `ET.Do`
*klux3,4...etc.

ETHO is much more visual that eg. emacs.

I'm looking at ETHO now. 

As an example, I'll paste my "C.Tool"'s  header/menu:-
C.Tool | System.Close .Copy .Grow Edit.Search .Store

This multiColored/Fonted TextFrame shows the contents of file:
C.Tool, and the 5 labeled actions: Close...Store are marked
ON-THE-BOTTLE [so that you don't need to search for them].

And BTW if you want to `Search` in 'C.Tool' for a text-string that
you see ANYWHERE, you just 'wipe' the text-string and 
klux "C.Tool"'s  'Edit.Search'.

For the most complex problems, spread over many files, dirs,
partitions: email, News, mans, test logs ..., the ability to
easily color/font wipe your text, gives an extra dimension.
So. eg. the A,B,..E aspects of the project can be marked with
matching colours.
--------
Editing task described above:
Get/see source string [possibly extending over multiple screens,
which should the be bracketed by: opening 'frame' above a
'closing' frame].
* Select [via appropriate klux] "happy" from anywhere that
  it's seen.
* appropriate klux `Search` on the particular textFrame to find
   the 1st occurance of the selected "happy"
* appropriate klux `Search` to find next ie. 2nd occurance.
* Visually scan back to senctence beginning.
* appropriate klux `Copy` to contain 4th occurance of "happy"
    AFTER above search.
* use similar `Search` method to find end of the source-string.
---
* appropriate klux `Copy` to contain the end of the 2nd sentence
   containing "immediately". [TextFrames can be appropriately
   conveniently repositioned at any time.]
* use similar method to find end of the target-string.
---
* appropriate klux to mark the beginning 7nd end of the 
source-string.
* appropriate klux to move the selected source-string
to the selected target position.

It's all done visually, with feedback.
Because we have biologically evolved to operate via
visual feedback.

So yes, an effective IDE makes a MASSIVE difference.
I always say "other systems, compared with ETHO  
feel, like tying my shoe-laces wearing boxing gloves."

BTW Oberon is the descendant of Prof. Wirth's
Pascal, Modula.

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#25757

In article <l1anql$je0$1@dont-email.me>,
Gerry Jackson  <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>On 17/09/2013 18:05, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> writes:
>>> Especially since I
>>> discovered that quitting and rebooting (6 key presses) these type of
>>> Forths is faster than an eyeblink.
>>
>> So many?  For me it's 4 key presses:
>>
>> Ctrl-D Cursor-up Enter
>>
>
>How laborious, using Eclipse a double mouse click suffices to run
>whichever Forth is being used, compiling source code file(s) and running
>associated test file(s).

With the mouse? I bet I type
   make test
faster, without spending days in an incomprehensible setup.

>
>--
>Gerry
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#25769

On 18/09/2013 11:40, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article <l1anql$je0$1@dont-email.me>,
> Gerry Jackson  <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17/09/2013 18:05, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>> Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> writes:
>>>> Especially since I
>>>> discovered that quitting and rebooting (6 key presses) these type of
>>>> Forths is faster than an eyeblink.
>>>
>>> So many?  For me it's 4 key presses:
>>>
>>> Ctrl-D Cursor-up Enter
>>>
>>
>> How laborious, using Eclipse a double mouse click suffices to run
>> whichever Forth is being used, compiling source code file(s) and running
>> associated test file(s).
>
> With the mouse? I bet I type
>     make test
> faster, without spending days in an incomprehensible setup.
>
With the Keyboard? I bet I can double click a mouse button faster 
without spending days in an incomprehensible 'make' setup.

Seriously though, the startup files are already written for past 
projects, for a new project it is simple to copy and edit the startup 
files for the new project - just directory and filename changes needed.

