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Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae

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  Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-11-13 14:09 -0800
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-13 19:19 -0800
      Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-11-13 20:11 -0800
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-13 20:22 -0800
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-11-14 02:48 -0800
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Forth Wright <forthwrightly@spritely.net> - 2014-11-14 11:05 +0000
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae november.nihal@gmail.com - 2014-11-14 09:27 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-11-14 16:11 -0300
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-14 21:34 -0500
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-11-15 06:13 -0300
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw Rolf Schroedter <rolf.schroedter@dlr.de> - 2014-11-18 10:30 +0100
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-14 12:26 -0800
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-11-14 13:04 -0800
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-11-15 01:27 -0800
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-14 07:46 -1000
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-14 21:44 -0800
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-15 13:00 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-16 00:15 -0500
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-13 23:33 -0500
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-11-14 08:42 -0800
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-11-15 03:16 +0000
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae ratiovsh@gmail.com - 2014-11-18 09:45 -0800
      Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-19 08:03 -0800
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-11-19 16:49 +0000
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-19 17:58 -0800
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-20 04:21 -0500
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-20 11:04 -0800
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-20 11:18 -0800
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-20 19:43 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-21 19:56 -0500
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-20 22:29 -0500
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-20 22:49 -0500
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-11-21 02:01 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-21 16:38 -0800
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-21 20:31 -0500
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-11-22 11:30 -0800
                      Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-22 14:52 -0500
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-23 05:02 -0600
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-21 19:43 -0500
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-11-22 01:33 +0100
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-19 18:12 +0100
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-11-19 16:42 -0300
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-19 16:12 -0500

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#34394 — Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae

Just for your info.
One aplication where Forth showed what it can do

Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software
From steering telescopes to steering Philae
Intersil's RTX processors and Forth software controlled the successful Philae landing

Southampton, UK - 13 November 2014 - A proud Forth Community knows that these niche processors and niche languages are sometimes the only choice, and others will re-look at Forth and it's capabilities now again.
MPE can announce, that MPE Compilers were used on this project.
It was Intersil RTX Processors running some Forth in hardware, and the Forth programming language that made it happen. Goo processor architectures do not die - they just convert into IP, and MPE can still supply the RTX2000 IP today together with the compiler Tools.
Intersil's RTX processors made sure the landing on the asteroid was successful. And up to 10 of them are working now in the Philae controlling the systems to gather data about the comet.
One additional point for using this processor was the availability in radhard - but this was the reason for Intersil to manufacture it in the first place - why else have it in radhard.
The Forth language was used to program them. A language very close to "radhard software", as the interactive programming structure combining smaller words into larger phrases speeds up programming and makes debugging easier. Certifying code is eased as well, as this language fits nicely into structure of the code. It is like writing a book: first there are letters - Machine Code, then Forth, then words combine these and combine as well words to new words and phrases. When the book is finished, the application is ready.
And the RTX is still available - some versions difficult to get but the IP in VHDL for FPGA is available from MPE today - and used in special applications.
For the inventor of Forth this landing must be quite satisfying, as he was involved in many ways: 
Chuck Moore designed Forth about 45 years ago to control large telescopes as the tools available were not good enough for him.
Chuck Moore designed the Novix chip to improve speed by putting Forth words in silicon - improving speed and reducing current consumption at the same time.
Chuck Moore's Novix chip, then adapted and manufactured a series of RTX processors in radhard technology by Intersil.
And now the landing on Philae using his technology. He must be very proud about this achievement, now on his new venture with a 144 Multicore Forth processor.
We at MPE can only salute the Rosetta all the people involved and make the IP of the RTX2000 available for projects - used in FPGAs today.

END
About MPE Microprocessor Engineering
MPE is a privately held company based in Southampton UK, founded in 1981 to develop and sell software tools such as compilers, specialising in real-time embedded systems.
Professional and Standard compilers are available for: ARM and Cortex-M0/M1/M3/M4, ARM/StrongARM/XScale, 386/486/Pentium, H8S, H8/300H and H8/Tiny, Coldfire, 9S12/68HC12, MSP430 and 8051. Custom implementations are available on request.

