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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #42092 > unrolled thread
| Started by | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-09-20 08:45 +0000 |
| Last post | 2015-11-09 13:21 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 191 — 29 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-20 08:45 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 06:34 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-09-21 20:11 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2015-09-23 11:29 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-09-23 21:03 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 03:02 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 01:13 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-21 09:26 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-03 03:46 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-03 22:56 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 02:44 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-04 01:14 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 05:08 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-04 04:06 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-10-04 07:25 -0500
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-04 06:49 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 09:21 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-09 13:24 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-08 22:18 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:59 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 04:24 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 05:08 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 13:57 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 13:36 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-08 13:50 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-10 12:10 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-08 18:10 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-10 14:10 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-10 23:12 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-10-12 10:18 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 14:02 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-12 08:03 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-12 14:58 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-10-13 01:25 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-12 17:38 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-12 16:39 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-10 19:12 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 07:31 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-17 22:44 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-17 21:47 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-18 01:51 -0400
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-17 20:26 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-18 21:34 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-19 17:00 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-20 01:51 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-19 16:24 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-20 02:44 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-20 13:01 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-20 22:59 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-20 23:57 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-21 10:58 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-11-11 14:06 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-11 14:48 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 14:59 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 05:28 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 18:18 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-11-11 15:12 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 05:35 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-11-12 06:24 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-11-12 14:44 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 15:18 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-20 12:36 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-18 12:54 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-19 02:47 +0200
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 07:24 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 15:10 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 09:15 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-02 20:35 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 17:30 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-13 19:36 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 23:54 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 00:04 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 00:09 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-14 09:45 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 14:54 +0300
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 10:13 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-28 11:38 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 22:03 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-31 02:10 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 02:50 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 18:58 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-31 14:18 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 23:43 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-11-07 10:44 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-07 23:02 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-31 14:48 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 01:03 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 01:44 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 01:59 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 02:19 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-02 17:32 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 02:14 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 12:10 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-02 16:45 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 10:26 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 02:57 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 16:06 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 09:36 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-02 21:18 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 11:56 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 18:16 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 10:53 +0000
16-bit Forth for Linux Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-20 11:13 +0100
Re: 16-bit Forth for Linux Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-20 15:08 +0000
Re: 16-bit Forth for Linux Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-20 20:11 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 11:10 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 12:43 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-11-03 03:05 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 11:11 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-11-03 03:07 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 11:15 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 12:18 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 12:07 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-02 15:41 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-02 20:27 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 11:00 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 11:28 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 12:18 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 17:03 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 19:29 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 14:47 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-04 21:15 -0500
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-11-05 03:19 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-04 16:37 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 20:54 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-05 06:32 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-04 21:17 -0500
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-04 16:44 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-05 01:24 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-05 14:50 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 12:49 -0800
CMFORTH Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-06 08:43 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-11-02 10:46 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 05:52 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 14:52 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 08:06 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 08:32 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-02 20:04 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 22:31 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 18:49 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 12:24 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 19:45 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-03 22:30 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 10:42 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-04 14:08 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-04 14:07 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 14:34 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-04 17:32 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-05 23:00 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-06 07:27 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-06 22:04 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-07 16:07 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-04 13:58 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-04 15:04 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-04 14:30 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 11:57 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-04 12:06 -1000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 14:53 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 14:44 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-08 00:02 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 15:22 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-09 01:15 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 17:06 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-08 22:12 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 16:17 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-11 02:57 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-10 19:56 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 10:13 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-12 01:53 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 09:19 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 17:30 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-14 20:31 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-15 14:50 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 05:07 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 22:20 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-02 09:27 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 10:51 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-02 14:37 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-02 23:20 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 10:01 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 02:30 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-03 18:08 +0000
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 06:05 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-03 19:35 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 12:27 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-03 22:37 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 14:39 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-11-04 14:54 +0100
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 06:21 -0800
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-31 15:00 -0700
Re: EuroForth 2015 paper deadline approaching Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 13:21 -0800
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-11 15:18 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <877florupi.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #43477 |
JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes: > America is not interested in Forth anymore it seems, as there is no > American-Forth event where these issues are discussed at all. There is SVFIG (Forth day is coming up this month) and there's now some kind of FIG on the east coast. So there are Forth users here. I don't know what's happening on the standardization scene, but Forth Inc. is of course in California.