-- 
Gerry

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#25742

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 3:57:34 AM UTC-7, Anton Ertl wrote:
> I have an editor window and a shell window.  In the shell window, I
> have my command line for running the Forth system, loading the Forth
> program(s) and possibly test definitions, running a test, and possibly leaving the Forth system, e.g.:
> 
> gforth program.fs test.fs -e "3 4 test bye"
> 
> After a run, I look at the output, edit the program and/or tests
> and/or the command line and run it again.  The fact that the shell has
> a command-line history is very helpful for this.
> 
> If I want to examine the state after the test interactively, I leave
> the BYE away and then do the examining and maybe additional testing
> interactively.

I don't get it --- how do you examine the state after the BYE has been done? How do you look at what TEST left on the stack, or what global variables it set? What if you have more than one version of TEST to try out?

I don't do a BYE and restart the Forth system unless I have some reason to believe that the Forth system has become corrupted (such as by a pointer in my program that got set wrong and caused the Forth system memory to get overwritten).

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#25753

hughaguilar96@yahoo.com writes:
>On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 3:57:34 AM UTC-7, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> If I want to examine the state after the test interactively, I leave
>> the BYE away and then do the examining and maybe additional testing
>> interactively.
>
>I don't get it --- how do you examine the state after the BYE has been done?

Read again.

> How do you look at what TEST left on the stack, or what global variables it set? What if you have more than one version of TEST to try out?

Typically by editing the shell command line.  Alternatively by leaving
the BYE away and doing it interactively.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2013: http://www.euroforth.org/ef13/

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#25773

On Monday, September 16, 2013 10:15:48 PM UTC+3, General Van Ryberg wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I am new here, and quite new to Forth in general. Like some others here, I'm also from The Netherlands (Utrecht). While I work as a Python (and Java, my favorite) developer, for my small personal pet projects I was looking for something "different". Forth got me hooked. Love the "low level" feeling. After careful evaluating of both MPE's Forth and Forth Inc's SwiftForth, I decided to buy the latter and their two books (thanks to co-author mrs. Rather, they were very helpful).
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm working on my first small, but "real" program, I have some difficulty with the integration of Forth and an external editor (currently using Notepad++). 
> 
> 
> 
> I can type definitions in Forth, test them and when I'm happy with them, copy code to clipboard + alt-tab to the editor + find the definitions + select existing code in the editor to overwrite + paste. This has the drawback that i must be quite careful. And if I changed more than 1 word at a time, I must not forget to copy and manually replace them one at a time. This works, but feels a bit clumsy.
> 
> 
> 
> I can also INCLUDE an existing file. Develop/test my words. And finally with LOCATE, EDIT commands try to keep my editor files up to date from time to time. And every now and again use EMPTY and ABORT and then INCLUDE the file to see if I missed anything. And if I did, try to find out what with SwiftForth's History function. This is the approach I try to follow now, but still feel I might be missing something obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> I would have liked if SwiftForth had a built-in editor (a basic one would do IMHO), so it would be a bit easier to have both open in the same program (have the same parent GUI window). Or to least a function to optionally automatically reload an include file if its contents changed (was saved in an external editor).
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering how others are "syncing" their interactively developed definitions with files and vice-versa?
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Vincent

Hi!

I use mostly "ed" line-editor summoned from forth,
as  I don't like to switch windows
and I like to have a continuous view forth<->editor.

So I wrote 2 definitions used like this

initially "q file-name.fs" start "ed" with file-name.fs
    then when closing clear stacks&dictionary
subsequently "qq" do the same.

Here my humble framework for gforth:

:~/work/forth$ cat fram.fs
defined sift    0= [if] include sift.fs         [then]
defined ??      0= [if] include macros.fs       [then]
        CREATE Cmdbuff 1024 ALLOT
: q
        Cmdbuff 1024 blank
        parse-name 2dup
        s\" defined --START [if] --START [then] marker --START clearstacks s\" ed ~\" system s\" ~\" included"
        Cmdbuff 1024 mould$ evaluate
;

: qq
        Cmdbuff 1024 -trailing evaluate
;


where "mould$" is my format string word,
"sift.fs"   provide searching dictionary by substring of word-name,
"macros.fs" provides something "::" ";;" like in Wil Baden "Thisforth".


