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Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips

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  Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-09-27 14:52 -0700
    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-27 12:35 -1000
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-10-02 00:01 +0200
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-02 00:35 -0700
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 04:00 -0400
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-02 01:34 -0700
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-02 07:30 -0700
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-10-02 10:26 +0000
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-10-02 14:41 +0000
            Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-02 08:25 -0700
              Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 23:13 -0400
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-10-25 12:46 +0200
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 17:00 -0800
    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-10-04 08:09 -0700
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-10-05 11:45 +1000
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 13:55 -0800
    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-10-15 16:45 -0700
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-16 11:20 -0400
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-10-17 12:03 +0000
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-17 11:40 -0400
            Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-10-17 19:58 +0000
              Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-17 17:22 -0400
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-10-17 11:45 -1000
                  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-18 13:33 -0400
                    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:15 -0800
              Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-10-18 04:02 -0400
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2013-10-18 07:01 -0700
                  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-10-18 08:53 -1000
                    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips c-gschuette@neogov.net - 2013-11-07 09:24 -0800
                      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-07 07:38 -1000
                      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-07 20:07 -0500
                        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 10:00 -0800
                          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-16 17:22 -0500
                            Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-16 13:53 -1000
                              Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-17 04:17 -0600
                                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-11-17 15:21 +0100
                                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-17 08:55 -1000
                                  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-17 16:13 -0600
                                    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-17 12:37 -1000
                  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-10-18 21:19 -0400
                  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:28 -0800
                  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:34 -0800
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-10-17 11:32 -1000
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-10-18 04:02 -0400
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:11 -0800

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#26055 — Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips

when will this happen?

cant wait!!

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#26056

On 9/27/2013 11:52 AM, the_gavino_himself wrote:
> when will this happen?
>
> cant wait!!
>

I'll happen when someone comes up with several $M in funding.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#26088

Elizabeth D Rather wrote:

> On 9/27/2013 11:52 AM, the_gavino_himself wrote:
>> when will this happen?
>>
>> cant wait!!
>>
> 
> I'll happen when someone comes up with several $M in funding.

With 4 megs of RAM?  I wouldn't do that even if I had large funding.  This 
is not enough memory to display a single cat image, so it's not worth 
considering.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#26092

On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:01:15 PM UTC+1, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> With 4 megs of RAM?  I wouldn't do that even if I had large funding.  This 
> is not enough memory to display a single cat image, so it's not worth 
> considering.

This is true. Cat images are big. Especially images of lions - because they are really big.

We could integrate image recognition capabilities into the browser, where all detected images of cats and lions are replaced with a pre-approved picture of a cuddly kitten. Kittens are small, so the image will be much smaller too. And they are cuddly. So everyone wins.

I'll get right onto it!

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#26093

On 10/2/2013 3:35 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:01:15 PM UTC+1, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> With 4 megs of RAM?  I wouldn't do that even if I had large funding.  This
>> is not enough memory to display a single cat image, so it's not worth
>> considering.
>
> This is true. Cat images are big. Especially images of lions - because they are really big.
>
> We could integrate image recognition capabilities into the browser, where all detected images of cats and lions are replaced with a pre-approved picture of a cuddly kitten. Kittens are small, so the image will be much smaller too. And they are cuddly. So everyone wins.
>
> I'll get right onto it!

I'm not sure the zookeepers would agree.  Not everyone wins.  :(

-- 

Rick

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#26094

Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> With 4 megs of RAM?  I wouldn't do that even if I had large funding.  This 
> is not enough memory to display a single cat image, so it's not worth 
> considering.

Use Forth minimalism.  A picture of a black cat in a coal bin compresses
to almost nothing.

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#26096

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:34:11 AM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:

> Use Forth minimalism.  A picture of a black cat in a coal bin compresses
> to almost nothing.

See. That's why I like the Forth community. You guys are just geniuses!

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#26095

In article <l2fgnb$pqc$1@online.de>, Bernd Paysan  <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:
>Elizabeth D Rather wrote:
>
>> On 9/27/2013 11:52 AM, the_gavino_himself wrote:
>>> when will this happen?
>>>
>>> cant wait!!
>>>
>>
>> I'll happen when someone comes up with several $M in funding.
>
>With 4 megs of RAM?  I wouldn't do that even if I had large funding.  This
>is not enough memory to display a single cat image, so it's not worth
>considering.

