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Forth.org status

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  Forth.org status Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-17 10:34 -0600
    Re: Forth.org status Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 11:14 -0800
      Re: Forth.org status Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-02-17 19:25 -0500
    Re: Forth.org status Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-02-18 12:57 -0600
      Re: Forth.org status Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-18 16:56 -0600
      Re: Forth.org status Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-18 16:07 -0800
        Re: Forth.org status Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2017-02-19 09:00 -0800
          Re: Forth.org status JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-02-20 11:52 -0800
            Re: Forth.org status Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-20 15:30 -0600
            Re: Forth.org status Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 01:46 -0800
            Re: Forth.org status Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-21 02:43 -0800
              Re: Forth.org status Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-21 05:47 -0600
                Re: Forth.org status JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-02-21 06:00 -0800
                  Re: Forth.org status Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 08:42 -0800
                    Re: Forth.org status Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 09:35 -0800
                      Re: Forth.org status polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 12:14 -0800
                      Re: Forth.org status polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 12:15 -0800
                    Re: Forth.org status JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-02-22 02:43 -0800
                      Re: Forth.org status rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-22 10:31 -0500
                    Re: Forth.org status "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-23 09:37 +1100
                      Re: Forth.org status Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-02-22 14:45 -0800
                        Re: Forth.org status "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-24 12:12 +1100
                      Re: Forth.org status hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-23 10:30 -0800
              Re: Forth.org status "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-22 21:35 +1100

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#54931 — Forth.org status

I see that forth.org is no longer resolved to a valid address. So does 
anyone know if it's temporary or are they gone for good? It seems their 
FTP site is also gone, although I'm not 100% sure they had one to begin 
with.

It's been a site with little maintenance but it has had a lot of 
historical software and information on the early days of Forth, one more 
domino if it's gone for good.

Recently I downloaded the Taygeta FTP site in case they disappear.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#54939

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 10:34:02 AM UTC-6, Cecil - k5nwa wrote:
> I see that forth.org is no longer resolved to a valid address. So does 
> anyone know if it's temporary or are they gone for good?

Registrant Organization: Forth Interest Group
Registrant Email: skip@TAYGETA.COM
Admin Organization: Taygeta Scientific Incorporated
Admin Email: skip@TAYGETA.COM
Tech Email: skip@TAYGETA.COM

The registered nameservers don't resolve forth.org to anything. One of them is
ns1.taygeta.com, which responds to pings at

Taygeta Scientific, Inc NET-TAYGETA (NET-206-55-232-0-1) 206.55.232.0 - 206.55.232.255
Monterey Bay Internet MBAYNET-BLK-1 (NET-206-55-224-0-1) 206.55.224.0 - 206.55.255.255

but doesn't respond to DNS queries.

So forth.org is probably down intentionally. Or it's down deliberately but it
was too much trouble to ask Metron Computerware to update their DNS
records.

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#54946

On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:14:32 -0800 (PST)
Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 10:34:02 AM UTC-6, Cecil - k5nwa
> wrote:

> > I see that forth.org is no longer resolved to a valid address. So
> > does anyone know if it's temporary or are they gone for good?  
> 
> The registered nameservers don't resolve forth.org to anything. One
> of them is ns1.taygeta.com, which responds to pings at
> but doesn't respond to DNS queries.
> 
> So forth.org is probably down intentionally. Or it's down
> deliberately but it was too much trouble to ask Metron Computerware
> to update their DNS records.

Various DNS servers are still returning 206.55.232.90 for forth.org.
However, all ports are currently closed.  It always seems to come back
online though ...


Rod Pemberton
-- 
All it takes for humanity to conquer the world's toughest problems
is to hope, to believe, to share, and to do, in cooperation.

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#54977

Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> wrote:
> I see that forth.org is no longer resolved to a valid address. So does 
> anyone know if it's temporary or are they gone for good? It seems their 
> FTP site is also gone, although I'm not 100% sure they had one to begin 
> with.
> 
> It's been a site with little maintenance but it has had a lot of 
> historical software and information on the early days of Forth, one more 
> domino if it's gone for good.
> 
> Recently I downloaded the Taygeta FTP site in case they disappear.

This is bad news.

forth.org was Skip Carter's site.  Did you get the Forth Dimensions
scans?  Thankfully, this stuff still seems to be available at
http://web.archive.org/web/20160707130606/http://www.forth.org/fd/contents.html

I guess we could clone the site.  It's very useful.

Andrew.

