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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #50049 > unrolled thread
| Started by | endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-08-13 10:01 -0700 |
| Last post | 2016-09-24 00:08 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 71 — 19 participants |
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Re: how can forth compete with lisp endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com - 2016-08-13 10:01 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2016-08-13 10:24 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-13 11:25 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-08-13 11:47 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-13 12:17 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-13 12:40 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-13 13:08 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-13 13:58 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-14 00:32 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-18 16:11 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-19 06:45 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-20 00:41 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:26 -0400
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2016-08-21 18:17 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Bill Zimmerly <billzimmerly@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 21:19 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Bill Zimmerly <billzimmerly@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 22:40 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-16 09:03 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-16 10:00 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-09-24 21:27 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:23 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 15:55 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-23 18:39 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 20:20 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-23 18:46 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-23 22:16 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 22:40 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:07 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:11 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:13 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-23 21:15 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-24 00:47 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-23 22:18 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-24 19:26 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-24 21:30 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 13:53 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-25 13:59 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 17:38 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-25 17:54 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-25 14:43 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-09-26 14:53 +0100
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-26 14:02 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-09-27 11:16 +0100
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-27 10:28 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-09-28 11:41 +0100
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-28 13:27 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-09-28 08:05 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-28 11:40 -0500
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-09-28 10:13 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-28 08:39 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:14 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-28 11:33 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:12 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-28 08:35 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-09-29 06:59 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-29 09:43 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-30 09:39 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-30 16:54 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-30 17:14 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-01 11:06 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-01 12:20 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-02 02:04 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-01 17:00 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:28 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:27 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2016-10-01 13:12 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-01 16:07 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:33 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:23 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-02 18:45 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:24 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:08 -0700
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-26 14:02 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <0oSdncYZpp6GKnTKnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #51326 |
On 9/26/16 3:53 AM, jim wrote: > In article <qcGdnX7N65C78nXKnZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@supernews.com>, > erather@forth.com says... >> ... >> Like the >> user-face, it was developed using SwiftForth and SwiftX. > > ... Why? Because FORTH, Inc. was hired to do the project that way. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | jim <anon@example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-27 11:16 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.3254573ce04afbc4989691@news.virginmedia.com> |
| In reply to | #51347 |
In article <0oSdncYZpp6GKnTKnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@supernews.com>, erather@forth.com says... > > On 9/26/16 3:53 AM, jim wrote: > > In article <qcGdnX7N65C78nXKnZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@supernews.com>, > > erather@forth.com says... > >> ... > >> Like the > >> user-face, it was developed using SwiftForth and SwiftX. > > > > ... Why? > > Because FORTH, Inc. was hired to do the project that way. > > Cheers, > Elizabeth Yes ... but why forth?
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-27 10:28 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #51369 |
On 9/27/16 12:16 AM, jim wrote: > In article <0oSdncYZpp6GKnTKnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@supernews.com>, > erather@forth.com says... >> >> On 9/26/16 3:53 AM, jim wrote: >>> In article <qcGdnX7N65C78nXKnZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@supernews.com>, >>> erather@forth.com says... >>>> ... >>>> Like the >>>> user-face, it was developed using SwiftForth and SwiftX. >>> >>> ... Why? >> >> Because FORTH, Inc. was hired to do the project that way. >> >> Cheers, >> Elizabeth > > > Yes ... but why forth? > All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development costs. This assumes, of course, that the person doing the estimating is already professionally skilled in the language in question. Companies considering using Forth for the first time commonly hire Forth professionals to do the first project and, in parallel, train local programmers in Forth to provide ongoing maintenance as needed. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | jim <anon@example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 11:41 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.3255aea2d622a5a2989692@news.virginmedia.com> |
| In reply to | #51403 |
In article <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com>, erather@forth.com says... > > > All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy > ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs > using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will > take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development > costs. > Yes Elizabeth ... All of the usual reasons is the oft quoted response. What I'm trying to get at is what evaluations did they do - what comparisons and what systems analysis convinced them to use Forth as opposed to anything else? Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over say Steven at MPE - and so on. Or is it more likely they just went with the myths because someone there is a forth fan? Wouldn't it be helpful to you to have such information on your web site?
