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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #42092 > unrolled thread
| Started by | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-09-20 08:45 +0000 |
| Last post | 2015-11-09 13:21 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 191 — 29 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-20 08:45 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 06:34 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-09-21 20:11 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2015-09-23 11:29 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-09-23 21:03 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 03:02 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 01:13 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-21 09:26 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-03 03:46 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-03 22:56 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 02:44 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-04 01:14 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 05:08 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-04 04:06 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-10-04 07:25 -0500
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-04 06:49 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 09:21 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-09 13:24 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-08 22:18 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:59 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 04:24 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 05:08 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 13:57 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 13:36 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-08 13:50 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-10 12:10 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-08 18:10 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-10 14:10 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-10 23:12 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-10-12 10:18 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 14:02 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-12 08:03 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-12 14:58 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-10-13 01:25 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-12 17:38 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-12 16:39 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-10 19:12 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 07:31 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-17 22:44 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-17 21:47 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-18 01:51 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-17 20:26 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-18 21:34 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-19 17:00 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-20 01:51 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-19 16:24 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-20 02:44 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-20 13:01 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-20 22:59 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-20 23:57 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-21 10:58 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-11-11 14:06 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-11 14:48 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 14:59 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 05:28 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 18:18 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-11-11 15:12 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 05:35 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-11-12 06:24 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-11-12 14:44 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 15:18 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-20 12:36 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-18 12:54 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-19 02:47 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 07:24 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 15:10 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 09:15 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-02 20:35 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 17:30 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-13 19:36 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 23:54 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 00:04 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 00:09 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-14 09:45 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 14:54 +0300
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 10:13 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-28 11:38 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 22:03 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-31 02:10 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 02:50 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 18:58 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-31 14:18 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 23:43 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-07 10:44 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-07 23:02 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-31 14:48 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 01:03 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 01:44 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 01:59 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 02:19 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-02 17:32 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 02:14 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 12:10 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-02 16:45 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 10:26 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 02:57 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 16:06 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 09:36 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-02 21:18 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 11:56 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 18:16 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 10:53 +0000
16-bit Forth for Linux Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-20 11:13 +0100
Re: 16-bit Forth for Linux Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-20 15:08 +0000
Re: 16-bit Forth for Linux Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-20 20:11 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 11:10 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 12:43 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-11-03 03:05 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 11:11 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-11-03 03:07 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 11:15 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 12:18 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 12:07 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 15:41 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 20:27 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 11:00 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 11:28 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 12:18 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 17:03 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 19:29 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 14:47 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-04 21:15 -0500
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-11-05 03:19 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-04 16:37 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 20:54 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-05 06:32 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-04 21:17 -0500
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-04 16:44 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-05 01:24 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-05 14:50 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 12:49 -0800