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#54980

On 2/18/2017 12:57 PM, Andrew Haley wrote:
> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> wrote:
>> I see that forth.org is no longer resolved to a valid address. So does
>> anyone know if it's temporary or are they gone for good? It seems their
>> FTP site is also gone, although I'm not 100% sure they had one to begin
>> with.
>>
>> It's been a site with little maintenance but it has had a lot of
>> historical software and information on the early days of Forth, one more
>> domino if it's gone for good.
>>
>> Recently I downloaded the Taygeta FTP site in case they disappear.
>
> This is bad news.
>
> forth.org was Skip Carter's site.  Did you get the Forth Dimensions
> scans?  Thankfully, this stuff still seems to be available at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20160707130606/http://www.forth.org/fd/contents.html
>
> I guess we could clone the site.  It's very useful.
>
> Andrew.
>
I didn't get everything, I was busy and didn't finish, I have all the 
Forth Dimensions Magazines and a lot of the software, on Taygeta I 
downloaded everything.

I find a lot of times things like the WayBack machines does not get the 
files but only the web pages. I see though that the issues are still 
there, I will tomorrow check to make sure I have them all.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#54984

Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> forth.org was Skip Carter's site.

Is he still around?  Could someone who knows him ask him what's up?  I
figure that's better than if a random person tries to contact him.

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#55011

On Sunday, 19 February 2017 01:07:39 UTC+1, Paul Rubin  wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> > forth.org was Skip Carter's site.
> 
> Is he still around?  Could someone who knows him ask him what's up?  I
> figure that's better than if a random person tries to contact him.

Hi All,

forth.org is back up at the moment...

Best regards,
Howerd

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#55021

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 5:00:13 PM UTC, Howerd wrote:
> On Sunday, 19 February 2017 01:07:39 UTC+1, Paul Rubin  wrote:
> > Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> > > forth.org was Skip Carter's site.
> > 
> > Is he still around?  Could someone who knows him ask him what's up?  I
> > figure that's better than if a random person tries to contact him.
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> forth.org is back up at the moment...
> 
> Best regards,
> Howerd

I cannot understand why there are is such an issue - no duplicates with all of the software knowledge here - A gig or 10 or a Terabyte 200$ probably a hard drive should be no issue to save it all - or is there just no interest. Backup seems to be not known. Could be easily mirrored at Forth INC or MPE. And as I am at it - Shame to the whole communtity that neither Chuck's website is backed up nor Ting's and kept alive. No interst it seems. In contrast I saved 10 Forth documentations as ebooks now - which will be there for the forseeable future at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM, so no issue there and I keep the originals at multiple places in case.

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#55022

On 2/20/2017 1:52 PM, JUERGEN wrote:
> On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 5:00:13 PM UTC, Howerd wrote:
>> On Sunday, 19 February 2017 01:07:39 UTC+1, Paul Rubin  wrote:
>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>> forth.org was Skip Carter's site.
>>>
>>> Is he still around?  Could someone who knows him ask him what's up?  I
>>> figure that's better than if a random person tries to contact him.
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> forth.org is back up at the moment...
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Howerd
>
> I cannot understand why there are is such an issue - no duplicates with all of the software knowledge here - A gig or 10 or a Terabyte 200$ probably a hard drive should be no issue to save it all - or is there just no interest. Backup seems to be not known. Could be easily mirrored at Forth INC or MPE. And as I am at it - Shame to the whole communtity that neither Chuck's website is backed up nor Ting's and kept alive. No interst it seems. In contrast I saved 10 Forth documentations as ebooks now - which will be there for the forseeable future at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM, so no issue there and I keep the originals at multiple places in case.
>
I have several backups of various sites stored in a Hard Disk, but alas 
not all, and I don't have permission to put the material on a website, I 
own the domain <  www.forthlang.org  > and will setup some of the 
material there if I get permission.

Forth.org is a tough site to backup, without having ftp access to the 
website there is no sure way to get a full copy of what is there. I do 
have a few of the major pieces backed up, Taygeta has a FTP server for 
the files so I have a complete copy of it. Offete is gone and it's too 
late to back it up, I asked Dr. Ting if I could put a mirror of it but 
he was not interested and only he has a copy of the full website.