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| From | albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 13:27 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <nsg9fr$4du$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #51430 |
In article <MPG.3255aea2d622a5a2989692@news.virginmedia.com>, jim <anon@example.com> wrote: >In article <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com>, >erather@forth.com says... >> >> >> All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy >> ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs >> using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will >> take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development >> costs. >> >Yes Elizabeth ... All of the usual reasons is the oft quoted response. >What I'm trying to get at is what evaluations did they do - what comparisons >and what systems analysis convinced them to use Forth as opposed to anything >else? > >Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced >or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over >say Steven at MPE - and so on. Of course not. Elizabeth was good friends with a very non-knowledgeable manager that she knew from the golf course. After a lot of fancy diners payed by her, the inapt manager forced Forth down the throat of his poor technicians, who despite the odds succeeded in making an excellent product. ;-) Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | foxaudioresearch@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 08:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5ceb41f9-c50d-4a96-a99b-9ff9be90bc19@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51433 |
On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:19:01 AM UTC-4, Albert van der Horst wrote: > In article <MPG.3255aea2d622a5a2989692@news.virginmedia.com>, > jim <anon@example.com> wrote: > >In article <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com>, > >erather@forth.com says... > >> > >> > >> All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy > >> ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs > >> using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will > >> take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development > >> costs. > >> > >Yes Elizabeth ... All of the usual reasons is the oft quoted response. > >What I'm trying to get at is what evaluations did they do - what comparisons > >and what systems analysis convinced them to use Forth as opposed to anything > >else? > > > >Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced > >or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over > >say Steven at MPE - and so on. > > Of course not. Elizabeth was good friends with a very non-knowledgeable > manager that she knew from the golf course. After a lot of fancy diners > payed by her, the inapt manager forced Forth down the throat of > his poor technicians, who despite the odds succeeded in making an excellent > product. ;-) > > Groetjes Albert > -- > Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS > Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. > albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst Albert, I can't tell if you are being funny or if you think this true. Care to clarify? For the record on my side having managed both engineering teams and sales teams they are very different creatures and one cannot replace the other. Engineering people do engineering. No issue there. Sales people despite what might be believed here are relationship managers maintaining the emotional side of business relationships. If you don't believe that then you have never had to convince someone to spend $4,000,000 USD NOW in exchange for "profit in the future". It takes some hand holding. (figuratively speaking) BF P.S. I have never claimed to be a sales person, but I have had to impersonate one on occasion to help my sales team get a big contract signed. It's exhausting.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 11:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <TZGdnYGCVLoZb3bKnZ2dnUU78I-dnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #51439 |
foxaudioresearch@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Of course not. Elizabeth was good friends with a very non-knowledgeable >> manager that she knew from the golf course. After a lot of fancy diners >> payed by her, the inapt manager forced Forth down the throat of >> his poor technicians, who despite the odds succeeded in making an excellent >> product. ;-) >> >> Groetjes Albert >> -- >> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS >> Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. >> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst > > Albert, I can't tell if you are being funny or if you think this true. > Care to clarify? He's poking our latest anonymous troll with a stick. He perhaps shouldn't do that, but I imagine it's hard to resist. Andrew.
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| From | foxaudioresearch@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 10:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1c035b95-55b4-42b4-acae-f919e2b804f6@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51442 |
On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 12:40:38 PM UTC-4, Andrew Haley wrote: > foxaudioresearch@gmail.com wrote: > >> > >> Of course not. Elizabeth was good friends with a very non-knowledgeable > >> manager that she knew from the golf course. After a lot of fancy diners > >> payed by her, the inapt manager forced Forth down the throat of > >> his poor technicians, who despite the odds succeeded in making an excellent > >> product. ;-) > >> > >> Groetjes Albert > >> -- > >> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS > >> Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. > >> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst > > > > Albert, I can't tell if you are being funny or if you think this true. > > Care to clarify? > > He's poking our latest anonymous troll with a stick. He perhaps > shouldn't do that, but I imagine it's hard to resist. > > Andrew. OK. I thought so, but it was written "with a straight face". Thanks Andrew. BF
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 08:39 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <YtqdnReCxevwk3HKnZ2dnUU7-KdQAAAA@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #51439 |