CMFORTH Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-06 08:43 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-11-02 10:46 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 05:52 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 14:52 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 08:06 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 08:32 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-02 20:04 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 22:31 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 18:49 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 12:24 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 19:45 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-03 22:30 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 10:42 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-04 14:08 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-04 14:07 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 14:34 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-04 17:32 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-05 23:00 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-06 07:27 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-06 22:04 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-07 16:07 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-04 13:58 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-04 15:04 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 14:30 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 11:57 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-04 12:06 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 14:53 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 14:44 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-08 00:02 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 15:22 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-09 01:15 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 17:06 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-08 22:12 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 16:17 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-11 02:57 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-10 19:56 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 10:13 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-12 01:53 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 09:19 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 17:30 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-14 20:31 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-15 14:50 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 05:07 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 22:20 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-02 09:27 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 10:51 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-02 14:37 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-02 23:20 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 10:01 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 02:30 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 18:08 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 06:05 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-03 19:35 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 12:27 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-03 22:37 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 14:39 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-04 14:54 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 06:21 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-31 15:00 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 13:21 -0800
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-08 15:22 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <e940d00e-b70b-402c-9f56-72136626faea@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43335 |
воскресенье, 8 ноября 2015 г., 2:02:10 UTC+3 пользователь Bernd Paysan написал: > Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > What kind of help you suggesting me? With 20+ years experience with Forth > > there are very small chances I've miss something really important. I never > > told with Stephen Pelc, but Ertl seems to have very simple strategy when > > asked. I've tried to contact him several times, and he simple stops to > > answer, if question is not elementary. It was very interesting for me how > > he works with his customers (or should I ask him how to add two numbers on > > stack instead?), but he stops the dialog at this point. Now I think he > > just has nothing to answer, because he has no real project with Forth, > > with real customers, technical requirements, milestones etc. It is not so > > critical for university, but he should be honest. > > Maybe you miss some point in the discussion with the free software side, and > then, further discussion is pointless. > > You have customers in a business relationship, the main reason you have > customers for is that you get their money. You have contributors in a free > software relationship. That's a very different relationship, and unlike the > customer relationship, more contributors are not necessarily a good thing. > Non-contribution users are not important at all. > > The free software process, while so much different from the commercial > software process, still produces high-quality and important software, and to > the users (which don't really matter for the free software side), it > actually competes with commercial software. > > In a business relationship, when you are my customer and I'm the > implementer, I have the control over the system, and you can send me feature > requests and bug reports, but you can't fix your problems yourself. I must > then add the features and fix the bugs. In a free software environment, > there is no such direct dependency: I don't have full control, so you can > add all the features you like and fix all the bugs yourself, you get the > code and the right to modify. You can send a bug report *or* you can send a > patch, both is seen as contribution. > > And "projects" is the next point. As we don't need that many Forth > programmers to successfully complete a project, projects don't help us. > When you have 3 Forth programmers doing a project, which can barely be done > with 100 Java programmers, what does it help Forth's rank list? Even when > Forth gets half of all these projects, it's still at 3% of the Java > population count. > > -- > Bernd Paysan > "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" > net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* > http://bernd-paysan.de/ With free software, you can't think this comes for free completely. You need to spend time at least. I can uderstand importancy of large complex open-source projects when we need to involve many programmers with different skills. Is it inportant for Forth? Definitely not, you can complete basic Forth system without deep knowledge in different CS areas. Also, it is not a situation for choosing between commercial or free software. Any activity is critical, when language is close to disapperance point. I wonder who will buy Forth translator 'as is', if peoples can rewrite it (for free software), or pay to altering any functions (for commercial). So why suggesting complete detailed document before discussing real customer wishlist? I can note again, there are many cases when peoples wants his own Forths. It is too childish when it's based on ambitions only, but very, very important, if based on a real requirements, which cannot be resolved with ANS. Ok, let's go to 'projects' now. They may be commercial or research (this also means no immediate payments), but anyway real projects are drivers of theory. Forth rank is not too important, but it is a kind of auxiliary indicator. If you claim Forth is good, how you can prove it? Number of projects done, number of programmers involved, number of publications etc. If you have no money paid for your Forth products, this means absolutely nothing. But you can't have nothing (no money, no publications, no peoples teached or consulted), and still claim you are a top-rank Forth specialist. My best wishes to anyone who use Forth successfully, but this is not an answer to question 'how other programmers can achieve good results?'. I don't want to read a set of success stories of Forth Inc. every time I'm here. Are you?
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-09 01:15 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <n1oofj$h9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #43394 |
Ilya Tarasov wrote: > With free software, you can't think this comes for free completely. You > need to spend time at least. You didn't get the other side: Motivation. Money is not the only form of motivation. Things get done because there is motivation. Money is one of the possible motivations. If your motivation is money, you want to sell something, so if you are looking for sales pitches, you'll get the answer from those people who do it for money. > Also, it is not a situation for choosing between commercial or free > software. Any activity is critical, when language is close to disapperance > point. I wonder who will buy Forth translator 'as is', if peoples can > rewrite it (for free software), or pay to altering any functions (for > commercial). So why suggesting complete detailed document before > discussing real customer wishlist? No, you are confusing formal input with informal input. The official input to a standard committee is formal input, that's how such a process works. If you have informal input, you must find someone who's going to discuss that and transfer that into formal input. Usually, the informal part results in some people implementing a solution in their system. And then, this solution can be formalized. A standard body is not developing the language as such, it's consolidating the development that already happened. > I can note again, there are many cases > when peoples wants his own Forths. It is too childish when it's based on > ambitions only, but very, very important, if based on a real requirements, > which cannot be resolved with ANS. Some