What happened to the Forth mentality? Sites with pictures aren't worth it.
Just download the text, doable in 4 Mbyte.
>

>--
>Bernd Paysan
>"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
>http://bernd-paysan.de/
>
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#26097

On 2013-10-02, Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> In article <l2fgnb$pqc$1@online.de>, Bernd Paysan  <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:
>>Elizabeth D Rather wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/27/2013 11:52 AM, the_gavino_himself wrote:
>>>> when will this happen?
>>>>
>>>> cant wait!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'll happen when someone comes up with several $M in funding.
>>
>>With 4 megs of RAM?  I wouldn't do that even if I had large funding.  This
>>is not enough memory to display a single cat image, so it's not worth
>>considering.
>
> What happened to the Forth mentality? Sites with pictures aren't worth it.
> Just download the text, doable in 4 Mbyte.

And what's wrong with ASCII text cat pictures or ANSI-escape sequence cat
pictures? Surely possible in a few kilobytes ;-)

Bill

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#26098

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 3:41:07 PM UTC+1, Bill Richards wrote:
> And what's wrong with ASCII text cat pictures or ANSI-escape sequence cat
> pictures? Surely possible in a few kilobytes ;-)

With this quality brain-storming we're going to have this browser written in no time!

I've already found a resource for the ASCII art cats:

http://user.xmission.com/~emailbox/ascii_cats.htm

I think we now have nearly everything we need to write Firecat.

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#26101

On 10/2/2013 11:25 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 3:41:07 PM UTC+1, Bill Richards wrote:
>> And what's wrong with ASCII text cat pictures or ANSI-escape sequence cat
>> pictures? Surely possible in a few kilobytes ;-)
>
> With this quality brain-storming we're going to have this browser written in no time!
>
> I've already found a resource for the ASCII art cats:
>
> http://user.xmission.com/~emailbox/ascii_cats.htm
>
> I think we now have nearly everything we need to write Firecat.

ROFLMAO

-- 

Rick

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#26675

>> With 4 megs of RAM?  I wouldn't do that even if I had large funding.  This
>> is not enough memory to display a single cat image, so it's not worth
>> considering.
> 
> What happened to the Forth mentality? Sites with pictures aren't worth it.
> Just download the text, doable in 4 Mbyte.

Forth style requires to have a close look at the conditions first:

* 4 MB RAM
* Surf
* with Forth (or on Forth chips).

The most simple solution:

Dust of hardware of last century
Compile an old Linux kernel
Install Busybox and Lynx or Links - good old textmode browser I checked my Emails with on VT100 terminals in university :-)
And finally, to match criteria, install a Forth of your choice.
Oh, please, could we have the legendary welcome boot sound of the Silicon Graphics Indy boxes ?

Done.

This way we have filled the 4 MB RAM properly.

With 64kb RAM limit, it is already done, but still lacks Forth:

Do you know Contiki which gives you IPv6 and a browser on a Commodore 64 or a microcontroller ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiki

If you have never seen retrocomputing graphics demos before, you probably cannot imagine doing great images on the fly. Scan line interrupts pop to my mind...
But... personally I like the black cat in a coal bin most :-D Thank you for the laugh !

Matthias

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#26803

my win 3.1 pc with 4m ram displayed tons of stuff asdide from cats in early netscape!!

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#26112

On Friday, September 27, 2013 5:52:10 PM UTC-4, the_gavino_himself wrote:
> when will this happen?
> 

Forth is usually used to program things the world hasn't seen yet. I think the world has seen a web browser or two.

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#26328

Brad Eckert wrote:
> On Friday, September 27, 2013 5:52:10 PM UTC-4, the_gavino_himself wrote:
> > when will this happen?
> >
>
> Forth is usually used to program things the world hasn't seen yet.

This is true of most languages.

> I think the world has
> seen a web browser or two.

Other languages got there first.

There's good reason Forth users prefer to talk about Forth Standards.  It's
because they can't think of anything to write that hasn't already been written
in another language.

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#26868

hmmm

see I would like to use forth do do things we have seen with far less code and effort

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#26570

On Friday, September 27, 2013 4:52:10 PM UTC-5, the_gavino_himself wrote:
> when will this happen?
> 
> 
> 
> cant wait!!

I'd prefer a FORTH OS running on recent HW.

And I'd love to do a USB OS.

All would require big $$$.

A FORTH subnet surfer would be where I'd start if I had my way.

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#26586

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013, Clyde W. Phillips Jr. wrote:

> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 16:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Clyde W. Phillips Jr. <cwpjr02@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
> Subject: Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth
>      chips
> 
> On Friday, September 27, 2013 4:52:10 PM UTC-5, the_gavino_himself wrote:
>> when will this happen?
>>
>>
>>
>> cant wait!!
>
> I'd prefer a FORTH OS running on recent HW.
>
> And I'd love to do a USB OS.
>
> All would require big $$$.
>
> A FORTH subnet surfer would be where I'd start if I had my way.
>

I disagree with the big $$$ assertion.  Linux started as a student 
project, and has evolved to where it is today.  A generic Forth OS with a 
degree of portability can be had quite reasonably, even as an open source 
hobby-type project.