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 12:36 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2015Oct20.143607@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #42706 |
stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>And yes, Willem
>was there and as usual, nobody had the decency to ask for his opinion.
Nobody had the decency to ask for your or my opinion, either. In such
meetings, if you have an opinion on an issue, you don't wait until
somebody says "What's your opinion, Stephen?", you just speak up.
>Adding recognisers just to satisfy a WIBNI (Wouldn't It Be Nice If)
>just isn't good enough to justify the effort, especially for those
>whose systems already include the desired functionality.
So, there are systems that include "the desired functionality"
(whatever that may be), presumably for an application need, but adding
a features that allows implementing that functionality as a standard
Forth program is a WIBNI feature IYO?
That reaffirms my impression that you say "WIBNI" whenever you are
against something, but have no substantive argument.
>>We have also the different position between the vendors and the community
>>what the standard should achive: the original ANS Forth approach is to allow
>>many different implementations and document the resulting dependencies; the
>>community side wants a standard where you write a non-trivial Forth program
>>on one system and it works on another, because it does not have to use
>>system-specific extensions.
>
>Then standardise the functionality of such extensions first.
Yes, that's what most proposals are about. But when someone makes
such a proposal, you often say "WIBNI".
>It may well point out
>where further standardisation is necessary. For example, my point that
>Forth has only one indicator to say that a word is split into two
>parts, DOES> has been avoided by the use of quotations, which is a
>much uglier notation than (say) you LIST> notation.
I have trouble parsing this sentence.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/
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| From | JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-18 12:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a7f37672-100c-4cf5-a917-04acf108d479@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42689 |
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 9:44:43 PM UTC+1, Bernd Paysan wrote: > JUERGEN wrote: > > This was my starting point of decoupling commercial and other. > > You can do anything in Forth - if the 2 main suppliers set a standard - > > others can use it or not - for them nothing changes. > > Well, they then can only follow, and not contribute. I find it rather > bizarre that you first mention the experience of an open group which > accepted your input, and then you suggest that you want two benevolent > dictators of your choice. Then it's no longer open, but an exclusive club > of Steven and Leon. > > In the single-implementation languages, you often have such a benevolent > dictator. However, it's typically free software, and not some commercial > vendor, and the benevolent dictator is followed, because he created the > language in the first place. In a few cases, like Java, and the development > environments for Apple and Microsoft, it is a commercial vendor, but a big > one, with lots of brainwashing of the user base. > > Actually, what you propose is what Hugh is accusing the committee: that the > people there are just sock puppets of the vendors. In fact, the committee > is set up of users and free and commercial system implementers, and that's a > good thing. Standards created by only a subset of those who are interested > don't get traction. > > -- > Bernd Paysan > "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" > net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* > http://bernd-paysan.de/ Sorry Bernd, what you stating is bullshit. Please put your reading glasses on and read my suggestions again. I suggested options having been at the meeting that you did not attend.