standard TCs indeed specify things that come as requirements, and then the compiler makers will or will try to implement it. I don't think that's a good idea. First do a reference implementation, so have an ordinary customer-like relationship (in case of a free software system the relationship is your scratching itch, so you solve your problem yourself), and then feed it into the standardization process. That makes your problem be solved quickly, when you need it, without the buerocratic overhead of a standard and the "we need five more years to thing about this" arguments. Standard bodies are always too slow for that stuff. > Ok, let's go to 'projects' now. They may be commercial or research (this > also means no immediate payments), but anyway real projects are drivers of > theory. Forth rank is not too important, but it is a kind of auxiliary > indicator. If you claim Forth is good, how you can prove it? Number of > projects done, number of programmers involved, number of publications etc. Yes, and we are very bad on the second metric, because people think "more is better". Often enough, the Forth part is not mentioned at all. Do you know that Firefox uses Forth as part of the Java translation process? Maybe. But how many people know that? Mozilla doesn't toot the fanfare, either. This seems to be a one-person project inside the big Firefox project. He's successful, so nobody will replace him. But Forth is rarely giving you a "big thing". It's usually a small thing. Intentionally so. And that's what's irrelevant for many people. There's no way to fix it unless people understand that bloat is bad. > If you have no money paid for your Forth products, this means absolutely > nothing. But you can't have nothing (no money, no publications, no peoples > teached or consulted), and still claim you are a top-rank Forth > specialist. My best wishes to anyone who use Forth successfully, but this > is not an answer to question 'how other programmers can achieve good > results?'. I don't want to read a set of success stories of Forth Inc. > every time I'm here. Are you? I don't write my success stories here every time, because I don't want to sound like a sales person ;-). -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-08 17:06 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <20607596-afda-47d9-9276-9ae4af6812df@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43395 |
понедельник, 9 ноября 2015 г., 3:15:56 UTC+3 пользователь Bernd Paysan написал: > Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > > With free software, you can't think this comes for free completely. You > > need to spend time at least. > > You didn't get the other side: Motivation. Money is not the only form of > motivation. Things get done because there is motivation. Money is one of > the possible motivations. If your motivation is money, you want to sell > something, so if you are looking for sales pitches, you'll get the answer > from those people who do it for money. Why do you turn my words to money again? :) I never told money is a main reason to use Forth. It is your fetish, not mine. If you hate money, it is just another side of money dependency. In my messages you can find many other motivation reasons. > No, you are confusing formal input with informal input. The official input > to a standard committee is formal input, that's how such a process works. > If you have informal input, you must find someone who's going to discuss > that and transfer that into formal input. Usually, the informal part > results in some people implementing a solution in their system. And then, > this solution can be formalized. I'm not interested how committee works. I can write Forth alone and use it for real task. If I have any troubles, I need to agrees with other peoples, if they can provide a solution. > A standard body is not developing the language as such, it's consolidating > the development that already happened. Right now they are trying to catch a pack of worms, leaving a can :) The only way to do it is using a larger can. > Some standard TCs indeed specify things that come as requirements, and then > the compiler makers will or will try to implement it. I don't think that's > a good idea. First do a reference implementation, so have an ordinary Again, usually nobody needs to write a word (or entire Forth), compatible with any kind of document. Nobody refers to standard when writing a function in C++. No standards here. If I see too many features to implement, I will decline the entire document. It is not just my opinion, I see it's happens many times. If you hope situation will change, tell me how you plan to provide it. Just telling 'please refer to ANS'? > Yes, and we are very bad on the second metric, because people think "more is > better". Often enough, the Forth part is not mentioned at all. Do you know > that Firefox uses Forth as part of the Java translation process? Maybe. > But how many people know that? Mozilla doesn't toot the fanfare, either. > This seems to be a one-person project inside the big Firefox project. He's > successful, so nobody will replace him. But Forth is rarely giving you a > "big thing". It's usually a small thing. Intentionally so. Do you mean Tamarin VM? Take a look on .net CLI specification - there are simple DUP and DROP words. It is close to Forth too, but who cares? This is just another success story, with no help when you conversate with other peoples. > I don't write my success stories here every time, because I don't want to > sound like a sales person ;-). Success story can be motivation for researchers too, if prepared and interpreted correctly. Why so much attention to money??
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-08 22:12 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <29709f9f-8df2-496c-994d-b2d0f7a13299@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43394 |
On Sunday, November 8, 2015 at 4:22:56 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > I can note again, there are many cases when peoples wants his own Forths. It is too childish when it's based on ambitions only, but very, very important, if based on a real requirements, which cannot be resolved with ANS. My work experience in Forth was at Testra where I wrote MFX in 1994/1995, the development system for the MiniForth processor based on the Lattice isp1048 PLD. This was based on "real requirements" --- the MiniForth had to run the motion-control software faster than competition's MC68000 system was running, and it had to cost less --- it achieved those goals, and it (now called the RACE and upgraded to an FPGA) is still the processor used in all their motion-control boards 20 years later. From my standpoint, it doesn't matter. ANS-Forth came out in 1994 and largely killed Forth --- after ANS-Forth, there were no jobs available for Forth programmers anymore --- a Standard has a big effect on a language, and if it is a bad standard then the effect is negative. > I don't want to read a set of success stories of Forth Inc. every time I'm here. Are you? Most if not all of Forth Inc.'s success stories are fake. All that talk about NASA came from the Forth Inc. marketing department, but I've never heard anybody from NASA say anything good about Forth Inc. --- I think the story is totally fake (just imagine NASA programmers attending Elizabeth Rather's Forth class and learning about how PAD is the ANS-Forth Standard for temporary storage). Here is a thread in which Elizabeth Rather brags about a "good story" in which she made a sale: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.forth/elizabeth$20france/comp.lang.forth/1y4khh5VZBc/_EQlo5a7XqcJ Later on she cheerfully admits that the customer later decided that they weren't getting their money's worth and canceled the contract; they now use C for their system. AFAIK, all of Forth Inc.'s customers eventually realize that they are getting scammed and write off Forth Inc. as a waste of money. Elizabeth Rather wrote the ANS-Forth document listing Charles Moore and Ray Duncan as supporters of ANS-Forth, although neither of them are supporters of ANS-Forth. All of these success stories and lists of supporters are fake --- she also claims to hob-nob with Barrack Obama's family in Hawaii, and hob-nob with multiple Nobel Peace Prize winners --- in that thread mentioned above she says that SwiftForth users are elite like the Marine Corps, and everybody else is like the Army (she manages to insult two branches of the military in one sentence!). Also, don't pay any attention to Bernd Paysan --- all he has done is that B16 processor and it is just a toy --- he has also written BigForth and worked on gForth, neither of which has ever been used in a commercial application. Look at Bernd Paysan's quotation implementation. His quotations don't have access to the parent function's local variables. They are just :NONAME with some syntactic sugar. This is totally fake! They aren't quotations! Bernd also claims to be an expert on Kung Fu because he watched a lot of chop-socky movies from the 1970s. Maybe later the Forth-200x committee can combine all of these fantasies together and claim to be Nobel Peace Prize winners who hang out with the President in Hawaii and are also Kung Fu masters in the Marine Corp, and work for NASA. This is the thrilling world of Forth-200x...