On 9/28/16 5:05 AM, foxaudioresearch@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:19:01 AM UTC-4, Albert van der Horst wrote: >> In article <MPG.3255aea2d622a5a2989692@news.virginmedia.com>, >> jim <anon@example.com> wrote: >>> In article <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com>, >>> erather@forth.com says... >>>> >>>> >>>> All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy >>>> ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs >>>> using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will >>>> take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development >>>> costs. >>>> >>> Yes Elizabeth ... All of the usual reasons is the oft quoted response. >>> What I'm trying to get at is what evaluations did they do - what comparisons >>> and what systems analysis convinced them to use Forth as opposed to anything >>> else? >>> >>> Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced >>> or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over >>> say Steven at MPE - and so on. >> >> Of course not. Elizabeth was good friends with a very non-knowledgeable >> manager that she knew from the golf course. After a lot of fancy diners >> payed by her, the inapt manager forced Forth down the throat of >> his poor technicians, who despite the odds succeeded in making an excellent >> product. ;-) >> >> Groetjes Albert >> -- >> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS >> Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. >> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst > > Albert, I can't tell if you are being funny or if you think this true. > Care to clarify? Funny. I can't play golf. :-) > For the record on my side having managed both engineering teams and sales teams > they are very different creatures and one cannot replace the other. > Engineering people do engineering. No issue there. > > Sales people despite what might be believed here are relationship managers > maintaining the emotional side of business relationships. If you don't believe > that then you have never had to convince someone to spend $4,000,000 USD > NOW in exchange for "profit in the future". It takes some hand holding. > (figuratively speaking) > > BF > > P.S. I have never claimed to be a sales person, but I have had to impersonate > one on occasion to help my sales team get a big contract signed. > It's exhausting. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 18:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b688d28b-4bb3-4002-a0ef-f4467e975bd4@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51439 |
On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, foxaudio...@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:19:01 AM UTC-4, Albert van der Horst wrote: > > In article <MPG.3255aea2d622a5a2989692@news.virginmedia.com>, > > jim <anon@example.com> wrote: > > >In article <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com>, > > >erather@forth.com says... > > >> > > >> > > >> All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy > > >> ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs > > >> using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will > > >> take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development > > >> costs. > > >> > > >Yes Elizabeth ... All of the usual reasons is the oft quoted response. > > >What I'm trying to get at is what evaluations did they do - what comparisons > > >and what systems analysis convinced them to use Forth as opposed to anything > > >else? > > > > > >Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced > > >or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over > > >say Steven at MPE - and so on. > > > > Of course not. Elizabeth was good friends with a very non-knowledgeable > > manager that she knew from the golf course. After a lot of fancy diners > > payed by her, the inapt manager forced Forth down the throat of > > his poor technicians, who despite the odds succeeded in making an excellent > > product. ;-) > > > > Groetjes Albert > > -- > > Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS > > Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. > > albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst > > Albert, I can't tell if you are being funny or if you think this true. > Care to clarify? > > For the record on my side having managed both engineering teams and sales teams > they are very different creatures and one cannot replace the other. > Engineering people do engineering. No issue there. > > Sales people despite what might be believed here are relationship managers > maintaining the emotional side of business relationships. If you don't believe > that then you have never had to convince someone to spend $4,000,000 USD > NOW in exchange for "profit in the future". It takes some hand holding. > (figuratively speaking) > > BF > > P.S. I have never claimed to be a sales person, but I have had to impersonate > one on occasion to help my sales team get a big contract signed. > It's exhausting. why not spend 100k then see some profit like 100k then pay another 100k
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| From | stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 11:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <57eba893.764792124@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #51430 |
On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 11:41:27 +0100, jim <anon@example.com> wrote: >Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced >or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over >say Steven at MPE - and so on. I suspect that you want numbers. But, and it's a big but, who has a successful project rewritten in another language just to satisfy curiosity? I have only seen this once, when Europay had the 8051 OTA kernel rewritten in C because (even then in the 1990s), C was more fashionable than Forth. The programmer who undertook the rewrite was a really good C programmer - he was MPE's goto C programmer and C compiler writer. Where the 8051 Forth kernel fitted perfectly, the C version broke the 64 kb barrier. I know this is code size not time. All the time evidence I have is anecdotal. Several MPE clients have been bought for the technology developed with Forth. Usually when the buyer tries to change the programming language, they also end up changing the culture. In the vast majority of these cases productivity (in terms of new product development rate) suffers badly. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 18:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2d7f86c7-e5e9-4f90-bca1-6ccf4494bc27@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51434 |