MPE also offers as hardware and software consultancy, with particular expertise in high-performance Forth systems and rapid compilation. Projects are staffed by both MPE employees and external consultants.

MPE products are used in application areas such as glass-grinding, payment terminals, vending machines, bomb-disposal and construction planning. They have been used in products all over the world and as far as comets and Mars.

Technical Information:
MPE MicroProcessor Engineering
Stephen Pelc, MD
Tel:		+44 (0)23 8063 1441
Email: 		stephen@mpeforth.com
Web: 		http://www.mpeforth.com

PR Contact:
MPE MicroProcessor Engineering
Juergen Pintaske
Tel: 		+44 (0) 7736 70 76 74
Email: 		juergen@exemark/.com
Web: 		http://www.mpeforth.com

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#34397

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:09:45 PM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote:
> A proud Forth Community...

Why would I feel proud of something that I wasn't involved in?

As a purely practical matter, there is no money to be made in selling compilers --- there is a lot of work involved in writing them, and they are typically given away for free to induce people to buy the target-processor (MFX was), or maybe sold for a small amount of money (VFX is) --- but if you do sell software, it just gets pirated anyway. 

Also, there is no money to be made in building a custom processor --- there is a lot of work involved, and the chips still have to be sold one at a time for a few dollars apiece --- for the most part, nobody wants to use a processor that isn't being second-sourced, so it mostly only gets used in onesy-twosy projects (such as this spaceship). 

My experience with esoteric stuff like this, is that it doesn't help for getting a job. People think that the story is cool, but what I did isn't even close to what they are doing, so it doesn't count as work experience.

Hypothetically, if the MiniForth (now called the RACE) had been used rather than the RTX2000, my chances of getting a job would still be zero --- nobody cared that the MiniForth was being used in a laser etcher, so why would anybody care if it gets used in a spaceship?

Due to a failure of leadership in 1994, Forth is dead --- landing on a comet doesn't change this fact.

On a positive note, Juergen's story appears to be true --- this is as compared to Elizabeth Rather and Leon Wagner claim that they work for NASA, which was never true --- it is important that people's boasts be true!

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#34398

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:19:45 PM UTC-5, hughag...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:09:45 PM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote:
> > A proud Forth Community...
> 
> Why would I feel proud of something that I wasn't involved in?

I wasn't involved in the journey to the comet, but I am feeling proud, because I got acquainted with Forth decades ago and I peacefully use Forth whenever possible.

I never earned a lot of money because I have chosen to do interesting work, work which makes sense to me, and difficult work with microcontrollers.

If I would have chosen to earn a lot of money I should have worked for the financial markets, following the money. Money is to make where money is.

I preferred to do work which I like and which makes me proud.

Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.

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#34399

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:11:06 PM UTC-7, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.

Please tell me how! I don't have the slightest clue.

My experience after I left Testra, was that when I applied for work as a computer programmer, I was told that I was not qualified for even the most entry-level job --- mostly Visual Basic in those days, although there were some QBasic entry-level jobs still available as well --- nowadays, the entry-level jobs are mostly Perl or Python or some other scripting language, and I'm not qualified for them either (I haven't actually applied for any programming jobs in at least a decade, but I assume that Forth experience is still considered to be a negative rather than a positive).

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#34402

On Friday, 14 November 2014 04:22:29 UTC, hughag...@yahoo.com  wrote:
> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:11:06 PM UTC-7, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> > Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.
> 
> Please tell me how! I don't have the slightest clue.

By designing a product or service and selling it. That Forth is running
inside your product/service is irrelevant. Do you know/care what language
the software in your DVD player was written in? :-)

> 
> My experience after I left Testra, was that when I applied for work as a computer programmer, I was told that I was not qualified for even the most entry-level job --- mostly Visual Basic in those days, although there were some QBasic entry-level jobs still available as well --- nowadays, the entry-level jobs are mostly Perl or Python or some other scripting language, and I'm not qualified for them either (I haven't actually applied for any programming jobs in at least a decade, but I assume that Forth experience is still considered to be a negative rather than a positive).