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 02:47 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <n01ee8$urp$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #42696 |
JUERGEN wrote: > Sorry Bernd, what you stating is bullshit. > Please put your reading glasses on and read my suggestions again. Apparently you confuse Hugh with the community, and the standard team with Stephen+Leon as commercial vendors, and the other people are just sock puppets... That's actually what Hugh says, and like many things he says, it is simply wrong. > I suggested options having been at the meeting that you did not attend. You make it sound like I don't know what these meetings are like, and you do (despite I've attended most of these meetings, and you just one). I did not attend this meeting for a) price too high and b) directly collided with my gf's little holiday. b) was strong enough that even if a) wouldn't be that way, b) would have won, but a) made the decision considerably easier. The only difference between this meeting and the others is that I wasn't there. Maybe then the meetings look like only the commercial vendors say something ;-). -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ* http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-08 07:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c89ece70-8725-474b-a2b0-fa98b6706df0@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42449 |
On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 8:26:43 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote: > JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes: > >My summary is very simple: > >Change the name to Commercial Forth Language Definitions rather than ANS Forth. > > It is called "Forth Standard 2012", and it does not just reflect > commercial systems and commercial programmers. > > >PS: there was a very nice presentation about comparing Forth to Python > >and how changes / modifications are handled: > > > >Every suggestion is allowed and can be discussed > >One person decides - the owner of Python > > You can have the same thing in Forth, actually in each Forth system. > Buy iForth, and one person decides what gets in. Or buy VFX, and one > person decides. Or buy SwiftForth, and one person has the final say. > Or get colorForth, where one person decides; or Reva or RetroForth > etc. > > One difference from Python is that in Python one implementation > dominates, while in Forth there is no dominating implementation. > Another difference is that Python has lots of libraries and programs > that are shared among programmers while in Forth there are few. > > These two differences are connected: Because there are few portable > Forth programs, there are few incentives for systems to converge. And > because systems are so different and the standard is weak, few > programs and libraries are written to be portable. Plus there is an > anti-library attitude frequently advocated in Forth, while the > attitude in Python is quite pro-libraries. > > [Benevolent dictator] > >I suggest the same for Forth - but 2 people - Steve and Leon - alternating year by year. > > It seems that they think that that won't fly, or they would have gone > that way already. > > - anton > -- > M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html > comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html > New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html > EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/ Anton it seems you did not follow my thought process, so I assume repeating it will not help as the contents will be the same. I do know what exists ( mostly ). I do know as well that the relevant owners of their product decide. Compare the success of python with the status of Forth - libraries and standards I was intentionally decoupling the commercial and the rest of the Forth community. Well it seems no libraries then.
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-08 15:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2015Oct8.171020@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #42458 |
JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
>Compare the success of python with the status of Forth - libraries and standards
My point was that, if we take the Python approach, we don't need a
Forth standard to get libraries, it's the other way round: If you want
to write a library, you select the benevolent dictator you want to
follow, and write a library for his system. And if one system gets a
lot of libraries, that many people want to use, then the other systems
have a good incentive to be compatible with that system. That's how
it works in Python: CPython dominates, the others follow.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/
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| From | JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-08 09:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <52792670-d3a0-42af-9d3f-edcd504990f9@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42461 |
On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 4:17:35 PM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote: > JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes: > >Compare the success of python with the status of Forth - libraries and standards > > My point was that, if we take the Python approach, we don't need a > Forth standard to get libraries, it's the other way round: If you want > to write a library, you select the benevolent dictator you want to > follow, and write a library for his system. And if one system gets a > lot of libraries, that many people want to use, then the other systems > have a good incentive to be compatible with that system. That's how > it works in Python: CPython dominates, the others follow. > > - anton > -- > M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html > comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html > New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html > EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/ If this is a possible way forward you see best - fine for me - a lot better than no way forward. I still do not see a contradiction to the Forth standard. BUT there needs to be activity of the Compiler supplier that the structure is there in place to add them in. I had preferred the joint approach as it would have included both parts of the Forth world - but you are part of this group for a lot longer ...