On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:33:05 AM UTC-4, Stephen Pelc wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 11:41:27 +0100, jim <anon@example.com> wrote: > > >Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced > >or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over > >say Steven at MPE - and so on. > > I suspect that you want numbers. But, and it's a big but, who > has a successful project rewritten in another language just > to satisfy curiosity? I have only seen this once, when Europay > had the 8051 OTA kernel rewritten in C because (even then in > the 1990s), C was more fashionable than Forth. The programmer > who undertook the rewrite was a really good C programmer - he > was MPE's goto C programmer and C compiler writer. Where the > 8051 Forth kernel fitted perfectly, the C version broke the > 64 kb barrier. > > I know this is code size not time. All the time evidence I have > is anecdotal. Several MPE clients have been bought for the > technology developed with Forth. Usually when the buyer > tries to change the programming language, they also end up > changing the culture. In the vast majority of these cases > productivity (in terms of new product development rate) > suffers badly. > > Stephen > > -- > Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com > MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time > 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England > tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 > web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads so forth can do better head to head with c? Wow I must set aside time to experiment with and learn forth...... seems very powerfullllll
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-28 08:35 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <YtqdnRSCxesVkHHKnZ2dnUU7-KfNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #51430 |
On 9/28/16 12:41 AM, jim wrote: > In article <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com>, > erather@forth.com says... >> >> >> All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy >> ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs >> using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will >> take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development >> costs. >> > Yes Elizabeth ... All of the usual reasons is the oft quoted response. > What I'm trying to get at is what evaluations did they do - what comparisons > and what systems analysis convinced them to use Forth as opposed to anything > else? > > Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced > or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over > say Steven at MPE - and so on. > > Or is it more likely they just went with the myths because someone there > is a forth fan? > > Wouldn't it be helpful to you to have such information on your web site? I wish we could. Unfortunately, we rarely know all the internal processes on which our customers base their decisions, but because Forth is relatively unknown in general computing, it usually involves someone in the company who has been in or knows about another company that used Forth successfully (a more concrete recommendation than just "being a fan"). As far as the "1/4" figure is concerned, we do have a very large number of actual instances in which development time estimates were given by experienced programmers in alternative languages (usually C) and by Forth programmers, and we have seen many of these projects to completion in which the low Forth estimate worked out. Of course, the "1/4" is an approximation. Sometimes it's a lot less, sometimes not so much, especially when the specifications turn out to have been inadequate (which would have hampered the C project as well, of course). And, we've seen it go the other way. One company in the LA area had a line of instruments that had been programmed in Forth for years. They needed a new model. We quoted $30K for it, but the new division manager insisted that it (and the code for all their other instuments) be re-written in a "standard language" (C) and got an estimate from another company of $50K for the re-write. About 5 years later, they called us to add a minor feature to our code; when we asked what had happened to the C project, we learned that it was still under way but not complete, and the cost had bloomed to >$350K. We do describe a number of projects on our web site, both older and more recent. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | foxaudioresearch@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-29 06:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1d004a18-4f8a-4983-addf-a02d76231bd8@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51446 |
> > And, we've seen it go the other way. One company in the LA area had a > line of instruments that had been programmed in Forth for years. They > needed a new model. We quoted $30K for it, but the new division manager > insisted that it (and the code for all their other instuments) be > re-written in a "standard language" (C) and got an estimate from another > company of $50K for the re-write. About 5 years later, they called us to > add a minor feature to our code; when we asked what had happened to the > C project, we learned that it was still under way but not complete, and > the cost had bloomed to >$350K. > It's remarkable how a manager could survive making that decision in a well run business. Ten times budget over-runs are not well tolerated in the world I came from. It would seem from that story that it's not only Forth people who have "religious beliefs" about programming languages. Thanks for the business world + Forth anecdotes Elizabeth. I always appreciate the insights. BF
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-29 09:43 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <rqCdne_yhp1_83DKnZ2dnUU7-TPNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #51457 |
On 9/29/16 3:59 AM, foxaudioresearch@gmail.com wrote: >> >> And, we've seen it go the other way. One company in the LA area had a >> line of instruments that had been programmed in Forth for years. They >> needed a new model. We quoted $30K for it, but the new division manager >> insisted that it (and the code for all their other instuments) be >> re-written in a "standard language" (C) and got an estimate from another >> company of $50K for the re-write. About 5 years later, they called us to >> add a minor feature to our code; when we asked what had happened to the >> C project, we learned that it was still under way but not complete, and >> the cost had bloomed to >$350K. >> > > It's remarkable how a manager could survive making that decision in a well run > business. Ten times budget over-runs are not well tolerated in the world I came > from. Well, it was not the same manager :-) I have no idea what all went on during those years, but the "we needed a standard language" is hypnotic. They also hoped by doing the rewrite that they could find "$30/hr programmers on every streetcorner." An expensive "economy"! > It would seem from that story that it's not only Forth people who have > "religious beliefs" about programming languages. > > Thanks for the business world + Forth anecdotes Elizabeth. I always appreciate > the insights. Thank you! Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-30 09:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <57ee31d7.931004154@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #51461 |
