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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #26089
| From | no.top.post@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors |
| Date | 2013-10-02 00:56 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <l2fqv1$mph$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | <l1ekd9$3tp$1@dont-email.me> |
In article <l1ekd9$3tp$1@dont-email.me>, Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/09/2013 09:54, Anton Ertl wrote:
> > Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
> >> On 17/09/2013 18:05, Anton Ertl wrote:
> >>> Ctrl-D Cursor-up Enter
> >>>
> >>
> >> How laborious, using Eclipse a double mouse click suffices to run
> >> whichever Forth is being used, compiling source code file(s) and running
> >> associated test file(s).
> >
> > I tried Eclipse when wanting to demonstrate an IDE when teaching a
> > Java course last semester. After spending a quarter-hour without
> > getting anywhere, I gave up and demonstrated an IDE with Java Beans.
> >
>
> It takes a bit of time to learn to use a complex IDE like Eclipse and
> discarding it after 15 minutes is a bit hasty IMHO. I've used it for a
> few years now and can't remember how much time it took to get started. I
> think I started quite simply and without much difficulty, using it to
> edit and manage forth source files for different projects and gradually
> learned how to use other features as and when needed. When you mention
> "an IDE with Java Beans" do you mean Netbeans? Anyway as I've never used
> that I've no idea how it compares with Eclipse.
>
This thread vividly demonstartes that computing is no longer about
computing: bits, bytes, registers..technology.
It's about woman/kiddies' stuff: psychology..fashion, habit..
How could I Possibly prefer :
* to move my heavy arm around to touch a screen
rather than just gaze at the screen and automagically
ALLOW my wrist move the cursor [effortlessly from border
to border] and have chording facilities at the same time;
* to type-in REMBERED strings, when I can just RECOGNISE them
and, by a single klik, select those required. The whole touch-typing
myth, is invalidated by the need for heavily used extra-keys
<Fn..Ctl, Alt..> ?
How does your editor :
move
the text in the sentence starting with the 2nd occurance
of "happy" up to the end of the 4th occurance of "happy",
over to:
immediately after 2nd sentence containing "immediately".
See solution below.
But of course those who DO prefer the methods that I hate,
have got their valid reasons. I hate having to look up & down
between keybrd & screen.
We techies won't discuss/analyse psychological factors:
maximum of 3 items to remember,
the value of confirming feed-back, ...etc.
We just write "I do / like /feel / prefer..." without trying
to analyse the reasons.
As an example of analysis that needs to be STATED:
a major attraction/advantage of forth is that the
programmer can use the evolutionary method,
instead of the punishing-method of go-back-to-zero,
several times.
Evolution: proceeding from where you ARE, is a lazy,
undisciplined method; but requires continual confirmation
of 'where you are', ie. feedback.
Visual feedback, is what effective IDEs give you.
*nix's `mc`: the descendant/clone of the '70's M$
Norton Commander is an example of a classical design.
Since I use it all the time, I had to think deeply why many
people hate it. Perhaps they have learned-sequences-of
steps to various targets, which they just want to spill-out
as a single-chunk, without being diverted during the
single-chunk delivery.
I suspect that Eclipse would be a good investment of
effort for many users, because I've come to admit that
Debian's <ExpertSystem inspire> `aptitude` is an attempt
to handle the 'matching' of their mass of programs.
But, so far I hate aptitude.
The opposite approach to having a magic all-purpose tool,
like `mc`, is the *nix tool-box method, where the Forth-like
piping of processes through N stages allows you to economically
evolve programs, where importantly: if the product is OK at
stage 5, you never need to go back, before stage-5, and lose
all your effort.
By far, my favourite heavy-artillery [for complex tasks] is [the
amazingly light-weight] ETHOberon - I use the *nix based version.
Plan9, which AFAIK was designed by the boys who did the original
unix, copied ETHO with `acme`. I've got the pubic domain `wily`
which tries to match ETHO's:
* multiple text frames per screen, in [possibly]2 colums: 66% + 33%
* Text ANYwhere is LIVE. Eg. <kluxing> a word can do various
actions; where the <kluxing vocabulary> consists of the possible
chords of the 3-button mouse.
So eg. if I see 'ET.Do' ANYwhere;
*klux1 with the cursor on 'ET.Do' could: Open the file:ET.Do
in a heuristically determined place [or where I <F1>-ed]
*klux2 with the cursor on 'ET.Do' could: Run the executable
`ET.Do`
*klux3,4...etc.
ETHO is much more visual that eg. emacs.
I'm looking at ETHO now.
As an example, I'll paste my "C.Tool"'s header/menu:-
C.Tool | System.Close .Copy .Grow Edit.Search .Store
This multiColored/Fonted TextFrame shows the contents of file:
C.Tool, and the 5 labeled actions: Close...Store are marked
ON-THE-BOTTLE [so that you don't need to search for them].
And BTW if you want to `Search` in 'C.Tool' for a text-string that
you see ANYWHERE, you just 'wipe' the text-string and
klux "C.Tool"'s 'Edit.Search'.
For the most complex problems, spread over many files, dirs,
partitions: email, News, mans, test logs ..., the ability to
easily color/font wipe your text, gives an extra dimension.
So. eg. the A,B,..E aspects of the project can be marked with
matching colours.
--------
Editing task described above:
Get/see source string [possibly extending over multiple screens,
which should the be bracketed by: opening 'frame' above a
'closing' frame].
* Select [via appropriate klux] "happy" from anywhere that
it's seen.
* appropriate klux `Search` on the particular textFrame to find
the 1st occurance of the selected "happy"
* appropriate klux `Search` to find next ie. 2nd occurance.
* Visually scan back to senctence beginning.
* appropriate klux `Copy` to contain 4th occurance of "happy"
AFTER above search.
* use similar `Search` method to find end of the source-string.
---
* appropriate klux `Copy` to contain the end of the 2nd sentence
containing "immediately". [TextFrames can be appropriately
conveniently repositioned at any time.]
* use similar method to find end of the target-string.
---
* appropriate klux to mark the beginning 7nd end of the
source-string.
* appropriate klux to move the selected source-string
to the selected target position.
It's all done visually, with feedback.
Because we have biologically evolved to operate via
visual feedback.
So yes, an effective IDE makes a MASSIVE difference.
I always say "other systems, compared with ETHO
feel, like tying my shoe-laces wearing boxing gloves."
BTW Oberon is the descendant of Prof. Wirth's
Pascal, Modula.
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Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors General Van Ryberg <vvdleun@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-16 12:15 -0700
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-09-16 20:39 +0100
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors voidvolker@gmail.com - 2013-09-16 12:50 -0700
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-16 11:02 -1000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-17 00:50 +0200
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-16 20:35 -0700
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-17 00:39 -0400
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors josv@planet.nl - 2013-09-27 09:34 -0700
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-17 10:57 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-17 17:49 +0200
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-17 17:05 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-18 10:38 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 00:15 +0100
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-18 09:37 +0200
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-18 08:46 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 17:44 +0100
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-09-18 23:36 +0200
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 11:53 +0100
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-18 08:54 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 13:19 +0100
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 11:41 +0100
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors no.top.post@gmail.com - 2013-10-02 00:56 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-18 10:40 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 17:36 +0100
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 21:50 -0700
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-18 08:39 +0000
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-09-18 10:39 -0700
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-09-18 10:43 -0700
Re: Advice requested on working with Forth and external editors General Van Ryberg <vvdleun@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-21 00:32 -0700
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