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| From | "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-11-02 20:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n18he5$8kn$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #42336 |
JUERGEN wrote: > A standard is by definition never as good as an > optimized implementation - if you do not want to be > compatible - just don't and live with the optimized > version. If you have valuable input do it. And if you > do not understand what a standard is - well ... > > It was quite a different experience to see this work > compared to wasting my time on a thread here this > morning where a lot of people just rant - but seem not > to have had read the standard and the open options. > > And the thread started very positively by > somebody new to Forth. It probably reflects > the way they will treat a new colleague > starting at their employer. > > My summary is very simple: Change the name > to Commercial Forth Language Definitions > rather than ANS Forth. Let's read between the lines and figure out what he's really saying. Ruby: "A standard is by definition never as good as an optimized implementation - if you do not want to be compatible - just don't and live with the optimized version. If you have valuable input do it. And if you do not understand what a standard is - well ... It was quite a different experience to see this work compared to wasting my time on a thread here this morning where a lot of people just rant - but seem not to have had read the standard and the open options. And the thread started very positively by somebody new to Forth. It probably reflects the way they will treat a new colleague starting at their employer. My summary is very simple: Change the name to Commercial Forth Language Definitions rather than ANS Forth.".scan(/\w+/).grep(/[aeo]/i).values_at(107,108,36,3,5). join " " ===> "ANS Forth was never good" -- For two years ... he was held in solitary confinement in the Toronto West Detention Centre, on the pretext that he is a threat to national security.... [A] court in Mannheim sentenced him to five years imprisonment for the crime of "popular incitement" under Germany's notorious "Holocaust denial" statute. http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/zundel.html
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-13 17:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c5e81e8f-0ed9-4022-9116-f59b29b075e6@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42092 |
This is very interesting situation indeed. Looks like 'cargo cult' :) One language has strong leader, large community and plenty of libraries. There are conferencies also. 'Let's orgnanize a conference and invite a strong leader, and Forth will be mainstream language!'. I think it is a completely wrong way. Can I write Python? No, even if I know how to do it, I prefer to use existing solution instead. I will save a lot of time to write and debug code, and, more important, to develop architecture of ma language. But also I must agrees to some rules, internal limitations, library interfaces etc. This is a pack of trade-offs to accept or not to accept. Anoone can choose another language with a different set of features and things to accept. Can I write Forth? YEEEEAAAHHH! :) Should I accept anything from Forth community? No, thanks for your effort, I can choose a set of approaches and programming technologies to combine my own tool. The core is enormous simple to be created by programmer with average skills. Parts of Forth are not heavily entangled and can be 'unplugged'. Having a set of libraries is a bonus, but not critical for programming. What can I see from community? 'We just implement a pretty new BLUP word and improve performance of KGYT word by 1.234%, so we want you to be a member of our team of library-writers-for-free'. 'We suggest you to come to conference and listen how to become a member of a team of library-writers-for-free'. No, thanks. If you want to miss you customers, this is an effective way. Btw, who is a customer of Forth products? A complete newbie, which is not able to write a simple program and requires a help with basic algorithms? How it is possible to wait for real output from this kind of customer? Repeat your list of suggested Forth words ten times more and only complete newbies with no skills to create a list of such kind will stay around. I was especially impressed by dividing articles on 'scientific' and 'commercial'. This is a symptom of some kind of escapism. 'Let commercial peoples do their dirty work for money and leave us pure and full of clear science' :) Any science project must assume a real output in the future. This may be delayed for years, but there is no pure science just for fun. See 'Russell's teapot' to avoid useless generating of 'right Forths'. I don't yet know what to do to change situation fundamentally. I'm not sure I must apply a significant efforts to convince someone who not to be convinced. Great thanks to Moore for publishing some basic things to understand how to lead this way. Also thanks some politics for laying sanctions on Russia! :))) I have enormous amount of requests from russian companies for replacing electronic devices (made in USA, Germany, Canada so far, but I think this is not a complete list), even from commercial companies which are not a subjects of sanctions. Having Forth skills as a technology, I'm very optimistic on implement all of this :)
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-13 19:36 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f5d93730-2b95-4832-9808-a6b580ea2b8d@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42629 |