On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 09:43:29 -1000, "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> wrote: >Well, it was not the same manager :-) I have no idea what all went on >during those years, but the "we needed a standard language" is hypnotic. >They also hoped by doing the rewrite that they could find "$30/hr >programmers on every streetcorner." An expensive "economy"! I suspect that the "average programmer" trap is the real reason for failure. I have been watching a similar fiasco at a client. After seven years the "standard language" team has been sacked and the Forth team is back in favour. It's nearly always a bad sign when the HR department gets involved in hiring programmers. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
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| From | lawrencedo99@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-30 16:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d68c0c59-4f0d-436c-9244-3e73f96be56a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51461 |
On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 8:43:35 AM UTC+13, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > They also hoped by doing the rewrite that they could find "$30/hr > programmers on every streetcorner." You may reasonably expect that with PHP and Java, but not with C. C is not kind to mediocre programmers <http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus>.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-30 17:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87vaxd2aea.fsf@jester.gateway.pace.com> |
| In reply to | #51495 |
lawrencedo99@gmail.com writes: >> They also hoped by doing the rewrite that they could find "$30/hr >> programmers on every streetcorner." > You may reasonably expect that with PHP and Java, but not with C. C is > not kind to mediocre programmers Well, we don't know how long ago that was. $30/hr used to be pretty good ;-). It also seems to me that kind or unkind as C might be, C programming doesn't pay very well around here compared with other languages these days. I talked with a guy whose company has a big C application and was surprised by the low salaries he was offering. > <http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus>. http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/09/linux-kernel-security-needs-fixing/ Fwiw, I've written a lot of C in my life and more recently have been finding C++ to be much quicker and less bug-prone to program in than C. There's an efficiency hit (speed and memory) from using the STL containers etc., but it's nothing like the difference between C++ and scripting. I think a C++ programmer with a solid understanding of C is better off than a pure C programmer. If I were writing a kernel though, I'd give serious thought to using Ada, or maybe Rust when it gets more mature.
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| From | albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 11:06 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <nsnuaf$6qk$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #51495 |
In article <d68c0c59-4f0d-436c-9244-3e73f96be56a@googlegroups.com>,
<lawrencedo99@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 8:43:35 AM UTC+13, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>> They also hoped by doing the rewrite that they could find "$30/hr
>> programmers on every streetcorner."
>
>You may reasonably expect that with PHP and Java, but not with C. C
is not kind to mediocre programmers
<http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus>.
That is an interesting stand, and probably true for kernel programming
in C++. Especially the STL may not be a good idea for programs that
must be speed ("performance") aware.
I've maintained a large program in C++ at the Dutch Tax Office.
That was one mm short of a nightmare.
That C++ is unreliable is not in general true for tools made by skilled
programmers.
My first(!) project in C++ was a sorting programming using
regular expression. I used templates, and one even was used recursively,
i.e. the same template was used inside itself.
OTOH the handling of regular expressions was c-like and a politically
correct C++ way of doing that could've been really slow.
(Look up ssort on my site.)
The test report is interesting. Not only did it outperform alternative
free programs that I could find, in speed and in capabilities,
but it did better in the test. With few adaptations (w.r.t. I/O
and include files) this program compiles and works after 23 years.
One of the other programs was the GNU sort of the time.
(And yes I did formulate the test beforehand, and I did not make
improvements to my program because of faults found in the tests.)
In the right hands C++ is an awful tool.
Groetjes Albert
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 12:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87d1jj27vu.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #51504 |
albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
> <http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus>.
> That is an interesting stand, and probably true for kernel programming
> in C++. Especially the STL may not be a good idea for programs that
> must be speed ("performance") aware.
I don't think STL causes significant slowdowns depending on what you're
doing. It does cause some memory bloat, and sometimes there are some
design snags (there might or might not be a Boost counterpart that does
what you want).
A couple other things I'd add: that post was written in 2004, and one of
its big complaints was about the unreliability of C++ compilers and
libraries in those days. They have gotten a lot better since then.
The language itself has also gotten a lot better. C++11 was really a
major improvement. It allowed bypassing a lot of Java-like bureaucracy
(through type inference, looping over containers, etc), made STL more
useful, and added new capabilities like move semantics. C++ now feels
about halfway between C and Python in terms of the convenience level it
provides, plus it has a real type system, plus the compiled code is
usually very fast.
It still probably has a lot of obscure hazards, so maybe it's dangerous
for non-experts for things like kernels and internet programs. For the
data crunching stuff I currently use it for, though, I've been enjoying
it.
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