Slowly information on Forth keeps disappearing so I applaud your efforts 
to make Dr. Tings literature available for the masses at a reasonable 
price, I just wish I had backups of many sites that are gone now. I have 
bought several of Dr. Ting's software/documentation packages and intend 
to have a copy of all of them for future reference but my funds are 
limited so I have to buy the rest slowly.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#55024

On Monday, 20 February 2017 19:52:34 UTC, JUERGEN  wrote:
> On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 5:00:13 PM UTC, Howerd wrote:
> > On Sunday, 19 February 2017 01:07:39 UTC+1, Paul Rubin  wrote:
> > > Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> > > > forth.org was Skip Carter's site.
> > > 
> > > Is he still around?  Could someone who knows him ask him what's up?  I
> > > figure that's better than if a random person tries to contact him.
> > 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > forth.org is back up at the moment...
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Howerd
> 
> I cannot understand why there are is such an issue - no duplicates with all of the software knowledge here - A gig or 10 or a Terabyte 200$ probably a hard drive should be no issue to save it all - or is there just no interest. Backup seems to be not known. Could be easily mirrored at Forth INC or MPE. And as I am at it - Shame to the whole communtity that neither Chuck's website is backed up nor Ting's and kept alive. No interst it seems. In contrast I saved 10 Forth documentations as ebooks now - which will be there for the forseeable future at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM, so no issue there and I keep the originals at multiple places in case.

Don't look at me! I specifically created the domain forthfiles.net with
the specific intention to create a place to archive Forth related information
lest it vanish forever. I took it upon myself to archive Jeff Fox's site
there, just in case. I've mentioned it numerous times here on CLF and
nobody cared. I've had the domain, what? Five years?

Whatever.

Someone else can do it! I'll kill it this year.

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#55025

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> Shame to the whole communtity that neither Chuck's website is backed
> up nor Ting's and kept alive. No interst it seems.

Also a question of whether Chuck or Ting want someone else to mirror
their sites.  Archive.org does it automatically but most of us random
users would want permission before going forward with something like
that.  Has anyone asked them?

And what is Skip Carter doing these days?  If he's tired of running
forth.org, maybe he could turn the domain over to someone.  

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#55026

On 2/21/2017 4:43 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
>> Shame to the whole communtity that neither Chuck's website is backed
>> up nor Ting's and kept alive. No interst it seems.
>
> Also a question of whether Chuck or Ting want someone else to mirror
> their sites.  Archive.org does it automatically but most of us random
> users would want permission before going forward with something like
> that.  Has anyone asked them?
>
> And what is Skip Carter doing these days?  If he's tired of running
> forth.org, maybe he could turn the domain over to someone.
>
I asked Dr Ting, that I would mirror it for free, and if he didn't want 
to maintain it himself I would do it, but he did not want his old site 
mirrored, hopefully he will change his mind in the future.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#55027

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:47:12 AM UTC, Cecil - k5nwa wrote:
> On 2/21/2017 4:43 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> > JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> >> Shame to the whole communtity that neither Chuck's website is backed
> >> up nor Ting's and kept alive. No interst it seems.
> >
> > Also a question of whether Chuck or Ting want someone else to mirror
> > their sites.  Archive.org does it automatically but most of us random
> > users would want permission before going forward with something like
> > that.  Has anyone asked them?
> >
> > And what is Skip Carter doing these days?  If he's tired of running
> > forth.org, maybe he could turn the domain over to someone.
> >
> I asked Dr Ting, that I would mirror it for free, and if he didn't want 
> to maintain it himself I would do it, but he did not want his old site 
> mirrored, hopefully he will change his mind in the future.
> 
> -- 
> Cecil - k5nwa

I am quite direct here: 

1. It seems the people responsible for this website are not responsible - then it means that they give a **** or are just lazy about their website responsibilities. This is fine for me, but THIS FACT should be made clear to the rest of the Forth community WITH THE RELVANT NAMES CLEARLY SHOWN AND DOCUMENTED.
 
As I said before: saving the contents is as well different from republishing it. This can be dealt with later. 

2. If Charles Moore, the inventor of Forth does not care, this is his decision, but I WANT IT IN WRITING FROM HIM   not as hearsay. 

This will mean that he abandons his own invention. 

Fine for me - his decision, but this is independent of saving the website contents.

3. If Ting decides that the information on his former website is dead and should stay this way - this is fine for me, 

BUT then writing to want to sell the sources of the work he did as shown in his  last two eBooks is somehow controversial and should be clarified with him. 

I am not sute about his health situation - but such a position would require that there is a backup option if he decides to not support the sales either and no replacement in sight.

It seems there is a big grave for Forth data at the moment and nobody is coming to the funeral.