On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 5:30:55 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > This is very interesting situation indeed. Looks like 'cargo cult' :) One language has strong leader, large community and plenty of libraries. There are conferencies also. 'Let's orgnanize a conference and invite a strong leader, and Forth will be mainstream language!'. I think it is a completely wrong way. > > Can I write Python? No, even if I know how to do it, I prefer to use existing solution instead. I will save a lot of time to write and debug code, and, more important, to develop architecture of ma language. But also I must agrees to some rules, internal limitations, library interfaces etc. This is a pack of trade-offs to accept or not to accept. Anoone can choose another language with a different set of features and things to accept. > > Can I write Forth? YEEEEAAAHHH! :) Should I accept anything from Forth community? No, thanks for your effort, I can choose a set of approaches and programming technologies to combine my own tool. The core is enormous simple to be created by programmer with average skills. Parts of Forth are not heavily entangled and can be 'unplugged'. Having a set of libraries is a bonus, but not critical for programming. > > What can I see from community? 'We just implement a pretty new BLUP word and improve performance of KGYT word by 1.234%, so we want you to be a member of our team of library-writers-for-free'. 'We suggest you to come to conference and listen how to become a member of a team of library-writers-for-free'. No, thanks. If you want to miss you customers, this is an effective way. Btw, who is a customer of Forth products? A complete newbie, which is not able to write a simple program and requires a help with basic algorithms? How it is possible to wait for real output from this kind of customer? Repeat your list of suggested Forth words ten times more and only complete newbies with no skills to create a list of such kind will stay around. > > I was especially impressed by dividing articles on 'scientific' and 'commercial'. This is a symptom of some kind of escapism. 'Let commercial peoples do their dirty work for money and leave us pure and full of clear science' :) Any science project must assume a real output in the future. This may be delayed for years, but there is no pure science just for fun. See 'Russell's teapot' to avoid useless generating of 'right Forths'. > > I don't yet know what to do to change situation fundamentally. I'm not sure I must apply a significant efforts to convince someone who not to be convinced. Great thanks to Moore for publishing some basic things to understand how to lead this way. Also thanks some politics for laying sanctions on Russia! :))) I have enormous amount of requests from russian companies for replacing electronic devices (made in USA, Germany, Canada so far, but I think this is not a complete list), even from commercial companies which are not a subjects of sanctions. Having Forth skills as a technology, I'm very optimistic on implement all of this :) Your post was confusing to me. Some of this may be that your translation into English came out muddled. There is no "team of library-writers-for-free" that people are being invited to join. The problem is exactly the opposite, that Forth programmers are being discouraged from writing libraries by the leadership --- this tends to restrict Forth to being a toy language and not being used for commercial work (commercial operations don't have the time to write every program from scratch). I agree with this: "I can choose a set of approaches and programming technologies to combine my own tool. The core is enormous simple to be created by programmer with average skills. Parts of Forth are not heavily entangled and can be 'unplugged'. Having a set of libraries is a bonus, but not critical for programming." Here you seem to be saying that the basic concepts of Forth are good, and can be successfully applied to new cutting-edge technology if there is no concern for compatibility getting in the way. This is what happened with the MiniForth. We wouldn't have succeeded if we had made it our goal to be compatible with Forth-83 or ANS-Forth, but we had to just do what worked for the hardware without concern for standard-compatibility issues. This is an unusual circumstance however, as most commercial operations are not using cutting-edge technology, but are just trying to be more efficient than their neighbor using mainstream technology such as the ARM Cortex --- in this case, code-libraries help a lot to make them more efficient in cranking out programs.
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| From | lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-13 23:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9692e778-d022-443b-af13-d8371319d9b7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42629 |
I think all activities in Forth is interesting and may be (or not be) important for the future of Forth. That is, all constructive activities! All meticulous entrepreneurn, normally not of interest for normal forthers, is gold worth in a longer perspective since it governs a development and prohibit the Forth society to repeat the same misstakes over and over again. And all different implementations of more or less standard forths on different os and processors doesn't split Forth but examine the possible technics for the future. I guess that you are that Ilya that is involved in the development of the super-optimized sp-forth, which may be worth to study for those who will make efficient implementations. The question of standards and libraries is interesting. Since I'm a non commercial entusiast I mostly prefer to enjoy coding my own routines, but if I was a Forth entreprenour of some kind, entusiastic or not, I would like some kind of systematic collection of source- or precompiled code to examine now and then. I don´t believe that Forth is ruled by leaders. Charles Moore created Forth but has to witness how it develops in it´s own ways. Since Forth is a good idea, that maybe not yet has settle down, there is good hope for the future. And I can´t imagine a better tool for making commercial applications even today.