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-10 16:17 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <067be6a5-7aa1-4a3e-b894-502eb4eed780@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43406 |
> My work experience in Forth was at Testra where I wrote MFX in 1994/1995, the development system for the MiniForth processor based on the Lattice isp1048 PLD. This was based on "real requirements" --- the MiniForth had to run the motion-control software faster than competition's MC68000 system was running, and it had to cost less --- it achieved those goals, and it (now called the RACE and upgraded to an FPGA) is still the processor used in all their motion-control boards 20 years later. When someone choose Forth for his project, being sure it is an effective solution, this is what we need. Unfortunately, common position is 'using Forth for hobby only, and switching to mainstream languages for paid job'. If you have real feedback from the work done, that's great. > From my standpoint, it doesn't matter. ANS-Forth came out in 1994 and largely killed Forth --- after ANS-Forth, there were no jobs available for Forth programmers anymore --- a Standard has a big effect on a language, and if it is a bad standard then the effect is negative. Agreed. Standard now is just a tool for making forthers nervous. From one side, a great flexibility is a feature, but after this we knows about standartized way to use it. Such a sirprise! 'You can do everything with Forth, and this is a standard, which tells you what exactly you must do'... > Most if not all of Forth Inc.'s success stories are fake. All that talk about NASA came from the Forth Inc. marketing department, but I've never heard anybody from NASA say anything good about Forth Inc. --- I think the story is totally fake (just imagine NASA programmers attending Elizabeth Rather's Forth class and learning about how PAD is the ANS-Forth Standard for temporary storage). Here is a thread in which Elizabeth Rather brags about a "good story" in which she made a sale: > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.forth/elizabeth$20france/comp.lang.forth/1y4khh5VZBc/_EQlo5a7XqcJ Well, it looks bad indeed. There are many ways to exist for companies in different markets. The way used by Forth Inc. may be acceptable for them, but not acceptable for others. I have a feeling it is what really happens now - there are a place for Forth Inc. only to be a company claiming 'we are only true forthers in the world'. This is not a way for any other company. I don't want to make an illusion I possessed by any kind of 'true Forth spirit' just for having some money in advance and cancelling projects later. > Also, don't pay any attention to Bernd Paysan --- all he has done is that B16 processor and it is just a toy --- he has also written BigForth and worked on gForth, neither of which has ever been used in a commercial application. He has the same strategy as Ertl - simply stops to answer :) I'm tried to contact him several times, but no reaction. Of course, they both can continue to show they are experts, but this kind of behavioral looks 100 times worse than just tells what exactly they did. Indeed, I don't expect too much from anyone, keeping attention to Forth is more than enough. > Look at Bernd Paysan's quotation implementation. His quotations don't have access to the parent function's local variables. They are just :NONAME with some syntactic sugar. This is totally fake! They aren't quotations! I hope this is not critical mistake in the terms of programming, just tactical. I see more interesting thing - than faced the problem, many so-called experts prefer to hide behind ANS rather than trying to find a solution acceptable for many practical cases. > Bernd also claims to be an expert on Kung Fu because he watched a lot of chop-socky movies from the 1970s. A common fantasy for many persons :))) I've heard from my Chinese master 'you seems to have a kind of shadow of Kung-Fu' after several years or practice only. I can't accept for myself a kind of self-lying as a solution for life. It is very danger to think you are an expert and flee from any attempts to verify is it true or not. Unfortunately, Forth as a rare and non-common language leaves too much places to escape from reality.