The one thing that would simplify the portability is to use a device tree 
to describe the target, in a manner similar to the Flattened Device Tree 
model used by the PPC folks.  This will describe memory, registers, GPIO, 
i2C buses and various components of the board, as well as the SoC itself 
to produce a "bus model".  Drivers can then be developed generically.

Basically, one would implement basic boot code in assembler, plus the 
primitives (Ting has suggested somewhere between 20 and 30 or so), and the 
rest would be written in Forth.

There are any number of embedded boards commercially available which would 
be decent targets ...

Cheers,
Rob.

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#26611

In article <alpine.BSF.2.00.1310161110440.50696@yoko.controlq.com>,
 <Spam@ControlQ.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Oct 2013, Clyde W. Phillips Jr. wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 16:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Clyde W. Phillips Jr. <cwpjr02@gmail.com>
>> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
>> Subject: Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth
>>      chips
>>
>> On Friday, September 27, 2013 4:52:10 PM UTC-5, the_gavino_himself wrote:
>>> when will this happen?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> cant wait!!
>>
>> I'd prefer a FORTH OS running on recent HW.
>>
>> And I'd love to do a USB OS.
>>
>> All would require big $$$.
>>
>> A FORTH subnet surfer would be where I'd start if I had my way.
>>
>
>I disagree with the big $$$ assertion.  Linux started as a student
>project, and has evolved to where it is today.  A generic Forth OS with a
>degree of portability can be had quite reasonably, even as an open source
>hobby-type project.

This misrepresents the situation. Torvalds jumped on the GNU-train that
was running 200 km/h and had consumed hundreds of millions of dollars in
public funding (well spent, IMO).

>
>The one thing that would simplify the portability is to use a device tree
>to describe the target, in a manner similar to the Flattened Device Tree
>model used by the PPC folks.  This will describe memory, registers, GPIO,
>i2C buses and various components of the board, as well as the SoC itself
>to produce a "bus model".  Drivers can then be developed generically.

We don't have to start from nothing. There is open boot, and "all" we have
to do is to port that to Pentium machines.

>
>Basically, one would implement basic boot code in assembler, plus the
>primitives (Ting has suggested somewhere between 20 and 30 or so), and the
>rest would be written in Forth.

The rest... Have you looked at an obscure language like Python recently?
No OS written in Python. Still getting an overview of what
libraries are available is mind-boggling.

>
>There are any number of embedded boards commercially available which would
>be decent targets ...

>
>Cheers,
>Rob.


Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#26614

On Thu, 17 Oct 2013, Albert van der Horst wrote:

>> I disagree with the big $$$ assertion.  Linux started as a student
>> project, and has evolved to where it is today.  A generic Forth OS with a
>> degree of portability can be had quite reasonably, even as an open source
>> hobby-type project.
>
> This misrepresents the situation. Torvalds jumped on the GNU-train that
> was running 200 km/h and had consumed hundreds of millions of dollars in
> public funding (well spent, IMO).

True, a readily available C compiler was a pre-requisite for Linux, but a 
Forth based X-assembler for a given target fulfills that need.  In 
addition, knowledge of the boot code/initialization for the target.  That 
does not constitute a huge portion of the OS, but would cover most of the 
machine dependencies.

>
>>
>> The one thing that would simplify the portability is to use a device tree
>> to describe the target, in a manner similar to the Flattened Device Tree
>> model used by the PPC folks.  This will describe memory, registers, GPIO,
>> i2C buses and various components of the board, as well as the SoC itself
>> to produce a "bus model".  Drivers can then be developed generically.
>
> We don't have to start from nothing. There is open boot, and "all" we have
> to do is to port that to Pentium machines.

Assuming this belongs on a desktop.  Arm, PPC and MIPS would be better 
first targets ... and again, I would stress the FDT approach to describe 
the platform/architecture to the OS -- the modern PC's firmware with bus 
instantiation is complex, but is not found on embedded targets.

>>
>> Basically, one would implement basic boot code in assembler, plus the
>> primitives (Ting has suggested somewhere between 20 and 30 or so), and the
>> rest would be written in Forth.
>
> The rest... Have you looked at an obscure language like Python recently?
> No OS written in Python. Still getting an overview of what
> libraries are available is mind-boggling.

Python is a general purpose high level scripting language with a degree of 
object orientation, and decent performance.  It naturally attracts coders 
where Forth does its best to drive them away.  I'm not sure what your 
point is here, other than Python is a wildly successful scripting language 
whereas Forth is relegated to fringe status.

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