And the name should be changed from Forth to something like for example Assembly Programming widely improved for Rapid Interactive Software Development  or APRISD in short ( this product name is copyright ExMark )

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#55031

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 8:00:26 AM UTC-6, JUERGEN wrote:
> I am quite direct here:
>
> 1. It seems the people responsible for this website are not responsible - then it means that they give a **** or are just lazy about their website responsibilities. This is fine for me, but THIS FACT should be made clear to the rest of the Forth community WITH THE RELVANT NAMES CLEARLY SHOWN AND DOCUMENTED.
>

http://forth.org/index.html

  Last updated March 2013. Please submit comments, suggestions, and
  corrections to the FIG webmaster.

The last word is a link to a page about Dave Jaffe, which only
contains his email: dljaffe@stanford.edu

You can hammer out the acceptable minutes/year of downtime for the
website, how parties should be informed about any outages, and so on.

> 2. If Charles Moore, the inventor of Forth does not care, this is his decision, but I WANT IT IN WRITING FROM HIM   not as hearsay.
>
> This will mean that he abandons his own invention.

So far, 100% of human inventions have been abandoned by their
inventor. I can't think of one improvement made to an invention by its
inventor a mere hundred years after the first improvement, for
example. If inventors aren't going to stick around for a few centuries
at the least, why bother with their works?

>
> It seems there is a big grave for Forth data at the moment and nobody is coming to the funeral.
>

Archives of GENIE logs are fun and all--I really did enjoy reading
through them--but they aren't life-essential. Forth's growth doesn't
depend on anyone's ability to find a decades-untouched shareware
system for the Amiga. And from buying old Forth books on Amazon, what
I've mainly discovered is that these books were pretty terrible. Some
are actually so bad that I have thoughts like: maybe THIS is why Forth
never took off. Maybe this book was on a sales shelf somewhere next to
books containing actually readable code.

Make something new.

> And the name should be changed from Forth to something like for example Assembly Programming widely improved for Rapid Interactive Software Development  or APRISD in short ( this product name is copyright ExMark )

Oh, you're joking.

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#55033

On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 16:42:39 UTC, Julian Fondren  wrote:
> And from buying old Forth books on Amazon, what
> I've mainly discovered is that these books were pretty terrible. Some
> are actually so bad that I have thoughts like: maybe THIS is why Forth
> never took off. Maybe this book was on a sales shelf somewhere next to
> books containing actually readable code.

You know what? I actually think I know which book you're talking about! :-)

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#55034

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 12:35:11 PM UTC-5, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 16:42:39 UTC, Julian Fondren  wrote:
> > And from buying old Forth books on Amazon, what
> > I've mainly discovered is that these books were pretty terrible. Some
> > are actually so bad that I have thoughts like: maybe THIS is why Forth
> > never took off. Maybe this book was on a sales shelf somewhere next to
> > books containing actually readable code.
> 
> You know what? I actually think I know which book you're talking about! :-)

http://exemark.com/FORTH/ChuckMooreBook.pdf

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#55035

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 12:35:11 PM UTC-5, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 16:42:39 UTC, Julian Fondren  wrote:
> > And from buying old Forth books on Amazon, what
> > I've mainly discovered is that these books were pretty terrible. Some
> > are actually so bad that I have thoughts like: maybe THIS is why Forth
> > never took off. Maybe this book was on a sales shelf somewhere next to
> > books containing actually readable code.
> 
> You know what? I actually think I know which book you're talking about! :-)

I wish Jeff Fox had written 10 books.
Esp more about forth linda.