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-11 02:57 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <n1u75o$tmh$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #43456 |
Ilya Tarasov wrote: > He has the same strategy as Ertl - simply stops to answer :) I'm tried to > contact him several times, but no reaction. Of course, they both can > continue to show they are experts, but this kind of behavioral looks 100 > times worse than just tells what exactly they did. Indeed, I don't expect > too much from anyone, keeping attention to Forth is more than enough. Well, the discussion with you is no fun. I don't see a point in your arguments, and then it becomes boring. It wasn't insulting with a completely twisted reality like what Hugh is talking, but it was bad enough. Hugh is a worse case, though: I make some fun about Jackie Chan movie, and their theme of learning kung fu, and Hugh's damaged brain imagines I claim I can kung fu. I don't know what to say to this kind of idiocy, so I simply ignore him. It appears to me that you want to be ignored, too. It's a good strategy to deal with trolls, just ignore them. If you see that happens to you quite often that people start to ignore you, it's a sign. But the number 1 problem with trolls is, that they can't read these signs. Even when it is spelled like this: *PLONK* -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-10 19:56 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <982c47df-ea03-476f-8720-c8043b34f3b2@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43458 |
On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:57:22 PM UTC-7, Bernd Paysan wrote: > Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > > He has the same strategy as Ertl - simply stops to answer :) I'm tried to > > contact him several times, but no reaction. Of course, they both can > > continue to show they are experts, but this kind of behavioral looks 100 > > times worse than just tells what exactly they did. Indeed, I don't expect > > too much from anyone, keeping attention to Forth is more than enough. > > Well, the discussion with you is no fun. I don't see a point in your > arguments, and then it becomes boring. It wasn't insulting with a > completely twisted reality like what Hugh is talking, but it was bad enough. > Hugh is a worse case, though: > > I make some fun about Jackie Chan movie, and their theme of learning kung > fu, and Hugh's damaged brain imagines I claim I can kung fu. I don't know > what to say to this kind of idiocy, so I simply ignore him. > > It appears to me that you want to be ignored, too. It's a good strategy to > deal with trolls, just ignore them. If you see that happens to you quite > often that people start to ignore you, it's a sign. But the number 1 > problem with trolls is, that they can't read these signs. > > Even when it is spelled like this: > > *PLONK* Bernd Paysan was appointed to the Forth-200x committee by Elizabeth Rather --- his position there is secure so long as he remains loyal to her --- he can be dismissive of the Forth community because he doesn't need the Forth community to keep his position. I think that Bernd is deeply ashamed of having faked the quotation implementation --- this is why he had Alex McDonald put his name on the RfD rather than put his own name on it, although it was his "assignment" and he wrote the code --- this is why he tries to drive away anybody who knows what quotations are. Bernd thinks that it is "fun" to pretend to be an expert on subjects that he knows nothing about --- his claim of Kung Fu expertise based on seeing the "Drunken Master" movie is typical of him --- his claim to have implemented quotations in Forth-200x is much more damaging to the Forth community's reputation however. Elizabeth Rather created the Forth-200x world in her own image --- a big steaming pile of B.S. --- her whole life is based on name-dropping (Barrack Obama, the Nobel Peace Prize winners, NASA, Charles Moore, etc.), and hence the Forth-200x committee members such as Bernd Paysan also feel comfortable fantasizing publicly about being experts on subjects that they know nothing about, because B.S. is what Forth-200x is founded upon.
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-11 10:13 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <978fbf3a-ea1f-46a8-a6c6-9bee57c24558@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43458 |
> Well, the discussion with you is no fun. I don't see a point in your > arguments, and then it becomes boring. It wasn't insulting with a Really? :) So when I type 'Hello, can you tell something about your Forth experience?', it is no fun and boring? :) I think there is more fun: 'please, tell me your bank account information, because I'm very impressed by your b16 and want to give your money without any further explanations and work from your side'. Ok, you can find a Professor in Germany and explain him, what is already done by you. If any of his questions will be no fun and boring for you, well, I will stop any attempts to find a way to collaboration. > I make some fun about Jackie Chan movie, and their theme of learning kung > fu, and Hugh's damaged brain imagines I claim I can kung fu. I don't know > what to say to this kind of idiocy, so I simply ignore him. I never made conslusions after having only one opinion. > It appears to me that you want to be ignored, too. It's a good strategy to > deal with trolls, just ignore them. If you see that happens to you quite > often that people start to ignore you, it's a sign. But the number 1 > problem with trolls is, that they can't read these signs. Naming me a troll is very bad idea. Of course, you can think and speak anything you want, if you don't want a real result. If you want to collect sweety posts in c.l.f. about your skills and you committee participation, it is your choise. Just don't be surprised on results ;)
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-12 01:53 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <n20np9$p8v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #43475 |
Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > >> Well, the discussion with you is no fun. I don't see a point in your >> arguments, and then it becomes boring. It wasn't insulting with a > > Really? :) So when I type 'Hello, can you tell something about your Forth > experience?', it is no fun and boring? No, the "no fun and boring" is stuff like "if you do not xxx, you can't call yourself a Forth professional", and the xxx is a very narrow metric. I've a web site where you can see what I'm doing including source and everything. If there are specific questions, you can get answers. > Naming me a troll is very bad idea. Of course, you can think and speak > anything you want, if you don't want a real result. If you want to collect > sweety posts in c.l.f. about your skills and you committee participation, > it is your choise. Just don't be surprised on results ;) I don't collect sweet posts. I'm trying to keep the noise level down. Since eternal September, we have to, and that's 22 years ago now. You were wondering why you didn't get respones, and I told you: You made a pretty bad impression. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-12 09:19 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <9d728cdd-9db7-49a8-b1f3-1b81bb64b204@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43458 |