Have a nice time,
humptydumpty

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#25774

On Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:39:00 PM UTC+3, humptydumpty wrote:
> On Monday, September 16, 2013 10:15:48 PM UTC+3, General Van Ryberg wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I am new here, and quite new to Forth in general. Like some others here, I'm also from The Netherlands (Utrecht). While I work as a Python (and Java, my favorite) developer, for my small personal pet projects I was looking for something "different". Forth got me hooked. Love the "low level" feeling. After careful evaluating of both MPE's Forth and Forth Inc's SwiftForth, I decided to buy the latter and their two books (thanks to co-author mrs. Rather, they were very helpful).
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Now I'm working on my first small, but "real" program, I have some difficulty with the integration of Forth and an external editor (currently using Notepad++). 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I can type definitions in Forth, test them and when I'm happy with them, copy code to clipboard + alt-tab to the editor + find the definitions + select existing code in the editor to overwrite + paste. This has the drawback that i must be quite careful. And if I changed more than 1 word at a time, I must not forget to copy and manually replace them one at a time. This works, but feels a bit clumsy.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I can also INCLUDE an existing file. Develop/test my words. And finally with LOCATE, EDIT commands try to keep my editor files up to date from time to time. And every now and again use EMPTY and ABORT and then INCLUDE the file to see if I missed anything. And if I did, try to find out what with SwiftForth's History function. This is the approach I try to follow now, but still feel I might be missing something obvious.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I would have liked if SwiftForth had a built-in editor (a basic one would do IMHO), so it would be a bit easier to have both open in the same program (have the same parent GUI window). Or to least a function to optionally automatically reload an include file if its contents changed (was saved in an external editor).
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I was wondering how others are "syncing" their interactively developed definitions with files and vice-versa?
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Best regards,
> 
> > 
> 
> > Vincent
> 
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
> 
> 
> I use mostly "ed" line-editor summoned from forth,
> 
> as  I don't like to switch windows
> 
> and I like to have a continuous view forth<->editor.
> 
> 
> 
> So I wrote 2 definitions used like this
> 
> 
> 
> initially "q file-name.fs" start "ed" with file-name.fs
> 
>     then when closing clear stacks&dictionary
> 
> subsequently "qq" do the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Here my humble framework for gforth:
> 
> 
> 
> :~/work/forth$ cat fram.fs
> 
> defined sift    0= [if] include sift.fs         [then]
> 
> defined ??      0= [if] include macros.fs       [then]
> 
>         CREATE Cmdbuff 1024 ALLOT
> 
> : q
> 
>         Cmdbuff 1024 blank
> 
>         parse-name 2dup
> 
>         s\" defined --START [if] --START [then] marker --START clearstacks s\" ed ~\" system s\" ~\" included"
> 
>         Cmdbuff 1024 mould$ evaluate
> 
> ;
> 
> 
> 
> : qq
> 
>         Cmdbuff 1024 -trailing evaluate
> 
> ;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> where "mould$" is my format string word,
> 
> "sift.fs"   provide searching dictionary by substring of word-name,
> 
> "macros.fs" provides something "::" ";;" like in Wil Baden "Thisforth".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice time,
> 
> humptydumpty

Oops! There should be:
initially "q file-name.fs" start "ed" with file-name.fs
     then when closing clear stacks&dictionary and load source-file,
subsequently "qq" do the same.

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#25875

Hi,

Wow... thanks for all the replies! I've read some very good suggestions that I'm gonna try myself.
Nice to see that not all Usenet groups are abandoned (at least the other ones I've tried recently apparently were).

"Real app" was a bit too optimistic, it's just a tiny and very simple game.  Will post the code here. Would love some code review from you all.

I've an idea for a simple interactive app to make managing my (mainly sci-fi B-)movie collection database a bit easier. Right now I add my titles to a spreadsheet, use Unoconv convert to CSV and run a Python script that converts it into a SQLite DB and uploads it to my server. Plan to do this in Forth from now on (including movie entry directly in Fortth), so I don't have to do all the conversions. We'll see. Gotta love stupid personal scripts/projects :-)

Regards,
Vincent

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