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#55053

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:42:39 PM UTC, Julian Fondren wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 8:00:26 AM UTC-6, JUERGEN wrote:
> > I am quite direct here:
> >
> > 1. It seems the people responsible for this website are not responsible - then it means that they give a **** or are just lazy about their website responsibilities. This is fine for me, but THIS FACT should be made clear to the rest of the Forth community WITH THE RELVANT NAMES CLEARLY SHOWN AND DOCUMENTED.
> >
> 
> http://forth.org/index.html
> 
>   Last updated March 2013. Please submit comments, suggestions, and
>   corrections to the FIG webmaster.
> 
> The last word is a link to a page about Dave Jaffe, which only
> contains his email: dljaffe@stanford.edu
> 
> You can hammer out the acceptable minutes/year of downtime for the
> website, how parties should be informed about any outages, and so on.
> 
> > 2. If Charles Moore, the inventor of Forth does not care, this is his decision, but I WANT IT IN WRITING FROM HIM   not as hearsay.
> >
> > This will mean that he abandons his own invention.
> 
> So far, 100% of human inventions have been abandoned by their
> inventor. I can't think of one improvement made to an invention by its
> inventor a mere hundred years after the first improvement, for
> example. If inventors aren't going to stick around for a few centuries
> at the least, why bother with their works?
> 
> >
> > It seems there is a big grave for Forth data at the moment and nobody is coming to the funeral.
> >
> 
> Archives of GENIE logs are fun and all--I really did enjoy reading
> through them--but they aren't life-essential. Forth's growth doesn't
> depend on anyone's ability to find a decades-untouched shareware
> system for the Amiga. And from buying old Forth books on Amazon, what
> I've mainly discovered is that these books were pretty terrible. Some
> are actually so bad that I have thoughts like: maybe THIS is why Forth
> never took off. Maybe this book was on a sales shelf somewhere next to
> books containing actually readable code.
> 
> Make something new.
> 
> > And the name should be changed from Forth to something like for example Assembly Programming widely improved for Rapid Interactive Software Development  or APRISD in short ( this product name is copyright ExMark )
> 
> Oh, you're joking.

yes, this was joking, the first thing that came to mind, but another name would get rid of all the old baggage.

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#55057

On 2/22/2017 5:43 AM, JUERGEN wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:42:39 PM UTC, Julian Fondren wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 8:00:26 AM UTC-6, JUERGEN wrote:
>>> I am quite direct here:
>>>
>>> 1. It seems the people responsible for this website are not responsible - then it means that they give a **** or are just lazy about their website responsibilities. This is fine for me, but THIS FACT should be made clear to the rest of the Forth community WITH THE RELVANT NAMES CLEARLY SHOWN AND DOCUMENTED.
>>>
>>
>> http://forth.org/index.html
>>
>>   Last updated March 2013. Please submit comments, suggestions, and
>>   corrections to the FIG webmaster.
>>
>> The last word is a link to a page about Dave Jaffe, which only
>> contains his email: dljaffe@stanford.edu
>>
>> You can hammer out the acceptable minutes/year of downtime for the
>> website, how parties should be informed about any outages, and so on.
>>
>>> 2. If Charles Moore, the inventor of Forth does not care, this is his decision, but I WANT IT IN WRITING FROM HIM   not as hearsay.
>>>
>>> This will mean that he abandons his own invention.
>>
>> So far, 100% of human inventions have been abandoned by their
>> inventor. I can't think of one improvement made to an invention by its
>> inventor a mere hundred years after the first improvement, for
>> example. If inventors aren't going to stick around for a few centuries
>> at the least, why bother with their works?
>>
>>>
>>> It seems there is a big grave for Forth data at the moment and nobody is coming to the funeral.
>>>
>>
>> Archives of GENIE logs are fun and all--I really did enjoy reading
>> through them--but they aren't life-essential. Forth's growth doesn't
>> depend on anyone's ability to find a decades-untouched shareware
>> system for the Amiga. And from buying old Forth books on Amazon, what
>> I've mainly discovered is that these books were pretty terrible. Some
>> are actually so bad that I have thoughts like: maybe THIS is why Forth
>> never took off. Maybe this book was on a sales shelf somewhere next to
>> books containing actually readable code.
>>
>> Make something new.
>>
>>> And the name should be changed from Forth to something like for example Assembly Programming widely improved for Rapid Interactive Software Development  or APRISD in short ( this product name is copyright ExMark )
>>
>> Oh, you're joking.
>
> yes, this was joking, the first thing that came to mind, but another name would get rid of all the old baggage.

Hasn't that been tried?  I seem to recall any number of systems that go 
by a name other than Forth-<anything> or <anything>-Forth.

-- 

Rick C

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#55062

Julian Fondren wrote:
> ...
> Archives of GENIE logs are fun and all--I really did enjoy reading
> through them--but they aren't life-essential. Forth's growth doesn't
> depend on anyone's ability to find a decades-untouched shareware
> system for the Amiga.

You might be surprised.  A pre-ANS Amiga JForth provided better f/p
functions that do some commercial ANS systems today.  Those functions
in turn came from an individual not associated with JForth.  The notion
that a standard such as ANS necessarily has the best people with access
to state of art technology is at best an exaggeration and at worst naive.
I couldn't have related this story had JForth not been released as freeware
several years after it was no longer viable as a commercial product.
History (assuming you kept one) shows the path taken is not always
onward and upward.

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