Here we have Bernd Paysan beating up Ilya Tarasov: On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:57:22 PM UTC-7, Bernd Paysan wrote: > Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > > He has the same strategy as Ertl - simply stops to answer :) I'm tried to > > contact him several times, but no reaction. Of course, they both can > > continue to show they are experts, but this kind of behavioral looks 100 > > times worse than just tells what exactly they did. Indeed, I don't expect > > too much from anyone, keeping attention to Forth is more than enough. > > Well, the discussion with you is no fun. I don't see a point in your > arguments, and then it becomes boring. > ... > *PLONK* Here we have Juergen Pintaske beating up Krishna On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 3:48:52 PM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote: > If the commercial vendors would not talk to other professional developers and to companies that need professional products and buy products, Forth would be dead as a language as there would be no credibility anymore. > It is bad enough as it is now. > This would obviously not affect any Forthers, they write a new compiler in the afternoon, but where would they get an image from to be part of reality of accepted programming lanuages if no commercial product exists?? > Get real and try to support the language rather than the own ego. > > Sometimes these comments here look like kindergarden talk of people who have nothing else to do. > The hard work is done by just a few as I saw at Euroforth. This is very insulting! According to Juergen, the commercial vendors (Forth Inc. and MPE) are the sole source of credibility for Forth, and Forth systems such as my MFX were written in one afternoon providing zero credibility. And of course, in 2009 Elizabeth Rather told me that I'm not a Forth programmer, all my Forth code "sucks" and is "crap," and that a squirmy faggot who posts only Perl code is what she prefers to see on comp.lang.forth.. You know, this might one reason why there isn't a next generation of Forth programmers --- everybody who delves into Forth immediately gets a public beating --- if this is the Forth-200x policy toward Forth programmers, then Forth-200x is a negative contributor to Forth! BTW: I have noticed that we seem to be getting a lot of contributions from foreign countries. We have Ilya Tarasov and Ilya Vasilyev both or Russia, Franck Bensusan of France, Krishna of wherever he is from, and Raimond Dragomir of Romania. This is not just in Forth either. We have Lua developed in Brazil, Erlang developed in Sweden, Ruby developed in Japan and Python developed in the Netherlands. I think a big part of why America is under-represented is that our culture is no longer conducive to innovation --- anybody with a brain is denounced in high-school as a "geek," then as adults they get berated by arrogant sales-people such as Elizabeth Rather and Juergen Pintaske --- this is really sad because it was not long ago that America led the world (I mean, in something other than military might, which is nothing to be proud of).
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-13 17:30 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <23a57151-34fe-4362-a6eb-a89ceddf846e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43505 |
четверг, 12 ноября 2015 г., 20:19:58 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал: > Here we have Bernd Paysan beating up Ilya Tarasov: Heh, please don't worry about it :) I am amused very much by his words. He can write at his own, this means nothing. In reality he will just create problems for himself, if repeats this during any official event. I know it, so I'm patient :) > Here we have Juergen Pintaske beating up Krishna I hope Krishna don't worried so much about this puny 'beating'. > This is very insulting! According to Juergen, the commercial vendors (Forth Inc. and MPE) are the sole source of credibility for Forth, and Forth systems such as my MFX were written in one afternoon providing zero credibility. It seems we catch a real problem, are you? I think it is not a first time when this idea appears here. > You know, this might one reason why there isn't a next generation of Forth programmers --- everybody who delves into Forth immediately gets a public beating --- if this is the Forth-200x policy toward Forth programmers, then Forth-200x is a negative contributor to Forth! This has a positive side too. If somebody is a weak-charactered, he will pay too much attention to this kind of public beating, and will cancel his activity. If not, he will throw away this nonsence. However, will he continue to talk here about created products in this case? > BTW: I have noticed that we seem to be getting a lot of contributions from foreign countries. We have Ilya Tarasov and Ilya Vasilyev both or Russia, I never heard about Ilya Vasilyev before, and I know MK-152 is well-know fake. You can refer to this http://mk.semico.ru/oinfo.htm This is a laboratory equipment for chemical analysis, and company CEO by someone reasons decide this is a next generation of russian electronics :) Indeed, MK-52 and MK-61 are very old programmable calculators made in USSR. MK-152 and MK-161 are emulators running on 8-bit MCU (AT89 AFAIR). There no reasons to write Forth emulator on the old calculator emulating MCU. It was a kind of little scandal, when MK-152 comes to public with very ambitious goals (btw, to replace x86 and Macbook PCs in russian schools by THIS). Well, if you search for russian forthers, you can refer to this: http://fforum.winglion.ru/ This forum was founded in 2006 by me and my friend Ivan Makarchenko (aka Winglion). Unfortunately, he is died several years ago, so I'm then only supporter now. There is no automatic registration, and 292 current users at least reads forum somewhen. (If someone want to register, he should tell his nickname after registration to my mail: hishnik7 (at) rambler.ru and I will allow his request). I contact with some russian teams interested in Forth. There are no questions to ANS committee about how to write Forth, because you point to problem clear enough - WHY their Forths has zero credibility, if they can write it and happy with it? Many programmers I know are smart enough and will not allow any kind of preaching, especially from peoples, who complaining about Forth decadence.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-14 20:31 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <080e7aed-44fc-4497-9a15-caae07f15431@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43530 |
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 6:30:40 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > четверг, 12 ноября 2015 г., 20:19:58 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал: > > BTW: I have noticed that we seem to be getting a lot of contributions from foreign countries. We have Ilya Tarasov and Ilya Vasilyev both or Russia, > > I never heard about Ilya Vasilyev before, and I know MK-152 is well-know fake. You can refer to this http://mk.semico.ru/oinfo.htm This is a laboratory equipment for chemical analysis, and company CEO by someone reasons decide this is a next generation of russian electronics :) Indeed, MK-52 and MK-61 are very old programmable calculators made in USSR. MK-152 and MK-161 are emulators running on 8-bit MCU (AT89 AFAIR). There no reasons to write Forth emulator on the old calculator emulating MCU. It was a kind of little scandal, when MK-152 comes to public with very ambitious goals (btw, to replace x86 and Macbook PCs in russian schools by THIS). I don't think "fake" is the correct word here --- possible mistranslation --- you may have been reaching for the word "overblown." The fact that Ilya Vasilyev is working on an obsolete (arguably never very useful) computer doesn't mean that his ideas about programming are necessarily bad. I worked for almost two years as an IBM370 assembly-language programmer --- the IBM370 is somewhat overblown too; IBM has stuck with it for decades, although it really represents 1960s ideas that were discredited in the 1990s --- it was my job, so I made the best of it. Anyway, Ilya Vasilyev's suggestion of making the definition of "number" implementation-dependent was good --- I'm incorporating that idea into FloatForth (I had originally intended to require the fixed-version).