Not at all. ANY programming *experience* (and it appears that you have
plenty) is a huge advantage. There are lots of skills that go along with
programming - irrelevant of the language. The biggest one is being to 
break problems down into small chunks and just *problem solve*. It sounds
obvious, but its a significant skill. If your CV came across my desk
I would not care two hoots about if you've learned this weeks' latest
trendy funky cool (in a real annoying left-wing liberal type of way) language
or not. If you've written a major system in Forth (and you have) then I'd
be interested in your overall ability to build a system such as that. 
It takes skill and patience to develop a system like that. I don't care
if you wrote it in C or Forth. Perhaps my shop uses ADA? So what? If 
you've mastered Forth, or assembly, or C then you can learn ADA. It's 
just a language. The language is *not* where the skills are.
However, I do sympathise. CV reviewers look for individual skills.
Probably because they don't want to wait for someone to come up to speed
with a particular language. I've never operated like that. I'm looking
at the forest, not the trees.

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#34403

On Friday, 14 November 2014 04:22:29 UTC, hugefagilar@yahoo.com whined:
>> > Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.
>> 
>> Please tell me how! I don't have the slightest clue.

That is true of you generally Fagilar, not limited to what you asked.
Everybody's entitled to be a huge arse but you abuse the privilege.

On 2014-11-14, Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> wrote:
> By designing a product or service and selling it. That Forth is running
> inside your product/service is irrelevant. Do you know/care what language
> the software in your DVD player was written in? :-)

Sure once you jailbreak it you're gonna wanna hack on it and if it's written
in C you'll be disappointed ;-)

On Friday, 14 November 2014 04:22:29 UTC, hugefagilar@yahoo.com whined:
>> My experience after I left Testra, was that when I applied for work as a
>computer programmer, I was told that I was not qualified for even the most
>entry-level job --- mostly Visual Basic in those days, although there were
>some QBasic entry-level jobs still available as well --- nowadays, the
>entry-level jobs are mostly Perl or Python or some other scripting
>language, and I'm not qualified for them either (I haven't actually applied
>for any programming jobs in at least a decade, but I assume that Forth
>experience is still considered to be a negative rather than a positive). 

That's not because of anything to do with Forth. It's because you're an
ignorant shallow-minded racist bum. They were right if what you produced
since then is any indication... Maybe you can get a job "installing" air
fresheners in peoples cars at the car wash. You could write air freshener
admin on your CV. Yeah that has a nice ring to it. Huge Fagilar Certified AFA.

HARRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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#34406

( 1) http://www.dlr.de/rd/Portaldata/28/Resources/dokumente/rx/Philae_Lander_FactSheets.pdf

(2) 

http://www.esa.int/TEC/Software_engineering_and_standardisation/TECP5EUXBQE_0.html

I am sure everyone will draw their own conclusions but I would have never guessed forth was used.

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#34408 — Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw

 On 14 Nov 14 at group /comp/lang/forth in article 5dfa29d1-3fea-4d11-bbd1-82e98d400c88@googlegroups.com
 <november.nihal@gmail.com>   wrote:

>I am sure everyone will draw their own conclusions but I would have
>never guessed forth was used.

I`m shure they use 10 RTX2010 with Forth in the lander:

http://www.cpushack.com/2014/11/12/here-comes-philae-powered-by-an- 
rtx2010/

I gave some consulting about RTX2000 in the 90th at the DLR in Berlin/ 
Adlershof. I`m shure, they also use some of my algorithms and hints for  
the HW layout :) I also sold them a RTX2000 (Wiesel) board and a LMI  
RTX2000 metacompiler.

BTW it was the longest flight of a RTX2010.

I`ve seen other applications with RTX2000 in very short flights, but  
with extrem high G-force starting. It was a very interesting application  
for the olive-greens, the never asked for any warranty repair or work :)  
In fact they were very happy when the RTX was destroyed each time...  
Harris also :)



Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

-- 
Wolfgang Allinger, anerkannter Trollallergiker :) reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung! :p
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit)      iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

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#34412 — Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw

On 11/14/2014 2:11 PM, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
>
> I`ve seen other applications with RTX2000 in very short flights, but
> with extrem high G-force starting. It was a very interesting application
> for the olive-greens, the never asked for any warranty repair or work :)
> In fact they were very happy when the RTX was destroyed each time...
> Harris also :)

Hmmm, when I took software engineering as a course in college they 
defined a properly working computer as one which could not cause 
permanent damage to itself by any sequence of instructions... I think 
that precludes such a use.  Or you could say your computer properly 
failed on every test.

