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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #50049 > unrolled thread
| Started by | endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-08-13 10:01 -0700 |
| Last post | 2016-09-24 00:08 -0700 |
| Articles | 11 on this page of 71 — 19 participants |
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Re: how can forth compete with lisp endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com - 2016-08-13 10:01 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2016-08-13 10:24 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-13 11:25 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-08-13 11:47 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-13 12:17 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-13 12:40 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-13 13:08 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-13 13:58 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-14 00:32 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-18 16:11 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-19 06:45 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-20 00:41 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:26 -0400
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2016-08-21 18:17 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Bill Zimmerly <billzimmerly@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 21:19 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Bill Zimmerly <billzimmerly@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 22:40 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-16 09:03 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-16 10:00 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-09-24 21:27 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:23 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 15:55 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-23 18:39 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 20:20 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-23 18:46 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-23 22:16 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 22:40 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:07 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:11 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:13 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-23 21:15 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-24 00:47 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-23 22:18 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-24 19:26 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-24 21:30 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 13:53 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-25 13:59 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 17:38 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-25 17:54 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-25 14:43 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-09-26 14:53 +0100
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-26 14:02 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-09-27 11:16 +0100
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-27 10:28 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-09-28 11:41 +0100
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-28 13:27 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-09-28 08:05 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-28 11:40 -0500
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-09-28 10:13 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-28 08:39 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:14 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-28 11:33 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:12 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-28 08:35 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-09-29 06:59 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-29 09:43 -1000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-30 09:39 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-30 16:54 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-30 17:14 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-01 11:06 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-01 12:20 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-02 02:04 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-01 17:00 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:28 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:27 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2016-10-01 13:12 +0000
Re: how can forth compete with lisp albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-01 16:07 +0200
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:33 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 18:23 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-02 18:45 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 17:24 -0700
Re: how can forth compete with lisp polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 00:08 -0700
Page 4 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4]
| From | albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 02:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <nspiv2$f8n$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #51511 |
In article <87d1jj27vu.fsf@nightsong.com>,
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
>> <http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus>.
>> That is an interesting stand, and probably true for kernel programming
>> in C++. Especially the STL may not be a good idea for programs that
>> must be speed ("performance") aware.
>
>I don't think STL causes significant slowdowns depending on what you're
>doing. It does cause some memory bloat, and sometimes there are some
>design snags (there might or might not be a Boost counterpart that does
>what you want).
I won't say STL per se was the problem, it was the way it was used by
the dudes that were hired by the tax office.
>
>A couple other things I'd add: that post was written in 2004, and one of
>its big complaints was about the unreliability of C++ compilers and
>libraries in those days. They have gotten a lot better since then.
>
>The language itself has also gotten a lot better. C++11 was really a
>major improvement. It allowed bypassing a lot of Java-like bureaucracy
>(through type inference, looping over containers, etc), made STL more
>useful, and added new capabilities like move semantics. C++ now feels
>about halfway between C and Python in terms of the convenience level it
>provides, plus it has a real type system, plus the compiled code is
>usually very fast.
But it is so big that even an expert only understands part of it in
detail. Even in Forth we sometimes consider obscure conflicts between
part of the language. It is like Italy. Everybody can get arrested
at any time, because there are so many laws that it is just a matter
of finding the one a person is trespassing at the time.
>
>It still probably has a lot of obscure hazards, so maybe it's dangerous
>for non-experts for things like kernels and internet programs. For the
>data crunching stuff I currently use it for, though, I've been enjoying
>it.
It requires a lot of care, then it may pay off.
You forgot to mention safety critical software, by the way.
Groetjes Albert
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 17:00 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87zimnzkju.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #51512 |
albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes: > But it [C++] is so big that even an expert only understands part of it > in detail. Yeah, lots of it is legacy though. If you maintain an old program you can look unknown stuff up in the manual. If you're writing new code, stay in the modern fragment and it holds up ok. There are a few docs about how to do that. > It requires a lot of care, then it may pay off. You forgot to mention > safety critical software, by the way. Yeah, there are some standards for safety critical C++ but I'm skeptical. I've played around with Ada a little and find it more cumbersome than C, but not drastically so, and it feels a lot more solid. It was made for safety critical stuff and still seems like a good choice.
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 17:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <744b91fb-9be6-4e48-b81a-cdda0fd1900e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51430 |
On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 6:42:34 AM UTC-4, jim wrote: > In article <NI6dnbysTJ_jS3fKnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@supernews.com>, > erather@forth.com says... > > > > > > All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy > > ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs > > using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will > > take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development > > costs. > > > Yes Elizabeth ... All of the usual reasons is the oft quoted response. > What I'm trying to get at is what evaluations did they do - what comparisons > and what systems analysis convinced them to use Forth as opposed to anything > else? > > Why did they think they could do it in 1/4 of the time - have they produced > or even done anything to justify that? Why did they choose you over > say Steven at MPE - and so on. > > Or is it more likely they just went with the myths because someone there > is a forth fan? > > Wouldn't it be helpful to you to have such information on your web site? Hey man keep it polite you dumb shit.