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-15 14:50 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <ce88ae86-8d90-4d18-b2ed-356ea051c56a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43546 |
> > I never heard about Ilya Vasilyev before, and I know MK-152 is well-know fake. You can refer to this http://mk.semico.ru/oinfo.htm This is a laboratory > I don't think "fake" is the correct word here --- possible mistranslation --- you may have been reaching for the word "overblown." The fact that Ilya Vasilyev is working on an obsolete (arguably never very useful) computer doesn't mean that I can only tell in another words: I know the situation with MK-152. It is crude attempt to get popularity. In my opinion, hiding Forth behind this kind of hardware will lead to 'popularity through scandal'. > Anyway, Ilya Vasilyev's suggestion of making the definition of "number" implementation-dependent was good --- I'm incorporating that idea into FloatForth (I had originally intended to require the fixed-version). I'm neutral about this. Many things are possible with Forth, everyone can use it if needed. However, ideas should has internal consistency.
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| From | Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-17 05:07 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <5ed4f2d7-6bb8-43de-ab2a-7adf197cdb41@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43546 |
On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 11:31:51 PM UTC-5, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > I don't think "fake" is the correct word here --- possible mistranslation --- you may have been reaching for the word "overblown." The fact that Ilya Vasilyev is working on an obsolete (arguably never very useful) computer doesn't mean that his ideas about programming are necessarily bad. I worked for almost two years as an IBM370 assembly-language programmer --- the IBM370 is somewhat overblown too; IBM has stuck with it for decades, although it really represents 1960s ideas that were discredited in the 1990s --- it was my job, so I made the best of it. I've worked for more than thirty years on IBM/370-type hardware, and about twenty-five years of that in assembly language. It's an enormously useful platform, adopted world-wide and used for many many billions of reliable transactions per day. I don't know of a Fortune 500 company that doesn't rely on it. So maybe "overblown" is a mistranslation too. :)
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-18 22:20 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <6f229281-1d1e-42f2-a5b8-d6083666440b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43574 |
Just imagine someone build a software emulator for IBM/370, and trying to sell it as 'revolutionary product, based on proven solutions and well-know hardware platform'. No access to host hardware, you can use only emulated IBM/370 machine (even on Xeon CPU). Is it overblown, fake, or something else? Also, it is quite dangerous to use Forth in such kind of suspicious projects. Forthers may seek for some kind of non-vulnerability to critic, claiming they have an elite skill, so any critics simple explains by misunderstanding of 'Forth spirit'. This is not a good way. Solving a well-known task with Forth to demonstrate it's features is much better in a long perspective.
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| From | stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-02 09:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <56372b66.108389073@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #43048 |
On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:58:07 +0100, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: >That's one extreme, Stephen on the other end wants to have all of >his 6 different ARM Cortex M4F floating point libraries stamped as >"standard", though some are combined stack and some are separate stack >libraries, and nobody successfully wrote a non-trivial program that runs on >both variants. Actually, no. The idea of an environmental dependency is fine with me in some cases. Once we get into libraries, there will be huge dependency chains. After all, what will *you* do when a library does not use your favourite string or OOP package? Will you adapt for the common ground? Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-02 10:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2015Nov2.115114@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #43088 |
stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>Once we get into libraries, there will be huge
>dependency chains. After all, what will *you* do when a library
>does not use your favourite string or OOP package?
Then it does not use it. So what?
>Will you
>adapt for the common ground?
What are you thinking of?
If the library does something I want, I prefer to use it as-is. If it
needs a string or OOP package, then, it should REQUIRE them (and
either package them or be uploaded to theforth.net and specify a
dependency on them). I do not want to have to change it at all, not
even a single line, because I want to be able to download it on
various machines and run it on various systems without jumping through
hoops every time, however easy you might consider that.