-- 

Rick

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#34417 — Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw

 On 14 Nov 14 at group /comp/lang/forth in article m46e49$i0f$1@dont-email.me
 <gnuarm@gmail.com>  (rickman)  wrote:

>On 11/14/2014 2:11 PM, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
>>
>> I`ve seen other applications with RTX2000 in very short flights, but
>> with extrem high G-force starting. It was a very interesting
>> application for the olive-greens, the never asked for any warranty
>> repair or work :) In fact they were very happy when the RTX was
>> destroyed each time... Harris also :)

>Hmmm, when I took software engineering as a course in college they
>defined a properly working computer as one which could not cause
>permanent damage to itself by any sequence of instructions... I think
>that precludes such a use.  Or you could say your computer properly
>failed on every test.

I think, your SE course wasn`t perfect. It failed on MIL :)



Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

-- 
Wolfgang Allinger, anerkannter Trollallergiker :) reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung! :p
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit)      iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

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#34480 — Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw

Hi Wolfgang,
yes, we remember you very well. You indeed gave us a good starting point 
with RTX2000 and LMI-Forth.
Important for us was that we were able to purchase the  LMI-Metacompiler 
sources, allowing us to extend and fix it for our project.

Finally we made the DPU's for 5 different PHILAE experiments ROLIS, 
COSAC, MUPUS, SESAME, SD2. All five boards worked well till the end of 
Philae primary battery power, and will hopefully wake-up again sometime 
next year...

http://www.dlr.de/pf/de/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-202/318_read-520/
http://www.dlr.de/rb/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-4538/7439_read-11269/

Regards, Rolf


On 14.11.2014 20:11, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
>   On 14 Nov 14 at group /comp/lang/forth in article 5dfa29d1-3fea-4d11-bbd1-82e98d400c88@googlegroups.com
>   <november.nihal@gmail.com>   wrote:
>
>> I am sure everyone will draw their own conclusions but I would have
>> never guessed forth was used.
>
> I`m shure they use 10 RTX2010 with Forth in the lander:
>
> http://www.cpushack.com/2014/11/12/here-comes-philae-powered-by-an-
> rtx2010/
>
> I gave some consulting about RTX2000 in the 90th at the DLR in Berlin/
> Adlershof. I`m shure, they also use some of my algorithms and hints for
> the HW layout :) I also sold them a RTX2000 (Wiesel) board and a LMI
> RTX2000 metacompiler.
>
> BTW it was the longest flight of a RTX2010.
>
> I`ve seen other applications with RTX2000 in very short flights, but
> with extrem high G-force starting. It was a very interesting application
> for the olive-greens, the never asked for any warranty repair or work :)
> In fact they were very happy when the RTX was destroyed each time...
> Harris also :)
>
>
>
> Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
> Wolfgang
>

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#34409

november.nihal@gmail.com writes:
> I am sure everyone will draw their own conclusions but I would have
> never guessed forth was used.

There is some more info here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8597914   citing
http://www.hiradastechnika.hu/data/upload/file/2004/2004_12/HT0412ang-8.pdf

Forth isn't mentioned but the RTX2010 is.  It sounds like the
application is written in some kind of DSL ("MSO modelling language"),
which is presumably implemented in Forth.

There are some other informative posts in the HN thread too.

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#34410

On Friday, November 14, 2014 3:26:33 PM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
> Forth isn't mentioned but the RTX2010 is.  It sounds like the
> application is written in some kind of DSL ("MSO modelling language"),
> which is presumably implemented in Forth.