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| From | lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-14 00:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <90f905bc-6520-4b62-93df-864b0ae56a2e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42629 |
I think all activities in Forth is interesting and may be (or not be) important for the future of Forth. That is, all constructive activities! All meticulous documentations, normally not of interest for normal forthers, is gold worth in a longer perspective since it governs a development and prohibit the Forth society to repeat the same misstakes over and over again. And all different implementations of more or less standard forths on different os and processors doesn't split Forth but examine the possible technics for the future. I guess that you are that Ilya that is involved in the development of the super-optimized sp-forth, which may be worth to study for those who will make efficient implementations. The question of standards and libraries is interesting. Since I'm a non commercial entusiast I mostly prefer to enjoy coding my own routines, but if I was a Forth entreprenour of some kind, entusiastic or not, I would like some kind of systematic collection of source- or precompiled code to examine now and then. I don´t believe that Forth is ruled by leaders. Charles Moore created Forth but has to witness how it develops in it´s own ways. Since Forth is a good idea, that maybe not yet has settle down, there is good hope for the future. And I can´t imagine a better tool for making commercial applications even today.
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| From | lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-14 00:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <306ff4a2-ab23-4ba2-b1bb-c5757d11149d@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42629 |
I think all activities in Forth is interesting and may be (or not be) important for the future of Forth. That is, all constructive activities! All meticulous documentations, normally not of interest for normal forthers, is gold worth in a longer perspective since it governs a development and prohibit the Forth society to repeat the same misstakes over and over again. And all different implementations of more or less standard forths on different os and processors doesn't split Forth but examine the possible technics for the future. I guess that you are that Ilya that is involved in the development of the super-optimized sp-forth, which may be worth to study for those who will make efficient implementations. The question of standards and libraries is interesting. Since I'm a non commercial entusiast I mostly prefer to enjoy coding my own routines, but if I was a Forth entreprenour of some kind, entusiastic or not, I would like some kind of systematic collection of source- or precompiled code to examine now and then. I don´t believe that Forth is ruled by leaders. Charles Moore created Forth but has to witness how it develops in it´s own ways. Since Forth is a good idea, that maybe not yet has settle down, there is good hope for the future. And I can´t imagine a better tool for making commercial applications even today.
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-14 09:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2015Oct14.114535@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #42629 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> writes:
>I was especially impressed by dividing articles on 'scientific' and 'commer=
>cial'. This is a symptom of some kind of escapism. 'Let commercial peoples=
> do their dirty work for money and leave us pure and full of clear science'
If you are thinking about EuroForth's academic and industrial streams,
the difference is that the academic stream papers are refereed and the
industrial stream papers are not. That's because it's revelant to
academics whether papers are refereed, while industry people don't
care about that, and prefer a later deadline.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/
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| From | Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-14 14:54 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <mvlfmi$1gv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #42638 |
On 14.10.2015 12:45, Anton Ertl wrote: > If you are thinking about EuroForth's academic and industrial streams, > the difference is that the academic stream papers are refereed and the > industrial stream papers are not. That's because it's revelant to > academics whether papers are refereed, while industry people don't > care about that, and prefer a later deadline. And also some papers don't make sense as published commercially, while academic papers might be most interesting. I think deadlines have fulfilled their purpose and made the swooshing sound as they pass by. Are the papers coming soon online? Hannu Vuolasaho
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| From | Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 10:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <dc882dd7-8576-4d64-b749-31df21dcdfc3@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42629 |