If I need another string and OOP package for my program, I include
that, too. Not very much in the spirit of Chuck Moore, but so are
libraries.
This has nothing to do with non-standardization of whether the stack
is combined or separate. If a library relies on a separate stack, it
won't run on a system with a combined stack.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-02 14:37 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <n17orh$1cd$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #43088 |
Stephen Pelc wrote: > On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:58:07 +0100, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> > wrote: > >>That's one extreme, Stephen on the other end wants to have all of >>his 6 different ARM Cortex M4F floating point libraries stamped as >>"standard", though some are combined stack and some are separate stack >>libraries, and nobody successfully wrote a non-trivial program that runs >>on both variants. > > Actually, no. The idea of an environmental dependency is fine with me > in some cases. Once we get into libraries, there will be huge > dependency chains. After all, what will *you* do when a library > does not use your favourite string or OOP package? Will you > adapt for the common ground? No, why? Is there a conflict? Libraries should use addr u to pass strings in and out, regardless of how they internally deal with strings. For OOP, there's often a higher level of dependency: if you want to use MINOS, you have to use BerndOOF - for the GUI part of your application, which is often separate from the rest, and you can use another OOP package there. I know, you critizied me for my way of porting MINOS to VFX, which was done by getting VFX up so that it could compile MINOS, instead of dumbing MINOS down to work with the broken things in VFX. The changes AFAIK affected at least the source inliner (buggy, replaced by the tokenizer) and the extern: interface (deal with float arguments on the FP stack). That, as you said, would mean the next port of MINOS will not be any easier, though the first part with the tokenizer probably doesn't apply to any other Forth. Yes. But the next port of any other program to VFX will be easier. Common ground is not necessarily low ground. If you want to have common ground low ground, you don't do your job properly. You are providing a service to programmers by writing a system. It's not that we, as programmers, should provide you a service by making our programs compatible with your bugs, idiosyncracies, and lacks of features by spending more effort to e.g. use a substandard, ill-conceived OOP package unfit for the task, which you think is "common ground". The reason why we have so many OOP packages in Forth is that they are all so bad. Each of them only covers some aspects of OOP, and the users are like the blind men and the elephant, so each OOP package covers only the aspect they want to use. OOP packages should be able to coexist with each other, and probably should use common primitives to manipulate things like the current object. You might want to swap the dot parsers in and out depending on which OOP package you use in which part of your program. That's why the dot-parser of Mini- OOF2 is not called rec:dot-parser, but rec:moof2. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | franck.bensusan@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-02 23:20 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <ab4d80a9-f105-4a65-ab0b-cf374d668cca@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43106 |
Le lundi 2 novembre 2015 14:37:59 UTC+1, Bernd Paysan a écrit : > > OOP packages should be able to coexist with each other, and probably should > use common primitives to manipulate things like the current object. You > might want to swap the dot parsers in and out depending on which OOP package > you use in which part of your program. That's why the dot-parser of Mini- > OOF2 is not called rec:dot-parser, but rec:moof2. > > -- > Bernd Paysan > "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" > net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* > http://bernd-paysan.de/ Hello, Sorry if this is a known concept but what is this "current object" thing used by all OOP extensions ? Is it the object on top of the data stack ? If so, I'am a little puzzled by "manipulating the current object". If not, well, I don't understand this concept... Franck
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| From | Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-03 10:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <563885e3$0$23729$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #43156 |
franck.bensusan@gmail.com writes: >Le lundi 2 novembre 2015 14:37:59 UTC+1, Bernd Paysan a =E9crit=A0: >>=20 >> OOP packages should be able to coexist with each other, and probably shou= >ld=20 >> use common primitives to manipulate things like the current object. You= >=20 >> might want to swap the dot parsers in and out depending on which OOP pack= >age=20 >> you use in which part of your program. That's why the dot-parser of Mini= >- >> OOF2 is not called rec:dot-parser, but rec:moof2. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Bernd Paysan >> "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" >> net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=3Duy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* >> http://bernd-paysan.de/ >Hello, >Sorry if this is a known concept but what is this "current object" thing us= >ed >by all OOP extensions ?=20 >Is it the object on top of the data stack ? If so, I'am a little >puzzled by "manipulating the current object". >If not, well, I don't understand this concept... Well, I can tell you how it is in my micro OOP You can access the fiethods (my classes don't make a distinction between fields and methods) of the current object directly, without the need to specify that object. (Like ``with'' in Pascal). Then, of course, you need a means to change the current object. That is done by using (calling) it. Like so. The class Point has no fields, only getters and setters (x y x! y! ) Point upper-left-corner Point upper-right-corner upper-right-corner 12 13 y! x! \ refers to urc x . y . \ gives 12 13 upper-right-corner ( -- ) \ made current x y ( -- n n ) \ of upper-right-corner lower-left-corner ( -- ) \ made current y! x! ( n n -- ) \ Squeezed empty, by copying coordinates from urc to llc. Hope this helps. >Franck -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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