At http://www.sgf.hu/newsgfweb3_005.htm it says 
"Our team to the order of MPE has designed the Command and Data Management Subsystem (CDMS) of the Rosetta Lander. The engineering model was manufactured in Hungary and the flight model was by the Max-Planck Institute [Germany]. CDMS is in charge of controlling the whole Lander operation, including preparations for separation from the orbiter, thermal and power management, as well as separation, descent and touch down. In addition to playing an essential role in controlling the whole landing scenario, CDMS has the following tasks to perform on the comet's surface: to receive and execute telecommands coming from Earth, to collect and send science and housekeeping information of Lander's subsystems and scientific experiments to Earth, and to control the sequencing of science operations...
 Harris RTX2010 processor has been selected for the DPU boards because it is the lowest power consuming, space qualified, radiation hardened, 16-bit processor with features to provide so complicated functions as the CDMS has to perform. It is a stack based, Forth language oriented processor with an exotic and challenging instruction set. CDMS is a real-time control and data acquisition system, and it has to process tasks in parallel. Therefore, a real-time, pre-emptive multitasking operating system has been developed to run application tasks executing the required functions in parallel."

Now the question is: what is the order of MPE? 

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#34416

On Friday, November 14, 2014 9:04:46 PM UTC, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 14, 2014 3:26:33 PM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
> >
> > Forth isn't mentioned but the RTX2010 is.  It sounds like the
> > application is written in some kind of DSL ("MSO modelling language"),
> > which is presumably implemented in Forth.
> 
> At http://www.sgf.hu/newsgfweb3_005.htm it says 
> "Our team to the order of MPE has designed the Command and Data Management Subsystem (CDMS) of the Rosetta Lander. The engineering model was manufactured in Hungary and the flight model was by the Max-Planck Institute [Germany]. CDMS is in charge of controlling the whole Lander operation, including preparations for separation from the orbiter, thermal and power management, as well as separation, descent and touch down. In addition to playing an essential role in controlling the whole landing scenario, CDMS has the following tasks to perform on the comet's surface: to receive and execute telecommands coming from Earth, to collect and send science and housekeeping information of Lander's subsystems and scientific experiments to Earth, and to control the sequencing of science operations...
>  Harris RTX2010 processor has been selected for the DPU boards because it is the lowest power consuming, space qualified, radiation hardened, 16-bit processor with features to provide so complicated functions as the CDMS has to perform. It is a stack based, Forth language oriented processor with an exotic and challenging instruction set. CDMS is a real-time control and data acquisition system, and it has to process tasks in parallel. Therefore, a real-time, pre-emptive multitasking operating system has been developed to run application tasks executing the required functions in parallel."
> 
> Now the question is: what is the order of MPE?

The order is most probably - and their English is probably a lot better than your Hungarian - Advice and Support.

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#34407

On 11/14/14 12:48 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Friday, 14 November 2014 04:22:29 UTC, hughag...@yahoo.com  wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:11:06 PM UTC-7, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>>> Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.
>>
>> Please tell me how! I don't have the slightest clue.
>
> By designing a product or service and selling it. That Forth is running
> inside your product/service is irrelevant. Do you know/care what language
> the software in your DVD player was written in? :-)

A very important observation. Forth makes programs smaller, simpler, and 
more adaptable. If Forth can help you make your widget smaller, cheaper, 
lower-power, lower component cost, or any other advantage, it can make 
money. No one gets rich pushing a programming language; you get rich by 
producing products that people want to buy.

Folks here have been searching for the "killer app" for many years, but 
the part that hasn't happened is taking an idea and finding the time, 
financial backing, and marketing resources to actually bring an app into 
being.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#34414

On Friday, November 14, 2014 3:48:26 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Friday, 14 November 2014 04:22:29 UTC, hughag...@yahoo.com  wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:11:06 PM UTC-7, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> > > Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.
> > 
> > Please tell me how! I don't have the slightest clue.
> 
> By designing a product or service and selling it. That Forth is running
> inside your product/service is irrelevant. Do you know/care what language
> the software in your DVD player was written in? :-)

For something that will be mass-produced, like a DVD, hardware is more important than software because the cost per unit multiplied by a large number of customers overwhelms the cost of hiring the programmer. You could just program in assembly-language --- even if this doubles the programming time, the savings on being able to use less hardware will still more than make up for the programming cost.