On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 5:30:55 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > This is very interesting situation indeed. Looks like 'cargo cult' :) One language has strong leader, large community and plenty of libraries. There are conferencies also. 'Let's orgnanize a conference and invite a strong leader, and Forth will be mainstream language!'. I think it is a completely wrong way. You might be onto something. Chuck is and was a cowboy. Cowboys hate fences. ANS is a fence, built to corral programmers (at least in the view of cowboys) which is why Chuck walked out of the ANS standard committee. He couldn't stand building fences. So 20 years on, we have the corraled joining together to patch up the fence. But it's a nice fence. If you're trying to do business, you need a fence to scale things up. Your own custom fences (that you tear down and rebuild from time to time) might suit you better than the ANS fences. Does Chuck have more to teach us? I hope so, but I think these days his lessons are more a cautionary tale. I'm very grateful to him for coming up with Forth. The real problem is that even after 40 years, Forth is still ahead of its time. The perception hasn't really caught up. To say that Forth is a language is to put up a semantic fence. There is a deeper meaning in all of this, in the Zen tradition. It goes to the heart of what life is on a holistic level because the creative process is an organic synergy of imagination and real world experience. Thanks to Chuck's scientific background, he knew the value of proof. You get an idea, then you prove it. He hammered on his ideas ad infinitum, relentless in his pursuit of simplicity and realism. This makes Forth unique in the world of language because other "languages" are creations of an imagination. Once the form of a language is cast, it's cast. Forth has no form. That's its whole point. Form is a projection of ego. Notice how far Chuck went in trying to convey this formlessness. Formlessness is the lack of artificial constraints on creativity. So, Forth honors creativity and what it means to be creative in a way that no other language does. It has a modest entry fee: Check your ego at the door and learn to walk again. Forth is the foundation of the language (a lexicon) you use to talk to your creation, a synergy between your creative self and the object of your creation. Other languages can get you there (kind of) but they come at the problem from the wrong direction. But back to those fences, I think Chuck demonstrated that you do need fences to be successful. The question of "Whose Fences?" is another topic entirely.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 11:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e3d97c92-481c-4a0a-a1fd-ceb1d8af965c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42908 |
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 10:13:31 AM UTC-7, Brad Eckert wrote: > But back to those fences, I think Chuck demonstrated that you do need fences to be successful. The question of "Whose Fences?" is another topic entirely. I'm not opposed to there being a standard --- I'm opposed to ANS-Forth because it was written by a sales-person and pushed through ANSI without being tested and hence was full of inconsistencies, ambiguities and general idiocy --- if we had had a good standard in 1983 or even 1994 then Forth could have succeeded. There may still be time to save Forth from Elizabeth Rather --- I'm putting together a standard --- 20 years too late, but what the heck...
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| From | Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-30 22:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <998d0f99-93b4-4d44-ba3a-6d96cb2b91d1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #42920 |
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 11:38:59 AM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > There may still be time to save Forth from Elizabeth Rather --- I'm putting together a standard --- 20 years too late, but what the heck... Having never met Elizabeth, but being a little familiar with the Forth vendors, it seems that making money is high on their priority list. But being a business is like that and Liz had her job. I assume that as a woman she closely identified with her culture, and the rest followed. Sure, we guys don't fully understand that but that characteristic of women is the stability that keeps society from going sideways. It may also be the thing that killed Forth. Putting up the fences necessary to do Forth in the commercial manner envisioned (which included a lot of "me too" thinking -- gotta keep the customers happy) took the fun out of Forth. Fun was (is) really Forth's big thing. Keep it light, breezy and simple. Here's my suggestion. Come up with a fun, simple Forth that people like. People wanted to do colorForth but it was too out-there with no supportive infrastructure. That's not to say it can't be adapted to a wider audience. Maybe it should be targeted at the embedded crowd and a nice interactive GUI built. Decent support for integration with C environments would solve any performance issues.