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 17:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0baf93ec-5166-49c4-8bcc-70b0c8cb6263@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51403 |
On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 4:28:51 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > On 9/27/16 12:16 AM, jim wrote: > > In article <0oSdncYZpp6GKnTKnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@supernews.com>, > > erather@forth.com says... > >> > >> On 9/26/16 3:53 AM, jim wrote: > >>> In article <qcGdnX7N65C78nXKnZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@supernews.com>, > >>> erather@forth.com says... > >>>> ... > >>>> Like the > >>>> user-face, it was developed using SwiftForth and SwiftX. > >>> > >>> ... Why? > >> > >> Because FORTH, Inc. was hired to do the project that way. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Elizabeth > > > > > > Yes ... but why forth? > > > > All of the usual reasons: fast development time, compact code, easy > ongoing maintenance. Companies that get estimates for development costs > using Forth vs. C or whatever typically find that Forth development will > take about 1/4 of the time, with commensurate reduction in development > costs. > > This assumes, of course, that the person doing the estimating is already > professionally skilled in the language in question. Companies > considering using Forth for the first time commonly hire Forth > professionals to do the first project and, in parallel, train local > programmers in Forth to provide ongoing maintenance as needed. > > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > -- > ================================================== > Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH > FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 > 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 > Los Angeles, CA 90045 > http://www.forth.com > > "Forth-based products and Services for real-time > applications since 1973." > ================================================== could forth do big data? like map reduce kinda stuff on a cluster of amd cpu servers? like spark hadoop and solr are used for now? I work for a conglomerate with all kinda CMS and manufacturing and customer ERP and sales stuff and its mostly java garbage on linux mega inefficient one app is a total of 900Ghz cpu and 4T ram and its semi slow. It also will burn up some boxes, while others sit idle..... SOOO sad
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| From | dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 13:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <962482049.497019600.817812.dunno-dunno.dunno@news.mixmin.net> |
| In reply to | #51259 |
<lawrencedo99@gmail.com> wrote: > On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 8:19:03 PM UTC+12, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: >> The largest Forth projects I know of were never published and never will >> be. They are either proprietary or highly secure. The vast majority of >> computer projects are never published. > > And yet there seems to be a peculiar absence of Forth from the Free > Software world. Have you ever worked on anything as large as the Linux > kernel? That’s currently up to 20 million lines of source code, with > something like 1000 active contributors, and can manage a major new > stable release every few months. It is probably the most successful and > productive single software project in history. I wonder why wasn't it written in Lisp. Couldn't it be done in Lisp with 1% of the effort? >> Who paid for them? Someone. They were not volunteer efforts. > > Most of the projects I mentioned were indeed volunteer efforts. > >>> More than that, does Forth seem to appeal to the loners, those who don’t >>> work well on collaborative projects? Which is why it never gets used for >>> anything large... > >> I spent 35 years working on collaborative Forth projects, many of which >> were large and successful, but not widely publicized. That is the tragedy. > > Lots of companies have discovered that they can lower development costs > by open-sourcing what were originally in-house projects. How come that > never seems to apply to anything done in Forth? > -- dunno
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| From | albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 16:07 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <nsofuc$87j$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #51506 |
In article <962482049.497019600.817812.dunno-dunno.dunno@news.mixmin.net>, dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> wrote: ><lawrencedo99@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 8:19:03 PM UTC+12, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: >>> The largest Forth projects I know of were never published and never will >>> be. They are either proprietary or highly secure. The vast majority of >>> computer projects are never published. >> >> And yet there seems to be a peculiar absence of Forth from the Free >> Software world. Have you ever worked on anything as large as the Linux >> kernel? That’s currently up to 20 million lines of source code, with >> something like 1000 active contributors, and can manage a major new >> stable release every few months. It is probably the most successful and >> productive single software project in history. > >I wonder why wasn't it written in Lisp. Couldn't it be done in Lisp with 1% >of the effort? Maybe, but Lispers are conspicuously absent from the golf courses. >dunno Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 18:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c57b3362-7c1d-4952-b0e3-7df706b88b77@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51507 |
On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 9:58:46 AM UTC-4, Albert van der Horst wrote: > In article <962482049.497019600.817812.dunno-dunno.dunno@news.mixmin.net>, > dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> wrote: > ><lawrencedo99@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 8:19:03 PM UTC+12, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > >>> The largest Forth projects I know of were never published and never will > >>> be. They are either proprietary or highly secure. The vast majority of > >>> computer projects are never published. > >> > >> And yet there seems to be a peculiar absence of Forth from the Free > >> Software world. Have you ever worked on anything as large as the Linux > >> kernel? That’s currently up to 20 million lines of source code, with > >> something like 1000 active contributors, and can manage a major new > >> stable release every few months. It is probably the most successful and > >> productive single software project in history. > > > >I wonder why wasn't it written in Lisp. Couldn't it be done in Lisp with 1% > >of the effort? > > Maybe, but Lispers are conspicuously absent from the golf courses. > > >dunno > > Groetjes Albert > -- > Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS > Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. > albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst paul graham sold viaweb for 50m ita runs orbits on lisp