I think that Forth matters more for a product that will be customizable and needs an embedded language for customizing. In this case, software matters more than hardware, because customizing will be an ongoing work over the entire lifetime of the product.

A good example of this, is a point-of-sale terminal. Those have to customized for every customer. This would be a great application for Forth. Most POS terminals have a crude embedded-language that does not compare very will with Forth --- this is where Forth could really shine.

> I do sympathise. CV reviewers look for individual skills.
> Probably because they don't want to wait for someone to come up to speed
> with a particular language. I've never operated like that. I'm looking
> at the forest, not the trees.

Invariably, whenever a job interviewer asks how long it will take to "come up to speed" --- they are looking for a code-monkey --- they believe that there is no originality or creativity involved in programming at all, and that programming is just a matter of "speed" in cranking out lines of code per hour.

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#34425

On Friday, November 14, 2014 10:44:06 PM UTC-7, hughag...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 14, 2014 3:48:26 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
> > On Friday, 14 November 2014 04:22:29 UTC, hughag...@yahoo.com  wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:11:06 PM UTC-7, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> > > > Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.
> > > 
> > > Please tell me how! I don't have the slightest clue.
> > 
> > By designing a product or service and selling it. That Forth is running
> > inside your product/service is irrelevant. Do you know/care what language
> > the software in your DVD player was written in? :-)
> 
> For something that will be mass-produced, like a DVD, hardware is more important than software because the cost per unit multiplied by a large number of customers overwhelms the cost of hiring the programmer. You could just program in assembly-language --- even if this doubles the programming time, the savings on being able to use less hardware will still more than make up for the programming cost.
> 
> I think that Forth matters more for a product that will be customizable and needs an embedded language for customizing. In this case, software matters more than hardware, because customizing will be an ongoing work over the entire lifetime of the product.
> 
> A good example of this, is a point-of-sale terminal. Those have to customized for every customer. This would be a great application for Forth. Most POS terminals have a crude embedded-language that does not compare very will with Forth --- this is where Forth could really shine.

Motion-control boards are another example of something that has to be customized for every customer. This is most likely why Testra built the MiniForth rather than use the MC6812 and port the program to C as I originally suggested.

For the most part, I see Forth as being useful in programs that have to be customized for every customer, because speed of programming is important when you do it repeatedly rather than just once.

I also see Forth as being useful in programs where the hardware is untested and likely doesn't work to spec, because the interactive REPL allows the programmer to test the hardware and figure out what it does. 

Forth is also useful by hardware technicians because they can use the REPL to trouble-shoot the board and find out why it is not working. I'm not a hardware technician however, so fixing bad boards isn't something that I know anything about.

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#34431

On 11/15/2014 4:00 PM, hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> I also see Forth as being useful in programs where the hardware is untested and likely doesn't work to spec, because the interactive REPL allows the programmer to test the hardware and figure out what it does.
>
> Forth is also useful by hardware technicians because they can use the REPL to trouble-shoot the board and find out why it is not working. I'm not a hardware technician however, so fixing bad boards isn't something that I know anything about.

I *am* a hardware guy and that is the main reason why I use Forth.  A 
million years ago when I was getting started in Forth I used debug 
monitors to help bring up hardware and debug faults.  The most advanced 
machine I ever worked on didn't even have that, we have very small 
programs called "engineering loops" that would need to be individually 
loaded and run.  We could have saved a lot of time by spending enough 
time up front to write a Forth... heck, we didn't need to write it, we 
could have used FIG Forth.  But I wasn't allowed to think too much in 
that job, plus I didn't really know Forth at all even though I knew 
about it.

-- 

Rick

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#34400

On 11/13/2014 11:11 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:19:45 PM UTC-5, hughag...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:09:45 PM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote:
>>> A proud Forth Community...
>>
>> Why would I feel proud of something that I wasn't involved in?
>
> I wasn't involved in the journey to the comet, but I am feeling proud, because I got acquainted with Forth decades ago and I peacefully use Forth whenever possible.
>
> I never earned a lot of money because I have chosen to do interesting work, work which makes sense to me, and difficult work with microcontrollers.
>
> If I would have chosen to earn a lot of money I should have worked for the financial markets, following the money. Money is to make where money is.
>
> I preferred to do work which I like and which makes me proud.
>
> Of course it is possible to make a lot of money with Forth. The power is there. You have to use it.