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| From | JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-31 02:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9a8983c2-20ad-4538-852e-ca7bee0cb9a3@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43017 |
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 5:03:04 AM UTC, Brad Eckert wrote: > On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 11:38:59 AM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > > There may still be time to save Forth from Elizabeth Rather --- I'm putting together a standard --- 20 years too late, but what the heck... > > Having never met Elizabeth, but being a little familiar with the Forth vendors, it seems that making money is high on their priority list. But being a business is like that and Liz had her job. I assume that as a woman she closely identified with her culture, and the rest followed. Sure, we guys don't fully understand that but that characteristic of women is the stability that keeps society from going sideways. It may also be the thing that killed Forth. > > Putting up the fences necessary to do Forth in the commercial manner envisioned (which included a lot of "me too" thinking -- gotta keep the customers happy) took the fun out of Forth. Fun was (is) really Forth's big thing. Keep it light, breezy and simple. > > Here's my suggestion. Come up with a fun, simple Forth that people like. People wanted to do colorForth but it was too out-there with no supportive infrastructure. That's not to say it can't be adapted to a wider audience. Maybe it should be targeted at the embedded crowd and a nice interactive GUI built. Decent support for integration with C environments would solve any performance issues. I wanted to start a discussion - nothing more. And stop the myth that the standards meeting is a secret circle. It is nice to see that my view triggered such a lively communication. But I have to clarify as it seems to be misinterpreted: I never suggested the vendors dominate Forth. They should be able to take their own business decisions if they want, including how the product works. And if both think together to take a slightly different route - it is for their requirements and Forth as a language. Even now there are probably 100 variants and nobody knows how much or if there is any compatibility or wanted. At least with my view the difference would be between one extreme - the hobbyists to the other extreme - the vendors. All aspects are fine - but not necessarily advantageous for the development and success of Forth. Look at all the language comparisons - mostly Forth is not even mentioned. So we are talking noise level here. Buridan's ass - and please Google it before you comment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass but in Forth there are probably 100+ pulling in their own direction, so all of the energy is spent pulling in different directions - not moving forward. So the center actually does not move much. Only the vendors know what the market wants - they get the feedback. Which is very different from the different Forth people who have their own opinion. Another way of looking at it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion And all these points about vendor lock in and similar. With the co-operation of ALL OF THE FORTH VENDORS I would assume that is a myth. Americans buy over there - Europeans buy over here - reduces communication traveling and timezone cost. Especially here I can see that some Forthers should stick to programming. And if there were no vendors - Forth would be dead. Bullshit to accuse them for wanting to make money - this is their only way to survive - none of them live on the Bahamas and have the big Yacht. - and all of you want to make as much money as you can I assume except for the few. Unfortunately to say that in the past there were as well controllers with Forth on it and people were impressed - now there is a GA144 - and unfortunately nobody knows about usage in applications or any volumes it is used in.
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-31 02:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0b899637-eb32-4464-acc9-fdfc1b520774@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #43028 |
> but in Forth there are probably 100+ pulling in their own direction, so all of the energy is spent pulling in different directions - not moving forward. So the center actually does not move much. Only the vendors know what the market wants - they get the feedback. Which is very different from the different Forth people who have their own opinion. So the vendors know what "forward" is supposed to be, and the 100+ are just pulling in the wrong directions... Ok. Let's suppose that the vendors know that from the market feedback (the normal case). If the market is so strong that made the vendors firmly believe what the "forward" is, then the 100+ are not very interesting in fact, and they are neglijible. So, why do you care of what they are doing? OTOH, if the market is 10+, we have a problem here. You desperately need the 100+ to bring more customers to the party (not necessarly them, maybe others - we speak about a community here) but you just want them to follow the 10+, which is a contradiction. I'm just sayin' I don't know how big the market is, all I know is what you said, forth is in the noise margin in 2015. Who's to blame, the 100+? At least they didn't give up entirely and wanted to continue somehow.
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