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 18:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <351c6e50-f363-408c-8114-782152e4e96a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51506 |
On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 9:12:32 AM UTC-4, dunno wrote: > <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 8:19:03 PM UTC+12, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > >> The largest Forth projects I know of were never published and never will > >> be. They are either proprietary or highly secure. The vast majority of > >> computer projects are never published. > > > > And yet there seems to be a peculiar absence of Forth from the Free > > Software world. Have you ever worked on anything as large as the Linux > > kernel? That’s currently up to 20 million lines of source code, with > > something like 1000 active contributors, and can manage a major new > > stable release every few months. It is probably the most successful and > > productive single software project in history. > > I wonder why wasn't it written in Lisp. Couldn't it be done in Lisp with 1% > of the effort? > > >> Who paid for them? Someone. They were not volunteer efforts. > > > > Most of the projects I mentioned were indeed volunteer efforts. > > > >>> More than that, does Forth seem to appeal to the loners, those who don’t > >>> work well on collaborative projects? Which is why it never gets used for > >>> anything large... > > > >> I spent 35 years working on collaborative Forth projects, many of which > >> were large and successful, but not widely publicized. That is the tragedy. > > > > Lots of companies have discovered that they can lower development costs > > by open-sourcing what were originally in-house projects. How come that > > never seems to apply to anything done in Forth? > > > > > > -- > dunno this is an interesting point!
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| From | lawrencedo99@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 18:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5c78e0a7-7b66-41b5-8066-566207485717@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51506 |
On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 2:12:32 AM UTC+13, dunno wrote: > Couldn't it be done in Lisp with 1% of the effort? That kind of thing has been done <http://paulgraham.com/carl.html>.
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 17:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a57688d3-89c6-4c64-b493-24ccc7ea5021@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51259 |
On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 10:26:19 PM UTC-4, lawren...@gmail.com wrote: > On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 8:19:03 PM UTC+12, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > > The largest Forth projects I know of were never published and never will > > be. They are either proprietary or highly secure. The vast majority of > > computer projects are never published. > > And yet there seems to be a peculiar absence of Forth from the Free Software world. Have you ever worked on anything as large as the Linux kernel? That’s currently up to 20 million lines of source code, with something like 1000 active contributors, and can manage a major new stable release every few months. It is probably the most successful and productive single software project in history. > > > Who paid for them? Someone. They were not volunteer efforts. > > Most of the projects I mentioned were indeed volunteer efforts. > > >> More than that, does Forth seem to appeal to the loners, those who don’t > >> work well on collaborative projects? Which is why it never gets used for > >> anything large... > > > I spent 35 years working on collaborative Forth projects, many of which > > were large and successful, but not widely publicized. That is the tragedy. > > Lots of companies have discovered that they can lower development costs by open-sourcing what were originally in-house projects. How come that never seems to apply to anything done in Forth? chuck moore should get coloforth and a browser working on a pc in 1% of 1% the code and make linux look like amateurs linux n bsd make apple look like amateurs same as microosft openbsd 6 +icewm+chrome here
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| From | polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-24 00:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <aaab39a7-f335-498a-bc25-a1818386bc31@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #51222 |
On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 12:46:23 AM UTC-4, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > On 9/23/16 3:39 PM, lawrencedo99@gmail.com wrote: > > On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 10:55:10 AM UTC+12, polymorph self wrote: > >> I want to use a forth powered pc to surf the net with firefox or something > >> better in 1% the code! > > > > If it could be done in 1% of the code, it could be done by a single person. Or maybe a small team. > > > > Since this has never been done in the decades since the birth of the WWW, it seems reasonable to conclude it cannot be done. > > It's do-able, certainly, but the problem is that it is still a big job, > and there's not been a sufficient economic incentive for a person or > team to make the effort. > > Cheers, > Elizabeth > > -- > ================================================== > Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH > FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 > 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 > Los Angeles, CA 90045 > http://www.forth.com > > "Forth-based products and Services for real-time > applications since 1973." > ================================================== hmmm I guess its a fun fantasy of mine.
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