You will do much better not responding to these type of rants.

-- 

Rick

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#34405

Hi Juergen & Stephen & co.,

Watching Philae bounce and land on 67P made my day.
Finding that it is powered by Forth and an RTX2010 was icing on the cake :-)

Well done all!
Howerd


On Thursday, 13 November 2014 22:09:45 UTC, JUERGEN  wrote:
> Just for your info.
> One aplication where Forth showed what it can do
> 
> Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software
> From steering telescopes to steering Philae
> Intersil's RTX processors and Forth software controlled the successful Philae landing
> 
> Southampton, UK - 13 November 2014 - A proud Forth Community knows that these niche processors and niche languages are sometimes the only choice, and others will re-look at Forth and it's capabilities now again.
> MPE can announce, that MPE Compilers were used on this project.
> It was Intersil RTX Processors running some Forth in hardware, and the Forth programming language that made it happen. Goo processor architectures do not die - they just convert into IP, and MPE can still supply the RTX2000 IP today together with the compiler Tools.
> Intersil's RTX processors made sure the landing on the asteroid was successful. And up to 10 of them are working now in the Philae controlling the systems to gather data about the comet.
> One additional point for using this processor was the availability in radhard - but this was the reason for Intersil to manufacture it in the first place - why else have it in radhard.
> The Forth language was used to program them. A language very close to "radhard software", as the interactive programming structure combining smaller words into larger phrases speeds up programming and makes debugging easier. Certifying code is eased as well, as this language fits nicely into structure of the code. It is like writing a book: first there are letters - Machine Code, then Forth, then words combine these and combine as well words to new words and phrases. When the book is finished, the application is ready.
> And the RTX is still available - some versions difficult to get but the IP in VHDL for FPGA is available from MPE today - and used in special applications.
> For the inventor of Forth this landing must be quite satisfying, as he was involved in many ways: 
> Chuck Moore designed Forth about 45 years ago to control large telescopes as the tools available were not good enough for him.
> Chuck Moore designed the Novix chip to improve speed by putting Forth words in silicon - improving speed and reducing current consumption at the same time.
> Chuck Moore's Novix chip, then adapted and manufactured a series of RTX processors in radhard technology by Intersil.
> And now the landing on Philae using his technology. He must be very proud about this achievement, now on his new venture with a 144 Multicore Forth processor.
> We at MPE can only salute the Rosetta all the people involved and make the IP of the RTX2000 available for projects - used in FPGAs today.
> 
> END
> About MPE Microprocessor Engineering
> MPE is a privately held company based in Southampton UK, founded in 1981 to develop and sell software tools such as compilers, specialising in real-time embedded systems.
> Professional and Standard compilers are available for: ARM and Cortex-M0/M1/M3/M4, ARM/StrongARM/XScale, 386/486/Pentium, H8S, H8/300H and H8/Tiny, Coldfire, 9S12/68HC12, MSP430 and 8051. Custom implementations are available on request.
> 
> MPE also offers as hardware and software consultancy, with particular expertise in high-performance Forth systems and rapid compilation. Projects are staffed by both MPE employees and external consultants.
> 
> MPE products are used in application areas such as glass-grinding, payment terminals, vending machines, bomb-disposal and construction planning. They have been used in products all over the world and as far as comets and Mars.
> 
> Technical Information:
> MPE MicroProcessor Engineering
> Stephen Pelc, MD
> Tel:		+44 (0)23 8063 1441
> Email: 		ste....@mpeforth.com
> Web: 		http://www.mpeforth.com
> 
> PR Contact:
> MPE MicroProcessor Engineering
> Juergen Pintaske
> Tel: 		+44 (0) 7736 70 76 74
> Email: 		jue....@exemark/.com
> Web: 		http://www.mpeforth.com

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